OT: why football is better than American football [Archive]

oleg

October 9th, 2003, 04:44 PM

Because it uses the ball with the shape God choose for the Universe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3175352.stm

geoschmo

October 9th, 2003, 04:52 PM

That's not a football shape, it's a soccer ball. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

oleg

October 9th, 2003, 04:54 PM

No, it is a football http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Football is a game played by kicking the ball. Your favorite sport is technically Handball http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 09, 2003, 15:56: Message edited by: oleg ]

geoschmo

October 9th, 2003, 05:02 PM

Actually my favorite sport is Baseball, but that's another topic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So Soccer should be renamed Headball? Kneeball? Chestball? Maybe, "Everything but your hands, unless you are the goalie and then you can use your hands too, Ball" I saw all those being used in a soccer game once. Right before I fell asleep that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

General Woundwort

October 9th, 2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I saw all those being used in a soccer game once. Right before I fell asleep that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Actually, with all the penalty delays, video replay for disputed ref call delays, commerical break time outs, ad infinitum ad nauseam, we can't really use the "boring" argument against soccer anymore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Wardad

October 9th, 2003, 05:06 PM

OK NOW!!!!

Let's get a profesional US Football team to play one of your football teams in a mixed rules game.
You may run, but your gonna slow down sometime... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

geoschmo

October 9th, 2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by geoschmo:
I saw all those being used in a soccer game once. Right before I fell asleep that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Actually, with all the penalty delays, video replay for disputed ref call delays, commerical break time outs, ad infinitum ad nauseam, we can't really use the "boring" argument against soccer anymore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif <hr /></blockquote>No, the delays in Football are anoying at times, but they are strategically placed to allow snack/bathroom breaks without missing any of the action. In soccer you can take a 2 hour bathroom break and not miss anything significant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Whew, that line at the snack bar took forever. What'd I miss?

Uh, they all ran this way for a while, then they all ran back the other way for a while. Actually I am not sure about any more then that cause I have been sitting here doing my taxes to keep from nodding off. But the score is still tied, zero-zero.

spoon

October 9th, 2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Because it uses the ball with the shape God choose for the Universe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3175352.stmActually, given this quote from the article:

More precisely, we may inhabit a dodecahedral cosmos.
I'd say He modeled the Universe after Dungeons & Dragons.

And if He's the DM, I say He's totally cheap when it comes to handing out magic items. I'm, what, an 8th level peon and not one +1 sword in sight.

DavidG

October 9th, 2003, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by General Woundwort:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by geoschmo:
I saw all those being used in a soccer game once. Right before I fell asleep that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Actually, with all the penalty delays, video replay for disputed ref call delays, commerical break time outs, ad infinitum ad nauseam, we can't really use the "boring" argument against soccer anymore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif <hr /></blockquote>No, the delays in Football are anoying at times, but they are strategically placed to allow snack/bathroom breaks without missing any of the action. In soccer you can take a 2 hour bathroom break and not miss anything significant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
<hr /></blockquote>As opposed to the fast action, never boring game of baseball. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

DavidG

October 9th, 2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
OK NOW!!!!

Let's get a profesional US Football team to play one of your football teams in a mixed rules game.
You may run, but your gonna slow down sometime... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif How wbout they play a European rugy team instead? Those woosies wouldn't even step on a field with out 100 pounds of bullet proof armour. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

geoschmo

October 9th, 2003, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by DavidG:
As opposed to the fast action, never boring game of baseball. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Oh no. I would never argue Baseball isn't a lot slower then the other games. I like it for other reasons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

When I say soccer is boring, it isn't because there is no action. There is always something happening. It's just that none of the action has any relation to the ultimate outcome of the game. It's 90 minutes of your life wasted watching a bunch of guys running around before they do some penalty kicks to decide the winner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Cyrien

October 9th, 2003, 05:57 PM

I dunno. I kinda like the part when someone does make a goal and for the next hour you get to hear "GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!!!!"

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit- Removed a few letters to make it not scroll the screen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

(Moderator Edit- It was still scrolling on my screen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

[ October 09, 2003, 17:24: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Loser

October 9th, 2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by spoon:
I'd say He modeled the Universe after Dungeons & Dragons.

And if He's the DM, I say He's totally cheap when it comes to handing out magic items. I'm, what, an 8th level peon and not one +1 sword in sight.At least he's generous with experience and doesn't penalize you too much for multiclassing.

-Loser
4th level gamer geek
4th level phone-jockey
3rd level computer geek
2nd level programmer
2nd level carouser

Thermodyne

October 9th, 2003, 06:20 PM

Well, if you want a fast game with some good contact too, then you need to watch some lacrosse.

Ragnarok

October 9th, 2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Cyrien:
I dunno. I kinda like the part when someone does make a goal and for the next hour you get to hear "GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!!!!"

