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  #1  
Old May 10th, 2011, 01:11 PM
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Default Libyan OOB errors report

Some corrections for the Libyan OOB

Unit n. 23 T-62MV Units n. 25-26-553 T-72A and units n. 35-36-38 M84
They can be deleted.
As far it can be told M-84s may have been ordered but they were not delivered due to the civil war breaking out in Yugoslavia, T-72As were not exported and no T-62MV upgrade was performed. All that it has been listed and observed have been standard export
T-72/M/M1 variants and vanilla T-55/62.

Units n. 17-18-550-551: T-55A
FC increased to 7
SGMT in slot 2 replaced by weapon n. 64 PKT
Final availability date of units 18-550 extended to 12/2020


Units n. 19-20-552: T-62A
1)Speed reduced to 18
2)FC increased to 7, RF to 8
3)Final availability date of unit n. 20 extended to 12/2020

Unit n. 52 TO-62
It should be deleted, likely never existed and even if so never mass produced/exported


Unit n. 282 BRDM-2 (the one fitted with TI), Unit n. 343 Pantsyr-S1 ,Unit n. 567 S-300PM2, Units n. 31-32 T-72G+ Unit n. 361 VCA Palmaria
They should be deleted
Libya signed a contract with Russia for the overhaul and upgrade of its T-72.Air defense systems and other items were also in the talks. There were plans to modernize the Palmaria SPA. All of this course has been suspended/canceled.

Units n. 74 M113A1, n. 360 Palmaria and n. 357 Gvozdika
Final availability date extended to 12/2020
Actively used in the libyan civil war


Unit n. 63 BTR-60P
It could be overwritten with a standard BTR-60PB

Units n. 104-185 155mm M-114
Initial availability date changed to 1/1965

Unit n. 101 130mm M-46 FG
Initial availability date moved to 1/1975 to match its off map counterpart.

Unit 95 25 Pounder FG
Final availability date extended to 12/1977 to match its off map counterpart

Unit n. 346 12.7 DShK AAMG
Final availability date extended to 12/2020

Unit n. 47 BMP-1
Rearmed with weapon n. 82
Safe bet from they are just using standard ammo.


Units 372-373-374-375-376
Infantry Sec
I suggest antitank weapons to be added
Weapon n. 15 PIAT for unit 372
Weapons 17 Bazooka for units 373-374
Weapon n. 19 RPG-7 for units 375-376

The whole ZPU series of weapons need to be added, with early 70’s - 12/2020 as availability dates .

Formation n. 246 SAM Battery
Final availability date restricted to 3/2011
The fixed SAMs were neutralized.

Unit 93 Carl Gustaf PH
It could be deleted. Some are available to Libyans but it seems to me that its use as an indirect weapon would be “atypical”

Unit 240 Leonidas-2
It should be deleted/overwritten
I have not found any corroboration that it was ever sold to Libya, nor it has shown up in the fighting.
The problem is that it is used as template in several formations: perhaps it could be overwritten with a variant of unit n.65 EE-11 Urutu, which would be the closest thing in actual libyan service.

Unit 217 BRDM-2 Konkurs
Initial availability date changed to 1/1991
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  #2  
Old May 11th, 2011, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: Libyan OOB errors report

Thanks Marcello. I've put all this on the list

Don
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Old May 11th, 2011, 10:41 AM
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Default Re: Libyan OOB errors report

Quote:
Unit 93 Carl Gustaf PH
It could be deleted. Some are available to Libyans but it seems to me that its use as an indirect weapon would be “atypical”
..after watching some of the footage shown I don't think any weapon in Libyan is used "typically" . Also, anything that can fit into the back of a pick up truck WILL be fitted into the back of a pick up truck.

Don
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Old May 13th, 2011, 09:24 AM

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Default Re: Libyan OOB errors report

It great to see the Libya OOB getting a thorough review given recent events in the region.

Are you guys planning to make any kind of formations provision for the presidential guards forces (Khamis/Hamza/Hosban, etc.) and the rebel forces?

Civilian Car/57mm Rocket Pod

Technical/12.7mm HMG
Technical/ZPU1
Technical/ZPU2
Technical/ZPU4
Technical/57mm Rocket Pod
Technical/106mm RR
Technical/82mm RR
Technical/107mm Rocket Launcher

"Hillbilly" Armor Technicals

Molotov Cocktails
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Old May 13th, 2011, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Libyan OOB errors report

The first post covers about two thirds of the changes to the ground units, I am currently working on the second, though it will take some time. The focus is on the units, as it is the most easily verifiable information (pictures, arms deliveries notifications etc.). Formations are a lot harder to find info about and for a place like Libya may not even be worth much effort, I mean what are the odds that Gaddafi's Islamic Pan-African Legion has been run by To&E nazis?

Quote:
Technical/106mm RR
Technical/107mm Rocket Launcher
These two are alredy available, they are called UAZ-106 RCL and
Type 63 SP-MRL.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 02:21 AM
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Fallout Re: Libyan OOB errors report

We don't always agree but you work hard, I respect that. Might just be a starting point but it's here if you want it!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...army-orbat.htm

Regards,
Pat
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Old May 25th, 2011, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: Libyan OOB errors report

Units n. 278-295 BRDM-2
FC increased to 2

Units 28-29 T-72G
Speed and FC lowered to 20
Name changed to T-72M
Unit 29 final availability date extended to 12/2020


Unit n. 220 BTR-152M and unit 341 BTR-152A
Final availability date restricted to 12/1990
I have found no source that lists BTR-152 to have ever been acquired by Libya, even those that optimistically list the BTR-50 as still in active service. That being said given how common it was I would hesitate to delete it and I recommend a 12/1990 cutoff pending further research.

