Enterprise on VHS

[Atrocities]

It had not occured to me that Enterprise would already be out on VHS, but it is. http://www.blackstar.co.uk/video/item/7000000070321

I have not yet checked Amazon to if they sell it yet, but if they oh boy. :|

The series is ok, better than Voyager was, but for some reason it just seems dule. Good acting, but just dule. Why is that?

[tesco samoa]

maybe because you have seen most of the stories in the previous shows.

I really wish that they would take the star trek series and make many many complex story arcs. The 40 minute story does not cut it any more. They are rather boring. Now if a story streched for 5 years ( and all the sub plots ) Look at soaps THey have stories that go on for 20 years. Why does the sci-fi fan have to suffer. Were geeks , nerds, and intelligent. Why not a series that reflects the audience who watches these shows.

Not only do you see it from the federation point of view but from the other empires point of view. ANd the story evolves

Sure it would be complex sure you would have to watch every show. But it would be enjoyable. It is what star trek lacks.

[Loser]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
It is what star trek lacks.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*cough, cough* B5 *cough, cough*

[Atrocities]

This new story arc they are on I just don't buy at all. I mean its lame, its a rip off of Starblazers/and that B5 spin off.

There was nothing to draw me into the story at all. A one hour premier????? Oh come on!

The Space Soldiers to the rescue. I have nothing vested in these guys, and I know from week to week they are just going to hire some extras to play them.

I once read an article about voyager where someone had gone through and counted all the differant crew memebers seen over the 7 years of the show and the total was like somewhere near 300. The ship only had a crew of about 150 people.

I agree that continuity and long, deeply involving story lines are the best bet for a show now a days. Just look at 24.

The show is boring, dule, lack luster, uninteresting, slow, predictable, sleeply, etc.

And the obvious sex ploys to get male views is so ****ing irratating that its insulting at best. I mean sure T'Pal, as a character is an attractive one, but focusing on her as a sex object is just a sell out and a true misuse of the character in general.

They dumped the seven of nine character into Voyager because the Kes character was not hot enough. Because that worked, and it drew in the 14 to 36 year old male viewers, they tried it again. (Um Jerry Ryan is married to Brandon Braga so all you guys out there that want to impress her with your Trek knowledge and your basement apartment in mommies house should just get a real place of your own and move on.)

The major problem with Enterprise is that the producers don't think we are smart enough to warrent intelligent shows. This was evident in Voyager.

DS9, although dull for the first three years, really hit its stride with the Dominion War. DS9 was very character driven with brillant performances and excellent presentation of drama and action.

Enterprise is well acted, semi well written, but lacks mojo. I am not concerned about the characters, the ship, which I think looks ugly, or the story lines.

Like with Voyager, Enterprise will go for the cheep Ratings, and seldom possess the gripping story lines needed to make it a bonafide hit.

[deccan]

I think the big problem with Trek is general is that they try to get everything back to the status quo at the end of every story. If they were just willing to make big, sweeping and permanant changes to things, then stories would be a lot more meaningful and interesting.

[Fyron]

Hence B5. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

what i want to see is a science fiction show that tries to stay as close to real science as possible. i wouldn't object to some sort of work-around for ftl, as long as it could be justified that it's 'possible', but i want to see: near C weapons, no 'magic' shield's, if there there i want a good science explantion, acceleration, deceleration, no ships tilting to turn and sliding in fighter fights. i want magnetic cannons and anti-proton's.

if your going to make up the science for a show, i don't object as long as you acknowledge that you made it up. but i would like to see something mostly realistic for a change.

see, the network's objection seems to me that nobody would understand all this complex science stuff, but nobody understands how phasers work and at least with real science there's something to understand. and the people who don't understand can still watch the original storylines, the realistic characters and the original plot.

ah, well, i can always read a book. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Fyron]

Hence, B5. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

well, i'm not sure about some of the science. it was a semi-mystical show. in one show, i'm told, though, the fighter's did slide. and the ships did have ion cannons, which, although i don't remember the explantion, i'm pretty sure there scientific.

but, storylines plot and characters, oh my.