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit- Removed a few letters to make it not scroll the screen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif That's the only fun part I find in Soccer. I tried yelling that once watching football once and no one seemed to like it very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I say we mix Football, Hockey, and Soccer into one mixed rules game and she who wins. I can just see Warren Sapp, or Derrick Brooks chasing someone off a Soccer team with a Hockey stick and that evil look in his eye... It'd make me wet my pants, that's for sure.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

geoschmo

October 9th, 2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
I say we mix Football, Hockey, and Soccer into one mixed rules game and she who wins. I can just see Warren Sapp, or Derrick Brooks chasing someone off a Soccer team with a Hockey stick and that evil look in his eye... It'd make me wet my pants, that's for sure.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Actually, what you are describing is that Lacrosse Game that Thermo mentioned a bit ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 09, 2003, 17:26: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

rdouglass

October 9th, 2003, 08:50 PM

IMO Hockey is the game. 5 player with sticks smacking a hard rubber disk around on ice. The goalie (up untill very recently) is padded everywhere but his neck.

The object of the game is to hit the goalie in the neck with the puck going over 100 mph! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Seriously, what other sport (besides the obvious fighting sports) lets you beat the crap out of an opponent and just get a 5 minut penalty for "roughing"!!

If you've ever watched NHL playoff hockey, it is far from boring....a far cry from that "futball" thing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Erax

October 9th, 2003, 09:24 PM

Football is The Game because it's universal. It's played all over the world. There are more nations filiated with FIFA than with the UN. Football has been used to unite peoples and prevent wars. It is played wherever there is open ground and a ball. No need for $100 worth of baseball equipment, football armor or hockey gear. It has become a universal language with no words, like chess or mathematics.

Needless to say, it is the world's most popular, most widely played sport by far. So I'm sorry to be the one to break the news, but you hockey, American football and baseball lovers are the weird ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

oleg

October 9th, 2003, 11:59 PM

Moreover, football is an integral part of Humanity Heritage. Here is a test:
When I say 1982, France-Germany, surely there are dozens of old geezers ready to supply me with the details ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Now, name ANY US sport action 20 years old and see if anybody have any clue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thermodyne

October 10th, 2003, 12:17 AM

Well, money talks and bull doody walks. Show me a soccer team with an 80 million dollar payroll. Show me a soccer team that Forbes values at .98 Billion dollars. That $980,000,000.00 for you Brits. Show me any team other than Football that has sold out 85,000 seats through 2038.

Thermodyne

October 10th, 2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
Moreover, football is an integral part of Humanity Heritage. Here is a test:
When I say 1982, France-Germany, surely there are dozens of old geezers ready to supply me with the details ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Now, name ANY US sport action 20 years old and see if anybody have any clue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Football doesn't even need to mention the year, just say Jet vs. Colts and super bowl.

Or show the picture of Riggins running over the Miami safety and ask what game it was.

TerranC

October 10th, 2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Erax:
Football is The Game because it's universal. It's played all over the world. There are more nations filiated with FIFA than with the UN. Football has been used to unite peoples and prevent wars. It is played wherever there is open ground and a ball. No need for $100 worth of baseball equipment, football armor or hockey gear. It has become a universal language with no words, like chess or mathematics.

Needless to say, it is the world's most popular, most widely played sport by far. So I'm sorry to be the one to break the news, but you hockey, American football and baseball lovers are the weird ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Amen. Although I'm assuming you meant Ice hockey when you say hockey. Field hockey is quite popular around the world.

Edit: IMHO, I think Americans would get into soccer only if they were to ever win the World Cup. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 09, 2003, 23:28: Message edited by: TerranC ]

oleg

October 10th, 2003, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, money talks and bull doody walks. Show me a soccer team with an 80 million dollar payroll. Show me a soccer team that Forbes values at .98 Billion dollars. That $980,000,000.00 for you Brits. Show me any team other than Football that has sold out 85,000 seats through 2038.So what ? You have one league with about 50 teams(sorry, don't remember exact number ) in 150M people market. In Europe, there are 30+ leagues with THOUSANDS of teams competing for about the same money. No wonder there is no such monopoly <shrug>.

In fact, in 2-3 years superleague may emerge if top football clubs get their way with UEFA . I hope it will never happen. Football is a people game still.

If American-style sport businees prevail, we will see Barselona moving to Turin, because of the LOW tax break for a new stadium http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Can you imagine this ? Just read Thermo' post again and get to grip that it is all about money folks, not about national pride or any such nonsense. Just pay, you suckers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Or we will move Dodgers back to NY http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 10, 2003, 00:24: Message edited by: oleg ]

geoschmo

October 10th, 2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
So what ? You have one league with about 50 teams(sorry, don't remember exact number ) in 150M people market. In Europe, there are 30+ leagues with THOUSANDS of teams competing for about the same money. No wonder there is no such monopoly <shrug>.

...

