Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread

[Fyron]

We should compile a list of all tactics that are considered gamey by a significant portion of the players and all "features" that are often regarded as bugs. This would greatly aide PBW game hosts in that they could simply take the list and say what is allowed and what is not. This is NOT to be a discussion of whether something is gamey or not, only to compile a list of what can be considered gamey (by more than just a couple people, of course, so the list does not get out of hand).

1. Having AIs in the game.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Tech sharing.
11. Gifting/trading population.
12. Gifting/trading colony techs.

[ July 27, 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
We should compile a list of all tactics that are considered gamey
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ho-Kay. But the Last time I started a thread like this, to write a consice Encyclopedia Malfadorica entry, people said I was trolling.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 1. Having AIs in the game.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 3. Retroseries building.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif 4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif 5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif to all of 7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Tech sharing.
11. Gifting/trading population.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif 12. Gifting/trading colony techs.

[ July 27, 2003, 22:03: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[Fyron]

I did not want your opinion on whether something was gamey or not (or anyone's for that matter), just to make a list of what can be considered gamey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But the Last time I started a thread like this, to write a consice Encyclopedia Malfadorica entry, people said I was trolling.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I fail to see how that could be considered trolling... what was the thread?

[ July 27, 2003, 22:20: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Taera]

min/maxing racial designs, eventually forcing everyone to do the same. not counting small games.

[Fyron]

Please do not post reasons for why you think something is gamey. I do not care, and it is beyond the scope of this thread. All that you are allowed to post is something that might be gamey.

[Rollo]

making smarter discisions than your opponents, that will eventually win you the game

[Fyron]

Take it to another thread. Thank you.

[Fyron]

1. Having AIs in the game.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Tech sharing.
11. Gifting/trading population.
12. Gifting/trading colony techs.
13. Min/maxing empire setup.

[geoschmo]

So if I understand correctly you don't care if we think they are gamey or not, you just want a list for referance of things that some might consider gamey. Ok.

How about allies laying mines in the same sector to exceed the normal 100 mine limit?

[Fyron]

Yes, you understand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

1. Having AIs in the game.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Tech sharing.
11. Gifting/trading population.
12. Gifting/trading colony techs.
13. Min/maxing empire setup.
14. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.

[openair]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">y not just say surrendering period then? lol...

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by openair:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">y not just say surrendering period then? lol...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The point is it's a list that game owners can choose from. They probably wouldn't ban all of these separatly or they would just say no surender. But they might want one or a couple not allowed but the others to be allowed.

[Rollo]

15. Putting weapons on your ship designs.

Rollo (*in trollish mood today)

[Fyron]

All four of those forms of surrendering are completely different uses of the surrender option.

[DavidG]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
9. Gifting/trading planets.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">9b. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.

(I think this is significantly differant from 9.)

[DavidG]

I wonder if this list might be simpler if the things the game allowed you to ban were left out? or perhaps in a separate list. I mean if the host intentionally left certain options on they really can't be considered gamey for that game.

[Ragnarok]

Turtling yourself into a corner. (Using Warp closers and system shields)

[primitive]

Declearing war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by DavidG:
I wonder if this list might be simpler if the things the game allowed you to ban were left out? or perhaps in a separate list. I mean if the host intentionally left certain options on they really can't be considered gamey for that game.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't. As I said previously, just allowing the Surrender option to be enabled DOES NOT mean that every possible use of it is to be considered allowed. You could leave it on for the purpose of allowing a defeated empire to surrender, but still not want merging empires to be allowed.

[Fyron]

1. Having AIs in the game.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.

[DavidG]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DavidG:
I wonder if this list might be simpler if the things the game allowed you to ban were left out? or perhaps in a separate list. I mean if the host intentionally left certain options on they really can't be considered gamey for that game.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't. As I said previously, just allowing the Surrender option to be enabled DOES NOT mean that every possible use of it is to be considered allowed. You could leave it on for the purpose of allowing a defeated empire to surrender, but still not want merging empires to be allowed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea I agree. I was refering more to the "AI's in game" and the Intel one. I just suggested it because I suspect this list is in danger of getting too huge. I hope you can get something workable and somewhat short cause it's a good idea.

