Mods to use!

[DennisS]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

On the subject of strategy guides:
Ive seen complaints. But something to keep in mind is that we dont have guides the way other games have guides. We dont have step-by-step instructions that will work every time and get you to the place it says. The game is just too variable for that. Whether you consider that to be a good thing or a bad thing is point of view. Personally, if we DID have such guides then I dont think this would be the game that has lasted for years on my machines.

But I do wish every Dom3 strategy guide had a tiny print disclaimer at the bottom
"NOTE: Tested in (solo or mp) with xxxxx mods, on a ##-per-player province ratio,
and only if not starting next to xxxxxxxx nation"

I was a weather forecaster for 30+ years. I understand variables...as that is essentially what I did. I assigned a weight to a variable, applied a few mathematical constants, and guessed.

Also, I also understand that with 2000+ unit types, and 700+ spells, you are never going to get the same game twice in a row.

I tried to determine how many different types of race possibilities there would be in a large game, and gave it up. Billions.

[Gandalf Parker]

Heehee. This game is going to drive you nuts if you try statistical analysis.

OK this is what you do as Ulm for the first few turns, but of course thats
IF you are middle age
IF you took a cyclops pretender with 9 earth and 9 nature
IF the other scales are standard
IF you dont start within 5 provinces of the following nations.....
IF you dont start within 10 provs of these other nations...
IF these 2 nations arent in the game at all
and of course if no game-altering mods were in use
And even if all of those factors are exactly the same as my test game there is still no guarantee that my suggestions will come anywhere close to giving you the same results. There is always the infamous DRN

OR on the other hand you might be in heaven like some other people.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=38714

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

But I do wish every Dom3 strategy guide had a tiny print disclaimer at the bottom
"NOTE: Tested in (solo or mp) with xxxxx mods, on a ##-per-player province ratio,
and only if not starting next to xxxxxxxx nation"

Don't they? At least the good ones. Not a formal note at the bottom, but I've very rarely been confused. I simply assume that strategy guides are for MP on 10-15 province/player maps.

If they mention CBM, or rely on features from CBM, they won't work in vanilla, otherwise they'll work in either. I've never seen one that relied on mods other than CBM without being explicit about it.

Guides for MP will work in SP. SP guides are either called out as such or ripped apart in the comments. Solo guides also tend to be written by excited new players, who'd be least likely to know about any guidelines anyway. If they made it explicit they'd get less hassle in the comments, I suppose.

No one writes guides for the extremely large games you sometimes play. Very few if any rely on small (~5 prov/player) maps. I'm curious to know of an example of a guide that you think wouldn't work with any of the standard 5/10/15 sizes. Those that warn of problems being rushed are already hinting at problems with smaller maps.

Seems to me that most notes would look the same
"Tested in mp (with CBM), on a (10-15+)-per-player province ratio"


As for "only if not starting next to x nations", are you really claiming it's necessary to test each strategy starting next to every possible other nation in mp? And probably against multiple strategies for each nation. No one does that. No one is going to do that. Usually, in a good guide, you get strategies for expansion, counters for the basic types of rushes and suggestions for the mid and late games. Focusing on what the nation usually has trouble with. You can't get more specific than that, because games vary so much.
I understand the rock/paper/scissors thing and some nations/strategies do have advantages against others, but there's a lot of flexibility as well. You have to be able to adapt, that's why the game keeps its appeal.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by thejeff

No one writes guides for the extremely large games you sometimes play. Very few if any rely on small (~5 prov/player) maps. I'm curious to know of an example of a guide that you think wouldn't work with any of the standard 5/10/15 sizes. Those that warn of problems being rushed are already hinting at problems with smaller maps.

I probably should check my own and comply with my own suggestion before someone else hits me on it.

Seems to me that most notes would look the same
"Tested in mp (with CBM), on a (10-15+)-per-player province ratio"

Since most of the guides here are for mp I guess that would make sense.

As for "only if not starting next to x nations", are you really claiming it's necessary to test each strategy starting next to every possible other nation in mp? And probably against multiple strategies for each nation. No one does that.

Oh god no. That was totally separate. More of an example of taking things with a grain of salt. No matter how good a guide is, there is a long list of variables which can affect the outcome.

I understand the rock/paper/scissors thing and some nations/strategies do have advantages against others, but there's a lot of flexibility as well. You have to be able to adapt, that's why the game keeps its appeal.

I totally agree. This was just abit of a rant. In IRC I see jokes telling new players to be sure and use theNiefelheim guide on the wiki everytime its chosen in an mp game. They feel it sucks, but dont bother noting that its an SP guide.
Or they complain about Baalz guides being too optimistic and getting them killed.

Im with you. I stress that the guides are at best a list of tactics that work for one person in some games. They are meant to be added to the toolbox, not followed as a cheat-sheet. IMHO

One of my earliest Dom3 sigs says
"There cannot be a strategy guide for Dominions 3.
There are too many nations and too many options within each nation. There would have to be a Strategy Set of Encyclopedias. And even that would fall short."

[Verjigorm]

A good strategy guide contains a diverse battery of tactics that can be used as a general guideline for available 4 and 5-star strategies. Just because it doesn't work in all cases doesn't mean that you should "take it with a grain of salt".

A strategy guide is more like the road map than the path you actually follow to get to your destination. There are lots of ways to get from one place to another, but until you know where you are, where you're going, and what's in between, you can't pick which roads to use.

[llamabeast]

[quote=Gandalf Parker;752593]

Originally Posted by thejeff

I probably should check my own and comply with my own suggestion before someone else hits me on it.

I didn't know you had any strategy guides Gandalf. Do you have some links?

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by DennisS

Thanks guys...this is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

I have the demo, and am busy playing the four factions available...up to game number 9 at this point, having got my backside handed to me each time.

Sure...yuck it up! I really don't have a strong clue on how to set up my pretender, or how to use the forces tactically.

Well...I will say that I looked at the wiki, and read just about everything there, except the 2100+ unit descriptions. That helps.

It does take some time to learn how dominions works and become able to achieve your first win over the normal AI. Don't be too embarrassed if it takes a while. Your first win will probably come as one of the traditional power races, probably using a bless strategy. I think it is at around the time that you get your first win that things start to really click.

[thejeff]

It's pretty common here for people to bash the AI, claiming it's completely worthless and doesn't put up any challenge.
And it's both true and not true.

The AI is pretty competent at the things AIs do well. It can usually expand and build up big armies and attack you with them. This can be quite challenging, particularly with higher difficulty AIs and in the early game, where you don't have a lot of flexibility in beating big armies.
The problem is, the AI is basically a one-trick pony. And this is a complex game. There are counters for everything. And counters for the counters. And so on. The AI doesn't look at your strategy and adapt to it. So once you figure out how to beat big armies, you only have to tweak that strategy slightly to beat anything the AI sends at you.

Essentially you beat big armies with meat shields and mage artillery or with SCs. Particularly the latter. Once you can field single units that can't be hurt by sheer numbers, the AI loses.

[Bonfire]

The better independents mod found here is an absolute must if you want the AI to do more than throw hordes of indie chaff at you past the early part of the game.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

I totally agree. This was just abit of a rant. In IRC I see jokes telling new players to be sure and use theNiefelheim guide on the wiki everytime its chosen in an mp game. They feel it sucks, but dont bother noting that its an SP guide.

You may wish to specify which IRC channel you're referring to. The IRC channel associated with this forum and Dom3mods forum, ie, the one someone might expect you to be referring to, is not the channel you're talking about.

That's the Goon's IRC channel, i believe. Which is associated with a different forum entirely.