[Fyron]

Most of the tech in B5 is realistically plausible (save jump gates and hyperspace stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). There are deviations ofc, but those are a minimum (esp. for the non-Ancient races).

And they very often did sliding and such in fighters.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

never really looked into it. and it was half mystical. no psionics in my show. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 14, 2003, 04:06: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[Atrocities]

B5 is based a lot on the LOTR books. I think that is where most of the stories came from.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

how so?

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
B5 is based a lot on the LOTR books.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
how so?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The ancient war between light and darkness. The passing-of-the-torch from the older (and ancient) races of power to the younger upstarts (man included). The Faustian teptation of true power and the struggle against its price. Epic wars wherein the fates of entire races hang in the balance. The betrayal of comrades and their possible redemption. You could make a lot of parallels.

[deccan]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
never really looked into it. and it was half mystical. no psionics in my show. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. The semi-mystical (souls, First Ones going off into another reality etc.) stuff is a real turn off for me.

[oleg]

Originally posted by deccan:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
never really looked into it. and it was half mystical. no psionics in my show. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. The semi-mystical (souls, First Ones going off into another reality etc.) stuff is a real turn off for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And how about Q in STNG, or Bajoran gods ?
ST has as much psionics as B5 - Dianna Troy for example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

The First Ones did not go off into another reality, they just left the galaxy. There is a huge difference, and nothing mystical about it.

A lot of stories have parallels with LOTR because it incorporates a lot of common themes... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif In fact, I think all of these things you mention Tolkien got the ideas for from various mythologies originally. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 14, 2003, 09:44: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Cheeze]

And then there are the Rangers... I guess the Minbari read Tolkien

[DavidG]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
maybe because you have seen most of the stories in the previous shows.

I really wish that they would take the star trek series and make many many complex story arcs. The 40 minute story does not cut it any more. They are rather boring. Now if a story streched for 5 years ( and all the sub plots ) Look at soaps THey have stories that go on for 20 years. Why does the sci-fi fan have to suffer. Were geeks , nerds, and intelligent. Why not a series that reflects the audience who watches these shows.

Not only do you see it from the federation point of view but from the other empires point of view. ANd the story evolves

Sure it would be complex sure you would have to watch every show. But it would be enjoyable. It is what star trek lacks.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I beg to differ. Sure the 40 minute show may not cut it anymore but that's just due to bad writing. I do not want to see a show that that is in essence a 20 part mini-series. Miss one or 2 and you don't know what's going on. This would be even more confused by the fact that almost all the shows I've seen recently go with 3 or 4 new episodes then 2 or 3 repeats for the whole season. I want a start and and end in 1 hour.

As far as T'Pol as a sex object that someone else mentioned. Hey some of us like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif If you want a deep meaningfull story turn off the TV and get a book. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Kamog]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
They dumped the seven of nine character into Voyager because the Kes character was not hot enough.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like Kes way more than Seven of Nine. Kes was sweet, gentle, and pretty. It's too bad that they didn't do very much with that character in the show. Seven of Nine has a nice body, but being a Borg, she is cold, unemotional and speaks in a monotonous voice. Also I find Kes' face more attractive - very nice smile.

As for B5, I like Lyta Alexander. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif She's the best!

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by DavidG:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by tesco samoa:
maybe because you have seen most of the stories in the previous shows.

I really wish that they would take the star trek series and make many many complex story arcs. The 40 minute story does not cut it any more. They are rather boring. Now if a story streched for 5 years ( and all the sub plots ) Look at soaps THey have stories that go on for 20 years. Why does the sci-fi fan have to suffer. Were geeks , nerds, and intelligent. Why not a series that reflects the audience who watches these shows.

Not only do you see it from the federation point of view but from the other empires point of view. ANd the story evolves

Sure it would be complex sure you would have to watch every show. But it would be enjoyable. It is what star trek lacks.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I beg to differ. Sure the 40 minute show may not cut it anymore but that's just due to bad writing. I do not want to see a show that that is in essence a 20 part mini-series. Miss one or 2 and you don't know what's going on. This would be even more confused by the fact that almost all the shows I've seen recently go with 3 or 4 new episodes then 2 or 3 repeats for the whole season. I want a start and and end in 1 hour.