Just pay, you suckers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Or we will move Dodgers back to NY http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif First of all the Dodgers are a baseball team. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Your point about the number of teams isn't really valid. The 30 Team NFL is just the top level of professional Football players. There is Arena Football and several smaller semi-pro leagues, many of which likely outdraw some Pro Soccer teams. Then there are several levels of College football. Some of the bigger schools there out draw NFL teams in attendance. And literally thousands of highschool and youth Football teams. That's even bigtime sport in some towns.

oleg

October 10th, 2003, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
[QUOTE] First of all the Dodgers are a baseball team. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
...Oh, yes, I know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Just coul't resist because of the Bob Doyle' lowest point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . Not sure about NFL equivalent though . Rams may be ? or houston oilers (notice the low case please http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif ) -> Nashville Titans ? NHL is even worse IMHO. I lived 5 years in US. At first I tried to affiliate with some professional team but soon realized it is a crap and pure bull**** (if one exist of course). I stick with college teams since. They just don't jump around in a search of long buck and dumping loyal fans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Go Longhorns !!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 10, 2003, 01:21: Message edited by: oleg ]

General Woundwort

October 10th, 2003, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by Erax:
Needless to say, it is the world's most popular, most widely played sport by far. So I'm sorry to be the one to break the news, but you hockey, American football and baseball lovers are the weird ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif At least our fans only paint themselves and make loud noises at games. English soccer fans are world-renowned for being listed as WMD's. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

oleg

October 10th, 2003, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Erax:
Needless to say, it is the world's most popular, most widely played sport by far. So I'm sorry to be the one to break the news, but you hockey, American football and baseball lovers are the weird ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif At least our fans only paint themselves and make loud noises at games. English soccer fans are world-renowned for being listed as WMD's. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hmm. I do vaguely remember some disturbances after Detroit Pistons game not far ago?

Anyway, football is a modern equivalent of war. American football is a ruse to present leggy cheer leaders to the prudish customers.

Lads, can you imagine such a sceanary at Anfield ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif They' never walk alone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Baron Grazic

October 10th, 2003, 03:45 AM

Sorry after having watched both games of "Soccer" and "Gridiron" I would have to pass on both of them.
At a nil-all Soccer game, you are lucky if you see just one brawl while leaving the match, while the padded Gridiron players, appear to be more worried about getting hurt than playing the game.

Now Australian Rules Football and its cousin, Gailic Football, now they are sports. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I suppose I have to say how great the Rudby is too, since Australia is hosting the "Rugby World Cup" which starts later today.
Mind you I'm sick of their advertising - "Get your Rugby World Cup tickets now, and see a Once in a Life Time Event, that only happens every 4 years". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

General Woundwort

October 10th, 2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
Hmm. I do vaguely remember some disturbances after Detroit Pistons game not far ago?Possibly. But that's basketball. And even then, you don't see Pistons fans being rated as more deadly than the French Army (http://www.grudge-match.com/History/soccer.shtml).

Anyway, football is a modern equivalent of war. American football is a ruse to present leggy cheer leaders to the prudish customers. That's nothing. You should see what gets on the commericals during the games nowadays... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ October 10, 2003, 10:30: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

DavidG

October 10th, 2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, money talks and bull doody walks. Show me a soccer team with an 80 million dollar payroll. Which IMO is precissly the reason why I'm so turned off by professional sports in NA. Although never a football fan I used to be a big baseball fan. But when 99.99% of the players vote to go on strike with the wages they are making it really turns me off.

[ October 10, 2003, 11:43: Message edited by: DavidG ]

oleg

October 11th, 2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
That's nothing. You should see what gets on the commericals during the games nowadays... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I wish I could ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Channel5 has commercial ties with ABC and shows Monday Night and ESPN games. But during commercial breaks they go back to the studio and broadcast two babbling imbecile commentators whith less knowledge of the game than I do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ October 10, 2003, 13:22: Message edited by: oleg ]

oleg

October 11th, 2003, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by Baron Grazic:
Mind you I'm sick of their advertising - "Get your Rugby World Cup tickets now, and see a Once in a Life Time Event, that only happens every 4 years". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif It was a marvelious opening ceremony. Really good job. The game was tough. Argentina played rather well.

minipol

October 11th, 2003, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wardad:
OK NOW!!!!

Let's get a profesional US Football team to play one of your football teams in a mixed rules game.
You may run, but your gonna slow down sometime... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif How wbout they play a European rugy team instead? Those woosies wouldn't even step on a field with out 100 pounds of bullet proof armour. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hey! We play American Football over here too you know. Not widely know and not widely loved but the people playing the sport over here really love the game.
As for me, I also play in a team here in Belgium and starting my 3th season.
Woohoo! I'll never forget the rush (read: near cardiac arrest) when i stood on the field to participate in my first kickoff. Man, did my ticker go. Now, i'm a bit heavier so i'm the one giving hits http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Oh, i forgot to mention that i play soccer too. Indoor soccer to be precise. I'm not that super good but i defend well. That's why i started my own indoor soccer team. I get to play every time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I like to PLAY both games. But for watching: FOOTBALL BABY!

