.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Air Assault Task Force- Save $7.00
Bronze- Save $9.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPMBT > TO&Es
Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 26th, 2011, 11:21 PM
EOT's Avatar

EOT EOT is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 53
Thanks: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
EOT is on a distinguished road
Default Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

What determines a vehicles size?
1) Weight
2) Length
3) Height
4) Width
5) Class
6) Barrel or weapon size
7) Crew size
8) Something else?

Vehicle sizes range from 2 to 6
Example: Tank Transporter 4 / Tanks 4or5 (Tank Transporter should be 6 or 7)

Most OOB's have many size discrepancies between vehicles and countries with same equipment.

Is their any way of getting a set of rules as a guideline for vehicle size?

This issue is critical to fair game play as size affects spotting and hitting.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old November 27th, 2011, 02:28 AM
Suhiir's Avatar

Suhiir Suhiir is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,596
Thanks: 415
Thanked 668 Times in 507 Posts
Suhiir is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EOT View Post
What determines a vehicles size?
1) Weight
2) Length
3) Height
4) Width
5) Class
6) Barrel or weapon size
7) Crew size
8) Something else?
2) Length
3) Height
4) Width

Quote:
Originally Posted by EOT View Post
Is their any way of getting a set of rules as a guideline for vehicle size?
Read the MOBHACK Help file

"SIZES OF UNITS

INFANTRY:

Size 0: Snipers, FOOs, Scouts, Inf-AT, Inf-SAM (all 5-men or less), MMG & HMG (see section on machineguns)
Size 1: all others

Note the ATGM teams are specifically made easier to spot in the game code because of the large flash and smoke emitted by these weapons.

ARTILLERY - GUN SIZES

Howitzers (on-board ONLY * )

up to 49mm = 0
50mm to 110mm = 1
111 to 150mm = 2
151mm to 215mm =3
216mm to 250mm = 4
250mm to 299mm = 5
300mm + = 6

* Counter battery fire does not use size as a factor for potential damage to off board artillery units. Any size number these units may have is ignored by the game


Infantry Guns and Anti-Tank Guns

up to 70mm = 0
71 to 120mm = 1
121mm to 180mm = 2
181mm + = 3

AA Guns

up to 40mm = 2
41mm to 90mm = 3
91mm + = 4"

Some very small ATV vehicles are size 1 but 99% are size 2+.
If you go thru the OOBs you can get a pretty good idea what size equates to what vehicle type.

There are of course exceptions, some based on OOB designer interpretation others on "common sense". Example : A medium truck with a canvas cover on the bed has a huge cross section ... but shooting holes in the canvas isn't going to bother the vehicle a bit so it's "size" may (and should) be less then it's height x length x width would indicate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EOT View Post
This issue is critical to fair game play as size affects spotting and hitting.
Inconvenient - yes
Annoying - yes
Critical - no (unless the size variations are greater then +/-1)
__________________
Suhiir - Wargame Junkie

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein

Last edited by Suhiir; November 27th, 2011 at 02:57 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old November 27th, 2011, 10:15 AM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 10,847
Thanks: 2,573
Thanked 4,056 Times in 2,024 Posts
DRG will become famous soon enough
Exclamation Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

Vehicle sizes are determined by their size in relation to other pre-existing units. In other words, the OOB designer looks at other tanks roughly the same size and uses that size or makes them one size bigger or smaller based on judgment. Given vehicles are either 1, 2,3,4,5 or 6 in size it is an acceptable system. The problem is when two different people interpret the same unit differently but 1 size either way does not have a serious impact on game play due to the large number of variable factors the game use as noted in Suhiir's post.

That said if Tank X in nation Y is size 4 and the same tank everywhere else is 6 there is a problem that needs addressing and if you have been reading the other threads on this forum you will already know that these issues are being reported and dealt with.

So YES, Length and Height and Width are the main determining factors in choosing a vehicle size but there is not and never will be a mathematical formula devised and used to determine a vehicles size. It's a judgment call and if you are aware of similar units with differing sizes then please do read the Anomaly thread in it's entirety and if there is a unit you know about that has been omitted tell us and we will note it down for investigation. That would be much more useful than blanket statements that "Most OOB's have many size discrepancies between vehicles and countries with same equipment"


Don
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old November 27th, 2011, 02:26 PM

Richard_H Richard_H is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 154
Thanks: 1
Thanked 17 Times in 13 Posts
Richard_H is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

I'm actually saving the tanks themselves until last - I wonder why?

Richard H
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old November 27th, 2011, 03:30 PM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 10,847
Thanks: 2,573
Thanked 4,056 Times in 2,024 Posts
DRG will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

NO idea... maybe it's an assumption ?

