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  #61  
Old January 30th, 2023, 10:38 PM
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Fallout Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

Not playing games I don't like you have the time for such "childish things" if everything had worked out as I wanted, I would've got this to you much sooner but, they didn't and it's "crunch time" I get it.

I will continue the work in the background, and post what I have when I'm done.

Life is a circus and like you I feel like a "Juggler" as well.

Besides with CINCLANTHOME's help we dug a lot of holes and moved a bunch of dirt and the Azelia bush's we planted, and the backyard are looking really good right now. Always good to be outside and once in a while it's good to get some dirt between your fingers with an "honest" sweat.

Regards,
Pat
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  #62  
Old January 31st, 2023, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

Pat , just one question for now in regards to "HOWEVER, M2A2 with full armor package it has PROTECTION against RPG's and 30mm AP ALL AROUND and the refs pretty much concur with this evaluation."


"full armor package" as in BUSK values?
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  #63  
Old January 31st, 2023, 02:05 PM
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Fallout Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

Actually, I was really looking hard at M2A3+ BRADLEY UNIT 065 to fit the bill for M2A2 BRADLEY ODAS.

1st The timing of UNIT 065 matches perfectly for the introduction of the M2A2 ODAS.

2nd You have to keep in mind that the ODAS was a TRANSITIONAL BRADLEY from what came before it (i.e., UNITS 063 M2A1 & 064 M2A2 (Note END date DEC 1996-which also fits the timeline for ODAS introduction.)

3rd And obviously it would act as the bridge to the M2A3.

4th When we built the "BUSK" the "BEAST" it is as it should be but, too much for the ODAS. Also consider this picture or similar for our BUSK units. But more importantly might act a reminder of what it looks like compared to the existing pictures.
Click image for larger version

Name:	M2A3 BRADLEY BUSK III.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	67.3 KB
ID:	16823

5th Concerning UNIT 686 ODAS-E it already has the same armor (With exception of the shovel HEAT HF.) as UNIT 065 M2A3+ w/o ERA (ADD).

Whether UNIT 065 meets that "ALL AROUND" RPG & 30mm protection I'm not sure but, I think it's close?

Time to ready for you know what.

Regards,
Pat
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  #64  
Old January 31st, 2023, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

Pat.

The definition of "ALL AROUND" RPG & 30mm protection " needs to be defined precisely specifically the "RPG" part but also the 30mm because in the previous post it was 30mm AP

The 30mm cannon used by the BMP in service now has an 8 AP pen and a 10 Sabot pen and if we use USA unit 65 as the base it fails the all-around 30mm test on the hull sides and rear *IF* sabot is considered. If it is only AP that is then it passes and what I now have on the Ukrainian version ( USA unit 65 minus the ERA )

Then it gets more "complicated" with "RPG"........ if "RPG" is considered RPG-7 then 65 does not pass the all-around test and if "RPG" includes the RPG-28 then even the M1A2C-THV doesn't pass as you need >90 to beat that thing

This is reportedly a photo of some of the Brads being shipped..



There is NO reactive armour on those ( not to mention the first thing that need to happen when they arrive is a coat of green paint ) and note the side armour on those does not match the thickness o the side armour on the photo used for unit 65 though the icon used for 65 might be closer than the one I'm using now

The ones being loaded look more like this


and this....

is one of the photos used in this article
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and..._get-5370.html
( and the one I am using now for Ukraine

Which, I might be wrong, is what an ERA equipped one looks like without the ERA blocks

So MAYBE the blocks are being shipped crated to be installed there or the Ukrainian are going to apply their own ERA or this is what they get..... we don't know and as usual all we can do is guess and my "guess" is what I have now and is unit 65's armour package minus ERA and the ODS FC+5 is "good enough" until hard data is released and if I were the US or Ukrainian Military I wouldn't want that exact knowledge known
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  #65  
Old January 31st, 2023, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

And look what else I found

https://www.dvidshub.net/news/419151...rnized-bradley

Quote:
FORT STEWART, Ga. – The “Hound Battalion,” 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 2nd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division, is the first unit to complete field-level maintenance and operator new equipment training on the modernized M2A4 Bradley Fighting Vehicle
and what that write up says is

Quote:
Front arc of the M2A4 withstands 30 mm armor-piercing rounds. All-round protection is likely to be against 14.5 mm armor-piercing rounds.
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  #66  
Old February 1st, 2023, 04:11 AM
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Fallout Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

I'm fine with that for UNIT 065 for ODS. Also correct on ERA. M2A3 standard package? .

Yeah ODS NOT ODAS.

Also went back to my refs and re-read them it appears from them those protection levels were due to solely a new armor package ODS and early subsequent versions received. From the below ref.

