Massive Power Outage [Archive]

Baron Munchausen

August 15th, 2003, 04:13 AM

The word on CNN and Foxnews (yes, I follow both because even the one that has trademarked 'Fair & Balanced' -- isn't... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) is that a power station in the Niagara Falls area was hit by lightning. This naturally caused a few circuit-breakers to trip, and then the inevitable cascade occurred where the increased demand from the suddenly dark power grid caused an adjacent power system to also trip its breakers, and then even more demand from the larger dark grid caused another adjacent grid to trip its breakers, and... you know how it goes.

This propogated all the way to the coast blacking out at least 80 percent of New York State and NYC itself, and all the way to the end of Lake Erie and blacked out Detroit (taking Cleveland and Toledo out also), and crossed the Niagara River and blacked out large areas of Ontario, including Toronto. Large chunks of adjacent New England states are down, such as Connecticut. Several nuclear power plants were sent into emergency shutdown, and it is going to take a while to restart those. This is apparently the largest power failure ever to occur in North America.

Michigan Public Radio is reporting that the local power people claim it will take ALL WEEKEND to completely restore power in Detroit and surrounds. Wow... Apparently they have to start with lower loads (rural stuff) and build up. So why is NYC on track to be back up in 'hours' not days? Hmm...

[ August 15, 2003, 04:04: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Katchoo

August 15th, 2003, 04:41 AM

Power in my corner of Ottawa came back Online around 10pm EST.

Television service is still down right now and probably won't be up till morning.

I'd like to think I made the best of the situation. I went out and tossed a football around with some of the neighboors until it got too dark, and then took a walk around the surrounding blocks to see what was happening (or not happening).

Dang.. Apparently the people living across from our townhouse left food on the stove when the power went off and left the house. When the power came back on, so did the stove. The Fire Department is outside now. Damn, whatever was burning sure smells horrible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif The fire is out now though. That'll be a nice surprise for those people when they get home http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Arkcon

August 15th, 2003, 04:43 AM

hmmmmmmmmmm

HMMMMMMMMMM

MMMMMMM

Ah. Powered up again. Hmm, feels good.

Oh, I just had to post, we have power again. I'm not gonna abuse this, so I just logged on it see what caused it. Google News and Reuters are still down. But I knew our groop would have a "fair and balanced" answer. Thanks, Baron

Narrew

August 15th, 2003, 05:32 AM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif your funny Baron, I know your dissing Fox because of their "Fair and Balanced" comment, but GOD if your watching CNN (whos slogan should be the Communist News Network for their one sided view).

I guess after all these years in the US, the liberal media has had a strangle hold on its viewers, I guess I can (kind of) see where a company like Fox trying to be fair and balanced will seem to be extreme in liberals eyes.

Me, I just say its about damn time some company went against the norm and do what FOX News is doing.

Now saying that, I can't believe that the black out is getting this much damn air time. Do they think the world revolves around N.Y.? AND FOX News pre-empted Brit Hume, thats the show I like to watch, they had Gibson balbbing on and on (ohh he is a dip by the way).

oh, hope I didn't derail this thread AND finally I just went over 200 Posts weee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

General Woundwort

August 15th, 2003, 10:45 AM

Same down here in Babylon-on-the-Potomac, Narrew. The local news radio station was broadcasting the national news' every-10-minute update on the power outage (yep, it's still out...) and every half hour it was "how the outage is affecting DC" (unless you wanted to travel to the blacked-out areas by plane or train, not at all).

Makes you wonder, though, at the fragility of this technological support net we've built for ourselves...

Thermodyne

August 15th, 2003, 03:58 PM

Looks like the lightning strike was ***-covering, there is news about a transmission failure in Canada starting to see the light of day. The sudden voltage drop causes a cascading disconnect-shutdown event that was designed to protect the generators from burnout like occurred in the 60�s. But it also requires a manual reset that requires trained man power on site. These men have been, for the most part, victims of deregulation and profit maximizing. There is a message in all of this. The system put in place decades ago to protect the generating plants from suffering burnouts during a sudden voltage drop are no longer usable. Deregulation of the power industry has allowed them to lay off the people needed to service this system in an event like this. They simply do not have the manpower to go out and reconfigure the switches. Storm damage during the Last few years has uncovered the shortcomings of pooled-contract line crews, perhaps now the government will decide that the power industry is not capable of policing itself, and guaranteeing an up-to-date, reliable power system.

Baron Munchausen

August 15th, 2003, 04:14 PM

There are multiple explanations surfacing now, which is no surprise. Everyone will try to blame everyone else until the proof can be found to nail down the cause.

Narrew:

You're pretty funny too, thinking that any of the news channels are any more or less unreliable than any of the others. But to trademark the phrase 'Fair & Balanced' is a whole new level of sleaziness.

[ August 15, 2003, 15:15: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

TerranC

August 15th, 2003, 06:05 PM

geez, why must we always bring politics into discussions?

Loser

August 15th, 2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by TerranC:
geez, why must we always bring politics into discussions?They were already there, you smell them buggers? They're hiding, but they're in there.

Captain Kwok

August 15th, 2003, 08:33 PM

Hurray!

Back up and running! Fortunately live across the street from an ambulance station, so my power grid should be on despite rolling blackouts!

Parasite

August 15th, 2003, 08:44 PM

I can see it now. The DSL techs and the Phone techs get together and find out why Geo doesn't have DSL. "If we just flip this switch, PBW will be back!"... FLIP... POW!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif It is now a choice between lighting the NorthEast or having PBW? I know what I would pick! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Ohio IS where it started. (P.S. PBW is down, sorry to get your hopes up)

geoschmo

August 15th, 2003, 08:52 PM

Only part of Ohio hit was Cleveland and that's very far from where I live. Only problem we've had with the blackout is watching the ad nauseum reports on the news. Has anyone at the networks conidered that those not affected by the blackout aren't all that interested, and those affected can't watch it on tv anyway? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Loser

August 15th, 2003, 09:08 PM

kill (http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/) your (http://www2.localaccess.com/hardebeck/) TV (http://www2.localaccess.com/hardebeck/killtv2.htm).

rdouglass

August 15th, 2003, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
kill (http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/) your (http://www2.localaccess.com/hardebeck/) TV (http://www2.localaccess.com/hardebeck/killtv2.htm).I agree with what those sites say, but did you notice (or at least I couldn't find any) no stats about Internet or computer usage? In my home, PC's are used about as much (if not more) than TV's. And the TV(s) is/are playing a movie (DVD, VHS, etc.) more often than "regular" television.

Sorry, bak on topic. I agree also w/ Geo; if it doesn't affect me, I really don't want to watch 8 hours of live coverage of people milling about the streets of NYC....

Just my $.02...

[ August 15, 2003, 20:20: Message edited by: rdouglass ]

August 15th, 2003, 09:20 PM

lost power at ROUGHYLY 4pm Last night.
spent the night in one part of toronto, where the had power restored at 4 this morning.

I didnt get power back at home till 3pm today.

and I've been listening to the radio all day.

apparently, according to what I heard.. some group that was made to monitor the entire power grid of the north east (yes, both canadians and americans make up this group) said the cause was a lightning strike.

there's the threat of rotation black outs for all ontarians, as well, we've been asked to keep air conditioners off, power use to a minimum, and spare water.

dont ask me what water has to do with power outages... I just see them find more ways to make us hot. lol

geoschmo

August 15th, 2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by E3:
dont ask me what water has to do with power outages... I just see them find more ways to make us hot. lolThe water that comes to your house from those giant water tanks up the hill there is fed by gravity, but without electricity they can't run the pumps that replenish the water in those tanks as it comes out. Used sparingly those tanks can Last a few days. On normal usage they would probably be depleted in a few hours.

Geoschmo

Loser

August 15th, 2003, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by rdouglass:
I agree with what those sites say, but did you notice (or at least I couldn't find any) no stats about Internet or computer usage? The Internet, and computer games as well, could certainly be considered a 'waste of time', but at least it's a waste that leaves me with an illusion of accomplishment. ("Take that Innocent III!")

