.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

BCT Commander- Save $8.00
winSPWW2- Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 3: The Awakening

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 17th, 2012, 06:33 AM
Yskonyn's Avatar

Yskonyn Yskonyn is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 190
Thanks: 12
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Yskonyn is on a distinguished road
Default Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

Hi Guys,

I have been a citizen of this community for quite some time, played a few PBEM games of Dom 3, but I have to admit that -eventhough I see the potential fun- I just can't seem to get over the barrier and actually understand the game.

Part of this might be information overload. For example, reading most of the strategy guides posted here assume solid knowledge of the inner workings of the game. They often contain various concepts of play or acronyms/abbreviations that are daunting for a novice player to understand.

The other problem, I find, is the pacing and consequence of playing an MP game right away; if you make a mistake you often get punished in a big way because the other players will take advantage of that. Rightfully so, in a competative setting, of course, but it hampers training.
Additionally you only play 1 turn per game in 24 hours usually, increasing the interval as the game progresses.
This means the pacing is slow and deciding wether some plan you devised worked or not is often difficult or only revealed later on.

A lot of it comes down on information gathering too, I guess. The manual apparently isn't too useful as a reference to what does what even in vanilla, while CBM changes so much it easily overwhelms players like me.

I feel like I am stuck in the middle. There is this hugely appealing game, but how would I properly learn how to play it?

Thank you for your time!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old August 17th, 2012, 06:52 AM
Soyweiser's Avatar

Soyweiser Soyweiser is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,735
Thanks: 272
Thanked 120 Times in 93 Posts
Soyweiser is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

Read the wiki, chat with people on irc .

Ask Calahan to write a guide on the basics. Read the book he then writes.
__________________
I'm acting like a high school girl /\
Bookmark these links:
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/
http://wolfsbane.alwaysdata.net/Spells.html
Test stuff, use the debug mod:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36453
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old August 17th, 2012, 06:55 AM

parone parone is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: southern maine
Posts: 734
Thanks: 61
Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts
parone is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

one thing-don't worry about playing "right". i am an absolutely awful player. but i don't mind that. i play newb games(or did when i had the time), and if i am lucky enough to last to midgame, i get killed as i have no mid game plan.

i suggest you pick one nation, and learn their ins and outs in single player. mess around with them for a week. read a guide or two, and come up with a solid expansion strat with their troops. then look to join a newb game, with that expo strat in mind, and tailor it to your starting position. this way, you are learning to play one phase of one nation, you will have predetiermined research goals, and wont get overwhelmed by too many options.

i find the game is fun if i have a plan and am attempting to execute it. even if it is a lousy plan.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old August 17th, 2012, 08:05 AM
GFSnl's Avatar

GFSnl GFSnl is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 210
Thanks: 26
Thanked 23 Times in 12 Posts
GFSnl is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

Start with MA Caelum.

Recruit Mammoth for expansion.
Research evocation 4 and start casting 'Thunder strike' with you mages.
This is one of the easiest but relative powerful setups for competitive play.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old August 17th, 2012, 01:04 PM

SsSam SsSam is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 81
Thanks: 5
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
SsSam is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

You won't win every game. But try and learn something every game.

I would suggest that a newcomer pick a nation and stick with it in single player mode for a bit. Read all the guides for that nation that you can find. Start several games with several different approaches to your pretender. You won't win all of these. When you DO get off to good starts (12+ provinces at the end of the first year and an idea of what you want to research up to year 3) get into a newbie game. When you die, pay attention to how you died. (Dang, real players play very differently than the computer player) learn from that.

Try another nation.

To me the joy of dominions is precisely trying different things. I have more fun in games that I lose than I do in games where I win. No pressure and I'm free to try things without playing "optimally."

Caelum above works great...http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...61&postcount=1 was my attempt to help others get over the hump.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old August 17th, 2012, 04:56 PM
Yskonyn's Avatar

Yskonyn Yskonyn is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 190
Thanks: 12
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Yskonyn is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

Thank you all for the input so far.
Debate about going MP headfirst and skipping SP altogether have been numerous. I have never really played against the AI because most have advised against it, but after getting stomped early on in three PBEM games I am beginning to doubt this is the right approach.

What usually happened is that I am losing momentum. Losing focus. What is my plan? HOW do I execute it.
The HOW needs you to have a fairly good grasp of the game, which is hard to get diving into a PBEM game for the reasons I outlined in the OP (pacing being the most prevalent).

So I think its best to re-start in SP afterall now.
SsSam, thanks for the link to your rather extensive post. One question, though, was this written for vanilla or CBM?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old August 17th, 2012, 05:58 PM
Fantomen's Avatar

Fantomen Fantomen is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Me a viking
Posts: 1,012
Thanks: 81
Thanked 122 Times in 73 Posts
Fantomen is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

SsSams post is a very nice paractice. It will work fine in CBM, all the ingredients are pretty much unchanged. I would try expanding with the normal troops though, not only hydras. Because that will give you better general practice of battle tactics. Pythiums regular troops are very very good, so that shouldn't be a problem really.

But what really changes strategically as you learn the game is that you gain the ability to envision each specific nations power curve from early to late game, and then make a plan on how to make that power curve as smooth and fast as possible. I understand you agony, because it takes quite a while to get there.

For example:

MA abysias power curve the way I typically envision is: Fire resistant infantry + AOE fire evocations carry the early game, then building critical mass of soul contracts to get devil raiding squads going, then combining that with vampire defence,zmeys and horrors, then use that vamp defence and raiding to shield a blood sac victory, and if that doesn't work to shield me while going for late game blood magic and high level astral spells. Paralel with all that I need to build up some diversity in magic access, but I can afford to neglect some diversity if it favors my overall plan.

