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  #71  
Old March 20th, 2022, 05:35 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Poland OOB

One more confirmation of Rosomak squad - a picture that was posted recently on one fb group about Polish military. There was also posted an information, that squads really have 5 men, with an option for 6th man from reserve forces... Of course, we should stick with a bigger number.
(Just to explain, the first vehicle has 7 men, with platoon commander and radio operator. "Załoga" is a crew.)

There are no snipers in a platoon indeed, they can be assigned from company level.
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  #72  
Old March 23rd, 2022, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Pibwl, as far as I know - and I just asked a friend serving there :P - they do train combat with 6 dismounted men, but in administrative practice 6th guy should be coming from NSZ (Narodowe Siły Rezerwowe - like quasi National Guard) assets.

Don't ask me why, but theoretically dismounts could be 6 or 7 men, as Squad Leader may elect to dismount with his troops instead of manning the Rosomak command.
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  #73  
Old March 23rd, 2022, 08:12 AM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Meanwhile, random topic change from Ukraine matters - let's head back to the '80s

PART 1/2

I have recently stumbled at this very decent T-55 upgrades article by people who clearly know how it all works:
http://opisybroni.pl/t-55am-merida/

I am not sure if Google Translate will do, so let me roughly translate fragments that are of meaning to me (and honestly, I should have translate it all!):

Quote:

In order to increase protection, the T-55AM tank was given a passive additional up-armouring in the upper hull, sides and bottom.
(...)
Additional armor weighting 800 kg (...) consisted of: welded additional plate of actual 30mm thickness, behind which there were four 5mm thick steel plates, placed inbeetwen from each other every 23mm. The spaces between them were filled with polyurethane providing an additional armour structure. The angle placement of main plate of 30mm thickness resulted in doubling its effective armor capacity against direct hits. Angle placement of further 5mm plates increased protection for each to 15mm.
(...)
Such placement resulted in such an effect, that in case of direct frontal hit the armour penetrator - after making way through 30mm plate was meeting further plates of further 45mm thickness.
(...)
Thus, against kinetic penetrator munitions (monoblocks 100mm, SABOT, APFSDS etc.) the armor of the upgraded area has improved from 200mm to circa 305mm of steel armor. In case of a HEAT round hit, thanks to several layers as well as filling between those responsible for disrupting shaped charge effect reached the effective protection of 450mm equivalent of steel armor.
(...)
Real thickness of the additional armor was 150mm, what summed up with real thickness of original armor let to the increase of real armor from 100mm to 250mm - and effective one from 200mm to about 500mm.


Additional up-armoring of the turret was designed comparably. (...)
Placing and shapes of external up-armoring, its structure and the main armor of the turret (the latter one of effective armor of 235mm). In the areas up-armored the addons and base frontal armor provided a total effective armor efficiency of 400mm - against kinetic rounds - and circa 450-460mm against shaped charges.

However, in the frontal areas of the turret right by the gun sleeve and PKT co-axial machinegun window the total efficiency was diminished to about 305mm of steel armor efficiency against all sorts of rounds.


For the better protection of the sides, the T-55AM was supplied with side skirt rubber armor of 10mm thickness. Field testing proved that thanks to said upgrade there was a reduction of penetrating effect on the main armor - depending on the type of shaped charge round - starting from 27% (artillery round 3BK5M, 100mm calibre) to 48% (PG-7VM RPG round)
Actually it is worth to note what the authors write at the end - where they compare the armor protection to western weapons of the ERA, still falsely assuling that TOW penetration capability was at 600mm which we today know - is false:

Quote:

A similar situation regarded the shaped charge munitions, which by the time the modernization was underway reached a penetration of 600mm, resulting in obsolescence of the urmor upgrades against such threats, as the protection against such threats allowed protection of only up to 450mm.

Summary:
- Effective protection of T-55AM - including polish T-55 "Merida" upgrade - should be actually higher than it currently is;
- One needs to think what to do with a gun sleeve area that was an obvious weak spot in protection;
- Current T-55 Merida in-game effective protection is:
Steel hull: 28cm
Steel turret: 33cm
Anti-HEAT hull: 33cm
Anti-HEAT turret: 35cm

Thus, probably should be:
Steel hull: 30cm
Steel turret: 35cm (this includes the weakspot, otherwise about 40cm)
Anti-HEAT hull: 45cm
Anti-HEAT turret: 45cm or about 40cm (including the weak spot?)