[ October 11, 2003, 00:59: Message edited by: minipol ]

minipol

October 11th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, money talks and bull doody walks. Show me a soccer team with an 80 million dollar payroll. Show me a soccer team that Forbes values at .98 Billion dollars. That $980,000,000.00 for you Brits. Show me any team other than Football that has sold out 85,000 seats through 2038.First of all, what has money got to do with it? Nothing at all. And if you say "$980,000,000.00 for you Brits", make the effort and convert it to pounds instead of dollars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

minipol

October 11th, 2003, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
First of all the Dodgers are a baseball team. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Your point about the number of teams isn't really valid. The 30 Team NFL is just the top level of professional Football players. There is Arena Football and several smaller semi-pro leagues, many of which likely outdraw some Pro Soccer teams. Then there are several levels of College football. Some of the bigger schools there out draw NFL teams in attendance. And literally thousands of highschool and youth Football teams. That's even bigtime sport in some towns.What you have over here in Europe with Soccer is that you many many professional teams like Oleg mentioned but that are even more amature teams where people play. I always wondered if you have such teams in the US. I know you have such baseball teams.

Thermodyne

October 11th, 2003, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by minipol:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, money talks and bull doody walks. Show me a soccer team with an 80 million dollar payroll. Show me a soccer team that Forbes values at .98 Billion dollars. That $980,000,000.00 for you Brits. Show me any team other than Football that has sold out 85,000 seats through 2038.First of all, what has money got to do with it? Nothing at all. And if you say "$980,000,000.00 for you Brits", make the effort and convert it to pounds instead of dollars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Now you are just being naive. Money has everything to do with it. American football does not have much grassroot support outside of the states largely because of the cost to equip a team. And in areas where medical care is limited, it would be foolish to play such a game.

The money comes from the fans of the game. Directly or indirectly by way of advertising. No other sport generates the revenue that football does. Many universities use football income to support a large part of their athletic budgets. It should also be noted that at the collegiate level and above, football is not a game that can be played on Sunday and be fit for work on Monday. So there is not much club football for adults. Many of the high schools here in the states draw 10s of thousands of fans to a game each week. Some high schools draw 50K a game, that�s a lot of paying people to watch kids play. Around here the schools draw a couple of thousand paying and about an equal number of students. And counting the prep schools, that�s about sixty high school games a weekend in one county.

While soccer is more universally accepted, it has nowhere near the ability to generate income. Even here, there will be more youth soccer in my town than football. But as these kids get to high school, the soccer players drop way off...

As to converting to pounds, email me if you need it done for you, I do sterling converts all the time. Perhaps you would rather have it in euros so that you will have some idea of its purchasing power.

Actually here it is 589,154,743.30 GBP, so skip the email.

While we are on the subject, any of you guys know why it�s called sterling? You Brits are assumed to know.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 02:57 AM

>While soccer is more universally accepted, it has nowhere near the ability to generate income. Even here, there will be more youth soccer in my town than football. But as these kids get to high school, the soccer players drop way off...

Maybe today. But let's see what whether that is still the case in 50 years or whatever. Soccer is still comparitively new to the States so your comparison is meaningless. When I walk past playgrounds these days in the US, they look like the ones I saw back in UK, everyone is playing football... err I mean soccer. In 50 years those kids will be deciding where the cash goes.

[ October 11, 2003, 02:03: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 03:02 AM

>When I say soccer is boring, it isn't because there is no action. There is always something happening. It's just that none of the action has any relation to the ultimate outcome of the game. It's 90 minutes of your life wasted watching a bunch of guys running around before they do some penalty kicks to decide the winner.

Geo, while I agree some soccer games are dull, you could say the same about any sport. Watch these games if ever you get the chance and tell me they are 90 mins of boredom...

England-Germany World Cup 1990
Italy-Brazil WC 1982
Argentina-Holland WC 1978
England-Turkey - tomorrow

minipol

October 11th, 2003, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
It should also be noted that at the collegiate level and above, football is not a game that can be played on Sunday and be fit for work on Monday. So there is not much club football for adults. Hhhhm. That's weird. Here in Europe, the amature teams play at sundays and then we all merely go to work on monday. Sure it hurts in the morning but hey, no pain no gain. It's really hard to imagine that you don't have average joes playing football over there.

minipol

October 11th, 2003, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by gravey101:
>When I say soccer is boring, it isn't because there is no action. There is always something happening. It's just that none of the action has any relation to the ultimate outcome of the game. It's 90 minutes of your life wasted watching a bunch of guys running around before they do some penalty kicks to decide the winner.

Geo, while I agree some soccer games are dull, you could say the same about any sport. Watch these games if ever you get the chance and tell me they are 90 mins of boredom...

