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  #41  
Old September 5th, 2010, 01:06 PM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

As regards any troop carrying Merkavas.

We have to take cognisance of the fact that this capability is a 'party trick' that is in reality only of use in very special circumstances in the real world.

Now - should we make a merkava as an APC class, wargamers would simply stop buying namer etc APC as there would be "no need for these". But the Israelis are still building APCs, even ones based on the merkava chassis. So there must be some "need" for such in the real world.

All videos I have seen of any such deployment of infantry from merkavas shows only troops in belt equipment order. No packs, no sign of any heavy weapons (LMG, AT weaponry etc). In other words - there is little or no room for anything else other than personal weapons in the tunnel of the thing.

No doubt the infantry cannot carry any useful load when sardine-canned in there. They probably have to be very good friends with each other too !. The game does not however, have any fatigue levels to apply to such a sardine pack after some rough country crossing.

We could make a "merkava dismount team" with reduced ammo, no heavy weaponry etc to reflect the light belt order - but if they were 8 or 9 men, then the wargamers would naturally ignore those units and stuff in para squads, rifle sections etc. to make up the carry capacity of 8 or 9 as the game has no way to limit the infantry carried. Wargamers will exploit any loophole they can.

I think that at the best, a carry of 4 would be the most I would ever credit them with. Maybe 6 to alow sayret scouts (sp). That would allow a scout team or a bailed tank crew. An APC class to allow the protected flag to be set, so they don't get hosed off the back deck by MG fires. And then merkavas would need to be in another unit class from the MBTs (or umpteen duplicated APC slots would be needed). The AI also handles APCs differently from MBT (it will probably scarf up any loose scouts, inf-at etc and load them into such "APC"). It will drop and retire these (maybe good, maybe expose their rear ends) and attempt to shuttle troops with them. APCs are not tanks to the AI!.

There would also be no formations of merkava (APC) with integral infantry though - any pax would be random pick-ups. The tank units don't command the dismounts.

But firstly kevineduguay1 - go to tanknet (http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?act=idx) and set up an account there and post a question on the practicalities of the merkava's alleged dismount capability in the AFV forum there. I'll monitor the response from the experts. I'm more interested in what they have to say than some amateur enthusiast's website.

Should they think it is in some way practical, then we can think about it for the next patch.

Cheers
Andy
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  #42  
Old September 5th, 2010, 03:43 PM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

DRG,

Sorry about that. Almost if not all quotes are from the site I posted on page 1 of this thread. Most are on the opening page and some are contained in the links on that page.

Mobhack,

On real World need,

Durring the Lebanon conflicts the Israelis had no real heavy APCs that could stand up to the huge amount of RPGs and ATGMs operated by the enemy. The 113s, Pumas, and Achzarit could have hardly been expected to stand up to such weapons without loosing many men and vehicles. At this time the Namer was only a dream. You still need infantry to cover your tanks, even the mighty Merkava has its limits. The solution was loading the infantry into the Merkava. They could ride to where they were needed under the heavy armor of these tanks, deploy where needed, and have the advantage of having a MBT for supporting fire.

If you look at the pic on the site I posted most if not all the troops have some sort of backpack. It's not the size of the one carried by U.S. troops but is there none the less. One pic is a view from inside showing 4 soldiers on the way out and they all have packs on.
Maybe no LMG but a SAW for sure. I have already made clear that no TOW teans, Dragons, Spikes, Or Javalins should be carried inside the Merkava. A LAW size weapon would be no problem. Besides with a MBT for fire support what do you need anti-tank weapons for?
Yes they are packed in tight. As much was said on the site I mentioned above.

Merkava dismount teams,

No real need for these. In my experiments I use a Sayeret section and add a sniper or two. This will have to be up to the individual player as it is in real life. But only 8 men and no heavy weapons. Carry capacity 8.

Class,

I classed mine as Unit Class 127 Gun APC but have not experimented with the AI useing the Merkava with this classification. And like you mentioned this could be a problem for the AI.

Formations,

I did not put any infantry in my formations either. Again this should be up to the player. Some sort of Merk Infantry formation may be nessessary for the AI to use. This would be quite the experiment.

I have registered at Tanknet and will ask the question to see what comes up.

The author of the Amateur site I posted is an Israeli tanker. His tank is the "Black Mamba" a MkIV. Pictures of his tank and crew are also on the site.

Hope I covered everything. I'll get the question posted on Tanknet.
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  #43  
Old September 5th, 2010, 05:17 PM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

Did'nt get clearence to post on tanknet yet but found this video link to Youtube. enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvj_A6BgeU
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  #44  
Old September 8th, 2010, 08:44 AM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

This and the above videos show troops leaving the rear compartment from a view inside the tank. First man out has a LMG, last man out has a radio set. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI-d8RuPnDo


Still no word from Tanknet. Im registered but can't post.

Last edited by kevineduguay1; September 8th, 2010 at 09:03 AM..
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  #45  
Old September 8th, 2010, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: Merkava.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevineduguay1 View Post
This and the above videos show troops leaving the rear compartment from a view inside the tank. First man out has a LMG, last man out has a radio set. Enjoy!
No seat and you can't stand either, being confined for prolonged lenght of time in such a fashion has been used as a form of light torture in the past. Any cross country movement along broken terrain will be a preview of hell.
I can see the value of that for driving 300 meters up to the next building while every Ahmed in town is taking pot shots with a RPG-7.
Using it as a regular APC? Forget about it.
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  #46  
Old September 8th, 2010, 04:02 PM

Marek_Tucan Marek_Tucan is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

A sad Merkava-related not:
Maj. General Israel Tal died today, a week before his 86th birthday.
May he rest in peace.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...951557,00.html
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  #47  
Old September 8th, 2010, 04:22 PM

Marek_Tucan Marek_Tucan is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

Kevin, you yourself write, that the reason Merks were used as ad hoc APCs in 82 was that Israel had no heavy APCs back them. IOW emergency use and in pretty limited conditions - for example less need to fire main gun, during city fighting usually commander's and loader's MG were enopugh etc, even if main gun is used ammo consupmption is pretty low so you do not need the hull ammo storage etc.
Design of proper HAPCs (and even Achzarit does not AFAIK carry a full squad's worth of dismounts) of course seriously lessened the need.
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  #48  
Old September 8th, 2010, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Merkava.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan View Post
A sad Merkava-related not:
Maj. General Israel Tal died today, a week before his 86th birthday.
May he rest in peace.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...951557,00.html


RIP is a truely great armor leader and creator of the Israeli armour doctrine which led to the Israeli successes in the Sinai in the Six Day War.
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  #49  
Old September 9th, 2010, 12:52 AM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

Maj. General Israel Tal had a hand in the development of two other tanks, the XMBT-70 and the M1 Abrams. A true visionary.
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  #50  
Old September 9th, 2010, 01:11 AM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

Marek-Tucan,

While the Israelis use this tactic in the 1982 conflict it was not as wide spread as in the 2006 conflict.

As far as the game is concerned the longest scenario is 90 turns long. If the time elapsed per turn is 2 to 5 minutes then we are only talking about 3 to a max of a little over 7 hrs of real time. Putting troops in the back of a Merkava for this amount of time is not outside the scope of human endurance.

The videos show them practicing the deployment of infantry from the rear of this tank. Why practice something if its not intended to be used in battle?

EDIT: Achzarit has a 3 man crew and carries 7 infantry.

Last edited by kevineduguay1; September 9th, 2010 at 01:33 AM..
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