- What could be done with side armor? Increase anti-HEAT to about ~17cm to increase the work of angled shots with those rubber skirts?
- Said update was quite universal - it should probably be applied not only to Merida, but all other T-55AM upgrades, mostly the DDR one and Czech Kladivo program;
- The general idea is that it seems upgraded T-55s had the possibility to actually fend off TOW strikes (mean standard TOW, not I-TOW or TOW-2). I believe it should be reflected in the game, but not without taking the weakspot into account;

- Note on the side: about 650 polish T-55s were brought up to this standard, but formally only three divisions were listed with this tank. In other words, even in 1989 the T-55M and T-55U should technically still be available for Poland as line tanks, not just reserve ones as they are now;
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  #74  
Old March 23rd, 2022, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

PART 2/2

Now, the same articles I mentioned in the previous post also does touch the idea of ammunition used in polish T-55 upgrade:

Quote:

Compared to T-55AM tanks modernized and used in the Soviet Army, the tanks in Polish service were not provided with most modern types of ammunition - both kinetic as well as shaped charge one (HEAT).

For example, the Polish "licensee" was not provided with 3UBM11 SABOT rounds as well as 3BM25 fin stabilized rounds, able to penetrate 280mm from 2000 metres and 300mm armor from 100 metres (angle 90). Polish-operated 3UBM8 rounds with 3BM20 munitions penetrating ability was lower by about 40mm from the same angle and distance.

[so 24cm on 2000m and 26cm on 1000m]

Same applied to HEAT rounds. Polish tanks were supplied with 3UBK4M rounds with 3BK5M munitions with about 390mm penetration which were used in the Soviet Army from 1962, while Soviet Tanks stocks were long upgraded with 3UBK9 and 3UBK9M with corresponging 3BK17 and 3BK17M munitions with greater penetrating ability. Polish tanks were not integrated with 9M117 barrel launched ATGMs at all.
- Many tanks in the game are armed with "100mm D10TG 79" weapon, that seems to be comparable and proper choice for this set of rounds
- More modern Soviet rounds relied on better flight stabilization rather than increased penetration. Thus perhaps if you wished to include such a change, the gun accuracy should be improved, but not penetration data
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  #75  
Old March 23rd, 2022, 06:33 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

As for T-55AM Merida you're probably right, I didn't want to research details there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

There appeared recently new modern Piorun SAM - a development of Grom (formerly Grom-M), delivered from 2019. It is said, that accuracy and target detection have been much improved, to world's best level - although Grom has already accuracy 130, and I don't know if any MANPADS in the game is better than 130. Range was enhanced to 400-6500 m. The launcher is fitted with TI sights.
Many good words were recently said about Piorun, concerning its usage in Ukraine. There is an opinion among experts (Polish ones though), that it might be the most advanced MANPADS at the moment, with effective homing head algorithms and advanced decoy selection. There are pre-programed modes, optimized for aircraft, UAV and misiles, and for weather conditions. Reportedly no other MANPAD have proximity fuze, which Piorun has. During trials it destroyed 57 mm S-5 rockets.
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  #76  
Old March 27th, 2022, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
One more confirmation of Rosomak squad - a picture that was posted recently on one fb group about Polish military. There was also posted an information, that squads really have 5 men, with an option for 6th man from reserve forces... Of course, we should stick with a bigger number.
(Just to explain, the first vehicle has 7 men, with platoon commander and radio operator. "Załoga" is a crew.)

There are no snipers in a platoon indeed, they can be assigned from company level.
So....... 5 men... maybe 6 but 7 in the first vehicle

so maybe 22 --- maybe 25 ( maybe )

What is in my OOB now, and that is a formation with 3 Rosomaks and one BWP that includes a 60mm mortar and 40mm AGL for the BWP is ( excluding the vehicle crews ) a troop count of 26 in all four vehicles.

Be happy with that. If not, use MOBHack to adjust your OOB however you like once the update is released ( whenever that might be )
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  #77  
Old March 30th, 2022, 01:42 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post

So....... 5 men... maybe 6 but 7 in the first vehicle
I'd go just with 6 men in each.
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  #78  
Old March 30th, 2022, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

You're getting what I said your getting in #77
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  #79  
Old April 11th, 2022, 01:15 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

http://www.the-monitor.org/en-gb/rep...an-policy.aspx

Quote:
The Republic of Poland has not acceded to the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Poland’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has regularly responded to Cluster Munition Monitor’s request for updated information since 2009. In its most recent response, provided in April 2017, Poland states that it is “currently not in a position to join the convention,” but “recognizes the humanitarian problems caused by [cluster munitions]” and expresses its “support for the humanitarian cause.” Poland repeats its position that the “adoption of the CCM’s [Convention on Cluster Munition’s] obligations would mean a serious weakening of [the country’s] defence capabilities, which is not acceptable in the light of the deteriorated security environment.”

we recognize the right of states to use modern, highly reliable cluster munitions for defence purposes.”
There are no Hvy Cluster arty or air in the Polish OOB past 2010. ( there still is 98mm mortar cluster )

This has now been "corrected" Hvy arty Cluster and air is now back to 2025 end date
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  #80  
Old April 11th, 2022, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

A reminder on which countries have signed the convention on cluster munitions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conven...Convention.svg
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