[Arkcon]

How 'bout:

Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by DavidG:
Yea I agree. I was refering more to the "AI's in game" and the Intel one. I just suggested it because I suspect this list is in danger of getting too huge. I hope you can get something workable and somewhat short cause it's a good idea.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He does sort of have a point here. Not really as a discusion of whether it's gamey or not, since you didn't want to get into that. But from "a making the list" clear and consise perspective. Although there are some AI aspects that probably should be included, such as making trades with them and stuff. But if the list is for game owners to use to set up house rules ( I think that is what you are getting at anyway) then "having AI's in the game" is not really nessecary as it's not practical as a house rule. They will either be there or they won't depending on how the game owner sets it up and the players can't do anything to get around it.

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

We could make a separate list for AI interactions... but, the new number one pretty much covers it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.

[Slynky]

Gifting/trading ships (or did you mean to leave that out?)

[tesco samoa]

2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
disagree
3. Retroseries building.
disagree
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
disagree ( depends on rules )
8. Intelligence projects.
disagree ( depends on rules )
9. Gifting/trading planets.
disagree ( depends on rules )
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
disagree ( depends on rules and the eventual outcome of the agreement )
11. Tech sharing.
disagree ( depends on rules )
12. Gifting/trading population.disagree ( depends on rules )
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
disagree ( depends on rules )
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
disagree ( depends on rules )
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
disagree ( depends on rules )
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
disagree ( depends on rules and how long they do it for)

[Fyron]

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Mothballing ships to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.

[Fyron]

Tesco, please take that to another thread. Again, this is NOT a list of things that ARE gamey, it is a list of things that MIGHT BE gamey, and are what game hosts need to consider when setting up the game. What they decide to state as allowed or not is up to them.

[ July 28, 2003, 01:40: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

Tesco, again the objective is not to generate a discussion as to whether any of these are gamey. It's simply intended to be a list for referance by game owners so they can decide what is and isn't going to be allowed in their games. It's to be used only as a checklist so they don't forget something and have it come back to bite them later in the game.

Geoschmo

Edit, too slow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ July 28, 2003, 01:42: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Fyron]

Geo, do you think you could get some form of this list once it is completed in the default game description when creating a new game on PBW? Or if you do not want it there, at least in a very noticeable place in the game creation page, such as a link towards the top of it.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Geo, do you think you could get some form of this list once it is completed in the default game description when creating a new game on PBW? Or if you do not want it there, at least in a very noticeable place in the game creation page, such as a link towards the top of it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know if the whole list is necceasary, but we could revise what is currently there and put some sort of reminder to the game owners to consider these kinds of things when setting up the game.

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

Hence, "some form of the list". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Thanks!

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Geo, do you think you could get some form of this list once it is completed in the default game description when creating a new game on PBW? Or if you do not want it there, at least in a very noticeable place in the game creation page, such as a link towards the top of it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A really good topic Fyron!! Thanks!
Oh, by the way, why exchange population would be gamey???

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Just kidding, just kidding.

[geoschmo]

Maybe a link to some place you can keep the list updated. As new bug exploits are discovered and if and when any patches coem out the list will likely change.

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

So about the bug exploits half... what are all the bugs that can be exploited in 1.84?

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Maybe a link to some place you can keep the list updated. As new bug exploits are discovered and if and when any patches coem out the list will likely change.

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ohh.. now see I did point to the Encyclopedia Malfadoria entry way back when. Click this link: (http://invirtuo.cc/phpwiki/index.php/PBW%20ethics) Now there was some disagreement back then on the content, but since anyone can edit, isn't it the ideal place for such a list?

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Arkcon:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by geoschmo:
Maybe a link to some place you can keep the list updated. As new bug exploits are discovered and if and when any patches coem out the list will likely change.