Design and Protection

"The protective cover was omitted from the M240C machine gun and a semicircular shield was attached to the turret rear to add more stowage space as well as act as spaced armor. These armor and internal improvements have resulted in an increase in weight for the Bradley from 25 to 33 tons. The new armor protects the Bradley against 30 mm APDS rounds and RPGs (or similar anti-tank weapons) . The infantry squad was increased again to seven men, six of which sat facing each other on two 3-man benches in the passenger compartment. The seventh man sat just behind the driver like in the M2 or M2A1 seating arrangements. "
https://www.armyrecognition.com/unit..._pictures.html


ORIGINAL M2A2 BACKGROUND

"M2A2, developed in 1988. This variant was fitted with an uprated Cummins VTA-903-T600 engine, developing 600 hp. Vehicle has a strengthened suspension and improved armor protection. Firing ports were removed (M1A0/1 feature.) from the hull sides due to the added armor panels. Add-on explosive reactive armor blocks could be fitted for protection against anti-tank rockets and missiles. Hull floor was reinforced with steel plates for improved protection against mines. Interior was lined with spall-liner. Front arc of the M2A2 withstands hits from 30 mm armor-piercing ammunition. All-round protection was against 14.5 mm heavy machine gun fire. Due to significantly increased weight this vehicle ended up being underpowered. Maximum road speed was just 56 km/h. Unrefueled range reduced to 400 km. Off road mobility was also negatively affected. Some sources report that delivery of the Cummins VTA-903-T600 engine began in 1991. By 1999 Cummins had delivered well over 11 000 engines for the upgraded Bradleys and various versions of this vehicle."
https://www.military-today.com/apc/m2_bradley.htm
(Also supports CARRY 7.)

Then ODS came along ten years later. Armor applications in that time frame would've reached a level of generational change.

I knew I had some issues with BRADLEY in general which started showing up during the ABRAMS revisions. I started to think just like I found with ABRAMS in some cases, we're looking at game legacy issues with BRADLEY as well. It's REALLY starting to look as though the ARMOR values are too low.

We have absolutely no need to worry the M2A4 at this time. It's now OPEVAL time SOP for USA just like M1A2C and look how long that's lasted.


Didn't want anyone to think I pulled this info out of my hole(s) I dug in the backyard on Monday.

BRADLEY is on my back burner, except for ODS we're sending them to Ukraine. Also seems ODS is what Lebanon was also sent so we might have some further ramifications to deal with LATER.

My Priorities based on current information I have, are Export K2 and LEOPARD 2A7 versions.

From before last year, in the last patch we took a stop gap measure for Jordan and added the UAE LeClerc.

However, now I need to try to build two UAE modernization project LeClerc tanks that were done to the original. The newest one of those is what the UAE sent to Jordan.

The other thing I need to do is say GOOD MORNING NIGHT!

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; February 1st, 2023 at 04:18 AM..
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  #67  
Old February 1st, 2023, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

GB is sending AS90 and FV432's along with the Challengers and they will reportedly be active before mid 2023

We'll see but for now I have used a 6/23 for all three

Also, read GB has thousands of Ukrainians in training in Britain so they *may* roll off the boat ready to go

Again......we'll see......

....and Germany is sending mineclearing tanks

one report

Ukraine Receives Military Equipment To Counter Russia’s Expected Surge In Landmine Usage
https://www.forbes.com/sites/vikramm...h=13e76db14f7a
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  #68  
Old February 1st, 2023, 12:31 PM
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Fallout Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

Posted last week in MBT Thread about Germany sending 4 mine clearing tanks. MBT Thread for that.

Also last week posted article that UK goal is to train 20,000 Ukrainian soldiers this year. As you might remember I subscribe to the Australian MOD "ARMY NEWS" this week's edition reported their top performing unit (Based on Army wide yearly competition.) is sending a large contingent to assist in that training process which should be on the ground now. Canada already has a unit there for the same.

I use ARMY NEWS to track equipment issues as they report on then regularly so that in mind BOXER LANCER is still in IOC which it accomplished in OCT. 2022. Was a big help with M1A1 ABRAMS leading up to arrival etc. Paper was recommended to me when I made successful contact MOD as you might remember (Posted the emails as well I believe, still have them if needed.) to also answer "someone's" question concerning Vietnam era tank T0&E.

MOD was very helpful UNLIKE the French MOD!?!

EDIT: German Mine clearing engineering tank posted on JAN 15 Post #1467 MBT Thread. Going for my walk now.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; February 1st, 2023 at 12:40 PM..
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  #69  
Old February 1st, 2023, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: Ukraine OOB New and Old Toys

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post
Posted last week in MBT Thread about Germany sending 4 mine clearing tanks. MBT Thread for that.


Yeah you did ....it was the lead into a huge post about the AMX which is what mainly concerned me the Keiler it got lost and forgotten about and YES IT's IN THE GERMAN OOB and has been since April 2015 and now it's in the Ukraine OOB as well

Sometimes too much information is counterproductive and I have 39,591 (and counting...) units in MBT alone to deal with
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