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Old December 2nd, 2020, 05:38 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Rifle grenades

Hello, I had a look at rifle grenades and found several missing and quite a lot with the wrong penetrations, ranges and HE Kill values.

Though fired from the same weapon in reality, in the game the HEAT and HE rifle grenades are separated out into two seperate weapons because the HE and HEAT munitions always have very different ranges. Here is a quote from Manual of Grenades by Major Cowan, talking about the British No 68 HEAT rifle grenade. "its effective range is approximately 50 to 75 yds the sights fitted to the rifle are specifically designed for use between these particular distances" and "the trajectory of the 68 must be flat". Flat so the munition hits the armour square on. Any further away than 75 yds the trajectory is too curved/steep, and the grenade hits the armour at too large an angle to work properly, the impact fuse may not operate and armour thickness is amplified by the impact angle. This is true for all HEAT rifle grenades.

So a rifle grenades HEAT munitions AP effective range is quite short, but when the HEAT grenade is used in the HE role it can be lobbed out to about the same range as the dedicated HE grenade, about twice as far. And some HEAT munitions have a bigger HE Kill value than the same rifles dedicated HE grenade. The HE Kill value of a HEAT munition appears to be only usable if the game has that weapon in the first slot (ie unit can fire at soft target). German unit 947 for example doesn't need HE ammo issued to its rifle grenade as its HEAT ammo issue can be used up as AP or HE, because it is in slot 1, so it will fire using Its HEKill. So rather than 8 HE and 8 AP it should have 16 AP . Ideally this dual behaviour should be made available for any rifle grenade weapon when in slots 2-4 as well. Perhaps make one or all of them the same as slot one with the two extra fields?
The game (except UK) always has either HE grenade firing or HEAT grenade firing squads which assumes the squads rifle grenade man is carrying only HE or only HEAT grenades. I would suggest that the grenadier will actually be carrying both types, this is luckily easy to fix. Just put the HE only firing wpn and the HEAT only firing wpn into squads in pairs rather than one or the other. The HE firing weapon should be placed in the squads hand grenade slot. Though the squad will now no longer have any hand grenades, this is not too bad as the Japanese, US and UK HE rifle grenades are actually the standard hand thrown grenade with a tail or plate added so HEKill is already the same as the handgrenade anyway. Not so for the Germans unfortunately, but their HE rifle grenade could be thrown as a hand grenade.

Germany had 5 HEAT Rifle grenades
GG/P40 or Schuss Gg. P-40 this one is missing.
Wpn 94 PzGwrGranate 30
Wpn 95 PzGwrGranate 40 (Gross Gewehr-Panzergranate)
Wpn 188 PzGwrGranate 46
Wpn 192 PzGwrGranate 61
There is also
Wpn 93 Gewehrgranate, the standard German HE rifle grenade.
Ian Hoggs book Infantry weapons of WWII amongst others gives wpn 93 Gewehrgranate a range of 275m (6). The sight goes up to 250m in 25m increments. Game has 200m (4)

Game wpn 93 Gewehrgranate is actually firing Gewehrgranate 30/1 Hogg points out that there is also a Gewehrgranate 30/4 "Weitschuss" which comes with a more powerful cartridge and has a range of 500m. This is confirmed in various US pamphlets such as dictionary of explosives ammunition and weapons (German section) or German Hand and Rifle grenades, both are on the internet.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/160636.pdf
https://stephentaylorhistorian.files...e-grenades.pdf
Another source gives 30/4 a range of 711 yds. This would be possible if it were fired out of the Granatbüchse which uses an extra powerful cartridge. So wpn 93 can also have a range of 10 or possibly even 14.
Rikugun also mentions that US tests established that the Japanese copy of the PzGwrGranate 30 can be fired with no more "kick" than a normal rifle bullet (The grenade is very light at 9oz), so from the shoulder. So the German Gewehrgranate, PzGwrGranate 30 and the Japanese type 2, (PzGwrGranate 30 copy) might all get an accuracy of 3.
PzGwrGranate 30 and 40 both have a game range of 4 which is possible for the PzGwrGranate 30 because it is so light, so flys flatter further. But at twice the weight I would put PzGwrGranate 40 range as 3. When lobbed out as a HE munition these HEAT grenades have a range of 8 and 5 hexes respectively. see
https://www.lonesentry.com/articles/...-grenades.html
inert-ord gives these introduction dates;
PzGwrGranate 40, Nov 42.
PzGwrGranate 30, Feb 42.
5 units have them issued too early.
Wpn 93 HE Gewehrgranate is available in game from 1936 but its introduction date is feb 42. The Schiessbecher cup used to launch these three grenades isnt available until 1942. see
http://inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerrg2/mod40/index.html
The German rifle grenade that actually is available before feb 42 is the missing Schuss Gg. P-40 used by the Luftwaffe, see
http://www.inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerrg2/ggp40/index.html
https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/world...s-crete-25191/
This weapons name suggests it might have been available in 1940, inert-ord thinks this might be the case. Another source says it was first used by Paratroops on Crete, so that would be May 41. This grenade has fins so accuracy is 1, and sights only go up to 100m so range of 2. penetration is 4.
From
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...nzergranate+61
"In 1928 all old launchers were collected and scrapped."
This sounds right as I can't find any evidence of German grenade launchers before 1940, there are about 21 German units with HE rifle grenades before 1940 starting from 1930.