I have no doubt you will find some but with over 35,000 units it's more than likely

However, the original post was about vehicles. The example I gave was tanks so unless we are nitpicking the size of a medium truck the tank sizes should be the same

All M48's are
All M60's are
All Abrams are
All T-80's are
All T-72's are
All T-55's are
All Shermans are
All T-34/76's are
All T-34/85's are
All Leopards are

all those tanks are the same size as other tanks by that name so you won't find a Greek Leo 1 a different size than a Canadian one

I'd go on but I have plenty to keep me busy

Don
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old November 27th, 2011, 05:19 PM
EOT's Avatar

EOT EOT is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 53
Thanks: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
EOT is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

Suhiir- I have read the help files and nothing about vehicle size is mention other than SCALE ( Vehicle Icons ) One icon pixel equals six inches.

DRG- I'm sorry if you feel like I'm nitpicking, I'm just bringing up observations of the game for conversation and possibly for future upgrades. I gave an example, how is a tank transporter smaller than a tank?

Some Icons are smaller in size but are rated larger?
Example: Sherman tank vs Challenger tank, M109 vs M1a2
Some Icons are the same but are rated different
Example: Stryker vs Lav3

If their is no affect on game play for vehicle size than disregard my last
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old November 27th, 2011, 06:56 PM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 10,847
Thanks: 2,573
Thanked 4,056 Times in 2,024 Posts
DRG will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

I SPECIFICALLY used "medium truck" as the "nitpicking" example because medium truck is just a unit class name and the "medium truck" used in one OOB could easily be a different overall size than the "medium truck" used in another OOB. There is no 10 commandments of unitclass naming that says "Thou shall always rate this truck size 3 in this unitclass...no more..no less" It's depends on what the OOB designer needed to use it for and what a "medium truck" is in that nation. Yes, GENERALLY they will be all about the same size but more and more people are making these variations out to be far more serious issues than they are.

As to tank transporter.. how tall is the trailer of a tank transporter when it's empty ? 3 feet high ? How big a target is that? We picked a number for those years ago and stuck with it.

The Sherman is a tall tank. We have 6 sizes to choose from and based on it's opponents 5 was decided on as the best size choice all things considered. Should it be 4 ? Thats the same size we use for a Pz IV . A Sherman is a taller target and should be bigger than a Pz IV so it was made 5. We don't have the option of 3.4 or 4.2 it's 1 or 2 or 3, 4, 5 or 6.

M109 vs M1a2---OK WHICH M109 ?? You might make a case the early version should be 5 but not the Paladin

As to stryker vs Lav III one doesn't have a turret, one does. As I've said in other posts these are judgment calls and at some point somebody has to say this crosses the line and should be rated one larger or smaller than something similar and years later yes, it sounds like nitpicking especially when I have buried in work and NONE of these examples even comes close to "Most OOB's have many size discrepancies between vehicles and countries with same equipment" and PLEASE give me nation and unit number of all the "Some Icons are the same but are rated different" units you are aware of and I will make a note to look into it.

Feel free to find issues and report them but keep the comments realistic. I'm not going to pretend there are no problems with some of the numbers. I just discovered that 3/4 of the T-34's in MBT are size 5 and they should be size 4. That is being corrected now.

There are over 35,000 units and each unit in MBT has 68 data fields that could possibly differ and a great number of people have worked on these OOB's over the years so if there are differences I will deal with them but I need specifics not general statements like "Some Icons are the same but are rated different" tell me WHICH ONES.


Don
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old November 27th, 2011, 07:10 PM

Richard_H Richard_H is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 154
Thanks: 1
Thanked 17 Times in 13 Posts
Richard_H is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

Sheer fear at the size of the task

I'll try & remember that bit about the T-34 & leave it out - the last thing I suspect you need is info 3 & 4 times over.

Please excuse my ignorance, but has amybody tried making a vehicle with size greater than 6? I see that hovercraft go up to 17. Hard-coded thing?

Richard H
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old November 27th, 2011, 07:18 PM
EOT's Avatar

EOT EOT is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 53
Thanks: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
EOT is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir View Post
There are of course exceptions, some based on OOB designer interpretation others on "common sense". Example : A medium truck with a canvas cover on the bed has a huge cross section ... but shooting holes in the canvas isn't going to bother the vehicle a bit so it's "size" may (and should) be less then it's height x length x width would indicate.
The size of the truck should not be less because it has canvas. This makes it easier to spot/track and engage. You would engage the target until disabled or destroyed. If your just putting holes in the canvas than your probably using the wrong ammo to begin with.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old November 27th, 2011, 07:19 PM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 10,847
Thanks: 2,573
Thanked 4,056 Times in 2,024 Posts
DRG will become famous soon enough
Default

1-6 is the standard for tanks since SP1
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2021, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.