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ohh.. now see I did point to the Encyclopedia Malfadoria entry way back when. Click this link: (http://invirtuo.cc/phpwiki/index.php/PBW%20ethics) Now there was some disagreement back then on the content, but since anyone can edit, isn't it the ideal place for such a list?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually that might be the best place for it.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Oh hey Fyron, not sure how we missed this one....

Players unilaterally declaring allied victory.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Slynky]

Not sure "Intelligence Projects" should be listed. First of all, it's most assuredly not in the realm of gamey. Secondly, it's really just one item of a list of items any person creating a game might want to disallow. For instance, a person could create a game that didn't use missiles or mines or stellar manip. Not because they are gamey...just to create a game without that particular component. To me, intel is just another feature/item (or whatever) that a person might not want in their game. So, I'd suggest removing it and adding a item called (something like) "Areas not allowed as specified at game setup (e.g., intel, ruins, mines, etc.)"

Just a thought.

[Fyron]

Again, this is not a discussion thread. All I will say is that the entire Intelligence system of SE4 is completely screwey, and using it is very, very gamey. It stays on the list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And either way, it is something that every game host needs to sit down and think about wether allowing it or not in the game. It is just such a horrible system that it generally has the effect of ruining games instead of making them more fun.

[ July 28, 2003, 06:14: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Actually that might be the best place for it.

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope. I doubt most people read it very often. I know I certainly do not read it very often. Being on the game creation place at PBW is THE BEST place for this to be. It can be in both places, sure. But, it is still imperative that it be on the PBW site.

Didn't mean to have two Posts... oh well... not as if my post count is really affected by it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Mothballing ships to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
23. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.

[ July 28, 2003, 06:17: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by geoschmo:
Actually that might be the best place for it.

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope. I doubt most people read it very often. I know I certainly do not read it very often. Being on the game creation place at PBW is THE BEST place for this to be. It can be in both places, sure. But, it is still imperative that it be on the PBW site.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wasn't really clear on what I meant there. I still intend to update the game creation page to remind owners to consider these points. But per our conversation Last night I never intended to include the whole list in the game setup script. I was just going to briefly mention it and include a link to a page with the complete updated list. As far as where to put the updated list I the Encyclopedia Malfadorica is ideal because then the community can contribute to keeping it updated.

Geoschmo

[Asmala]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

21. Mothballing ships to get around the maximum ship limits.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mothballing ships won't get you over the maximum limit.

[Stone Mill]

Originally posted:

15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought this was inconsequential; first one empires mines are swept, then the next. All you need is 100 minesweeping capability.

[spoon]

The Talisman
Bezerker

[Arkcon]

Oh heck, while we're attempting a cannonical list :

16 and one half: Missing several turns without explanation

[ July 28, 2003, 16:47: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[Slick]

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted:

15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought this was inconsequential; first one empires mines are swept, then the next. All you need is 100 minesweeping capability.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, but no sir. I would provide witnesses, but all of them are in dead fleets. The (default) limit is 100 mines per sector per empire. This means that the maximum number of mines in a sector is 100 * (No. of players). Note that 2 players must have a peace treaty in order to co-mine a sector. They still follow the rule of only enemy mines "attack" your ships. But if you don't have a peace treaty with the owners of those mines, you could potentially face 100 * (No. of players -1) mines in a sector. So 100 minesweeping capability will NOT protect you against this tactic. I am not sure on the order of sweeping in this case. Probably like the default: first laid = first swept.

On the subject of "gamey", I think this is perfectly legitimate gameplay.

Slick.

[ July 28, 2003, 16:47: Message edited by: Slick ]

[Fyron]

On the subject of "gamey", I think this is perfectly legitimate gameplay.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, please post nothing of this sort in this thread. It does not matter if you think a particular item is gamey or not. Some people do, so it goes on the list.