To cover the gap in the self propelled mortar formation unit n. 62 M1064 from OOB 34 Italy should be added. 50 of those were apparently sold to Libya. Final availability date extended to 12/2020

Unit 292 Shorland
- initial availability date changed to 1/1968
- swim and carry capacity rating reduced to zero
- reclassed as class 11 armored car
It was a no frills armored patrol car built on a Land Rover chassis. The early version (the only available for Libya if SIPRI delivery dates are to be believed) had no dismounts capability.
http://www.warwheels.net/ShorlandAPC1index.html

Unit 293 M113A1
Final availability date extended to 12/2020

Unit 296 UAZ-106 RCL
It is classed as an armored car. It could be reclassed as class 21 SP Artillery and given an HE load for indirect fires, the direct fire function already provided by unit 226. To accommodate it formation n. 165 SPA RCL Platoon final availability date could be extended to 12/2020

Units 413-414 Conscripts
LMGs could be added, say maybe weapon n. 22 for unit 413 and weapon n. 25 for unit 414

Unit 425 Engineers
G3 rifle replaced by AK

Unit 233 UAZ-TOW
1)Name changed to UAZ-Milan 3
2)Initial availability changed to date 1/2010
3)Rearmed with weapon n. 162 Milan 3 from OOB 6 France
4)Vision increased to 40
A dismounted Milan 3 unit could be added as well.

Unit 554 T-72G
It should be deleted
As far as it is known the T-72s are concentrated in few “èlite” brigades. The legion was supposed to have T-55s.


Formations 7 Tank Co (FT)
They could be deleted. If one really needs organic flame tanks there is the cross attachment function.

Formation n. 222 Truck Inf Pl
Infantry Sec in slot 4 replaced by an AT Team. According to the few sources available the three squads per platoon is the standard and already used in the other infantry formations in the same timeframe anyway.

Pick up carried pedestal mount for MANPADS should be added
Armed with weapon n. 75 9M338 Igla-S from the Russian OOB



There are a number of “suspect” items (AMX-13, SU-100, BTR40/152, Walid) as well as others that might need to be added but it will take a long time to sort that out.
I might write a further post on aviation units some time down the road, but otherwise this should be it.




Some observations on the rebel side

Rifles
Basic weapon appears to be the FAL and the AK. Some groups appear to be armed mainly or exclusively with one or the other, in others they are mixed. Others weapons have shown up, such as bolt action Carcano, G3 etc. but by and large the FAL/AK seem to predominate near the frontline.

LMG/MMG
FN-LMG/PK seem to predominate, though even old DP-28 with the pan magazine have shown up.

Antitank weapons
RPG-7 seem to be plenty, with even HE rounds available. A few Gustav are also in the mix. More exotic stuff might be available but much rarer.

Heavy weapons
DShK and ZPU are used in large quantities, both on the ground and as technical armament.106mm and others recoilless are used for direct fire and ersatz tube artillery.
The main indirect fire support seem to be provided by pick up MRLS, typically armed with one of the following.
1)four Grad rockets
2) one UB-16 rocket pod
3) a type 63 MRL
The odd captured or assembled (mating a civilian truck to the rocket pack) BM-21 is also present.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 08:49 PM

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Default Re: Libyan OOB errors report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcello View Post
Unit n. 220 BTR-152M and unit 341 BTR-152A
Final availability date restricted to 12/1990
I have found no source that lists BTR-152 to have ever been acquired by Libya, even those that optimistically list the BTR-50 as still in active service. That being said given how common it was I would hesitate to delete it and I recommend a 12/1990 cutoff pending further research.
Unfortunately, a Russian Bronekolektsya book doesn't give a list of all countries using BTR-152 variants in the past, but it doesn't list Libya among users in 1995.

PS - what's interesting, English nor Russian Wikipedia doesn't list Libya among former users of BTR-152.

Michal Derela

Last edited by Pibwl; May 29th, 2011 at 08:54 PM.. Reason: supplemented
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Old May 31st, 2011, 05:51 PM

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Default Re: Libyan OOB errors report

According to Polish sources, Libya also bought light attack variant of Mi-2 helicopter, with 23 mm gun (might be NS-23) and 32 57mm S-5 rockets in 2x16 launchers. Used from around 1982 until ?.

BTW, as for unit 111 WSK Mi-2 - they were bought in mid-1979, but a training took about year. Mid-80 would be a good starting date.

Michal
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Old June 1st, 2011, 05:11 PM

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Default Re: Libyan OOB errors report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcello View Post
I have found no source that lists BTR-152 to have ever been acquired by Libya, even those that optimistically list the BTR-50 as still in active service. That being said given how common it was I would hesitate to delete it and I recommend a 12/1990 cutoff pending further research.
I've just found, that Jane's A&A 2005/2006 lists BTR-152 (and BTR-50, OT-62, OT-64) in Libyan service in 2005/2006. Strange, that they don't mention BTR-60.

Michal

(PS - they however list 2S9 SPM and 152 mm D-20 howitzer under Poland, which never had them.)

Last edited by Pibwl; June 1st, 2011 at 05:15 PM.. Reason: PS
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