German SS HEAT rifle grenades, Wpn 188 and 192 only appear in the SS (sw) units. I think it would be a good Idea to put these into SS Granatetruppen as part of the SS PzVern formation. Weapons 94 and 95 are already issued this way.
Most sources give them an effective max range of 200 yds so AT game range of 4 is good. PzGwrGranate 61 achieved this by being fired with a much more powerful cartridge in the Granatbüchse. Probably the PzGwrGranate 46 also, as the tail section is Identical. See
https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/334814553523101470/

Wpn 35 Kampfpistole can also represent Leuchtpistole or Sturmpistole. These weapons all fire 3 relevant munitions, game has just one. Game HEAT penetration is 2 References give 5 or 8. see
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/0...fsturmpistole/
The 50mm penetrating HEAT munition (326 HL/LP) appears to have been issued from 1941 which matches what the game has. The missing 80mm penetrating HEAT munition (Panzerwurfkörper 42) appears to have been issued some time in 1942.
326 HL/LP maximum lobbing range is 300yds so compared to other HEAT munitions this equates to about 2-4 hexes flying flat but it is famously inaccurate so game range of 2 seems right. Dispersion is 4 x 3 m at 70m for Panzerwurfkörper 42 and 326 HL/LP
Wpn 35 also fires a HE munition, the Wurfkörper 361 (egg grenade on a stick, introduced 1941) to the same maximum range as the two HEAT munitions effective range of 2. So this weapon works perfectly in slot one using its HEAT penetration against hard targets and its egg grenades HE Kill against soft targets.

Not so perfect is UKs wpn 93, Rifle Grenade. this appears to be the HE (Mills bomb) rifle grenade and HEAT (No. 68) rifle grenade combined into a single weapon which doesn't work very well because the HE rifle grenade has a range of 4 (200yds) whereas the HEAT rifle grenade has a range of 2 (75yds) but the combined game munition has a range of 3, so overestimating one and underestimating the other. I would suggest separating out the UK HE and HEAT rifle grenade munitions into two seperate weapons as is done in the German and Japanese OOBs.
No. 68 HEAT grenade Introduction date is November 40. Units conform to this. The Cup launcher that fires it and the plated Mills bomb it fires were introduced in 1917.

According to Rikugun, Japan has two indigenous HE rifle grenades one is the type 91 (defensive) grenade fitted with tail fins and fired from a spigot and the other the unstabilised type 99 (offensive) grenade fired out of a cup (Type 100). Ranges are 110m and 132yds respectively. The first type appears in the game, it is wpn 93 Type 91 Rfl-Grn. for type 100 see
https://www.lonesentry.com/articles/...e-grenade.html
wpn 93 Might be renamed Type 91/100 Rfl-Grn. It has correct range of 3.
I'm not sure why but wpn 93 has AP penetration 222 but 0 HEAT penetration.
Type 91 rifle grenade is probably available in 1931 and Type 100 began "Full" production in 2/42
Tens of thousands of these launchers were made so perhaps they might be issued a bit more widely in the OOB? they are confined pretty much to support squads.

Japan made their own Identicle PzGwrGranate 30 and PzGwrGranate 40 with the same penetration performance, range and payload as the German versions. Game has only PzGwrGranate 40 copy, wpn 109 Type 2 Rfl-Grnd. The book Rikugun by Ness gives the Japanese PzGwrGranate 30 pen of 30mm leaving a 12mm hole and the PzGwrGranate 40 penetration of 50mm leaving a 15mm hole. Game has pen of 7. However,
This site
https://stephentaylorhistorian.files...nk-warfare.pdf
gives Japanese PzGwrGranate 40 a penetration of 3.88 inches ~10 but this is against mild steel.
Also being spin stabilised the accuracy should move from 1 to 2. or even 3 for the PzGwrGranate 30 copy.
The Japanese copy of the PzGwrGranate 30 is missing in the game. It is also called type 2.

Rikugun also mentions that in 1942 the SNLF developed its own rifle grenades. These are fired from a spigot and have tail fins. Known as the type 2 and type 3 rifle grenades they are type 99 (offensive) grenade with a tail added and can be fired out to 205m. Navy (SNLF) also developed a HEAT grenade that could penetrate 40mm but with an effective range of just 50m. So range of 2 hexes. You might like to add these to the Game.