Originally posted by Asmala:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

21. Mothballing ships to get around the maximum ship limits.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mothballing ships won't get you over the maximum limit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it will. Mothballed ships do not count towards your ship total.

[ July 28, 2003, 17:53: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Asmala:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

21. Mothballing ships to get around the maximum ship limits.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mothballing ships won't get you over the maximum limit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it will. Mothballed ships do not count towards your ship total.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Asmala is correct here. I explained this the Last time it came up but you might have missed it. It was towards the end of the conversation.

The mothballed ships don't show up in the score screen, but they do show up in the ships screen and they will stop you from building new ships and getting over the ship limit.

Geoschmo

[ July 28, 2003, 17:56: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by spoon:
The Talisman
Bezerker<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">These don't really fit the role of gamey tactics. Though technically, Berzerkers falls under the min/maxing Category, and Talismans does sort of too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geo:
Seems I was mislead in a game I was hosting with a 100 ship limit. Oh well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.

[ July 28, 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Stone Mill]

Originally posted by Slick:
So 100 minesweeping capability will NOT protect you against this tactic. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I think you are a little off with this statement-

The way the game engine works, an empire's mines are swept one at a time, soo 100 minesweeping capability is applied each time. Therefore, a player is protected against needing to sweep more that 100 at a point no matter how many empires lay mines there.

I do remember asking this specifically a while back. And in all my games, I've seen it work this way, IIRC.

[Slick]

I can say from experience that if there are more than 100 enemy mines in a sector from 2 or more enemy empires, having 100 minsweepers will sweep the first 100 and your ship(s) WILL be damaged by the remainder. I have seen this on more than one occasion. Of course, if your fleet can sweep more than the number of mines in the sector, they will all be swept, obviously.

Slick.

[Loser]

Run tests. Trade Saves.

[Slynky]

Originally posted by Slick:
I can say from experience that if there are more than 100 enemy mines in a sector from 2 or more enemy empires, having 100 minsweepers will sweep the first 100 and your ship(s) WILL be damaged by the remainder. I have seen this on more than one occasion. Of course, if your fleet can sweep more than the number of mines in the sector, they will all be swept, obviously.

Slick.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gotta back Slick up on this one. In the Challenge Match, I've run into more than 100 mines in a sector twice now and taken a lot of damage from the ones above 100 that were left.

[Fyron]

If you want to discuss the mines further, please take it to a different thread.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
If you want to discuss the mines further, please take it to a different thread.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why ? They address a VERY important point which was actually introduced by you as a "gamey" or "exploits" tactic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Fyron]

No Oleg. This thread is not for discussions of what is gamey or what is not gamey. It is for compiling a list of what MIGHT BE considered gamey by some people. If you want to talk about what is gamey or not in your opinion, do it elsewhere.

[Fyron]

So back to list complilation...

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.

[PvK]

I think you probably do want to add the Talisman, as it's come up in this context. So has combining Talisman with low aggressiveness.

How about annoying/deceptive shipsets?

How about ramming?

PvK

[tesco samoa]

Oleg I created a thread to talk about this list....

So not to cluter up the list http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[oleg]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No Oleg. This thread is not for discussions of what is gamey or what is not gamey. It is for compiling a list of what MIGHT BE considered gamey by some people. If you want to talk about what is gamey or not in your opinion, do it elsewhere.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First of all, why you are so rude ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Second, you want to compile a list of what MIGHT BE considered gamey by some people. OK, building better ships than mine - it is definetly gamey by my standarts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Wonna to include it ?

[oleg]

Sorry, tesco, you posted while I was typing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I am ejecting myself from here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Fyron]

Well... I have only typed that post 10 or so times already... sorry for seeming rude.

About building better ships, that has nothing to do with gameyness, just skill.

PvK, check here (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009642) about ramming.

[Fyron]

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.
23. Talismans.
24. Using annoying/deceptive shipsets and informing people of what ship set you will be using prior to game start.

[Grandpa Kim]

A few possibles you may want to add:

Emergency building when there is no emergency.

Playing on a map you made yourself.