As far as T'Pol as a sex object that someone else mentioned. Hey some of us like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif If you want a deep meaningfull story turn off the TV and get a book. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">B5 actually works quite well when viewing semi-random episodes. Pick them from the same half of a season, and avoid the occasional "major turning point" episodes.
Still best to see all in a row of course.
All you need is to have two days a week, where you re-show Last week's episode for those who missed it.

[deccan]

Originally posted by DavidG:
I beg to differ. Sure the 40 minute show may not cut it anymore but that's just due to bad writing. I do not want to see a show that that is in essence a 20 part mini-series. Miss one or 2 and you don't know what's going on. This would be even more confused by the fact that almost all the shows I've seen recently go with 3 or 4 new episodes then 2 or 3 repeats for the whole season. I want a start and and end in 1 hour.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*Shrug*

One could put it down to different tastes, but IMHO since each Trek series has dealt with either a specific ship or a space station, then it makes more sense story-wise that things should be more mini-series like instead of episodic like.

If want you want is a story that begins and ends in an hour, then it would make more sense not to restrict oneself to a specific ship or space station.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

the psionics wheren't a turn-off, i was classifying. it makes it less scientific, so none of that in the scientific show.

and like Fyron said, those themes aren't enough to say it's based off of lotr, however, i would be suprised if the writers havn't read it. on the other hand, i'd be suprised if someone with an interest in mythilogical fiction hadn't read it. and the ranger's...ranger's, in fantasy, in my mind, came right out of tolkien's work...this, despite the fact that, as far as i know, which isn't farther than reading lotr, the hobbit and the one i can't spell right now that starts with an s, he never really defined ranger. maybe he did somewhere else?

i babbled.

[ September 15, 2003, 08:39: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[Fyron]

Actually, there are quite a few plausible scientific theories that could explain telepathy; assuming it existed, of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

there is no scientific proof that i know of. and the psionics on b5 wouldn't fit into those scientific theories. for one thing, telepathic range would probably be only a few miles without boosting equipment.

[dogscoff]

I liked the tech levels in Bab5 and found it mostly plausbile, except for all that psychic stuff, and all the time travel. Reading brain waves can currently be done by extremely specialised machines (and even then not at any great range or detail of interpretation). Imho it could conceivably be done at a similar level by aliens, but never by unmodded humans.

When I write scifi outside of the se universe, there will be no time travel and no psychics.

I also thought the B5 fighters moved quite convincingly, on the whole, like the way they'd rotate 180 degrees to slow down or reverse course.

--
"Bed good. World bad."
-Me, getting up this morning.

[ September 15, 2003, 11:19: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[Fyron]

Keep in mind that the human telepaths (as well as those of most races) were genetically modified by the Vorlons to have the ability to use telepathy. Also, the telepathy was certainly limited in range, never more than a few miles (and that was only with devices capable of enhancing the telepath's abilities).

Narf, look a bit harder to find some plausible scientific explanations for telepathy then. They are out there, somewhere. I did not say "proof", as that implies that telepathy actually exists. I said plausible explanations of how it could exist. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 15, 2003, 18:10: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

didn't one of the psychics turn into an unltimate weapon at the end?

anyway, i'm excluding it because there isn't proof; if it was included, it would be done scientifically; i hadn't actually thought much about the possibility when i first excluded it.

[Fyron]

So you are not going to spend a few minutes looking for the possible scientific explanations of telepathy? There are some good ones out there...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

no, not really. 'electro-magnetic waves can interact' pretty much sums up everything scientific i've ever heard. and, as far as i know, the human brain doesn't have the nessasary telepathic lobe to decode other peoples thoughts, nessasary because other people don't think the same.

