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  #241  
Old February 24th, 2013, 09:32 AM

luigim luigim is offline
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Default Re: MBT's

First question: are you sure that there isn't in service a version of M1A2 TUSK with APDSFS rounds ( 20 SABOT 20 HEAT normal combat load) that would be classified in game in the normal MBT section and not the Urban Tank section?
I think that ERA armor would be useful in pure armor combat, and TUSK is a field installable kit that allows tanks to be upgraded without need to be recalled to a maintenance depot.

Second question: I read in this link
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2011/16.pdf

and in this link

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/m1-specs.htm

that M1A2 SEP has 42 round instead of 40 ( in the game is 40).


Thanks.

Last edited by luigim; February 24th, 2013 at 09:59 AM..
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  #242  
Old February 24th, 2013, 10:43 AM

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Default Re: MBT's

Another question: in the USA OOB Cavalry Troop has 5 Morale and Experience Mod, while Cavalry Tank Section has no morale or exp mod; Cav Tank Section is in fact the same as MBT Platoon. Maybe there is an error and it needs to be updated with +5 Morale and Exp Mod?

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  #243  
Old February 24th, 2013, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigim View Post
Another question: in the USA OOB Cavalry Troop has 5 Morale and Experience Mod, while Cavalry Tank Section has no morale or exp mod; Cav Tank Section is in fact the same as MBT Platoon. Maybe there is an error and it needs to be updated with +5 Morale and Exp Mod?

Regards
It's been corrected

Don
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  #244  
Old February 24th, 2013, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigim View Post
First question: are you sure that there isn't in service a version of M1A2 TUSK with APDSFS rounds ( 20 SABOT 20 HEAT normal combat load) that would be classified in game in the normal MBT section .
It's designed for urban combat that's why it's armed with the really big shotgun

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  #245  
Old February 24th, 2013, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigim View Post
Second question: I read in this link
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2011/16.pdf

and in this link

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/m1-specs.htm

that M1A2 SEP has 42 round instead of 40 ( in the game is 40).


Thanks.

It's somewhat amazing that considering how long the M1A2 has been in the OOB's with the wrong ammo load and how many people play that OOB that you are the first to spot and report it

Good catch

ON THE OTHER HAND there are a lot of websites reporting the A2 carries 40 rounds including

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product429.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m1a2_abrams.htm
Don

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  #246  
Old February 24th, 2013, 12:30 PM

luigim luigim is offline
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Default Re: MBT's

Rainy sunday in Perugia, Italy.

That's why I'm critic-looking to the OOB.

Remember to add the right ammo number to the incoming ( in the next patch) SEP v2 tank.

I suggest an add:

Ukraine is upgrading its T64B to T64BM Bulat.

Here are the links:

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t64bm_bulat.htm

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bmbulatmbt/

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_218.html
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  #247  
Old February 24th, 2013, 05:27 PM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Well as most know I've been tracking the ARJUN MKI/MKII for a long time now. But since I was "side-lined" for a few months I lost track of the trials of the MKII around mid/late summer of 2012. After the MKI utterly destroyed the T-90S in trials in the summer of 2010 (Indian MOD pulled their T-72 tanks before the trials to avoid embarrassment, SEE MORE IN THIS THREAD.) I was looking forward to the results. Today since the Patch work is done (Thanks Don!) at my end for this year, to look into it. Well MOD/Army politics has gotten in the way along with economics as well. It took 35 years for India to get to the ARJUN, how many to the MKII? Who knows? I'm not proposing any date change etc. for the ARJUN MKII and the program is not dead. Also the purchase of the T-90MS (AM-Russian.) is old news if you've been following this Thread. The source is good and used many times by me and the Business Standard he writes for is an old and well respected news agency for you newer folks. In order...
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...s-to-push.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...ture-main.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...ifference.html


These are good reads that provide valuable insight how things work. Like the F-35 grounded again this Friday. Turbine fan stress cracks in the engine that should be good for a few months delay or longer a parallel though for different reasons but no less political or economic..

Regards,
Pat
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  #248  
Old March 16th, 2013, 06:12 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

A useful site I subscribe to to get full download privileges and it's free. So while looking beyond the one good ref I have (Happens a lot with smaller countries unfortunately when dealing with equipment. And yes the work never really stops it seems!?!) concerning Argentina getting the first of it's updated TAM tanks from Israel, I came across this that some might find helpful Again this is the sample offered follow the directions if you want the rest.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/105269884/...ognition-Guide

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Pat
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Old March 25th, 2013, 11:46 PM
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Default

Unlike the Helo inputs, Don did have some feedback on the below items more about UNIT #'s etc. then the "nuts n bolts" of the equipment as presented. So you'll find a cleaner version here then was posted originally in The Patch Thread.
Otherwise nothing new here.