England-Germany World Cup 1990
Italy-Brazil WC 1982
Argentina-Holland WC 1978
England-Turkey - tomorrowAnd involving my country:
Belgium - Russia 4-3 WC 1986
Belgium was bigtime underdog in this tourney and they finished 4th.

[ October 11, 2003, 02:06: Message edited by: minipol ]

Thermodyne

October 11th, 2003, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by gravey101:
>While soccer is more universally accepted, it has nowhere near the ability to generate income. Even here, there will be more youth soccer in my town than football. But as these kids get to high school, the soccer players drop way off...

Maybe today. But let's see what whether that is still the case in 50 years or whatever. Soccer is still comparitively new to the States so your comparison is meaningless. When I walk past playgrounds these days in the US, they look like the ones I saw back in UK, everyone is playing football... err I mean soccer. In 50 years those kids will be deciding where the cash goes.That's not true at all, I played prep school soccer in the 70's. And my dad did the same in the 40's. I will agree that it has become much more popular of late. But here the peak was in the early 90's, it has fallen off a lot since then.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 03:12 AM

yes, Minipol, I remember that game now. Anything but 90 mins of boredom... :-)

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 03:13 AM

The peak in the early 90's wasn;t really a peak IMO. That started after the WC here in 94. The kids weren't really involved, not like they are now. Most of the guys I work with are in their late 20's and have never played the game, and they would have if the ealry 90's was the peak. All their kids play now. The times are changing...

[ October 11, 2003, 02:15: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

DavidG

October 11th, 2003, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by minipol:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, money talks and bull doody walks. Show me a soccer team with an 80 million dollar payroll. Show me a soccer team that Forbes values at .98 Billion dollars. That $980,000,000.00 for you Brits. Show me any team other than Football that has sold out 85,000 seats through 2038.First of all, what has money got to do with it? Nothing at all. And if you say "$980,000,000.00 for you Brits", make the effort and convert it to pounds instead of dollars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Now you are just being naive. Money has everything to do with it. <hr /></blockquote>I do hope your basing this claim on more than the payroll of a single time. Since I gather there are many many more pro socer teams in Europe than pro football in America the comparison is meaningless.
And no money has nothing to do with making a good sport. If 10,000 fans pay $50 to see a pro foot ball game in the US and 100,000 pay $1 to see soccer game does this mean football is better?

Thermodyne

October 11th, 2003, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by minipol:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Well, money talks and bull doody walks. Show me a soccer team with an 80 million dollar payroll. Show me a soccer team that Forbes values at .98 Billion dollars. That $980,000,000.00 for you Brits. Show me any team other than Football that has sold out 85,000 seats through 2038.First of all, what has money got to do with it? Nothing at all. And if you say "$980,000,000.00 for you Brits", make the effort and convert it to pounds instead of dollars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Now you are just being naive. Money has everything to do with it. <hr /></blockquote>I do hope your basing this claim on more than the payroll of a single time. Since I gather there are many many more pro socer teams in Europe than pro football in America the comparison is meaningless.
And no money has nothing to do with making a good sport. If 10,000 fans pay $50 to see a pro foot ball game in the US and 100,000 pay $1 to see soccer game does this mean football is better?<hr /></blockquote>Your numbers tell the story. The NFL reports gate plus concessions to be about $180,000,000.00 a week during the regular season. Add to that the National TV money and the off site concessions, and your guys are going to need to be watching $1 soccer games for about 12 days a week. We have soccer on TV here, but it is a looser for the networks with the exception of world cup and Olympics. And the local pro soccer team can barely fill the lower deck of the old (small) football stadium. UMD just had a championship soccer game. They didn�t even need to use the stadium, and the tickets were given away.

I think the argument here is misplaced. Soccer is a sport for the masses to play. Football is a spectator sport for the masses. And while they are both sports, they really are like apples and oranges. Or lobster and shrimp. While of the same family, they have very little in common. And like it or not, in all but about 10 countries in this world, profit is the universal measuring stick.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 03:48 AM

>And like it or not, in all but about 10 countries in this world, profit is the universal measuring stick.

Not amongst the kids it isn't .... they'll play what they consider to be the most fun, and they're the ones who'll determine what will be profitable for the next generation, like it or not.

The times are changing...

[ October 11, 2003, 02:52: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

Thermodyne

October 11th, 2003, 03:53 AM

Originally posted by gravey101:
>And like it or not, in all but about 10 countries in this world, profit is the universal measuring stick.

Not amongst the kids it isn't .... they'll lplay what they consider to be the most fun, and they're the ones who determine what will be profitable for the next generation.

