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  #71  
Old April 14th, 2010, 10:55 PM

Maerlande Maerlande is offline
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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

Well, on a quick read I didn't find a reference, but I've had some quite excellent success with hawk commanders (call of winds) with dual bottles of water. But don't send the damn hawks with them or they just rout. You can go with one bottle, but 2 seems to be the trick. One of those things when you have air and water gems to burn but short on others.
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  #72  
Old April 15th, 2010, 12:42 AM

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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomen View Post
Ok, another challenge: Machakas Black sorcerer. Is there any cost effective way to make proper use of their second shape ability? Can they be made into frontline damage dealers, or something thugish?

If those could change shape at will, like the skratti, they'd be totally awesome thugs.(maybe a possible CBM change to boost poor little Machaka?)

But as it is now, I haven't succeded in making them good at anything exept regular battle magery. They're totally awesome at that of course, but that unused potential itches...
Well... this would be my take:

amulet of luck, ring of regeneration.

Script summon earth power, invulnerability, soul vortex, fire shield.

Mix in a phoenix power if you can.


A 25 prot hunter spider, with fire shield and regen, and vortex going off isn't a bad thug. Give him plenty of gems ... skull of fire is another possibility. Giving him a guard of scum with low mr .. barbarians etc also good.

Last edited by chrispedersen; April 15th, 2010 at 01:01 AM..
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  #73  
Old April 15th, 2010, 04:17 AM
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Fantomen Fantomen is offline
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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

I've tried that actually. But the items + the need for extra gems + the tendency to rout when transforming ends up making them unreliable and cost ineffective. If you could get the pyre/vortex combo going without afflictions and other hassles then it might be worth it, but I only managed that with a success ratio of about 50&, not good enough. It works to a degree, but is it worth it?

A hunter lord with lycan amulet and girdle gives a lot more bang for the buck if you want a raider.

Frontline damage casters/buffers with some gear for survival seems to be the role of black sorcerors.

I also found them great for casting earthquakes since they are guaranteed to survive it.

How about the regular spider commanders, can they be thugged out somehow?
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  #74  
Old April 15th, 2010, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

When alone, the Black Sorcerers rout everytime they are changed to spider form. Apparently the game thinks 100% of starting healthpoints have been lost when the transformation happens. The Black Sorcere is also prone to rout when with an army when he transforms.

After Fantomen asked the possibility to thug with two Black Sorcerer I tried one with Slave Matrix and Lycanthrope Amulet. Originally I had intended to send along a third Black Sorcerer with a Master Matrix to do the buffing, but as I stumbled on indy astral mages, so I sent one S1 mage (with a Just Mans cross) along and scripted Communion Master, Personal Luck, Body Ethereal, Fire Closest (and hoping an arrow or something would the sorcerer before he goes ethereal to make him transform). Ethereal Lucky Berserking Black Sorcerers/Spiders worked damn fine against AI nations and indies, but it really isn't something worth to plan on (first of all you need a pretender who can craft the matrixes, and then you need to find an indy astral mage). But that is all I could really think of, so...
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  #75  
Old April 15th, 2010, 05:35 AM
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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

Best use of Black Sorcerer (with F random) is casting Fire Storm (with misc fire booster, Phoenix Power and 5 gems). And he can`t rout due overfatigue, so you can use some bodyguards, or summon elementals with another Black Sorcerer to protect storm-caster.
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  #76  
Old April 15th, 2010, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

Jarkko, Body Ethereal is AoE and therefore will not pass on to slaves.

If you've got an S mage, you're better off casting (Body Ethereal,Luck) as buffs than setting up a communion.
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  #77  
Old April 15th, 2010, 08:10 AM

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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

If you only have S1 then body ethereal and personal luck is going to give you some perilous fatigue. Better to just go with one of them.
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  #78  
Old April 15th, 2010, 09:57 AM
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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

No, he has a black sorcerer thug, with an S1 buffer tagging along behind.
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  #79  
Old April 15th, 2010, 08:02 PM

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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarkko View Post
When alone, the Black Sorcerers rout everytime they are changed to spider form. Apparently the game thinks 100% of starting healthpoints have been lost when the transformation happens. The Black Sorcere is also prone to rout when with an army when he transforms.
Bodyguards helps with the routing problem....
but perhaps someone casting berserker or touch of madnes would be better.

PS I agree that they are better casters than thugs.. I just tried to answer the question as asked = ). Best does not mean good = ).

I've also been curious on the interactions between phoenix pyre, elixer's of life, hearts of life, and second forms.

Final bit of curiousity.. I wonder if a low defined damage.. like rigor mortis.. could be used to trigger the transformation without causing death or routing...

Last edited by chrispedersen; April 15th, 2010 at 08:09 PM..
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  #80  
Old April 16th, 2010, 02:05 AM

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Default Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)

So I did some more tests of black sorcerors... some very interesting results....


There are a variety of ways to make the black sorceror not route upon transformation.

1. Excess fatigue >100. With Prot 27 (e9, bracer, invul) and a fireshield, they spiders would not route due to fatigue.

2. Lycan amulet.

3. elixir of life. interestingly, this sets the fatigue to ZERO as well as prevents routing, upon transformation. And yes, you come in the second form, not the humanoid form.

4. medallion of vengeance. I never routed when I had this item either.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Some interesting combinations.
1. Skull of fire, elixir of life.
Script phoenix, summon earth power, invuln, fire shield..

After the bracers, summon earth power, and earth bless you will have reinvig 9 ish. Plus, your base encumbrance is 2.

With a 2F sorceror (3f can ignore skull or phoenix)... after the elixir kicks in you will wipe out your accumulated fatigue.. and the spider will have no hesitation at all about casting burning hands repeatedly.

2. Another interesting, if expensive combination:
slave matrix. medallion of vengeance/berserker pelt/elixir

slave matrix - for a weird, linebacker communion.
berserker pelt- makes the slave charge forward.

So, you cast all your buffs... slave charges forward.. is killed.
however, at which point the elixir drains all the fatigue away.
And now you have a linebacker buffed spider....

3. With a shroud, bracer, lycan amulet - I kept finding the shroud after combat, so long as I won. 6/6. Might be luck of course.


Last interesting tidbit.
The assassins make GREAT mummies.
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