[oleg]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
... and, as far as i know, the human brain doesn't have the nessasary telepathic lobe to decode other peoples thoughts, nessasary because other people don't think the same.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And who is talking here ? Genetically Modified Mouse who is more intelligent than the vast majority of my biological <inset the word> ?
Telepathy looks even more plausiable now ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

oleg got point.

right on top of head. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Fyron]

So... if humans were modified to be able to do that stuff, it might be possible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Or if you had aliens... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Narrew]

Originally posted by deccan:
[QUOTE]I agree. The semi-mystical (souls, First Ones going off into another reality etc.) stuff is a real turn off for me.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea, BUT what if the Ancients had HUGE Knockers, wouldnt you be interested then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif sorry, couldnt help myself.

[ September 15, 2003, 23:49: Message edited by: Narrew ]

[Narrew]

well, I was sad to see B5 go, I had hoped that Crusade would stick around, I liked the Techno Wizards.

I am open to alot of Sci-fi, I am really hooked on Stargate, and you know, they dont seem to sex up stuff, though I admit the Gauld and Tokra women look hott in them outfits, but the human team is subdued, there is the thing between Carter and O'Neill, but rarely talked about. But it is winding down.

I also liked John Doe (not sci-fi but still) but they cancled it *bastards* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

they cancelled john doe? if they where here, i'd hit them.

did i mention that i weigh over 200 pounds?

[Kamog]

Are there possible scientific explainations for other psychic abilities like telekinesis, levitation, foretelling the future, remote viewing, etc?

[Fyron]

Telekinesis generally works the same way as telepathy, just with a lot more energy. The rest of it is very tough to even begin trying to explain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (ofc, it is still all pure fantasy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

[Atrocities]

You guys should play System Shock 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

in which case, telekinisis shouldn't move non-ferious materials.

except i heard of one experiment where they managed to move a frog with a really large magnet. i'm kinda doubtfull, because it's seems that that amount of electro-magnetism should have done some bad things to the frog's brain. can anybody else confirm/deny this?

system shock 2? why? *wander's off to take a look at it and the demo*

ran into a review. don't like horror.

[ September 16, 2003, 18:18: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[Narrew]

yes Narf, I was searching on the net for when the next season would start and came across "Save John Doe" ect... is sad, especially after the season ending cliff hanger

[oleg]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
in which case, telekinisis shouldn't move non-ferious materials.

except i heard of one experiment where they managed to move a frog with a really large magnet. i'm kinda doubtfull, because it's seems that that amount of electro-magnetism should have done some bad things to the frog's brain. can anybody else confirm/deny this?

...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nucler Magnetic Resonance (NMR) of biomolecules is what I do for living. So far, my brain is perfectly fine, fin. fi. f... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Kamog:
Are there possible scientific explainations for other psychic abilities like telekinesis, levitation, foretelling the future, remote viewing, etc?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My psychology professor is somewhat of an expert in the paranormal. He usually gets called in to check out alien abductions, hauntings, and such. He has also done extensive research into various psi phenomena. One of the most interesting projects was when he invited a man named Ingo Swann (for those who don't know, Ingo is a remote viewer who gained much fame back in the seventies, and claims that he has been training operatives in the CIA to remote view for the past 20 years) to the university to do some testing. The data was quite amazing. The various remote viewing excercises were disturbingly acurate, and in some cases his perceptions seemed to go beyond strict remote viewing. Like I said, the data (not just anecdotes and such) was quite amazing.

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
in which case, telekinisis shouldn't move non-ferious materials.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, telekinesis tends to affect objects in much the same way as electricity. Conductors (such as metals) tend to heat up, while non-conductors (such as wood) tend to move around. The energy output seems to be constant, whereas small objects move fast and large objects move slow. Telekinesis is 5x more likely to be expressed be women than men (and even then usually centered around the teen years), and is primarily displayed in a cone emanating from the back of the head. Also, telekinesis can be differentiated from haunting phenomena by the fact that it is not accompanied by a fear response.

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Telekinesis generally works the same way as telepathy, just with a lot more energy. The rest of it is very tough to even begin trying to explain. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually they seem to work quite differently. And if you don't know how telepathy works why are you claiming that telekinesis works the same way?