US has two HEAT rifle grenades, wpns 92 M9A1 Rifle Grnd and 93 M9 RifleGrenade which have the correct ranges of 2 hexes. Missing in the game is the US M17 HE rifle grenade This is wpn 87 Mk. II Grenade with a tail. The HE grenade isn't in the game but has a range of 200yds, so 4 hexes. I would suggest leaving the HEAT rifle grenades as is and adding the HE rifle grenade into the game as a separate weapon that replaces the hand thrown grenade in squads carrying a rifle grenade launcher.
The spigot adaptor that made a rifle a rifle grenade launcher began production in November 41. Unit 054 has its rifle grenade launcher one month early on the 10/41 so no big deal but unit 276 Engineer Sqd has theirs a decade early on 1/30. In WW1 the US had used the french VB launcher but this was discontinued in 1924.

Frances wpn 93 VB Rifle Grnd has correct range of 4 and saw service from WW1 to WW2.

Russia has 3 Rifle grenades. One HE, two HEAT, game has only the HE grenade, wpn 93 VDG M30 Rfl Grn usual designation for this weapon is Dyakonov Rifle Grenade Launcher. Range of 4 is wrong, should be 6. An additional charge could be attached to the bottom of the grenade giving it a range of 850m, so range can be 17 sights are graduated up to 850m. Began service in 1930, but had been completely withdrawn from service by 1942, six units have it available up until 1946. It was serviced by a 2 man team carrying 16 genades. see
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93...BE%D0%B2%D0%B0
and
https://i3.guns.ru/forums/icons/foru...609/609674.jpg
The HEAT grenade fired from the same launcher is the VKG-40 issued from some time in 1944. Reference givess 50mm penetration and 150m range, when converted to fire the VKG-40 the 1944 version of the weapon could no longer fire the original HE grenade.
In 1941 the VPGS-41 HEAT appeared, but had also disappeared by the end of 1942. As it was quite heavy it had a range of 60m so 2 hexes, though it could be lobbed out to 170m Penetration was 30-40mm see
https://www.lexpev.nl/grenades/sovie...ia/vpgs41.html

Here is a table to help if you decide to correct some rifle grenade stats. Weights are ounces.
I have calculated OzHEKill values for the rifle grenades using 1 oz of high explosive equals 1 HE Kill point because the German Gewehrgranate with 1.75oz HE has HE kill of 2 and stielhandgranate with 6oz of HE has a HE Kill of 6.

__________Game__Book__HE___Game__Oz___Overall
___________Pen___Pen___fill____HEKill_HEKill__weig ht

Gewehrgranate_________1.75____2____2_____9
VB______________________2.1____3____2_____17
Dyakonov_______________1.7____2____2_____12

30mm T2__________3____1.1__________1_____9.2
40mm T2____7____5/7___4.25___3____4
PzGrGt 30___3____3_____1.1____3____1_____8.8
PzGrGt 40___7____7____4.25____3____4____13.5
PzGrGt 46___9____9____5.16____3____5____15.5
PzGrGt 61__12___12____8.69____3____8____19
P-40_____________4_____6.2__________6_____18.2
M9_________5____4_____4_______3____4_____18.3
M9A1______10____6____4_______4____4_____20.9
No. 68______5_____5____5.5_____5____5_____31.5
VPGS-41_________3-4___11.8________11_____23.9
VKG-40___________5____3____________3_____12.8

Kampfpistole/Leuchtpistole/Sturmpistole
326 HL/LP___2____5____.78_____3____1_____6.3
Pzwfkr 42________8______2.1_________2______21
Wfkr 361________________4___________4______8.1

Stielhandgranate________6_____6_____6

Looking at
https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/334814553523101470/
German HEAT ammunition penetrations look about right. But some penetrations look wrong, in general correct HEAT penetration is usually roughly in line with HE filling. US wpn 92 M9A1 Rifle Grnd has 10 should be less, US originally tried to fire the bazooka warhead (pen 10) as the M10 rifle grenade but it was too heavy. 10 is the same penetration as the bazooka so maybe that is what's happened here? Hogg gives British copy of the M9A1 had a penetration of less than 50mm. Hogg in Infantry weapons of WWII gives M9 and M9A1 40 and 60mm penetration. Even though all sources give Kampfpistol HEAT munitions penetration of 5 or 8 considering that they only carry .78 and 2.1 oz of HE each 5 and 8 seems extremely high. Though perhaps the very slow travel or type of explosive used (hexogene) of these munitions greatly increased penetration?

To check what the HE Kills should be I also looked at what the light mortars had, so German 5cm has 4.5oz and 5, Japanese type 89 has 5.4oz and 5. but couldn't find the HE explosive filling for a British 2" mortar can anyone help?

Can I suggest that from the next version you attach and retrospectively attach the appropriate OOB files to the scenarios so the scenarios are no longer a reason to not remove the rifle grenades that exist in the game before they were issued?
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