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Old August 22nd, 2010, 12:48 AM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Merkava.

Would it be possible to class the Merkava as a "Gun APC" Unit Class 127, instead of a "MBT" so it could carry some troops? I have tried this and it works fine. Capacity would be 8 men for all versions. The carry capacity in the game should be "8" not "108". We don't want folks stuffing TOW teams or other infantry heavy weapons in this tank. It was ment to carry a rifle team or even just a sniper or two.
Not all Merks carry a 50cal MG. Also this weapon is tied to the main gun and the balistics computer as is the CMG.
All Merks carry one or another version of the 60mm Soltam mtr. This weapon is also tied to the balistics computed. It is said to be very accurate. No Merks in the game have it. Will they?
When sitting "on station" some Merkavas are stuffed with as many as 80 rounds of main gun ammo (120mm)but can carry no troops. Could a version like this be placed in the "MBT" class?

Last edited by kevineduguay1; August 22nd, 2010 at 11:10 AM..
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Merkava.

You might want to read page 6 2nd post on from this recent thread
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...245#post754245
& comment back here.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 03:25 AM
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Default Re: Merkava.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevineduguay1 View Post
Would it be possible to class the Merkava as a "Heavy APC" instead of a "MBT" so it could carry some troops? I have tried this and it works fine. Capacity would be 8 men for all versions. The carry capacity in the game should be "8" not "108". We don't want folks stuffing TOW teams or other infantry heavy weapons in this tank. It was ment to carry a rifle team or even just a sniper or two.
Not all Merks carry a 50cal MG. Also this weapon is tied to the main gun and the balistics computer as is the CMG.
All Merks carry one or another version of the 60mm Soltam mtr. This weapon is also tied to the balistics computed. It is said to be very accurate. No Merks in the game have it. Will they?
When sitting "on station" some Merkavas are stuffed with as many as 80 rounds of main gun ammo (120mm)but can carry no troops. Could a version like this be placed in the "MBT" class?
AFAIK to carry an eight men squad they would have to leave out most of the ammunition. I also suspect that classing it as an APC would lead the AI to use it as such.
I think it would be nice but only as specialized scenario design and human control units, not general issue.
As for the mortar it is an issue of lack of weapon slots and the game engine not dealing well with such a setup.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 11:09 AM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

IMP,

Yes weapons slots are a problem but they can be overcome by combining the firepower of some of the MGs. For instance the 50cal MG and the 7.62mm CMG can be made into on weapon as could the two 7.62 mm AAMG. This leaves two slots open, one for the mortar and one for the main gun. The only versions of the Merkava that this will not work with are those armed with the LAHAT ATGM. Even if you eliminate the 50cal MG you still have to include the 7.62mm CMG and at least one 7.62mm AAMG. So with the LAHAT armed vehicles the mortar would have to be left off or all the AAMGs.
Ammo for the mortar came up as 30 rounds on most sources I found. They also said that most were HE. But like you said there are other rounds carried. So a game loadout of 15-20 rounds would be a fair solution.

Marcello,

I classed mine as a "Gun APC" Unit class 127. I will edit my original post for clarification. When the AI uses this class of APC it will move and shoot like a tank but I must admit that I have not fully tested this yet so your concerns may be valid. If a AI problem exists a custom human player unit would still be nice.
I have seen sites that also talk about reduces ammo loadouts for the main gun if infantry are carried. But other sites claim that this space is available for troop evacuation even with a normal ammo load.
If you can evacuate troops you can carry troops.
The rear compartment can be packed with more main gun ammo if nessessary. 30+ rounds of 120mm can be placed in this space. With this load no troops would be carried.
So if they can put 30 extra rounds of 120mm back there why not why not 8 men with small arms and maybe a LMG?
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: Merkava.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevineduguay1 View Post
IMP,
Yes weapons slots are a problem but they can be overcome by combining the firepower of some of the MGs. For instance the 50cal MG and the 7.62mm CMG can be made into on weapon as could the two 7.62 mm AAMG.
Perhaps you can lump together the two 7.62mm AAMG. But the 50cal MG and the 7.62mm CMG?
One has range of 40 and the other 24, accuracy is 23 and 18 respectively, ammo supply is different etc.
It would be a marriage made in hell.

Quote:
I have seen sites that also talk about reduces ammo loadouts for the main gun if infantry are carried. But other sites claim that this space is available for troop evacuation even with a normal ammo load.
If you can evacuate troops you can carry troops.
The devil is in the detail. From what I read in the past the idea was to have enough space to evacuate bailed out tank crews under combat situation and similar. Needless to say 4 men with no equipment require substantially less space than a eight men squad in combat gear. Carrying a squad could be done but only leaving out most of the ammunition to free the additional space.