Also, most psychics seem to be temporal lobe epileptics. Perhaps it is the abnormal brain activity that allows them to do such interesting things. Perhaps the abnormal brain activity is a side-effect of what they can do. Such things have not yet been determined.

[Fyron]

QR, telepathy and telekinesis and all of that stuff do not work in reality... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I know how telepathy could work, if it was more than fiction.

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by oleg:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
in which case, telekinisis shouldn't move non-ferious materials.

except i heard of one experiment where they managed to move a frog with a really large magnet. i'm kinda doubtfull, because it's seems that that amount of electro-magnetism should have done some bad things to the frog's brain. can anybody else confirm/deny this?

...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nucler Magnetic Resonance (NMR) of biomolecules is what I do for living. So far, my brain is perfectly fine, fin. fi. f... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahh, almost a collegue. I do some MRT, have read some about NMR when studying. Will go to the canary Isles in january for another course on MR, will be fun!

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
QR, telepathy and telekinesis and all of that stuff do not work in reality... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I know how telepathy could work, if it was more than fiction.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And I am telling you that some people are capable of actions that are considered to be within the scope of what most consider to be telepathy, telekinesis, and such. I have seen the hard data.

Now perhaps your viewpoint is based upon a poor definition of such abilities. If you define telepathy as the ability to look into someone elses head and scroll through their memories like a big vcr (or take over their mind, using them like a meat-puppet), or telekinesis as the ability to levitate cars merely with the power of ones mind, then, yes, you are right, within that limited paradigm such things would not work in this reality. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, our actual reality is a little bit more complex (and subtle) than that of a comic book. Strange things in this reality tend not to be as flashy as you might like (though even here they can be pretty spectacular). Just because they don't quite live up to our adolescent fantasies doesnt mean that they don't exist. We should try to keep disappointment from clouding our judjement.

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
QR, telepathy and telekinesis and all of that stuff do not work in reality... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I know how telepathy could work, if it was more than fiction.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It might not work now or be considered a scifi exclusive thing, but evolution can never be ruled out.

[DavidG]

Originally posted by QuarianRex:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
QR, telepathy and telekinesis and all of that stuff do not work in reality... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I know how telepathy could work, if it was more than fiction.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And I am telling you that some people are capable of actions that are considered to be within the scope of what most consider to be telepathy, telekinesis, and such. I have seen the hard data.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I recently read an article that said the same thing. (ie that hard data exists) It revolved around a test were subjects were shown one of 4 cards with pics on them and another person in a separate room would say what they wwere. I think the test showed that people on average got like 33% right as opposed to the expected 25%. This was claimed to be "statistically relevant" It just made think "who the heck decided what 'statistically relevant' means. Also could it not also just prove something totally different? ie some people are just lucky. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

'Course the reason most people are skeptical about telepathy is like you say, how they define it. I would think telepathy would be commonly thought of as being able to read ones mind fairly reliably not just geting slightly higher that average while predicting one of 4 pictures.

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by DavidG:
It just made think "who the heck decided what 'statistically relevant' means.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Some musty old guys. They did it around the same time that they were hammering out the scientific method. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Originally posted by DavidG:
Also could it not also just prove something totally different? ie some people are just lucky. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is some evidence that the most basic level of psi is the manipulation of probability. Luck, if consitent enough, could itself be a manifestation of psi. And when you look at most studies of the wierder aspects of human capability these usually take luck into account. These aren't averaged on 5 or 10 tests where luck could have a substantial effect. These results are averaged over hundreds of tests. If you can keep lady luck on your side that long, well... I think that in itself would qualify as an example of the paranormal.

[Fyron]

Where did adolescent fantasies come into this? That is fairly insulting.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

show me the hard data.

[oleg]

There is no such thing as telekinesis.

Science would be impossible since results of experiments will depend on experimentator mind.

Do you think people did't look very hard on the measuring devises when another brilliant theory goes bust ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Some experiments are done with extreme accuracy and regardless of the obserever, results are the same.