The times are changing...Bullcrap! They buy what is marketed to them. Sure there are always new trends, but dollar wise, they buy what is advertised.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 03:55 AM

Bullcrap yourself. Who said anything about buying? I'm talking about playing.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 04:00 AM

And of course, just to play devils-advocate of course, if soccer was so untenable profitwise, why are all the kids being marketed to to play soccer... just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Or maybe these markting guys know something you don't, or something you won't admit? You argue that soccer is profitless, then at the same time you say the only reason folk play in the states is because that is what is being 'marketed' to them, buy, excuse me if I'm worng, prople who are extemely profit-driven. Makes no sense to me...

[ October 11, 2003, 03:07: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

Thermodyne

October 11th, 2003, 04:04 AM

Originally posted by gravey101:
And of course, just to play devils-advocate of course, if soccer was so untenable profitwise, why are all the kids being marketed to to play soccer... just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Or maybe these markting guys know something you don't, or something you won't admit?Marketed how? Kids have always played sports. If soccer is such a draw, why is there so little of it on TV? There is more golf and car racing than soccer.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 04:12 AM

err, weren't you the one who said

>Bullcrap! They buy what is marketed to them.

And then you say

>Marketed how?

You have me confused. You appear to be arguing both sides...

>Kids have always played sports. If soccer is such a draw, why is there so little of it on TV? There is more golf and car racing than soccer.

You missed, or chose to ignore, my point, which was that most of todays profitabiltiy from sports, and thus what is shown on TV which is understandably entirely profit-orientated, is driven from the views of the wage-earners of todays society, 25-60 or whatever. This in turn is driven by what they leaned to appreciate as kids. I believe that the kids of today will be hooked on soccer when they are in that age-group, becuase that is what they are appreciating today, as kids. Like it or not, todays kids are tomorrows spenders.

Also, you kinda make my point in one way. Who ever thought 30 years ago that golf would be so huge ?

[ October 11, 2003, 03:17: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

Thermodyne

October 11th, 2003, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by gravey101:
err, weren't you the one who said

>Bullcrap! They buy what is marketed to them.

And then you say

>Marketed how?

You have me confused. You appear to be arguing both sides...

>Kids have always played sports. If soccer is such a draw, why is there so little of it on TV? There is more golf and car racing than soccer.

You missed, or chose to ignore, my point, which was that most of todays profitabiltiy from sports, and thus what is shown on TV which is understandably entirely profit-orientated, is driven from the views of the wage-earners of todays society, 25-60 or whatever. This in turn is driven by what they leaned to appreciate as kids. I believe that the kids of today will be hooked on soccer when they are in that age-group, becuase that is what they are appreciating today, as kids. Like it or not, todays kids are tomorrows spenders.

Also, you kinda make my point in one way. Who ever thought 30 years ago that golf would be so huge ?No, I read your statement for what was written. I was asking for you to qualify your statement.

As to golf, there are quite a few very wealthy developers that had it pegged. IMHO, golf fits the athletic ability and social tastes of a large portion of the population. It is also a game where training and practice are almost as important as physical ability. So Joe Needstodroptwentypounds Blow can be quite good at golf with enough practice. Not to mention that it is one of the few sports where a few bucks can get you in a game with a real pro. And for us non-hitters, we can drive the new Caddies and rub elbows for free.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 04:31 AM

>No, I read your statement for what was written. I was asking for you to qualify your statement.

ok, I qualified it. Feel free to respond. about soccer that is.

Thermodyne

October 11th, 2003, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by gravey101:
>No, I read your statement for what was written. I was asking for you to qualify your statement.

ok, I qualified it. Feel free to respond. about soccer that is.Unless you support your argument, there is nothing to argue. You asked why soccer is being marketed to kids. I don�t see much of that happening. The kids I see buying advertised sports items are more or less buying football and basketball items. In the stores I see soccer balls and shoes, no licensed sportswear at all. If you meant to say recruited, then that would be a whole different point to argue. And I would hope that you realize that this is just a debate, not a point of any real importance to the world. So my comments are intended to bait and solicit responses, not to cause any undue anger.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 04:54 AM

>You asked why soccer is being marketed to kids.

No, I didn't. I said that that is what I see most of them playing when I walk past playgorunds. You said, "They buy what is marketed to them".

My argument, which I support, is that soccer is not a big money sport today because the middle-age folk of today (i.e. those with the money) never played when they were kids. I believe that will change when todays kids become tomorrows middle-age folk.

>And I would hope that you realize that this is just a debate, not a point of any real importance to the world. So my comments are intended to bait and solicit responses, not to cause any undue anger.

I'm not angry at all... Just replying to your comments and pointing out where I disagree. Of course, refraining from using phrases like 'Bullcrap' when someone disagrees with you will always helps to keep the tone civil.. know what I mean...

[ October 11, 2003, 04:12: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

Thermodyne

October 11th, 2003, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by gravey101:
>You asked why soccer is being marketed to kids.

No, I didn't. I said that is what I see most of them playing when I walk past playgorunds. You said, "They buy what is marketed to them".