Patch Post #2 for the 2012/2013 campaign 18 February 2013. The first two items “real” purpose will be to provide a litmus test of real world technology meets game play realities. I can only provide the raw data and offer my interpretations of the information. Helo A7 and MBT A1 are there because they’re real and a decision will have to be made by Don and Andy in what direction this info will ultimately take the game in as the end date approaches. It is out of my hands but, we have arrived at a crossroads. What’s not here that some maybe expected? Yes you might be right if you guessed the Russian T-90AM/MS (Export version.). Why? Simply I have data and stats of all sorts, what I don’t have are production and acquisition dates for anyone including the Russians. So it’ll wait and hopefully I’ll get that info later this year. I will not throw a “Hail Mary” and enter it hoping I’ll be close to getting it right (or wrong.) there’s been too much of that already here by others in the past. Also the SAA OLIFANT now there’s a project and that’s why ~30 minutes ago I thought this can wait until next years campaign as well. Again I traveled the world and saw nothing now how does that happen!?! And please remember Post #1 for all others. Thank You!

MBT’s…
A1. USA/ADD/JAN 2012/M1A2 SEP V2/USE/MODIFY UNIT #637 with CROWS II .50 CAL/TI/GSR 50-70.//
The Army is currently operating with only three types of ABRAMS tanks. These are the M1A1 SA (These are the ones IRAQ are using.) models used by the Army Reserve and National Guard, the M1A2 SEP V1 and now the M1A2 SEP V2.
The “heart” of the V2is the complete redesign of the new FCS and associated systems. There are engine and associated system upgrades as well more to efficiency and improved maintenance capabilities. Not clear as to any improvement in speed though, which is probably fine as is. The CROWS II system carries 5 times more ammo then previous machine gun systems carried of the .50 Cal class. These tanks are projected to be operational until 2050. The issue here will be “how far” so I’ll start with a quote from Commander of the 1st Combined Arms Battalion, 63rd Armor Regiment, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Henderson off Ref. 1 below …"The optics [system] has finally caught up with the ammunition," Henderson added. And…"The ammunition has always been able to kill at extended ranges but the previous optics did not allow us, in some cases, to positively identify targets beyond 3,000m." The new FCS now does this but, more on that below. All associated systems will need to be improved from FC, LRF (?) & STAB. The current BRADLEY’s have the same system as well, there is a new variant with the “BUSK” pkg I’ll submit next year to include this FCS pkg. The minimum from the quote above puts the game range at 60+ the maximum based on a couple articles I've read would take this out to 4500yds or 4115.800m which = 82.296 hexes. The article in ref 1 does mention 4000yds as well. I’m more concerned with the “positively identify targets beyond 3,000m.” part, I feel the time has come and we can’t ignore the reality of this situation. This will be the “MERKVA 4b” crossroads point of when that was advanced to TI/GSR 50 awhile back. Reference two will address the new M829E4 Kinetic Round that will push the “Vision” that I believe is already there now out to the 70+/- range, then what do we do?
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...aded-vehicles/
http://www.ausa.org/publications/arm...ts/SA_0911.pdf
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_2430.html
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/abrams.htm
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/

A2. TANZANIA/ADD/OCT 2012/TYPE 59G/RESET/MG Chinese 125mm SB w/Rds UKN/12.7mm and 7.62mm w/Rds UKN//

The tanks were shipped to China and RESET and during that time China has set maintenance facilities in Tanzania to support these tanks and other Chinese weapons systems bought there. The TYPE 59G represents the apex of the TYPE 59 development. The 125mm MG with auto loader is based on the Russian 2A46M 125mm MG. The turret appears to be the same one that’s on the new Chinese TYPE 96G. Based on that it would appear then also it is carrying the same EW system as the TYPE 96 which is similar to the Russian Shtora-1. It has been up armored with a new and heavier turret to support the MG, electronic and electrical systems have also been updated to include a new FCS and it also supposedly received new more powerful engines to provide the power needed for all the new systems onboard and the AC required to keep them cool. AC in tanks is just like AC in Subs, its there for the electronics first and crew comfort hopefully in a close second. This is probably true as the original engines would have problems in this area and in dealing with the extra weight and the need for additional speed as well. Note: It would appear this improved version of the Chinese TYPE 96 is not in the OOB as shown in Ref. 6 below. See UNIT 026. The refs refer to “the new TYPE 96”.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rica&Itemid=55
http://www.armyrecognition.com/decem...9g_271211.html
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type59.asp
http://www.armyrecognition.com/china..._pictures.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/china...igence_uk.html