That's a reasonably clear vision for a strategy, so what pretender design do I need to execute it? What are the tresholds in research? How many provs and forts do I need in year 1 to lay a base for it? How do I manage to get that number? And how do I manage it all under attack from other nations that won't take any consideration at all to my vision?

All that you need to manage to stand a chance in a game with good players. In a newbie game you can afford a suboptimal plan, but I do believe that a plan is needed. The guides are generally written to provide that kind of plan. As you say they assume basic understanding of the game, but that can only really be gained by playing long enough.

Playing against the AI is alright as basic practice, like expansion and battlefield placement of basic troops. But the problem is that so little of the big plan is needed to win. In the above Abysia example you can just go one or two steps to win against any AI. Since abysian infantry + fire evos combo will kill anything the AI can do you will never be forced to take the other steps, and translated into MP the other players will kill you because that combo is easy to counter for any human player after year 2 or so.

But on the other hand you can challenge yourself by executing the plan against the AI whether it's needed or not, and try to run through the power curve as fast as possible. At what turn can I get 20 provinces? At what turn can I have 25 soul contracts? and so on.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old August 17th, 2012, 06:49 PM
Yskonyn's Avatar

Yskonyn Yskonyn is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 190
Thanks: 12
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Yskonyn is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

Fantomen, I understand what you're getting at. Thank you.
I also understand that a lot of the tactics you might devise -or actually need- are in no way representative of the things you will need to come up with, or taking into account when playing a MP game.
But the fact remains that I feel like standing in the twilight zone by just going for PBEM games alone.
You can only see what to alter, or what not to do if you have a basic foundation of what CAN be done in the first place.
So, playing against the AI might be a good place to begin laying that foundation afterall.

On a lighter note; at least the game still feels fresh after the years I've had it now.

I've been thinking about starting a Let's Play series where I get to learn the game. The community would be able to follow through and provide some advise.
That would become a very powerful tool to learn the game with I reckon.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old August 17th, 2012, 10:52 PM

Valerius Valerius is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,046
Thanks: 83
Thanked 215 Times in 77 Posts
Valerius is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yskonyn View Post
You can only see what to alter, or what not to do if you have a basic foundation of what CAN be done in the first place.
As far as this goes, I recommend setting up test games where you play two or more nations. Maybe there was a certain nation or unit you struggled against in MP or maybe you're not sure what certain spells do - test games can let you run through battles repeatedly, changing things each time around so you can see what works best in different situations.

Admittedly, running test games isn't necessarily the most exciting thing but it can be very useful.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old August 18th, 2012, 06:24 AM

Executor Executor is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Serbia
Posts: 2,245
Thanks: 48
Thanked 84 Times in 46 Posts
Executor is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?

While I agree SP doesn't give much in terms of improving your skills you should not avoid SP completely. SP can only help you so much but it can help, and it's better to learn basics in SP than MP.

Pick a nations that seems appealing to you and stick with it. Some of the more powerful nations like Sauromatia or Neif might be easier for beginners to play with.
Take a good close look at the nation and get familiar with it, what mages you have, troops, summon. What kind of spells you can cast, should you take a bless for your sacreds, etc. Read a guide or two to see the nations weaknesses and strengths, and possibly a pretender build.

Test your nation out in SP. Try a pretender build that just focuses on the early game first (first 30 or so turns).
There will be time enough to learn mid and late game strategies, and that can only be learned trough MP experience while being trashed, no guide or careful planning will help you there.

If you have a weak nation get a strong awake pretender to expand, etc. Your pretender build should be okay once you manage to get around 12-15 province by the end of year one. If you can't do that I suggest revising your pretender build. Since if you can't get that many when you're alone on a map you won't stand a chance in a MP game, probably even with other newbies.

Once you have your nation and a workable build try a SP game against the AI at impossible difficulty. Try a smaller map and don;t give yourself too much space, around 15 provinces per player. If you can win than you're probably ready to get into a newby MP game, if not, than keep practicing.

MP;
Focus on early game like I said, and try to take someone out, anyone. Fighting wars, any kind of wars is best training in MP, especially being on the offensive. If you think you can't take an enemy alone try to get someone to help you with a joint attack. Once you've survived early game try to improvise. You probably won't do very well with forsaking mid-late game strategies but at least you'll survive to mid game and you'll be able to observe how others perform. Try to mimic some tactics and learn a few tricks along the way. (how to place archer decoys, mage placements, raiding and thug tactics, communions,...)

If you're really having trouble with competitive MP games, than just ask for help or directions. I'm sure there's a lot of people who would be willing to take a look at your turn and give you some advice.

Some more advice from me for MP. Mages and spells are what the game is about. If you don't recruit a mage every turn and invest in research heavily you don't stand a chance. Site searching is very important. Site search as soon as you can everything you can. Recruit spies. For some reason newbs don't really like to make spies but trust me they are a very important part of the game. Build them in every indie province you find them in every turn. Troops and brute force is useful up until turn 30 at most, after than it's all about magic and gems. Get additional forts and start pumping out more mages as soon as you can. Don't spend money on troops when you don't need them, saving for mages and forts is better if you're not in war, and sometimes even than.
Diplomacy can be very helpful to new players. Try to get an ally or at least NAP with everyone except a player you plan to attack.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Executor For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.