Quote:
The rear compartment can be packed with more main gun ammo if nessessary. 30+ rounds of 120mm can be placed in this space. With this load no troops would be carried.
So if they can put 30 extra rounds of 120mm back there why not why not 8 men with small arms and maybe a LMG?
Thirty 120mm rounds do not take up as much as space as 8 soldiers which, it should be noted, is more than most modern IFVs manage. I would suspect that those thirty rounds would fill the space earmarked for the crew evacuation capability.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: Merkava.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevineduguay1 View Post
IMP,

Yes weapons slots are a problem but they can be overcome by combining the firepower of some of the MGs. For instance the 50cal MG and the 7.62mm CMG can be made into on weapon as could the two 7.62 mm AAMG. This leaves two slots open, one for the mortar and one for the main gun. The only versions of the Merkava that this will not work with are those armed with the LAHAT ATGM. Even if you eliminate the 50cal MG you still have to include the 7.62mm CMG and at least one 7.62mm AAMG. So with the LAHAT armed vehicles the mortar would have to be left off or all the AAMGs.
Ammo for the mortar came up as 30 rounds on most sources I found. They also said that most were HE. But like you said there are other rounds carried. So a game loadout of 15-20 rounds would be a fair solution.

Marcello,

I classed mine as a "Gun APC" Unit class 127. I will edit my original post for clarification. When the AI uses this class of APC it will move and shoot like a tank but I must admit that I have not fully tested this yet so your concerns may be valid. If a AI problem exists a custom human player unit would still be nice.
I have seen sites that also talk about reduces ammo loadouts for the main gun if infantry are carried. But other sites claim that this space is available for troop evacuation even with a normal ammo load.
If you can evacuate troops you can carry troops.
The rear compartment can be packed with more main gun ammo if nessessary. 30+ rounds of 120mm can be placed in this space. With this load no troops would be carried.
So if they can put 30 extra rounds of 120mm back there why not why not 8 men with small arms and maybe a LMG?
The rear compartment holds 30 of the 48 standard rounds (and MG ammo cans etc), not 30 'extra' rounds. Otherwise the Merkavas would be carrying 70 120mm!. The rear compartment is mainly for ease of resupplying ammo while under fire or when on a fire-step. i.e. the same philosophy as the M109 and similar SP arty, easier to bung a palette in the back passage than to break rounds down and hump them up and over the turret hatches one by one.

The merkava can carry some infantry in the ammo space, if required, but only at the cost of ammunition storage. Thus it is best to have any infantry in separate APCs, unless you like MBT with only 12 or so ready rounds.

We could allow a carry count of 4 - so they could squeeze in a ditched tank crew there, but this would be for humans only. And if we did, then the end users would immediately be using this to carry scout teams. In addition - tank carry is not protected, so any such would be shot off the rear decks because they are classed as tank riders.

The merkava carrying of infantry is a myth. The carry capacity is there, at the expense of ammo for dire emergency situations, which is out with the game's scope.

By all means feel free to make a heavy APC class Merkava with 12 or so 120mm and a carry capacity of say 8 in your own local OOB. But such a beast will not be appearing in our OOB. Only of use in perhaps a contrived Hollywood movie scene, as the Israelis have perfectly adequate heavy APC to shift grunts in - while the merkavas shift 120mm bricks, as they are designed to.

Cheers
Andy
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 02:44 PM

Marek_Tucan Marek_Tucan is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

There is also a modification of Merkava for LIC with a loophole in the back door intended for sniper, but obviously this is to be employed only in static positions.

As for coop with infantry, SOP in Lebanon was, AFAIK, one tank and one APC, with a squad of infantry, on an isolated outpost - generally tank with its better optics watches the main sector, APC covers its rear, infantry does whatever is neccesary.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 08:15 PM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

Go to this site. It takes forever to load so if you want to go to one of the links open a new window to save time. This site covers everything Merkava.

http://www.supervideo.com/MXCD-ROMOS.htm

On site is a picture of one of the authors tank teams. In that pic there are 9 men. In the caption it says that he (the author) and another soldier taking the picture are out of the shot. Thats 11 men total. 4 crew, 7 infantry, no reduction in ammo.
Another photo from inside a Merkava plainly shows 4 full armed combat soldiers. The caption states that 4 have already been deployed not counting the photographer. Thats 9 troops.
The new Merkava "Tankbulance" carries a doctor, 2 orderlies, space for 2 stretcher cases, life support equipment, and medical supplies. This version has a slightly reduced main gun ammo load but still has all the weapons of a normal Merkava.

The site also contains info on.... well just about everything about a Merkava you can think of from springs to on board UAVs. Look at it then tell me what you think. You will be greeted by the biggest picture of a Merkava that I have ever seen on the internet!

P.S. Did you know that the Merkava and the Namer have on board toilets!
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: Merkava.

Lot to read there.

Toilet is for NBC operations several vehicles have them, BMP-3 & Warrior come to mind
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 07:36 PM

kevineduguay1 kevineduguay1 is offline
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Default Re: Merkava.

On some operations the tankers have to stay "on station" for more than 24hrs. The toilet helps in these operations too.

Keep reading that site and check out some of the videos.

When finnished come back and tell me that the Merkava cannot carry 8+ fully armed combat troops and a full load of ammo.
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