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Where did adolescent fantasies come into this? That is fairly insulting.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It wasn't meant to be an insult. That was not my intention at all. I was just trying to point out that most peoples conecptions of such things are, whether we want to admit it or not, based mostly on what we absorbed from comics and cartoons while growing up. When looking at strangeness in the real world we often hold it up to the benckmark of out disappointed adolescent fantasy and, obviously, find it lacking. This makes it easy to dismiss things out of hand. The actual phenomena are usually quite disappointing. Things like telekinesis are usually completely uncontrolled, and therefore exceedingly difficult to use in an experimental setting. Even when it does occur it is usually uninspiring ("Oh, look. That book just fell off the coffee table... Yippee!!!").

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
show me the hard data.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't say that I had the hard data, only that I have seen the hard data. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I have my notes from the course and such but I do not have copies of the research. I did, however, see the results of much of the research and am aware of some of the theories based (at least in part) on that research. Some of my profs theory is that "psi" phenomena are electromagnetic in nature (or at least manifest that was) and are strongly affected by the earths geomagnetic field (GMF). So much so that during times of GMF flux (such as during a solar flare) the occurrence of psi phenomena plummet. Conversly, the occurrence of hauntings (also a GMF phenomena) skyrockets. Looking at records of "psychic" type incidents going back @100 years seems to hold this theory up.

Anyway, enough typing for now.

EDIT: spelling

[ September 17, 2003, 22:18: Message edited by: QuarianRex ]

[Narrew]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
show me the hard data.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I got some hard data for ya http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif When I was younger, a few years ago, was my late 30s http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I wondered how come when I saw a hott woman OR there was a stiff breeze my pants tightened up, I really THOUGHT that was Telekinesis, then I was asked to take a poll for Trekkie Nerds *sigh*, I am so confused http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

ohh, sorry, welll not really, I just couldnt help myself

[oleg]

Originally posted by QuarianRex:
... I did, however, see the results of much of the research and am aware of some of the theories based (at least in part) on that research. Some of my profs theory is that "psi" phenomena are electromagnetic in nature (or at least manifest that was) and are strongly affected by the earths geomagnetic field (GMF). So much so that during times of GMF flux (such as during a solar flare) the occurrence of psi phenomena plummet. Conversly, the occurrence of hauntings (also a GMF phenomena) skyrockets. Looking at records of "psychic" type incidents going back @100 years seems to hold this theory up.

Anyway, enough typing for now.

EDIT: spelling<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please, spare me this nonsense. I work daily with magnetic fields 100000 stronger (750MHZ 1H Larmor frequency) then GMF, even at highset solar flare impacts and 100% sure all those results are utter and complete rubbish.

[Atrocities]

I once saw a tv show where they actually studyied Star Trek Nerd, or Trekkies as they wanted to be called. You know the type, the people who dress up in starfleet or klingon uniforms and go around conventions calling each other Lieutenant or Captain Klawwwwww or something even worse.

They profiled over 2,000 of them and this is what they discovered. (As close as I can recall it)

"A normal average Trekkier is morbidly obease male of an average age of 30, poor hygine skills, low self astem, poor vision - requiring glasses, no significant other - most are still virigns, who reside at either their mothers home, or a dorm at a local college.

Most are incredibly intelligent, but lack people skills and are often sufforing from some mental disorder that limits their grasp of reality."

The show went on to show a bunch of people doing things that most of us would NEVER get cought doing. Did you know there are people out there that have learned to speak Klingon as if it was a real language and not just made up for the movies?

Hey I like the ships, thats all, ok the weapons too, but I would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS EVER dress up in a costum, out side of a party, and go out in public.

I just like the weapons and ships. Thats all.

[ September 17, 2003, 12:16: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
... Did you know there are people out there that have learned to speak Klingon as if it was a real language and not just made up for the movies?