Selecting low ship and unit limits.

If these are considered gamey, there are very few proponents so you may want to skip them.

[Fyron]

So have we got them all now?

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.
23. Talismans.
24. Using annoying/deceptive shipsets and informing people of what ship set you will be using prior to game start.
25. Emergency building when there is no emergency.

[ July 30, 2003, 08:14: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Stone Mill]

Pre-arranged alliances? (i.e. the Eastern Bloc incident)

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
Pre-arranged alliances? (i.e. the Eastern Bloc incident)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How could I forget? My very first hosted game was ruined by this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.
23. Talismans.
24. Using annoying/deceptive shipsets and informing people of what ship set you will be using prior to game start.
25. Emergency building when there is no emergency.
26. Pre-arranged alliances in non-explicitly team games.

[ July 30, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Grandpa Kim]

Ruins.

[Stone Mill]

Even I consider this to be gamey... and the interface will allow it...

Offering tech you do not possess in a trade! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

The game does not verify what you offer, you can offer anything, and receive a bunch of tech for nothing. It's the honor system.

Most times when this happens, this can be viewed as a breach of honor, and that player will not be liked very much.

Gray areas do apply, like offering a gift for expectation of a gift in return... but before the return gift can be offered, your empire relations go sour, and you go to war, which kind of ruins the whole gift exchanging thing.

[Fyron]

Again, your opinions on the gameyness of an action are not for this thread. Only suggestions for the list. See the Talk thread for my response.

[Stone Mill]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Again, your opinions on the gameyness of an action are not for this thread. Only suggestions for the list. See the Talk thread for my response.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whoops... OK I got it now.

[Grandpa Kim]

Using an empty (no population) colonizer to:
-acquire ruin tech in hostile territory
-set up an outpost in hostile territory
-prevent enemy capture of a planet, especially a desirable planet. (Usually done in disputed territory.

[rdouglass]

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
Even I consider this to be gamey... and the interface will allow it...

Offering tech you do not possess in a trade! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

The game does not verify what you offer, you can offer anything....<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is this true? ..or are you talking about levels? ISTR that any tech I don't have (for instance, a colonizing tech), doesn't show up in my "Give" list; only in the "I Want" list.

Or am I losing it again.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I'm at work so don't have it in front of me...

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by rdouglass:
Is this true? ..or are you talking about levels? ISTR that any tech I don't have (for instance, a colonizing tech), doesn't show up in my "Give" list; only in the "I Want" list.

Or am I losing it again.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I'm at work so don't have it in front of me...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You aren't losing it. He's talking about levels. ie. offering 6 levels of Ship construction when you only have 5. The other guy thinks he's getting Battle Cruisers, when all he gets is Cruisers, or nothing at all if he already has Cruisers.

Geoschmo

[DavidG]

It occured to me that #1 might need to be expanded/clarified to:

1. Trading with AIs or with human empires that you know are currently under AI control.

[Fyron]

Any more suggestions?

1. Trading with AIs or with human empires that you know are currently under AI control.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.
23. Talismans.
24. Using annoying/deceptive shipsets and informing people of what ship set you will be using prior to game start.
25. Emergency building when there is no emergency.
26. Pre-arranged alliances in non-explicitly team games.
27. Using an empty (no population) colonizer to:
-acquire ruin tech in hostile territory
-set up an outpost in hostile territory
-prevent enemy capture of a planet, especially a desirable planet. (Usually done in disputed territory.

[Suicide Junkie]

25. Emergency building when there is no emergency.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How is that gamey? You overpay for it later with the 25% cool-off rate, and overall your build rate decreases when using E-build.

It would be like saying you're not allowed to overwork your planets in SE3.

[ August 25, 2003, 15:24: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Tigbit]

Too many Posts to see if this was mentioned yet. I personally like this one:

Laying 99 mines on a WP (game limit 100) then arriving with another minelayer the next turn and laying an additional 20-30 mines, thus beating the 100 mine limit.