>And I would hope that you realize that this is just a debate, not a point of any real importance to the world. So my comments are intended to bait and solicit responses, not to cause any undue anger.

Of course. I'm not angry at all... Just replying to your comments and pointing out where I disagree.Well, I can�t really say much about what you see; it�s not within the bounds of my experience. But here, kids are not allowed to play football in school until they get to high school. And then only in an organized, supervised situation. So the vast majority of schools have no football. There is some peewee and youth football, but prolly not as much as soccer. And there is a big push to restrict that to kids 13 and older. At the high schools, soccer is a poor step child when compared to football. Soccer games are not played in the lighted stadiums that are built for football. And while football squads run into the 100�s at many schools, you won�t find any varsity soccer programs anywhere near that large. I should note that during the 80�s there was a shortage of soccer fields, so the county tore out a large park of baseball fields and built a huge soccer compound. It was a �Political necessity� they said. It would �support itself� the politicians said. Now it sits largely unused, and costs 1.5 mil to support in this years budget. The soccer mom voting block is seldom mentioned these days. Of late, it is the cyclist voting block that gets all of the lip service. And now there is a shortage of ball diamonds, so they are talking about tearing out some of the soccer fields.

gravey101

October 11th, 2003, 05:21 AM

Fair points. Of course I only see what is there today wrt younger kids (have only been in suburban US for 5 years). What did they play 20 years ago? I am curious. I agree with your comments about organized high school sports, but I suspect that is still being driven by the older generation, at least somewhat.

[ October 11, 2003, 04:22: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

oleg

October 11th, 2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by minipol:
... And involving my country:
Belgium - Russia 4-3 WC 1986
Belgium was bigtime underdog in this tourney and they finished 4th.I still full with rage about that game. Two clear offside goals and we were denied the deserved victory http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

We had arguably the best team in our history and to be so cruedly robed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Still, that game is worth remembering. Last World Cup Russia-Belgia game (we lost again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) was such a crap in comparison.

oleg

October 11th, 2003, 10:14 AM

Thermo, all you are saying is that football is more popular and makes more profit in USA. That is all. USA is a VERY reach country. Of course a lot of mony involved. But it is still less than 5% of humanity. Here in UK, all premiership games are sold out. And it is 9 games every weekend for 10 months. Add here FA cup, european cups, national, etc. I would not be surprised if all together there are more people visit stadium than all NFL games. And UK is about California size. There is a LOT of money in world soccer. It is just more evenly distributed between thousands of professional teams instead of only 30.

You ask why no soccer on TV, but footbal ? I laugh on it. Every week there are 10 if not 100 times more people watching soccer on TV than football worldwide. World Cup audience is 20 times the Superbowl coverage. See, you need TWENTY "most important sport event ever" to equal just one soccer game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

deccan

October 11th, 2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
You ask why no soccer on TV, but footbal ? I laugh on it. Every week there are 10 if not 100 times more people watching soccer on TV than football worldwide. World Cup audience is 20 times the Superbowl coverage. See, you need TWENTY "most important sport event ever" to equal just one soccer game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I think that this debate is really kind of stupid, liking sports is a subjective matter after all and I have no personal interest in sports whatsoever.

But I'd like to point out that I agree with oleg here. I'm from Malaysia and you have no idea how the masses of Malaysians follow English Premier League soccer, even though they have to stay up at ungodly hours (because of time zone differences) to do it.

And if you're wondering about the commercial dimension of it, Manchester United has official stores in Malaysia, Singapore etc. selling memorabilla for god's sake.

Edit: I forgot to mention one other thing. The ONLY reason why pay TV is profitable in Europe is soccer. 'Nuff said.

[ October 11, 2003, 09:36: Message edited by: deccan ]

minipol

October 11th, 2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by minipol:
... And involving my country:
Belgium - Russia 4-3 WC 1986
Belgium was bigtime underdog in this tourney and they finished 4th.I still full with rage about that game. Two clear offside goals and we were denied the deserved victory http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
<hr /></blockquote>Ha! We Belgians always got sh*ty refs. Last WC, we had to play against Brazil (anybody remember that game). They weren't overclassing us at all. Then this ref from turns down a goal form Wilmots. A legitimate goal!!!
The WC before that same story. They should really incorporate some system like they have in american football where a team can challenge a decision and the ref goes to the sidelines to watch the replay. If that system existed in football, we would have been 1-0 ahead against a Brazilian team that was playing subpar for their standards.

Alpha Kodiak

October 11th, 2003, 03:00 PM

To throw in my two cents, I was playing soccer in grade school over 30 years ago and loved to play the game. I would much rather play soccer than football (like I could play either now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ), but I would much rather watch football. Not really sure why, must be some weird, twisted glitch in the American Psyche.