Baron Munchausen

August 16th, 2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Only part of Ohio hit was Cleveland and that's very far from where I live. Only problem we've had with the blackout is watching the ad nauseum reports on the news. Has anyone at the networks conidered that those not affected by the blackout aren't all that interested, and those affected can't watch it on tv anyway? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Ah, but Geo you've forgotten the cardinal rule of Journalism. If it happens to Journalists it's news! So of course anything that happens in New York (home of the networks) or any other city with a large group of journalists concentrated together (Atlanta, Los Angeles, etc...) it's absolutely vital national interest and must be covered...

Baron Munchausen

August 16th, 2003, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by rdouglass:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Loser:
kill (http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/) your (http://www2.localaccess.com/hardebeck/) TV (http://www2.localaccess.com/hardebeck/killtv2.htm).I agree with what those sites say, but did you notice (or at least I couldn't find any) no stats about Internet or computer usage? In my home, PC's are used about as much (if not more) than TV's. And the TV(s) is/are playing a movie (DVD, VHS, etc.) more often than "regular" television.

Sorry, bak on topic. I agree also w/ Geo; if it doesn't affect me, I really don't want to watch 8 hours of live coverage of people milling about the streets of NYC....

Just my $.02...<hr /></blockquote>There was a survey of some sort recently published by some media group that showed 18-35 year-olds are now spending more time surfing than watching television. Needless to say the TV networks will be paranoid about this, and the advertizing execs will be furiously brainstorming for ways to cram more advertizing into web pages. I've got an excellent pop-up and banner filter myself and hardly see ads anymore. Very nice.

jimbob

August 16th, 2003, 12:31 AM

Wow! Looks like I just missed all the fun over there in Central Canada/Eastern USA. Just got back to Alberta Tuesday - missed the Air Canada service nightmare by a day, then missed the whole region going dark by two days.

CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Communists... er Corporation) gave us nothing but the power-outage all night long. It's not surprising as the head offices are in Toronto, and our nation's capital, Ottawa, was also blacked out. Washington was safe, right?

They'd better figure out the power grid quick, cause this little episode just alerted the terrorist to America's achilles heel. Try this on for size: terrorist cell #1, 2 and 3 hit three power stations in either Canada or the USA on the same night. Terrorist cells # 4, 5, 6, 7, 8... are instructed to do their nasty businesses on any night that goes dark (proceed by foot or bike). Sounds like a recipe for total and complete pain to me.

[ August 15, 2003, 23:32: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Gryphin

August 16th, 2003, 01:08 AM

Which news channle?
You can do what I do:
Read this forum. If it is big. If it is important. It will get posted here.

Ok, I admit I also scan the headlines of the newspapers and listen to the TV in Duncan Donuts / Baskin Robins, (a Donut shop and icream vendor with a TV in most outlets.)

Katchoo

August 16th, 2003, 08:27 AM

Well the power has been going on and off all day here. We've been told to expect rolling blackouts through the weekend.

But on a personal note, I may have the Forum's first casualty of the blackouts:

My Primary Hard Drive is dead. She's making the same grinding noise my smaller Drive did Last year, and that Drive had to be shipped to Maxtor for replacement. When I initially got power restored Last night the Hard Drive seemed to boot fine, but after about 5 mins on the Desktop the System started to stall, and I got a lovely "authenticating installer" message from an unknown program. I shut the System down right away, but when I tried turning the computer back on the BIOS wouldn't read the Primary Drive anymore. I even plugged the Drive into a 2nd computer we have in the house and it can't be detected in that System either.

Fortunately I did save almost all my DoGa models onto a ZIP Disk. I say "almost all" because there are a few Neo-Standard images for the Psycho Trapper set which I completed after I had done the inital save. All the in-game BMPs and AI files are gone though, but they can be replaced with a bit of elbow grease. I'm more upset with the new web pages I had built which were going to be debuted when the set was released. Oh well, more elbow work.

Good thing I only threw out my shoulder while playing football yesterday, and not my elbow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I don't know for certain if the blackout helped bring the Drive into the hands of the Reaper, especially since I apparently had a mystery program tying to install something. Coincidences do happen afterall.

To Kwok & Hugh and the others that shared about their Hard Drive failures from a few months back, I say thank you! I likely wouldn't have backed anything up if that string of bad luck you guys had eariler hadn't hit. Your words of caution have saved at least one person.

Although in truth, i'd gladly suffer a Drive failure if the failure would have in some way prevented the failure Kwok & Hugh had. The work they lost greatly overshadows what i've been able to save.

Oh well, cyber life goes on. Fortunately the 13GB Drive that was replaced Last year is still working well, so she'll do while I get the 40GB replaced. Oh well, it's nearly time for a massive upgrade to my computer anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Oh, and did I mention that the BLaster Worm apparently found it's way onto my 13GB Drive, which hasen't been used since Last September? Even weirder is that the BLaster Worm haden't infected my 40GB (Primary) Drive at all.

Oh well, I better stop before I derail this Thread. That's Narf's & GW's job http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

(edited to fix avatar problem)

[ August 17, 2003, 00:36: Message edited by: Katchoo ]

Loser

August 16th, 2003, 02:17 PM

Question for the folks in the black outs:

How's the riot going?

Is there any looting?

Was there even a riot?

Why or why not?

You know if this happened in certain other cities (L.A., Dallas, Denver) there would be rampant looting. Hell, around here we know which stores carry 'riot gear' and tend to know when the riots are going to happen, some of us road-trip it up to Denver to participate in, watch, or just be around such events. Are they even looting in Detroit? (Detroit was hit, right?)

[ August 16, 2003, 13:19: Message edited by: Loser ]

August 16th, 2003, 03:05 PM

here in Toronto, there was no rioting, I think very little looting (the police recorded less than 100 looting related calls according to the radio), and we actualy had citizens directing traffic, fairly well too, at intersections without lights and cops!

TerranC

August 16th, 2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
How's the riot going?

Is there any looting?

Was there even a riot?

Why or why not?

You know if this happened in certain other cities (L.A., Dallas, Denver) there would be rampant looting. Hell, around here we know which stores carry 'riot gear' and tend to know when the riots are going to happen, some of us road-trip it up to Denver to participate in, watch, or just be around such events. Are they even looting in Detroit? (Detroit was hit, right?)There were no riots.

There was no looting.

There were no riots.

Because they were civilized people, and it's senseless to loot when the shops are all manned, police and fire crews were fully crewed and patrolling the city, and when you think that this is another terrorist attack where anybody in a building could lose their lives.

[ August 16, 2003, 17:02: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Captain Kwok

August 16th, 2003, 03:30 PM

TerranC:

Detroit was hit too...

DavidG

August 16th, 2003, 05:58 PM

So I gather it now seems the power failure was cause by something in Cleveland. so what's up with the NY mayor (or perhaps it was the Governor) saying 'definatly absolutely it was caused by something in Canada' (not an exact quote) Good to know we can trust the politicians. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Hmm Cause is in Ohio, Incompentent service guys trying to fix PBW in Ohio... Conicidence? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

TerranC

August 16th, 2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
TerranC:

Detroit was hit too...It was?

*looks over yesterday's globe and mail's map*

Shoot. Never mind then.

tesco samoa

August 16th, 2003, 06:27 PM

hi. i will be on and off ( i got power back Last night at 10 pm ) but were scheduled for 120 minutes up and down to about wed or thursday.

On another note the grocery store where i work part time had to get rid of everything. ( 700,000 dollars worth easy )

Captain Kwok

August 16th, 2003, 06:31 PM

It seems Cleveland got the worst of power outrage, since their water supply got really messed up too.

My power was out from 4.15pm on Thu until 3.40am Fri morning. I was lucky that I'm on the same grid as an ambulance station and major telephone switching center, so I never got subjected to any of the rolling blackouts yesterday - even though all the area surrounding me was out for a long time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I was annoyed by many people that continued to run their a/c and even did laundry in my building, while they were asking not to run a/c and major appliances so they could get power to all people. So selfish!

I just hope they find the cause of this problem and make sure it doesn't happen again! I also hope this makes people more aware of the need to conserve electricity. Us North Americans are so greedy when it comes to power, it serves us right to lose it more often! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ August 16, 2003, 17:34: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Mathias_Ice

August 17th, 2003, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:

I was annoyed by many people that continued to run their a/c and even did laundry in my building, while they were asking not to run a/c and major appliances so they could get power to all people. So selfish! I assume you are typing this up from your solar powered PC so as not to be wasting power that should be going to the ambulance station or telephone switch. I'd hate to see a human life lost because you were using up that valuable electricity in such a greedy fashion as posting a message on the internet.

I just hope they find the cause of this problem and make sure it doesn't happen again! I also hope this makes people more aware of the need to conserve electricity. Us North Americans are so greedy when it comes to power, it serves us right to lose it more often! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif You're joking, right? Feel free to be proactive in this situation. I'm sure some sub-Saharan clan of nomads would be happy to accept you into there family. Otherwise be very cautious of the rocks you throw around in you air-conditioned glass house, you might break your refrigorator or computer monitor.

I've heard conservation being preached for thirty years and while the concept has its merits, what needs to happen is to have the "Not in my Backyard" crowd cut off the grid, letting them fend for themselves in their own air-conditioned glass houses. New transmission lines need to be built, but mostly new power plants need to be built to keep up with our expanding economies and societies.

Captain Kwok

August 17th, 2003, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Mathias_Ice:
I assume you are typing this up from your solar powered PC so as not to be wasting power that should be going to the ambulance station or telephone switch. I'd hate to see a human life lost because you were using up that valuable electricity in such a greedy fashion as posting a message on the internet.
Not quite what I meant!!!

I was actually referring to the fact yesterday that when their was only 50-60% of the electricity available and many people had been without power in their neighbourhoods for over a day that those who had power did not listen to requests to reduce their consumption so that people without power might get a chance to get some and perhaps save their food in the refrigerator etc.

I'm not trying to be self-righteous nor do I want to a Sub-Saharan nomad, but I do make some efforts to reduce my consumption. Until better infrastructure is in place, it's important to conserve to prevent brownouts, higher energy costs, pollution, etc.

I think many gov't institutions, industries, and big business could take measures that would reduce their energy usage and costs with no negative effect on their bottom line. They're the biggest offenders.

Mathias_Ice

August 17th, 2003, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
I think many gov't institutions, industries, and big business could take measures that would reduce their energy usage and costs with no negative effect on their bottom line. They're the biggest offenders.I think the number I saw was corporations used about 40% of energy produced. You'd think they would be doing a fair job at conservation if for no other reason than to increase profits. Of course somewhere the cost/benefit ratio becomes the dominate factor. I see the gov't as being a prime place for us to conserve. I propose we get rid of about 90% of it as we really don't need it anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I don't see the gov't conserving too much, let's face it, if they have a problem paying their light bill, they know where to get more money.

Thermodyne

August 17th, 2003, 03:53 AM

http://globalsecurity.org/eye/black-out_030814_dmsp_comp-nyc.htm

Click on the arrows to see before and after

Suicide Junkie

August 17th, 2003, 05:23 AM

You know what those pictures say to me?

"Dude! That's a LOT OF CARS!"

DavidG

August 17th, 2003, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mathias_Ice:
I assume you are typing this up from your solar powered PC so as not to be wasting power that should be going to the ambulance station or telephone switch. I'd hate to see a human life lost because you were using up that valuable electricity in such a greedy fashion as posting a message on the internet.
Not quite what I meant!!!

I was actually referring to the fact yesterday that when their was only 50-60% of the electricity available and many people had been without power in their neighbourhoods for over a day that those who had power did not listen to requests to reduce their consumption so that people without power might get a chance to get some and perhaps save their food in the refrigerator etc.
<hr /></blockquote>I think the real problem is that few people believe this is true for 2 reasons I think.

Reason 1. A politician (Ernie Eves our premier) told us to do this. Does anyone believe anything a politician says or think they know what their talking about (see my previous post re the mayor of NY) It's even harder to believe the premier when he declares a state of emergency and that non essential workers should stay home and then the local governments are announcing they 'expect ALL their employees to come to work'. Who do you believe??

Reason #2: Does anyone really understand how the power grid works? If I really believed that turning this computer off would allow Mr Jones to have his power back I would do it in a second. I think the media coverage pretty much tells us they don't know how the system works and few seem too. They tell us things like 20 power stations were 'knocked out'. What the hell does this mean??? If this came from the Pentagon and they were taking about stations in Iraq it would be pretty clear. How they were 'knocked out' here is certainly not.

Suicide Junkie

August 17th, 2003, 06:44 AM

Perhaps if they said:
We currently have only X MegaWatts of power... that's Y KiloWatts per household in the affected area.

Here's a list of common household items and the power they use up. Are you using more than your share?
Then end with something like: If you were to turn off three lightbulbs, then the Joneses would have enough to get their freezer back on.

Captain Kwok

August 17th, 2003, 06:55 AM

I think the reasoning behind it is, if you cut your power down to 50-60% of your normal use and most people did this - then the electrical demand would drop enough to allow more grids to be turned on. Of course, people are like "what blackout?" as soon as they get their power back on and could care less - I had people next door running 2 air conditioners for a 700-sq ft apartment! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Even worse was seeing some commercial signs downtown flashing away (did you even see Times Sq in NY - lights out for a lot of people - and they got their stupid ad signs flashing away?!).

There is a lot of wasted power out there. For example, the shopping center beside my apartment has a huge parking lot that is never more than 30% full at peak. At night, they have a whole set of lights (which shine into my window OFC) that they don't all need. They could easily go with half of them turned on and still have sufficient and safe lighting for their entire lot.

Anyways, it's late, but I would really like to see more renewable forms of energy being developed. I wonder if anyone has ever thought of putting a few solar panels & storage battery on traffic lights for these situations. At least it could provide enough power to operate the signals on most days, plus store enough energy to go through most of the night...

TerranC

August 17th, 2003, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Anyways, it's late, but I would really like to see more renewable forms of energy being developed. I wonder if anyone has ever thought of putting a few solar panels & storage battery on traffic lights for these situations. At least it could provide enough power to operate the signals on most days, plus store enough energy to go through most of the night...I thought Ontario already uses lots of Hydroelectricity plants.

And the blackout had nothing to do with power generators. It had everything to do with old, outdated power transmission systems.

August 17th, 2003, 03:33 PM

I havent heard the news or any updates since power came back on..... but while it was out I was glued to a radio.

If you ask me, one of the minor, yet highly confusing issues for the public is that the media doesnt seem to understand the diffrent between the power plants, and the power grid.

Durring the entire blackout, they kept on alluding to the fault being the power stations, not the power grid, even though it was highly obvious if they (power plants) werent linked together with such poor emergency measures in place, none of this would have happened.

Raging Deadstar

August 17th, 2003, 05:07 PM

I count myself lucky i live in the UK, that and i have quite a few candles in my bedroom. Though i can remember my cities Last powercut. I was alseep in the room next to the security alarm and it went off when the power cut. Boy did i get a shock

E3, regarding your signature. Nope, me and my friend have around 7 races between us, and we're in the process of setting up a history with them, and theres a few wars, mostly with mine against mine. Of course the fact you came up with those names does suggest you have issues hehe. I can't even pronounce them, and I have issues!

Now please Excuse me but it's nearing my birthday, and i'm expecting a nice present through the post *pulls out shotgun* dangnabit the postman have a tendency to leave packages outside in the rain! ahh here comes one now.....Yeehaw *shotgun bLast*

Think i replaced narf as forum insane guy yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Kamog

August 17th, 2003, 08:12 PM

I wondered why the pattern of lights after the blackout looked more or less the same as before, but less bright. I guess there was at least some partial power in most areas even during the blackout?