...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But was't it wonderful when Dr.Frasier spoke Klingon at bar mitzvah ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by oleg:
Please, spare me this nonsense. I work daily with magnetic fields 100000 stronger (750MHZ 1H Larmor frequency) then GMF, even at highset solar flare impacts and 100% sure all those results are utter and complete rubbish.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please don't discount something as rubish without seeing the evidence. And I never said that the intensity of the field was the determining factor. It seems to be the flux that has the disruptive/enhancement effect, not necessarily the intensity of the GMF. Solar flares and such are just what have the most impact. Also note that it is usually the pattern of the signal, not the intensity, that can cause the most change. For instance, using cellphones, theoretically, have a greater chance of causing cancer than living near powerlines. The powerlines may be much more intense but that is essentially white noise, easily ignored/adjusted to by the body. Cellphones, on the other hand, send out structured signals that, if encountering the right cell at the wrong time, could 'tell' it to start replicating like a madman (a.k.a. cancer).

[QuarianRex]

Oleg:

Where do you work by the way?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

so, would lifting a frog with a magnetic field be possible? would it kill the frog?

if we establish a baseline for the power needed for a relativily telekinitec feat...if the pro people want, we can use a pencil as the baseline. knocking a book of the shelf doesn't take a lot of energy.

and this has nothing to do with my adolesent fantasy's.

[Fyron]

No forms of "psi", no matter how small, exist in reality. I was not merely stating that stuff like what is in comics and movies was fantasy, but all of it. I have seen various forms of "evidence", and none of it added up.

Cell phones cause cancer is an urban legend.

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No forms of "psi", no matter how small, exist in reality. I was not merely stating that stuff like what is in comics and movies was fantasy, but all of it. I have seen various forms of "evidence", and none of it added up.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting how you state flat out that no form of psi exists on the basis that you haven't seen evidence for it that added up. No current evidence for A does not imply that A doesn't exist. While it is reasonable to doubt A, or to be suspicious of claims of A, your statement could readily be turned around: I have not seen any evidence that added up stating that humans have no currently unrecognized communication methods (one reasonable definition of telepathy). Do you have any proof that no forms whatsoever of "psi" exist? If not, why the utter denial of the possibility?

I did a quick search Online, and came up with an article that I suspect is one that QuarianRex alluded to earlier: Experiment description and analysis table (http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/dbem/does_psi_exist.html#experimental%20series)

Edit: Hmm, the link isn't working quite the way I wanted it to; it takes you to the head of the article, not the table. I think I'll leave it anyway.

[ September 18, 2003, 06:43: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

i'll take a look at that stuff.

[oleg]

Originally posted by QuarianRex:
Oleg:

Where do you work by the way?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">University of Manchester. We use NMR spectrometers for study of biomolecules.

[oleg]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
so, would lifting a frog with a magnetic field be possible? would it kill the frog?

...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it has been done, but not sure. It is possible to generate very strong magnetic fields but for a short period of time and poor homogenity. The strength of NMR mashines is mostly restricted by the need of the uniform magnetic field through the sample, not the true capacity of the superconductor.

[Narrew]

guess my ability to make this thread about me and my funny joke didnt work, so I guess my mental powers are not great enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[oleg]

Originally posted by Narrew:
guess my ability to make this thread about me and my funny joke didnt work, so I guess my mental powers are not great enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That joke was noted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It MIGHT be the most hard proof of telekinesis after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Jack Simth:
I did a quick search Online, and came up with an article that I suspect is one that QuarianRex alluded to earlier<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That wasn't quite what I was talking about but I am quite familiar with the ganzfeld procedure. I have even participated in some experiments that used it.

What I was refering to was the work of my psych prof Dr. Micheal Persinger. Do a google search on him (as I just did) and you will find a slew of articles. Take a look at a couple to get an idea of some of the specifics of his research. Beware though, a lot of the articles about him tend to have rather... creative... titles. His kind of work tends to attract those looking for a sensational story. Look for an article that actually describes the experiment, rather than one trying to ligitimize a crackpot theory or somesuch.

[Kamog]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
"A normal average Trekkier is morbidly obease male of an average age of 30, poor hygine skills, low self astem, poor vision - requiring glasses, no significant other - most are still virigns, who reside at either their mothers home, or a dorm at a local college.

Most are incredibly intelligent, but lack people skills and are often sufforing from some mental disorder that limits their grasp of reality."<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So are a lot of guys who spend too much time playing role-playing games. Their fantasy worlds have become more important than their real lives.