But let's face it, 90% of these things "some may consider cheating" are simply using the game to it's full potential. Like tech trading. You may consider it cheating to ally with someone and quickly max out eachother's tech, but in reality it's good practice. Now, once the list here is complete, I suggest going to Malfador and presenting it to them and then ask them to cross out those items in the list THEY do not consider cheating and part of the game.

Just an idea.

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Tigbit:
Laying 99 mines on a WP (game limit 100) then arriving with another minelayer the next turn and laying an additional 20-30 mines, thus beating the 100 mine limit.
Just an idea.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just a quick heads up. Exploit removed in latest patch. 'SOk to miss it. This list is long. But the new gamey tactic is two allies laying 100 mines each against a common enemy. Not gamey IMHO, maybe they need to be there for use against each other?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">25. Emergency building when there is no emergency.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How is that gamey? You overpay for it later with the 25% cool-off rate, and overall your build rate decreases when using E-build.

It would be like saying you're not allowed to overwork your planets in SE3.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, this is not a list of things that are gamey, but things that might be gamey. Some people consider it gamey, so it is on the list.

But let's face it, 90% of these things "some may consider cheating" are simply using the game to it's full potential. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> But the new gamey tactic is two allies laying 100 mines each against a common enemy. Not gamey IMHO, maybe they need to be there for use against each other? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, comments on whether something is gamey or not are not for this thread. This is only to collect what some people consider gamey. Please make these comments elsewhere.

[ August 25, 2003, 19:26: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Fyron]

Any more suggestions?

1. Trading with AIs or with human empires that you know are currently under AI control.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.
23. Talismans.
24. Using annoying/deceptive shipsets and informing people of what ship set you will be using prior to game start.
25. Emergency building when there is no emergency.
26. Pre-arranged alliances in non-explicitly team games.
27. Using an empty (no population) colonizer to:
-acquire ruin tech in hostile territory
-set up an outpost in hostile territory
-prevent enemy capture of a planet, especially a desirable planet. (Usually done in disputed territory.

[Cheeze]

28.Playing the game....that is SOOOOO gamey!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Do cheap Posts count as gamey? Or is that an exploit?

[Liudas]

how about taking advantage of turn replys? Like you attack someone and loose and for some reason, the turn is replayed and you make it differently.

[Liudas]

And looking in other people`s empire when they forgot to put on password.

[Captain Kwok]

Imperator Fyron said:
27. Using an empty (no population) colonizer to:
-acquire ruin tech in hostile territory
-set up an outpost in hostile territory
-prevent enemy capture of a planet, especially a desirable planet. (Usually done in disputed territory)



Hmm. I don't think any of these are too cheesey unless used against the AI. And I'm making a mental note for our next common pbw game. You can't capture a planet with no population?

[geoschmo]

Captain Kwok said:
And I'm making a mental note for our next common pbw game. You can't capture a planet with no population?

Not with troops. There's a bug which makes the troop transport not approach and drop troops on a world with no population. But it's easy enough to just glass the colony and then colonize it yourself. It may be a "cheezy" tactic, but it's not a very effective one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

So many of those show the "young lion" thing. To consider anything short of head-2-head combat as a cheesy tactic. I tend to win most of my games by diplomacy, even games which dont have diplomacy options in the game.

[Fyron]

Please stop posting discussions in this thread. As per the original post, it is only for gathering a list of what may or may not be considered gamey. For the purposes of the list, it does not matter if you do not consider a particular item to be gamey, someone else did.

[DeKaye]

Are you still accepting suggestions for this list?
How about planting star distroyers at everyone's star but your own, enemies and non enemies alike and distroying them all at once. Done under cloak.

[Fyron]

That is more of a sneaky tactic than gamey, isn't it? Gamey is more like an exploit of what seems to be an intended rule.

And yes, the list is always open.

[DeKaye]

Okay, mis understood gamey. Thanks.

[Atrocities]

I have for the list if it applies.