Then I finally understood what Suicide Junkie said about lots of cars.. Oh, that light is from all the cars!

[ August 17, 2003, 19:13: Message edited by: Kamog ]

tesco samoa

August 17th, 2003, 11:56 PM

/. had some fantastic piture links.

Ontario is blacked out ( all of it )
before

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightlights/blackout081403-20hrsbefore-text.jpg
after
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightlights/blackout081503-7hrsafter-text.jpg

I was reading about cnn's coverage.

They were reporting that there many out of control fires in Toronto and Rioting.

Gotta love CNN. They keep this up and fox will soon be seen as a real news company.

DavidG

August 18th, 2003, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by E3:
If you ask me, one of the minor, yet highly confusing issues for the public is that the media doesnt seem to understand the diffrent between the power plants, and the power grid.
You got that right. I'm still trying to find out from the news sites what actually happened. They really don't seem to know. Any Power engineers out there who can explain these terms?

"knocked out" ie the power station was knocked out.
"Cascade effect"
"fragile" ie the grid is fragile?? WTF??

Ragnarok

August 18th, 2003, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
You got that right. I'm still trying to find out from the news sites what actually happened. They really don't seem to know. Any Power engineers out there who can explain these terms?

"knocked out" ie the power station was knocked out.
"Cascade effect"
"fragile" ie the grid is fragile?? WTF??IIRC lightning hit a station somewhere (forget where) and knocked its power out. The surrounding stations tried to cover for it while it was down and they couldn't handle the strain so they too blew. This went on down the line until the final outcome as it was. But I may be mistaken on that.

TerranC

August 18th, 2003, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
IIRC lightning hit a station somewhere (forget where) and knocked its power out. The surrounding stations tried to cover for it while it was down and they couldn't handle the strain so they too blew. This went on down the line until the final outcome as it was. But I may be mistaken on that.There was no lightning; the main cause is still unknown, but something happened at a transmission line in ohio that caused it to go out. The power that should have been normally flowing throughout those lines were diverted to other lines, and those other lines, which couldn't handle the extra surge, went pop, taking out power stations connected to them.

That's my understanding of this whole event; other provinces and states were spared from this domino effect because they cut the connection from the falling dominoes.

Fyron

August 18th, 2003, 04:06 AM

If the main cause was unknown, how can you say it was not lightning? Or are you just saying that there was no lightning in Ohio around the time the power grid went down?

TerranC

August 18th, 2003, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
If the main cause was unknown, how can you say it was not lightning? Or are you just saying that there was no lightning in Ohio around the time the power grid went down?The NERC said the latter, I think.

[ August 18, 2003, 03:17: Message edited by: TerranC ]

dogscoff

August 18th, 2003, 05:38 PM

Hmm, conflicting reasons being offered as to the cause eh? How long before the wacko conspiracy theories start to emerge? Anyone seen any already?

IE aliens zapped the power grid, the government was testing a new anti-alien superweapon, alien islamic fundamentalist terrorist warlocks cast a spell on the power station etc etc etc...

Baron Munchausen

August 18th, 2003, 06:25 PM

Oh the conspiracy theorists and others started up as soon as the lights went out. Various Posts to Usenet started claiming terrorist action within a few hours, and that's probably why the strong denials of terrorism came out so quickly from the govt. And now people are saying it was necessary to cover for some 'secret' govt. project and things like that. Shrug... this is business as usual for the conspiracy theorists.

Thermodyne

August 19th, 2003, 01:35 AM

The people in Ohio are now saying that there was a severe current flux prior to the circuit trip they suffered. According to them, it occurred repeatedly for several hours prior to the event. And they are again pointing the finger to the north. They way these guys cover their tails, they must have been politicians in their Last jobs.

Personally, I think Tesco was trying to bring his weapons platform on line and the phased polaron beam took down the grid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ August 18, 2003, 12:36: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

Wardad

August 19th, 2003, 08:03 PM

On a totally unrelated note:

Phoenix area gas stations run dry!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Major pipeline delivering 40% of gasoline ruptured 10 days ago.
Pipeline owners are meeting with EPA to expedite paper work to allow pressure testing. It could be two weeks before pipeline opens.
Gas Trucks are tied up in 10 hour long waiting lines at overwhelemd Tuscon gas terminal.

story:
http://www.phoenix360.com/news/index.asp?did=3291

narf poit chez BOOM

August 19th, 2003, 10:05 PM

i had nothing to do with it.

now, bwain ovemmphh mmphh mmphh.

please disregard that Last statement. plin...er, i mean i had no idea what i was talking about.

Alpha Kodiak

August 19th, 2003, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
On a totally unrelated note:

Phoenix area gas stations run dry!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Major pipeline delivering 40% of gasoline ruptured 10 days ago.
Pipeline owners are meeting with EPA to expedite paper work to allow pressure testing. It could be two weeks before pipeline opens.
Gas Trucks are tied up in 10 hour long waiting lines at overwhelemd Tuscon gas terminal.

story:
http://www.phoenix360.com/news/index.asp?did=3291Yesterday I was eating lunch at a fast food place across the street from a station that was out of gas. While I was eating, I noticed a gas truck pulling away from the station. Then I noticed that the station already had a huge line of cars waiting to get to the pumps. I joked with my wife that people must be following the tankers around. Then, this morning on the radio I heard that a tanker driver had called in to report that he was being followed by between 20 and 30 cars.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

The sad thing is that apparently many of the people who are buying gas are just topping off, contributing to the shortage. There is actually enough gasoline, it is just hard to distribute it fast enough, and people are buying substantially more gasoline now than when there wasn't a shortage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

geoschmo

August 19th, 2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
The sad thing is that apparently many of the people who are buying gas are just topping off, contributing to the shortage. Can you blame them though? I can think of a few places I'd rather be then sitting on the side of the road in the Arizona desert out of gas and roasting in 114 degree teperatures. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Erax

August 19th, 2003, 11:40 PM

To get back to energy conservation...

Brazil went through a power shortage in 2001-2002. I won't get into the causes here but the fact is that the government should have seen it coming and didn't. To their credit, once they got going they handled things quite well. One of the measures was a residential energy quota of 200 kWh per house per month, with a BIG surcharge on any power spent over that amount.

At the time, we were spending way over that, which makes no sense since it's only two people in the house. My wife went completely paranoid with the light bulbs and such, but those don't use up that much power (neither does a computer, BTW). So we took a hard look at all our appliances and discovered the following :

- We had two refrigerators but we really only used one. Pulling the plug on one of them saved us around 40 kWh/month.

- My wife drinks coffee around the clock. She had an electric percolator which she kept on all day to keep the coffe warm. Doing it the old way - heating water on the gas stove and putting the coffee in a thermos bottle - saved us 130 kWh/month.

So it turns out we were just throwing a lot of power away, every month, day in and day out, without even noticing it. And the worst thing is, we weren't using it to make our lives better in any significant way.

So am I in favor of conservation ? Sure, if you do it rationally, the sacrifice involved is minimal.

Baron Munchausen

August 20th, 2003, 12:15 AM

The actual power use of appliances can be surprisingly different than you expect, but that's a real shocker. Most households that don't use electric heat (a terrible waste of electricity, btw) spend the most on refrigerators as I recall. Lights may not use much individually but add up all the lights around a house and it gets to be quite a bit. Compact flourescents are a Good Thing. But you never know when some little appliance might have a very big appettite...

130 kw a month for COFFEE!? Wow...

Baron Grazic

August 20th, 2003, 01:34 AM

The Australian media have reported 3 different causes to the black-out.
1 - Lightening - which I think they have now ruled out.
2 - An old overgrown tree snagged a main powerlines that was sagging, which caused a cascading effect tripping the safety switches.
3 - My favourite. A yet unknown terrorist group brain washed a squad of squirrels into making a suicide runs onto the major power lines. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

minipol

August 20th, 2003, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by Erax:
- My wife drinks coffee around the clock. She had an electric percolator which she kept on all day to keep the coffe warm. Doing it the old way - heating water on the gas stove and putting the coffee in a thermos bottle - saved us 130 kWh/month.Woooww. I'm impressed. If your wife drinks coffee around the clock, isn't she hyped all the time? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Krsqk

August 20th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
The people in Ohio are now saying that there was a severe current flux prior to the circuit trip they suffered. According to them, it occurred repeatedly for several hours prior to the event. And they are again pointing the finger to the north. They way these guys cover their tails, they must have been politicians in their Last jobs.Politics happens in more jobs than just government--and it seems more vicious the smaller the stakes, actually. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

tesco samoa

August 20th, 2003, 03:00 AM

200 kwh per month.

I think i could do it. Barely though. I average 15 kwh per day right now.

rextorres

August 20th, 2003, 03:53 AM

Maybe the U.S. should consider invading itself.

The billions spent fixing Iraq's power and water infrastructure would fix the U.S.' problems.

[ August 20, 2003, 02:57: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Fyron

August 20th, 2003, 04:29 AM

I dunno... one civil war was plenty IMO. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

August 20th, 2003, 05:01 PM

heh.. Canada could use a civil war.

I mean, we have had one.

It was a bar room brawl in which the only person arrested was an american mercenery who showed up late.

Gotta love Canadians.

Baron Munchausen

August 20th, 2003, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by rextorres:
Maybe the U.S. should consider invading itself.

The billions spent fixing Iraq's power and water infrastructure would fix the U.S.' problems.Others have noticed the discrepancy between foreign aid and supporting the home front. There have been some remote counties and townships, like the Key Islands in Florida, that have 'declared independence' and fired some shots in the air, then immediately surrendered and requested reconstruction aid. Then there was that West Virginia community that requested foreign aid from the Soviet Union to fix a bridge in the 1980s...

The price of ONE aircraft carrier battlegroup ($80 billion over it's full life time of operation & maintenance) would just about cover all of the bridge repairs we need in this country, for example.

Erax

August 20th, 2003, 07:15 PM

200 kwh per month. I think i could do it. Barely though. I average 15 kwh per day right now. Energy usage is quite different from country to country, depending on whether you use electricity for cooking, heating, A/C or water heating. For Brazil, it's a very reasonable value, I'd even say generous - we don't need heating, most houses don't have A/C and we use gas for cooking.

Loser

August 20th, 2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by E3:
heh.. Canada could use a civil war.

I mean, we have had one.

It was a bar room brawl in which the only person arrested was an american mercenery who showed up late.

Gotta love Canadians.This sounds specific. I'm guessing it's either an inside joke or some bit of history that kids in the States missed out on. Enlighten us?

tesco samoa

August 20th, 2003, 09:07 PM

yea true words.

I need heating in the winter... And I try not to run the AC in the summer.

I am in the process of converting my stove/oven & washer/dryer to gas.

That will really cut the rate down.

Usually the only stuff I run at home all the time is the fridge and freezer. The Computer now I turn it off when not in use.

Other than that it is lights on at night while in the room. And the rest of the stuff only when it is being used.

DavidG

August 20th, 2003, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by E3:
heh.. Canada could use a civil war.

I mean, we have had one.

It was a bar room brawl in which the only person arrested was an american mercenery who showed up late.

Gotta love Canadians.This sounds specific. I'm guessing it's either an inside joke or some bit of history that kids in the States missed out on. Enlighten us?<hr /></blockquote>I think the closed thing Canada came to a Civil war might be the Riel Rebellion. Not a whole lot bigger than a bar room brawl.

Wardad

August 20th, 2003, 11:24 PM

RE: Gas supply interruption in Arizona

To help mitigate the gasoline distribution problem in Phoenix, buisness leaders in the valley are encouraging employees who can carpool, use public transportation, work flexible hours or telecommute (with agreement from his/her manager) to do so. We're also suggesting the use of Online meetings and teleconferencing in place of travel.
In a meeting yesterday at Governor Napolitano's office, businesses were briefed on the following updates:

� Testing of the repaired pipeline is beginning today, and despite an initial failure reported in the media, Kinder Morgan asserts the pipeline will be back in operation this weekend.
� If tests are successful and gasoline begins flowing, it will take several days to restore the area's supply to normal and to stem panic buying; meanwhile, efforts continue to increase incoming supply via trucks.
� The governor has requested permission from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to temporarily allow the use of more generally available fuel blends in Phoenix; in addition, long-term plans include petitioning for modification of Arizona's State Implementation Plan (SIP) for air quality and removal of the requirement that we use a "boutique" fuel blend.
� As a result of price gouging, the governor, attorney general and the state legislature will introduce anti-gouging legislation in the 2004 legislative session. Currently, there is no Arizona law regulating the price of gasoline.
� 60 - 65 percent of valley-wide gas stations are not open or operating. After refueling, gas supplies Last only five to six hours.
� The governor is requesting 60 percent of the state employees in Maricopa County to telecommute, and is requesting county and city governments do the same.

Below are some helpful resources:

� Updates on the gas supply interruption: http://www.azcentral.com.
� Governor Napolitano's updates: http://www.governor.state.az.us.
� To find gas stations, which currently are open: http://kfyi.com/main.html.
� For the best (and worst) gas prices in Arizona: http://www.arizonagasprices.com.

We appreciate everyone's effort to support our community during this period of inconvenience.

[ August 20, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: Wardad ]

August 21st, 2003, 12:06 AM

DavidG, exactly what I was refering to.
LOL

Phoenix-D

August 21st, 2003, 12:13 AM

What I want to know about the gas situation is this:

-its claimed that the pipeline breaking is the cause of the problem, and that fixing it will resolve the problem
-it is ALSO claimed that we have the same amount of gas on hand as usual, and the problem is getting it to the stations

So how exactly will fixing a pipeline- which of course does NOT delive to individual stations- fix this situation?

Wardad

August 21st, 2003, 02:16 AM

Phoenix-D

Pipelines can carry fuel more efficently over longer distances than trucks can. Think of it as a railroad carrying a lot of heavy freight to a depot. The trucks deliver the fuel from the local terminal (depot) to the local stations.

Shuttng down the pipeline will shut down the local Phoenix terminal. Now the trucks have to drive to Tuscon to pick up the same gas, but there is not as many filling (pump) spots at that terminal.

Other distributers do not have more of Phoenix's special EPA approved blend, so they are not much help.

Who ever said there is the same amount of gas as before is lying and trying to avoid a panic. There will be less than before, but it is enough to get by on, if we all conserve.

geoschmo

August 21st, 2003, 02:24 AM

One truck operating out of a terminal in Phoenix can service more stations in Phoneix then the same truck operating out of a terminal in Tuscon in the same amount of time. So to get the same amount of gas to the Phoenix stations you have to add a whole lot more trucks or drive teh same trucks more hours in the day. This can't be done because normally people don't have fleets of fuel trucks sitting around doing nothing, they are servicing other comunities. And since you can't add mroe hours to the day then you end up with less gas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Wardad

August 21st, 2003, 07:15 PM

Other gas distributers are unwilling to make Phoenix's summer blend (which contains MTBE).
If they tried they would have a problem come October 2nd when we switch to our winter blend.

The MTBE has been dropped by other states because of aquafer contamination and it is a suspected carcinagen.
Phoenix has been struggling to meet the EPA ozone requirements.

Wardad

August 22nd, 2003, 10:02 PM

WoW!!!
I got the Last word in!!!

Alpha Kodiak

August 23rd, 2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
WoW!!!
I got the Last word in!!!Sorry Wardad, I can't let you get away with the Last word. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fuel supplies in the Phoenix area seem to have pretty much stabilized, with no lines and most stations having gasoline. Now if the price would drop down below $2 a gallon....

It's funny how fast the prices go up when there is a shortage (or even the slightest hint of a possible problem), and how s l o w l y they come down when there is plenty of gas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

DavidG

August 23rd, 2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:

It's funny how fast the prices go up when there is a shortage (or even the slightest hint of a possible problem), and how s l o w l y they come down when there is plenty of gas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Ha yea!!! Reminds me of the crap coffee crop they had in I think about 1994. Time Hortons (massive coffee chain here in Canada) prices jumped like you'd expect and then NEVER went back down. A couple years ago they raised their prices again and the were so proud of themselves that this was the first price increase thet've had for like 6 or 7 years. Gee are we supposed to be pleased that you've been over charging us for 7 years???

Me Loonn

August 25th, 2003, 02:34 AM

Ha Ha !
We had one of those outages too here in finland, yesterday night about 20:30 local time.

I guess we just HAVE to mimic EVERYthing the americans do rofl ...

Xaren Hypr

August 25th, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wardad:
WoW!!!
I got the Last word in!!!Sorry Wardad, I can't let you get away with the Last word. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fuel supplies in the Phoenix area seem to have pretty much stabilized, with no lines and most stations having gasoline. Now if the price would drop down below $2 a gallon....
<hr /></blockquote>Yeah right... I don't see the prices dropping any time soon, at least not by a significant amount... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ August 25, 2003, 09:16: Message edited by: Xaren Hypr ]

Wardad

August 25th, 2003, 06:11 PM

Ok, Now I have the Last word. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

DavidG

August 25th, 2003, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
Ok, Now I have the Last word. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif What are you trying to do turn this into on of those nonsense threads??? You know statments like that just beg people to respond. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Wardad

August 25th, 2003, 06:40 PM

The Phoenix gas situation has eased.
Mostly due to a temporary measure putting aside the requirements for our unique anti-pollution summer blend.
Now many distributors can help truck in gas from many directions.
On a really sad note, the tanker drivers will be allowed to work a 70 hour week. There are still hours-per-day driving restrictions. With two drivers, and a sleeping cab, the trucks can cover a lot of ground.

We are paying a lot more now.
It may not be gouging, at least by the little guy. Truckers get paid overtime. Gas stations have fixed expenses, rent, mortgage, utilites, insurance, and were selling less of a product that cost them more.

DavidG

August 26th, 2003, 12:19 PM

Oh great now our gas prices are going up! Guess what they're blaming it on? It's hard to understand how a broken pipe way down there can cause our prices to go up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

CEO TROLL

August 26th, 2003, 05:20 PM

Oh sure David G.... you you you it's always about you!!!

One lousy pipe between Tuscon and Phoenix and you think you you you...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

LAST WOORD http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Alpha Kodiak

August 26th, 2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by DavidG:
Oh great now our gas prices are going up! Guess what they're blaming it on? It's hard to understand how a broken pipe way down there can cause our prices to go up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif It's amazing isn't it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif And even though our gas shortage is pretty much a non-issue now, one of the outlying stations that I had to stop at this morning just raised its prices by six cents a gallon (sometime within the Last 4 days). I think they realized that they could squeeze a little more out of us, since they had been at $1.999 Last week when things were bad (they are about 5 miles out of town), and the in-town stations are running between $2.069 and $2.259 for the same gas.

Loser

August 26th, 2003, 06:26 PM

That would be price gouging. I don't think there are laws against price gouging or certain banking practices to protect the consumer. I think those laws are to prevent anger mobs from lynching business owners and bankers.

Captain Kwok

August 26th, 2003, 06:35 PM

My favourite part of US gas prices is the 9/10ths cent they always tack on the end. Always 9/10ths, not ever anything else. I suppose most people just think 1.569 is 1.56, when it's really 1.57!

Then again, it's always funny to watch people who drive around looking for the best deal. "Oh, it's only $0.753/L here and $0.764/L at the other station". That's like a whole savings there of maybe $0.50 for a full tank, and to make it worse they're driving a full-size SUV!

Alpha Kodiak

August 26th, 2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
That would be price gouging. I don't think there are laws against price gouging or certain banking practices to protect the consumer. I think those laws are to prevent anger mobs from lynching business owners and bankers.There are no price gouging laws in AZ. That may change after this, but I think caution should be exercized in their creation, as it would be easy to create laws that would adversely affect the market-driven economy that we live by. I guess we will see what happens....

Loser

August 26th, 2003, 08:32 PM

Better a hobbled economy than a dead gas station attendant.

(Not that I think it'd get that bad, on either end.)

August 26th, 2003, 09:34 PM

Kwok, us Canadians do have one thing to thank American Commerce for.

XX.99

Ever wonder why everything has that lovely 99 cents tacked on at the end?

Same reason for the 9 tenths.

American business realised that most people see 24.99 and think "Oh wow, 24 bucks."
The AVERAGE consumer is stupid enough to think just that.

It might be a buck difference, but factor in tax (which Canada pays more of), and factor in a dollar here, a dollar there, and yet another dollar over there too.... and thats a lot of money.

Kamog

August 27th, 2003, 02:59 AM

Yeah, when you go to the store, there are a lot of prices like $0.99, $1.99, $99.99, and so on. Maybe we should have a 99-cent coin?

Krsqk

August 27th, 2003, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
Yeah, when you go to the store, there are a lot of prices like $0.99, $1.99, $99.99, and so on. Maybe we should have a 99-cent coin?I'd like a $1.06 coin to pay the 6.5% sales tax on all those $.99's.

August 27th, 2003, 05:12 AM

6.5% tax?
LUCKY BASTARD.

15% tax up here.

Suicide Junkie

August 27th, 2003, 05:23 AM

What annoys me is the dollar store that has to add on tax to make it more than a buck.

Would it kill them to actually make the price I pay an exact multiple of one dollar, when the whole store is based on that premise?

Instead of simply tossing Loonies and bills around, you have to dig in for the little coins http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Bleh.

[ August 27, 2003, 04:24: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

tesco samoa

August 27th, 2003, 10:26 PM

hey they are selling t-shirts and hats

http://www.cafeshops.com/blackoutblame

August 28th, 2003, 12:37 AM

Actualy... you'd be supprised how many Americans dont think thats a joke.

I spent 3 months in Pennsylvania. The north eastern part of it, so I was near NY state and NJ. And you would be amazed at the amount of people I encountered in that area who viewed canada poorly, hated it, or anything in between. More than liked Canada, thats for sure.

In fact, the people I was with, yes I met them here in Toronto, but they came just for a band that was playing here, even though they hate the place.

My experiences in the US really brought my opinion of the american populace down by many many levels.

Now though, I do find people on the Interenet to be less "I'm from this country, yours sucks." Hence I can survive here happily.

And if I hear one "head flapping Canadian" comment (in reference to South Park's portrayal of canadians) I will take serious offence.

tesco samoa

August 28th, 2003, 01:27 AM

hmm.. never had that problem....

narf poit chez BOOM

August 28th, 2003, 10:54 AM

ah, there just angry about 1812. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

DavidG

August 28th, 2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by E3:

In fact, the people I was with, yes I met them here in Toronto, but they came just for a band that was playing here, even though they hate the place.
They don't like Tronoto? They sound more like Canadians who live anywhere but in Toronto?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

August 28th, 2003, 03:59 PM

Loser, I think I love you man. I have never encountered an American who put it in such precise terms. Mind you, the AVERAGE American far outnumbers the enlightened few, which I number you, and most SE4 players, among.

DavidG.... I've encountered that logic before. Its disturbing. Now mind you, any Ontarians in the Golden Horseshoe dont dislike Toronto, but outside of that, they seem to think their small town of 1 to 10 hundred, with nothing to do on a weekday afternoon yet alone saturday night except get drunk/high/stoned/throw your life away.

And the ones who don't like Toronto, are the ones who have either never been here, or havent been here in years. Its easy to not like what you dont know.

I mean, I still love the fact that CNN said there was mass looting, out of control fires, and riots in.... I forget if it was Toronto or Ottawa they said. LOL.

geoschmo

August 28th, 2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by E3:
Loser, I think I love you man. I have never encountered an American who put it in such precise terms. Mind you, the AVERAGE American far outnumbers the enlightened few, which I number you, and most SE4 players, among.
I think you would find that the vast majority of Americans have no ill feelings towards Canadians. If we like to laugh aboot you it's all in good fun. We poke fun at each other just as much or more then we do Canadians. I doubt very few hold a grudge about the territory issues. Most don't even know you took part of Maine. Truth be told a disturbingly large number of Americans probably couldn't find Canada or Maine on a map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Loser

August 28th, 2003, 04:49 PM

Thank E3. Hey, if you like what I'm saying, bump my rating. It's borderline and I'd like to keep the 4 after the next time I tick someone off.

On the other hand, if my statements are ever truly offensive to anyone, I'd understand, even expect them to give it a whack. Originally posted by geoschmo:
Most don't even know you took part of Maine.Oddly I don't think it's even tought it schools, or mentioned in most text books. These same text books carry the map of the Colonies where Maine comes to a more severe point, then just don't offer an explaination for why it no longer looks that way. In fact, I don't even remember being taught that Canada was involved in 1812, let alone that exiled loyalists and their kin supplyed so much to it.

[ August 28, 2003, 15:54: Message edited by: Loser ]

Tigbit

August 28th, 2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
[QUOTE]If we like to laugh aboot you it's all in good fun.Time to start fixing this. We do not say "aboot" we say about, just like everyone else. Perhaps one day in the past an American overheard a scott in Canada say "aboot" and then I would understand if you all bugged scotts from then on about it, but we Canadians say ABOUT... AB-OUT. What? Do you hear us say "get oot" or "I can figure oot this problem"? NO you don't.

BTW, I fully expect a few halfwhits to respond saying stuff like, "I heard a Canadian say it that way" but lets face it, they'd be full of #$@%.

cya

Loser

August 28th, 2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Tigbit:
We do not say "aboot" we say about, just like everyone else. Now, a lot of you all do have an accent, even if you all don't. It's very close to the accent you'll find in some northern states in the Union, like the Dakotas or Wisconsin. To be fair, we make fun of (laugh about) each other's accents as much as, if not more, than we do at out neighbor's accents. Consider the South, or the myriad accents available for comment on the northern end of the East Coast, or even the accents in the north. In truth, the rural folk here in Colorado have an accent very close to that you'd find in rural East Texas.

I had a friend from North Dakota who pronounced 'beg' and 'bag' almost indistinguishably. Our little clique would give her a hard time about it, but no more than we'd chide any other member of the group about their own little aspects of individuality.

Now what I'm wondering is how many folk who don't live there can tell the difference between a rural Tennessee and rural Texas accent.

(On a side note, I knew it was borderline, but I don't know what I said that was offensive. Oh well, I could scroll back and try to figure it out. Was it the Dome Colony comment?)

Thermodyne

August 28th, 2003, 06:04 PM

Well, when I was there, it took me a week to figure out what the locals were saying.

Now just to add some fuel to this, from the very mouths of some up-overs

http://www.gateway2china.com/community/_Messages/1008.html

tesco samoa

August 28th, 2003, 06:32 PM

gotta love 3rd gen from the sausage. Oshawa is too good for them. racist donut shop sun readers where they get thir economic information from.

tesco samoa

August 28th, 2003, 06:38 PM

hey the http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif disappeared..

perhaps you should have given the following warning

This link is full of swear words, random typing and a bunch of yahoo rejects http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

tesco samoa

August 28th, 2003, 06:40 PM

SO YOU WANT TO SPEAK CANADIAN, EH?
Americans traveling in Canada will likely encounter people who dress and speak English in much the same way as they do, expect for the approximately 25% of french speakers who may (not necessarily) speak english with a french accent.
Canadian speech is much more similar to American speech than to the English spoken in England and other parts of the United Kingdom. However, Americans may hear a British-like accent in Canadian speech. This is due in part to the fact that Canadians often use "raised vowel" sounds, resulting in the more clipped, "British" sound. Listen to a Canadian say "out and about". Americans tend to hear it as "oot and aboot" (rhymes with hoot). Of course, if you mention this to a Canadian he may think you have lost your mind. We Canadians don't hear the difference!

The second way in which Canadian speech differs greatly from American is in the placement of the emphasis in words and division into syllables: PRO-gress vs. prog-RESS, route rhyming with out vs. root, etc.

Thirdly, english Canadians do indeed say "eh". "Eh" is used at the end of a statement or question in order to elicit a response, as in "Hot enough for you, eh?" or "How about them Oilers, eh?". It is similar to the American "huh" but has more uses. For example, Joe doesn't quite hear what Paul said so Joe says "Eh?". Paul will then realize that either Joe:

1) didn't hear him
2) didn't understand him
3) wants more information
4) thinks Paul's statement is interesting and is encouraging Paul to continue.
English speaking Canadians (anglophones) also use a few British words and expressions that may be unfamiliar to Americans. An "eLastic" is a rubber band. A chesterfield = sofa = couch. Runners = sneakers = tennis shoes. Cash register = a till. Bum = the part of the person that meets a chair. There are many more. And unlike the USA, where "ma'am" and "sir" are common polite phrases, many women in Canada (including my mother) will inform you that they are not old enough to be called "ma'am"! It is not necessarily considered polite.

The french spoken in Canada is also quite different from that taught in American classrooms. French-speakers in Canada (francophones), use hundreds of english words mixed with their french, such as "le smoked beef", "le brake drum", and "un party". The French slang spoken in the streets of Quebec or Acadia are very different from the french spoken in France.

Finally, American readers of Canadian text will notice a lot of extra "u"s tagging along behind "o"s, such as in colour, flavour, humour, and neighbour. Some of the "r"s are shy and frightened of appearing at the end of words, as in The Centre of Arts.

Those traveling in the Atlantic Provinces may feel like they have been transported to the fishing villages of Scotland and Ireland. Brave souls who get out to the "Island" (Newfoundland) are not alone in their inability to understand the fishermen's dialect. Most mainland Canadians have difficulty understanding a good "Newfy" twang too! Be careful if a fisherman offers you any "screech" though! [Screech is moonshine made from old rum barrels.]

Loser

August 28th, 2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
gotta love 3rd gen from the sausage. Oshawa is too good for them. racist donut shop sun readers where they get thir economic information from.Is that a riddle?

DavidG

August 28th, 2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by E3:
DavidG.... I've encountered that logic before. Its disturbing. Now mind you, any Ontarians in the Golden Horseshoe dont dislike Toronto, but outside of that, they seem to think their small town of 1 to 10 hundred, with nothing to do on a weekday afternoon yet alone saturday night except get drunk/high/stoned/throw your life away.
The first thing you must do to fix this is get a new mayor. I don't think people dislike the actual city but the attitude that your mayor presents which is like "we are #1 and FU#$ the rest of the country"

DavidG

August 28th, 2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, when I was there, it took me a week to figure out what the locals were saying.

Now just to add some fuel to this, from the very mouths of some up-overs

http://www.gateway2china.com/community/_Messages/1008.htmlPlease tell me you don't hang out on that site. What a bunch of morrons.

tesco samoa

August 28th, 2003, 08:47 PM

e3 can explain it. ... toronto talk http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

August 28th, 2003, 11:57 PM

Oshawa is a city, though few realise it to be populated enough to be called a city, that is about an hour from the borders of Toronto.

The only reason Oshawa exists, is because it was built around an old military intelligence training base durring WW2... maybe WW1.. not sure.

The reason most people dont realise it's a city is because of its large area, most of which is undeveloped, and the very spread out population.

Why is it viewed poorly by EVERY canadian in existence?

Imagine a trailer park, in the American Mid-west. Everyone of low to no income. A certin culture seems to follow people like that. Now, add in biker gangs. Hells Angels, Paradise Riders, Satan's Choice and others. I don't know which gang is the dominant one.

Wonderful culture that would be, well thats Oshawa. A bunch of drunken drug using violent people. And because the city is sooo spread out and undeveloped, the only things to do for fun are drink, get high, and ****, which results in babies some how.

I guess they never heard of condoms or the pill.
Because all 4 things, happen lots.
I've lost a sister to Oshawa. She lives, but she will never be evolved enough for city living anymore.

And regarding Toronto's mayor...
Ok I agree. Most of Toronto agrees. Who doesn't? North York. North York is in love with Mel Lastman. And he did a lot of good for that part of Toronto. Indeed, his style of being a mayor is PERFECT for them. But his methods and policies are destroying Etobicoke and Scarborough, both already in decline. He is tearing apart the beaches in the east end where I live. He is tearing apart downtown. Yet still North York thrives. People are realising this and the end to his mayoral term is comming to an end... the city hopes.

Loser

August 29th, 2003, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by E3:
And if I hear one "head flapping Canadian" comment (in reference to South Park's portrayal of canadians) I will take serious offence.I was under the impression that this aspect of South Park was to make fun of people who thought Canada was all that different from the U.S. Really, what is there to fear from Canada: there are far less of them than us, they come from the same cultural background as the U.S. baseline (only they were the loyalists and the U.S. folk were the rebels (revolutionaries is not exactly the right word)), they have the same 'frontier mentality' that shapes so much to the American ideal, especially in the rural areas.

Other than the fact that Canada is the only place the U.S. has ever lost ground and not regained it (north end of Maine, then part of Massachusetts), what grudge is there to hold against them?

I just don't get it. But I still think it's domed.

narf poit chez BOOM

August 29th, 2003, 01:41 AM

yes, well, not everyone can tell it's a parady. paradeing is risky beyond people you know.

DavidG

August 29th, 2003, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by E3:
Oshawa is a city, though few realise it to be populated enough to be called a city, that is about an hour from the borders of Toronto.

The only reason Oshawa exists, is because it was built around an old military intelligence training base durring WW2... maybe WW1.. not sure.

The reason most people dont realise it's a city is because of its large area, most of which is undeveloped, and the very spread out population.

Why is it viewed poorly by EVERY canadian in existence?
Well not all. Man I really got to get out more! I've lived in Ontario for 25 years and never knew Oshawa had the reputation. I just thought it was some town east of Toronto
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

August 29th, 2003, 02:25 AM

Mind you, yes I live in the Beaches, the eastern part of the City of Toronto.

But I grew up in Scarborough, the eastern most part of Metropolotain Toronto, where Oshawa and Pickering are more of an influence than Toronto itself. Mind you, not to seem racist, because I am not, but anyone who lives in or near Toronto can confirm, Scarborough is becoming an immigrant town. I don't mean that in a derrogitory manner, I mean it literaly. Half of Scarborough doesnt know how to speak english. Skin colors range from black, to brown, to dark tanned, to olive. Rare is a white person now.

Now of course this has introduced me to many people who arent white who I am glad to have met. But I have met many people of other nationalities who are definately deserving of the derrogatory slurs that are often used against their races, mistakingly, when they should be aimed at the individuals who deserve them.

Many people in parts of Toronto are comming to assume "white culture" is what is represented in Oshawa, since the few people of white background in Toronto are ever increasingly adopting "black culture".

I mean the rap, the hip-hop, the "gangsta" culture. Thugs and wannabe thugs. The kind of things you see on the BET station.

Frankly, I will hide from the subrubs. They are too isolated and far too clique-ish. I will remain in the downtown of Toronto. Where people are so tightly packed that cultural and sub-cultural choices are irrelevant.

Myself?
I listen to bands like Das Ich, VNV Nation, Covenant (NOT Kovenant!), Apoptygma Berzerk, Project Pitchfork. These are the bands that best embody the sub-culture I've chosen.

Some would call me a goth. I don't like that term. I am not depressed, I am not mourning for the death of the world.
I enjoy life, I celebrate it. I revel in it.
In its darker aspects anyways.
Goth yes, industrial, darkrave. Any dark electronic music for me thank you very much.

THOUGH, I don't know how we got from talk about a Power out, to a gas leak in Arizona area, to a discussion on Toronto, to talk about sub-cultures and racial diversity.

Feel free to hit the abort-fail-retry key any time.

August 29th, 2003, 02:27 AM

Oh yeah, cant forget Wumpscut.
Never forget Wumpscut.
hehehehe

Thermodyne

August 29th, 2003, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
hey the http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif disappeared..

perhaps you should have given the following warning

This link is full of swear words, random typing and a bunch of yahoo rejects http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif You actually read it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I just did a search and gave the first few Posts a quick glance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thermodyne

August 29th, 2003, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
SO YOU WANT TO SPEAK CANADIAN, EH?
Americans traveling in Canada will likely encounter people who dress and speak English in much the same way as they do, expect for the approximately 25% of french speakers who may (not necessarily) speak english with a french accent.
Canadian speech is much more similar to American speech than to the English spoken in England and other parts of the United Kingdom. However, Americans may hear a British-like accent in Canadian speech. This is due in part to the fact that Canadians often use "raised vowel" sounds, resulting in the more clipped, "British" sound. Listen to a Canadian say "out and about". Americans tend to hear it as "oot and aboot" (rhymes with hoot). Of course, if you mention this to a Canadian he may think you have lost your mind. We Canadians don't hear the difference!

The second way in which Canadian speech differs greatly from American is in the placement of the emphasis in words and division into syllables: PRO-gress vs. prog-RESS, route rhyming with out vs. root, etc.

Thirdly, english Canadians do indeed say "eh". "Eh" is used at the end of a statement or question in order to elicit a response, as in "Hot enough for you, eh?" or "How about them Oilers, eh?". It is similar to the American "huh" but has more uses. For example, Joe doesn't quite hear what Paul said so Joe says "Eh?". Paul will then realize that either Joe:

1) didn't hear him
2) didn't understand him
3) wants more information
4) thinks Paul's statement is interesting and is encouraging Paul to continue.
English speaking Canadians (anglophones) also use a few British words and expressions that may be unfamiliar to Americans. An "eLastic" is a rubber band. A chesterfield = sofa = couch. Runners = sneakers = tennis shoes. Cash register = a till. Bum = the part of the person that meets a chair. There are many more. And unlike the USA, where "ma'am" and "sir" are common polite phrases, many women in Canada (including my mother) will inform you that they are not old enough to be called "ma'am"! It is not necessarily considered polite.

The french spoken in Canada is also quite different from that taught in American classrooms. French-speakers in Canada (francophones), use hundreds of english words mixed with their french, such as "le smoked beef", "le brake drum", and "un party". The French slang spoken in the streets of Quebec or Acadia are very different from the french spoken in France.

Finally, American readers of Canadian text will notice a lot of extra "u"s tagging along behind "o"s, such as in colour, flavour, humour, and neighbour. Some of the "r"s are shy and frightened of appearing at the end of words, as in The Centre of Arts.

Those traveling in the Atlantic Provinces may feel like they have been transported to the fishing villages of Scotland and Ireland. Brave souls who get out to the "Island" (Newfoundland) are not alone in their inability to understand the fishermen's dialect. Most mainland Canadians have difficulty understanding a good "Newfy" twang too! Be careful if a fisherman offers you any "screech" though! [Screech is moonshine made from old rum barrels.]Well, the ones I met in the south were speaking what would pass for american. The ones up north seemed to have socks in their mouths when they talked.

Thermodyne

August 29th, 2003, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, when I was there, it took me a week to figure out what the locals were saying.

Now just to add some fuel to this, from the very mouths of some up-overs

http://www.gateway2china.com/community/_Messages/1008.htmlPlease tell me you don't hang out on that site. What a bunch of morrons.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I was just in a mood to fire things up a little so I ran "Canada sucks" past Google.

I did another country too, but I'll sit on the results from that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ August 29, 2003, 03:17: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]