A3. SWEDEN/ADD/OCT 2004/STRV 122B/Use UNIT 358 and modify per below as needed//

The big issue here is protection over the base German Leopard tanks that the STRV-122A and STRV-122B design modifications are derived from. First a breakdown of the STRV Series. The STRV-121 is a Leopard 2A4 as used by Germany at the time of purchase by Sweden in 1994 and 1995 they are both interchangeable. The first STRV-121 became operational in Feb 1994 and are in storage dates range from late 2006 TO 2010. Ref. 1 does not currently list them, see C1 below.
The STRV-122A
is a “German” Leopard 2A5 but that’s where the comparison ends. The Swedes had the STRV-122 frontal and side armor improved upon by adding a 3rd Generation add on armor to include glacial armor and the turret and spall liner installed. The major area in armor improvement was in the top protection for instance the turret hatches are just over 20cm in thickness. After extensive testing the Swedes decided on a geared system for opening them at even severe angles. Another major upgrade is the replacement of standard German smoke grenade launchers with the Gallix System. The Gallix System is essentially a soft-kill active defense system with a few extra wrinkles. The system uses nine grenade launcher tubes on either side of the turret, both of which can be rotated from +45 degrees to -5 degrees, independently of each other. (Standard elevation is 30 degrees, if none other is selected.) The Gallix System also includes sensors atop the turret to detect and warn of incoming targeting lasers and active IR targeting systems. The system can be set to launch one or more smoke grenades (either standard smoke or IR-obscuring smoke) automatically if lasers or IR targeting is detected, or the commander can choose to launch them at his command. Any of the grenade tubes can also be loaded with antipersonnel close-defense grenades (similar to the tactical buckshot or flechette rounds of grenade launchers); these must be fired by the commander (there is no provision for automatic firing of these grenades). Other types of grenades that can be used in the Gallix System include HE-Blast grenades and fragmentation grenades; again, these must be fired deliberately by the commander. They became operational in late 1997. See C1 below.
The STRV-122B has been further upgraded in a joint project with Germany and later the Netherlands, Norway and Switzerland. After extensive testing by the Swedes in the ability of the LEO to withstand IED and advanced RPG attacks. KMW did the work resulting in the German LEO 2A6M (30 modified with 20 to be later leased by Canada to support their Afghan Ops.) and STRV-122B (14 modified at this time.). Out of this project came additional improvements such as an armor plate on the bottom/lower front (See pic below.) for increased protection against IEDs, all around add armor, new improved spall liner throughout the interior, an improved vision system by better protecting the vision heads, vision blocks, rear camera, and the laser designator apertures, and improved better protected ammo storage as well. Per Ref. 1 the EVO package will be on the MBT 122B+ (Sounds like LEOPARD 2A7+ doesn't it?). Note Ref. 1 below is an official Swedish Defense source. Tank issues start on page 14.
http://ointres.se/2012-02-21_Lindstrom_IAV%202012.pdf
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/
http://www.haaland.info/armour/index...-stridsvagn122
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...p?armor_id=457
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/35969/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_...d_0706121.html
http://pmulcahy.100megs3.com/tanks/swedish_tanks.html
Pic:

A4. INDONESIA/ADD/JAN 2013/LEOPARD 2A6/Refurbished/Use GERMAN UNIT 033//

I’m not going to spend a whole lot of time here. I've posted on this tank deal for over a year or so already in the MBT Thread. Made some allowance for further training and logistics concerning the start date. Basically this was part of a move to better defend the country against the expansion of the Chinese military and the perceived threat it might have on the region and some local issues. This tank deal was started with the Dutch shortly after they took their LEO’s out of service and decommissioned their heavy armored units. See pg. 7 POST #65 C4 of this Thread. Anyway the Dutch parliament had issues over the (MOD and heads of Government supported the sale.) sale due to the Human Rights issues surrounding Indonesia. Indonesia had already evaluated several tanks and wanted the LEO’s and Germany stepped in ready to sell and support them once in country. The decision as I posted in the RE: SWEDISH Thread was easy in that the current LEO 2A6 was too advanced and expensive. Which left me with several options of which German UNIT 033 the best sense by date of service, time in storage and cost per unit based on the deal made and units ordered initially (Currently the order was increased to 103-105 units depending on source.) I further removed UNITS 034 and 035 for the same reasons as the current active German units. We will never know which one they got for sure without the release of specific contract information. I could only review the “calculus” of the information at hand and previous deals made to come to this conclusion. Part of the reason the Germans allowed for more tanks is the final negotiation of contract talks for the sell of MARDER 1A3 APCs in the last ref below but that’s for next year along with many other APC items I have. So much for brevity…anyway here are the refs in historical order...sort of.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/decem...s_1612112.html
http://www.brecorder.com/general-news/172/1256722/
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...2a6-mbts-deal/
http://atlanticsentinel.com/2012/07/...-german-tanks/
http://www.defensie.nl/english/lates...ds_with_a_bang
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news120180.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/march...r_1003121.html
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56
http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...y_1409124.html

C1. SWEDEN/CHANGE/STRV-121/UNITS 357 & 359/End Date to DEC 2010/ Refs per A3 above.//

The STRV-121 had for several years faced inactivation due economic strains in the country after the STRV-122A became operational. I have been unable to find any information that any have been sold off at this time though, due to the current time crunch I’m under to get this out, I haven’t spent any time to dig hard on that issue. They are however without a doubt out of service and I feel pending better information and as per Ref 1 of A3 above feel comfortable with this information.

C2. SWEDEN/CHANGE/STRV-122/UNITS 31, 356 & 358/Change to STRV-122A/Modify per A3 above/Refs per A3 above.//
Most of the STRV-122 units are to be upgraded by the end of this year. It is unclear but likely they will include many of the changes made to the STRV-122B. It is “rumored” to be getting a new FCS as well which is why (If I remember correctly.) it’s on my list for the tank TI/GSR improvement over current game numbers as posted in the MBT Thread.

C3. IRAN/CHANGE/ZULFIFAR/UNIT 030/To ZULFIFAR 1//
C4. IRAN/CHANGE/ZULFIFAR 2/UNIT 032/To ZOLFIFAR 3//

The army recognition site reposted all the info they had on these tanks. Normally these do this when they have gotten more information on a piece of equipment. With Iran being one of the more secretive countries we deal with (N. Korea comes to mind as well.) you have to take advantage of any information that might come to light in this case, for these tanks. The ZULFIFAR 2 is in the game and should be modified per C4 above. The ZULFIFAR 2 is a prototype test bed that leads to the development of the ZULFIFAR 3. Only 2 to 4 depending on source are known to exist and are extensively used in military parades to show off Iran’s technical prowess. Everything else I've gleamed from this is that 1) Seems to be new info on the ZOLFAGAR 1 FCS and 2) Iran is equipping the ZOLFAGER 3with a new FCS. I don’t think we’re talking TI/GSR as much as an improvement in the other FCS factors we use. Of course this would mean an additional UNIT to be added, but I’m not quite sure of that for now. Maybe you’ll see something in the refs to change your mind however given your normal work load and what I’m dumping on you, this should have the lowest priority from this list and could wait until next year if needs be.
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...rmainbattleta/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/iran_...res_video.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/iran_...res_video.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...s_0809121.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/febru...k_0402134.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/april...l_1204121.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/zulfiqar_1.htm
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/zulfiqar_3.htm

C5. THAILAND/CHANGE/OPLOT/UNIT 019/CHANGE DATE to JUN 2013//
We swagged the last date as well however it wasn't enough to overcome some contract then finally some production delays caused by 40 customer requested modifications to their OPLOT tanks. A revised May delivery date is set. This should fix it. Also you can DELETE UNIT 999 they are defiantly getting the OPLOT base tank and not the OPLOT-M.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/janua...d_0501121.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/janua...d_0701131.html

C6. USA/CHANGE/M1A2 SEP/UNITS 318 & 649/Change to M1A2 SEP V1//
Per Refs provided for A1. above. More concerned with active service at the time the SEP V2 got fielded then you having to add two more of the SAME tanks in the OOB for a needed name change.


Regards,
Pat

Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; March 26th, 2013 at 12:00 AM..
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  #250  
Old March 30th, 2013, 01:41 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

For some reason these refs work on the Patch Thread for the M1A2 SEP V2 as submitted for the next patch. They however aren't working on the previous above post for some reason after I transferred that info here to the topic "home thread". They are important to the discussion so here they are in working order...
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...aded-vehicles/
http://www.ausa.org/publications/arm...ts/SA_0911.pdf


Regards,
Pat
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