Luring your Ally to bring a huge fleet into a system to "help you" then blowing up the star destroying his fleet.

[Thermodyne]

The biggest complaint I have is the groups of people who bring pre established alliances into large PBW games. If it is announced beforehand, that's fine. But when it becomes apparent 20 turn in that several of the players are pre aligned, it is really pushing the limits of ethical game play. And to make it worse, these are often allegedly roomies and kin and often using the same IP address.

[NullAshton]

28. Turtling, then holding a system gravitational shield in the queue with one turn remaining. Scrap your existing shield, open a warppoint, send ships through, close the warppoint, then let the shield finish.

[Slick]

First this:


Imperator Fyron said:
Please stop posting discussions in this thread. As per the original post, it is only for gathering a list of what may or may not be considered gamey. For the purposes of the list, it does not matter if you do not consider a particular item to be gamey, someone else did.



Then 2 posts later, this:

Imperator Fyron said:
That is more of a sneaky tactic than gamey, isn't it? Gamey is more like an exploit of what seems to be an intended rule.

And yes, the list is always open.

[Alneyan]

Methinks there is no contradiction between those two posts: Fyron does not wish posts saying that "entry 748 isn't gamey", but he is always open to suggestions for further entries.

So, posts shouldn't discuss already existing entries, but they should add new items not currently on the list.

*Gets out of the Ramming Geo's way*

[geoschmo]

You wouldn't be saying that Fryon made posts that are inconsistant would you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[geoschmo]

Alneyan said:
Methinks there is no contradiction between those two posts: Fyron does not wish posts saying that "entry 748 isn't gamey", but he is always open to suggestions for further entries.

So, posts shouldn't discuss already existing entries, but they should add new items not currently on the list.

Execpt that he did make a statement of judgement saying a particular post was "Sneaky" instead of Gamey, in direct contradiction to what he had previously requested. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Fyron]

As the organizer of the list, I feel it is more polite to tell the person that a posted tactic does not qualify as gamey, rather than just ignoring said person. Gamey tactics must have some element of seeming like cheating or being really cheesey. I am not going to add every sneaky but perfectly valid tactic to the list. As Alneyan stated, there is a big difference between me telling a person that a tactic does not qualify as gamey and people posting contrary opinions of gamey items. If I did not reject non-gamey items, we could have literally anything on the list... We could even add "being Geoschmo." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif There is no contradiction here, as I was not discussing the gameyness of the issue, merely rejecting it as potentially gamey.


NullAshton said:
28. Turtling, then holding a system gravitational shield in the queue with one turn remaining. Scrap your existing shield, open a warppoint, send ships through, close the warppoint, then let the shield finish.

There is this one on the list:

16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.

Perhaps a 16a instead.

[inigma]

29. Any form of using black holes as an offensive weapon extensively, especially when used in systems not originally your own before hostilities broke out.

Ecologically unsound, and environmentally destructive, blackhole-filled galaxies are not much fun to play in, and such a tactic denies any future rebuilding effort should peace be made again, except for the expensive and time-consuming investment of using black hole neutralizers, star creators, and then building ring/sphere worlds in the empty systems.

Star destroyers should be the limit in offensive Stellar Manipulation weapon use, as at least with a destroyed star, planets can be made out of the asteroids again during peacetime.

[Emperor's Child]

29. Mining ally worlds without their knowledge in advance of hostilities.

[Captain Kwok]

I also maintain a response to the original gamey tactics thread at my site:
http://www.captainkwok.net/articles.php

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

31. Signing up multiple times on PBW without anyone else knowing and entering a game where half of the players are you, acting like you're at war, while you're actually building up massive invasion fleets. Once they're done, you make Partnerships with all of yourself and crush all opposition in not more than a few years.

32. Contacting other players from a game you're in by e-mail and negotiate an unofficial alliance without anyone else knowing.

33. Always attacking the same person relentlessly just because he dealt you a major can of whoop-a** in an earlier game. (i.e. Holding a grudge)