Although, I'm a bit like Geo. I really prefer baseball (especially the year the Diamondbacks beat the Yankees in the World Series http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ). It is more of a slow paced thinking game. Kind of like SEIV vs. Starcraft.

oleg

October 11th, 2003, 03:20 PM

... Then this ref from turns down a goal form Wilmots. A legitimate goal!!!
The WC before that same story. They should really incorporate some system like they have in american football where a team can challenge a decision and the ref goes to the sidelines to watch the replay...[/QB]I wonder about it too. The generic FIFA comment "it will slow the game" or "it will undermine the referee" does not hold any water IMHO. Games are already overstreach 90 minuts and few more to allow the chalenge will not make any difference. Americans have an inbreed sense of justice and it is reflected in sport refeering. FIFA is an aristocratic untouchable family. It can become really nasty. Italy and Spain are real powerhouses in Football but get drowned by corrupted referees in WC2002 because of the unholly money influx from home team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Just my IMHO of course., but all those referee decisions stink really badly.

SPAIN SHOULD BE THE REAL WC FiNALIST !!!!!!

minipol

October 11th, 2003, 03:48 PM

Oleg, i'm with ya. My interest in soccer has gone down a lot because of these stupid refs. Really, all respect to refs. But they have to do something about it. Maybe add another ref. And DEFINITELY add camera support.
I mean, come'on. When i see a stupid mistake of a ref that really has a big impact on the game, i switch channels because i get so mad of the injustice that i start to boil.
That's what i like about football. 7 refs, cam support. Nicely paid professional refs.

TerranC

October 11th, 2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />... Then this ref from turns down a goal form Wilmots. A legitimate goal!!!
The WC before that same story. They should really incorporate some system like they have in american football where a team can challenge a decision and the ref goes to the sidelines to watch the replay...I wonder about it too. The generic FIFA comment "it will slow the game" or "it will undermine the referee" does not hold any water IMHO. Games are already overstreach 90 minuts and few more to allow the chalenge will not make any difference. Americans have an inbreed sense of justice and it is reflected in sport refeering. FIFA is an aristocratic untouchable family. It can become really nasty. Italy and Spain are real powerhouses in Football but get drowned by corrupted referees in WC2002 because of the unholly money influx from home team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Just my IMHO of course., but all those referee decisions stink really badly.

SPAIN SHOULD BE THE REAL WC FiNALIST !!!!!!<hr /></blockquote>I can just see where somebody could take this a step further. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ October 11, 2003, 16:34: Message edited by: TerranC ]

oleg

October 11th, 2003, 05:49 PM

I think 99% of football fans with agree with you, Minipol. The question is how to make it parctical.

Small and almost unrelated observation. I watched Brazilian football and referee always marked the kick spot with the instant paint. Nothing like this take place in Europe. Why ? Who knows. Help corrupted referees ? - I have no other explanation for this stupitidy either.

oleg

October 12th, 2003, 01:24 AM

Yes, it is a stupid debate, but why not have it, it is just for fun, right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For the record, I hate MU. I'm a Liverpool guy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Otherwise I would alredy tell that in Last 10 years MU sell enough replica shirts to cloth the whole male population of US http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

---

Oh, sorry, my math mistake here. MU sell only 1.8M shirts per year only ($50-$70 each). Still impressive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ October 11, 2003, 12:51: Message edited by: oleg ]

DavidG

October 12th, 2003, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
And like it or not, in all but about 10 countries in this world, profit is the universal measuring stick.Wow talk about a load of bullcrap.

DavidG

October 12th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
Yes, it is a stupid debate, but why not have it, it is just for fun, right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

hehe no kidding. I can't beleive you guys have turned this into a serious argument. I only started posting here becuase it was so obviously an unwinnable argument so is fun to yank some chains. Now you want to see a really exciting sport instead of a bunch of millionaires 'doing their job' come and join me tomorrow at the Word Cycling Championships in Hamilton.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thermodyne

October 12th, 2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
And like it or not, in all but about 10 countries in this world, profit is the universal measuring stick.Wow talk about a load of bullcrap.<hr /></blockquote>OK Lets hear your reason.

DavidG

October 12th, 2003, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
And like it or not, in all but about 10 countries in this world, profit is the universal measuring stick.Wow talk about a load of bullcrap.<hr /></blockquote>OK Lets hear your reason.<hr /></blockquote>I don't need a frikken reason. < long response sniped out cause this argument is just futile >

[ October 12, 2003, 01:31: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Thermodyne

October 12th, 2003, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
And like it or not, in all but about 10 countries in this world, profit is the universal measuring stick.Wow talk about a load of bullcrap.<hr /></blockquote>OK Lets hear your reason.<hr /></blockquote>I don't need a frikken reason. < long response sniped out cause this argument is just futile ><hr /></blockquote>You are absolutely correct; you do not need a reason. But without any support of your statement, I will feel obliged to ignore the post in its entirety. While that might not seem like much to you as you read this, you should ponder it a little further. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif