Starting tactics [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Karibu

November 27th, 2003, 01:21 PM

I recently started new game and I have been constantly calculating the balance to expand, build defences and research in the first 50 or 60 turns. Because you can do only one thing at a time in your space yard, you have to choose between colonyships, defence (platforms, ships, satellites) and infrastructure (research, mining and intelligence facilities). How long can you fool your opponent that you have strong defences when there are nothing? Can you make him think you are just trespassing when asking permission to send 20 ships fleet through his system?

Of course it depends of many things (how many players, how close, how big galaxy, starting levels, etc.) but basically you can do something as follows:

1. Fast growth. Build only colonyships, space yards and perhaps few satellites for palnets to fool opponents of defence. Neglete research, intelligence and defence facilities. Gives superb base for fast military vehicle production, though short of resources will be a problem.

2. Early take over. Build only few colonyships to colonize your home system, make space yards and after that build a fleet of militaryships to take over nearest neighbor in "All or nothing strike". Extremely risky if failed, but successfully done gives you great leap forward.

3. Middle way. Build little of everything. Propably not enough to stop cunning enemy to take over at turn 40 (you have cunning neighbor 2 systems away who decided to gamble all or nothing) and may get you trapped if your neighbor claims all planets around you. Sure way to get yourself as "minor power" but propably keeps you alive at the beginning.

I believe most experienced players do as number 1 as long as they see the first signs of aggression from neighbour. Then they switch emergency build of military ships/platforms for defence and hope neighbour does not know the status of your military strength. I like the idea of choise number 2, though it would lead quick destruction if miscalculated the strength of your neighbour and I don't like to wipe neighbours at first. I prefer flourish through trade.

Number 3 is propably something newbies usually do. They colonize and fortify their home before expanding. Though, of there are little left for conquer by then.

I would like to start a discussion of starting tactics, their differences, flaws and advances. Like I described above, there are advances and flaws of either ones but what is the golden line in them. *Ahh...* playing against you humans is marvellous http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Fyron

November 27th, 2003, 04:49 PM

Defense is for the meek. Keep the war in the enemy's territory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you emergency build BSY/colony ships on the HW, you can build WPs during the slow build period, which is sufficient for small Groups of attackers in most cases. Or just mines, which will stop them better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 27, 2003, 14:51: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Cyrien

November 27th, 2003, 05:04 PM

In the early game I pretty much expand like crazy.
I normally put about 10 small mines in orbit of each of my planets with max warheads tech early on. This stops most early rush people who haven't had the expansion to invest in heavy research to counter them. Don't underestimate the power of the mine field in the early game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Karibu

November 27th, 2003, 05:28 PM

Fyron is right. Defence never gets you anywhere in the long run. Early game it's purpose is psychological. To show enemy that it is not profitable to attack you and it would cost too much which would ultimately lead into smaller empire than other rivalries even if the war is won.

Minefield is good too. I always put some mines on orbit of every planet. But you don't get minefields very quickly and it has no offensive purpose os it is not the first one to research.

In PBW it gives you advantage if you know your neighbour's playing style (played against him/her before). Have any of you used this for quick take over?

Asmala

November 27th, 2003, 06:37 PM

What's your tactic at the beginning, do you emergency build BSYs or colony ships?

Suicide Junkie

November 27th, 2003, 06:51 PM

Build 2 BSY first. The planet then builds colony ships and missile scouts as nessesary.

Have the Two BSY E-build 3 more yards each before starting a colony ship to spend their slow time on.

At the end of the year you have 6 "Ready" BSY, and two more plus planet on SlowBuild.
You also have 5-6 colony ships or 10 warscouts en route to various destinations.

primitive

November 27th, 2003, 09:05 PM

The fastest expansion: EB (1 turn) build Colonyships only at HW for the first year. Settle the closest moons and small planets with 3 or 4 of them very early, building Shipyards (and maybe a few Rad and Org facilities). These will be available in time to take over production of colonizers when HW goes to slow.

Also send 2 or 3 of your first colonizers on landgrab expeditions, leapfrogging a system or two to make a base for further expansion. When you find a cozy system, don't go for that big breathable but colonize a small useless planet first and make a Shipyard. First build for this should be another leapfrog colonizer.

Compared to the BSY model, you will have more building capacity (and colonizers) after turn 14 - 15. You will also be spread out more, having grabbed more systems for yourself. On the downside, you will be very vulnerable against the rush if you got baddies close.

primitive

November 27th, 2003, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by Karibu:

Minefield is good too. I always put some mines on orbit of every planet. But you don't get minefields very quickly and it has no offensive purpose os it is not the first one to research.
Mines should always be first (or very very early) in the research queue. There is no better early offensive weapon than the mine. A lone transport with supplies and a few minelayers can effectively seal of several systems. When you have got a few ships with the mines, most players will withdraw to safe space until they can sweep a full field. Which is expensive early with only small ships and low level sweepers.

Fyron

November 27th, 2003, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Asmala:
What's your tactic at the beginning, do you emergency build BSYs or colony ships? Both. I build as many BSYs as I can afford to keep paying to produce, then build the rest colony ships. Some new planets get SYs right away as well (usually not the first couple, as I try to get those to be resource rich to allow for much more expedient expansion; you have to pay for all those new SYs on new planets somehow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Primitive, you are being a little simplistic on the BSY model.... it comes in many variations. You can do all that leap frogging by starting with a few BSYs too, not just only colony ships.

[ November 27, 2003, 20:46: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

primitive

November 27th, 2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Primitive, you are being a little simplistic on the BSY model.... it comes in many variations. You can do all that leap frogging by starting with a few BSYs too, not just only colony ships. Sure you can, only my way is faster http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Note: Conditions for the "no BSY" fast model to work is that there is 3-4 small planets/moons available in the homesystem not needed for resources and that game settings is no worse than default (medium planet, 20 000 min/org/rads). Anything less and you are going to run yourself dry.

se5a

November 28th, 2003, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by primitive:
don't go for that big breathable but colonize a small useless planet first and make a Shipyard. First build for this should be another leapfrog colonizer.
why???

Fyron

November 28th, 2003, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by se5a:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by primitive:
don't go for that big breathable but colonize a small useless planet first and make a Shipyard. First build for this should be another leapfrog colonizer.
why??? <hr /></blockquote>Because you want to build the next colony ship as soon as possible.

Sure you can, only my way is faster Not really.

[ November 28, 2003, 04:55: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

SpaceBadger

November 28th, 2003, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by se5a:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by primitive:
don't go for that big breathable but colonize a small useless planet first and make a Shipyard. First build for this should be another leapfrog colonizer.
why??? <hr /></blockquote>Because you want to build the next colony ship as soon as possible. <hr /></blockquote>I thought he meant "Why go for the small useless planet rather than the big breathable?" - at least, that is what I wondered when I read it. Why not build that shipyard on the big breathable if there is one available?

SpaceBadger

Fyron

November 28th, 2003, 06:57 AM

Because the small useless will just be the SY. The big breatheable gets colonized a bit later and used for resources, research, whatever it is needed for.

se5a

November 28th, 2003, 07:17 AM

but somoen else might get it, I still dont see the resoning behind going for a small one when you can have a big one.
whats 1 building space, the big one will eventualy build faster anyway due to more population wont it?

SpaceBadger

November 28th, 2003, 07:28 AM

Yeah, you'll be building lots of stuff on the big breathable, why not start off with that SY to help in the build rate when you get around to building the other stuff? The SY will work just as well on the BB as on the SU (small useless), so why not put it there?

Maybe it is just my roleplaying nature; when I am playing I tend to take on the viewpoint of the expanding empire, and it just seems more sensible to start with the best world in a new system and expand from there later.

SpaceBadger

Roanon

November 28th, 2003, 07:46 AM

If you colonize the big one with the Spaceyard, you will be busy building colonizers there and cannot build up the planet at the same time. Building up the planet would then mean canibalizing your spaceyard.
I usually do the same - small planet spaceyard, then colonizer, then big planet and build there w/o spaceyard - because I like to fill big planets completely with mines/research/whatever to make optimum use of the computer facility to be built there later. Of course, a lot depends on the settings, the starting system, and the neighbours (religious, anyone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Atrocities

November 28th, 2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by se5a:
but somoen else might get it, I still dont see the resoning behind going for a small one when you can have a big one.
whats 1 building space, the big one will eventualy build faster anyway due to more population wont it? Thats where the mines will come into play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Early attack aggressive player like to use fighters and troops to take weaker players planets and take out ships. Most effective are the ones who research stellor Harnassing (sp) early on as they get the solor panels and solar sail. Very handy.

Fyron

November 28th, 2003, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by se5a:
but somoen else might get it, I still dont see the resoning behind going for a small one when you can have a big one.
whats 1 building space, the big one will eventualy build faster anyway due to more population wont it? Eventually, yes. But, you are not concerned with eventually, but doing as much as you can in the short term. The small world is only going to build the SY to build colony ships. The big world you will want to build miners and such on first, which only take 1 turn. Spaceports only take 3 turns, and do not get built any faster unless you have at least 50% bonus to construction from pop and racial bonuses with a level one SY. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

November 28th, 2003, 07:55 AM

This requires not looking at the game from a RP perspective, but isntead from the gameyest one you can to get as far from any sense of RP and as much number crunching as you can do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Karibu

November 28th, 2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by se5a:
but somoen else might get it, I still dont see the resoning behind going for a small one when you can have a big one.
whats 1 building space, the big one will eventualy build faster anyway due to more population wont it? Eventually, yes. But, you are not concerned with eventually, but doing as much as you can in the short term. The small world is only going to build the SY to build colony ships. The big world you will want to build miners and such on first, which only take 1 turn. Spaceports only take 3 turns, and do not get built any faster unless you have at least 50% bonus to construction from pop and racial bonuses with a level one SY. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>I disagree this with you Fyron. I always build SY first on the big planet at the beginning. Why? In first 40 turns you don't have mineral/rad shortage so you can make SY and build colonyships in big planets during that period. When you are running low on resources, start making mines, etc. in there. Also SY helps if you need to get WP:s or satellites fast when enemy is on sight.

I know that building SY on every planet slows you a little bit down, but only temporarily. After 5 or 6 colonized planets, you have superior manufacturing base compared to any player who has not made SY's on every planet. The bad point in this is, that your science and resource production suffers because of this at first 30 or 40 turns, but you will catch others by turn 50...70 because you crabbed many planets by making so many colonyships with your many spaceyards.

Furthermore, I usually colonize only nearest planet in my home system and breathables if there is any (1-3 colonized planets before leaving system). Then I go and colonize 1 or 2 planets in avery system I encounter to spread as much as possible and lay claim into those systems.

[ November 28, 2003, 07:24: Message edited by: Karibu ]

primitive

November 28th, 2003, 11:41 AM

To be honest, I often colonize the big breathable at the same time (or earlier) than the SY planet. But I never waste time on building a SY (or space port) first on a BB, always going straight for resource or research facilities (only exception would be a small minefield).

Small Example:
Huge breathable wanted for research. You have advanced storage tech and decent research bonus (lets use 700 points pr research facility). Difference between building 29 Researh facilities first and then the shipyard and building SY first and then the research facilities (Total buildtime 34 turns).

Difference in research points produced by turn 34: 101 500 Points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Every turn wasted on building defences, colonizers or whatever before starting the facilities: Another 20 300 points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif down the drain.

primitive

November 28th, 2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sure you can, only my way is faster Not really. <hr /></blockquote>You are more stubborn than an old grumbler thrice your age. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Do the math, its no contest. Every BSY built during the first 10 turns will set you back compared to the �fastest� model. You will have a more compact and secure empire, I�ll give you that. But it will be significantly smaller at turn 30 - 40.

If you don�t want to do the math, I�ll be happy to challenge you (or anyone else believing in the BSY model) to an empire building contest.

Karibu

November 28th, 2003, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by primitive:
Small Example:
Huge breathable wanted for research. You have advanced storage tech and decent research bonus (lets use 700 points pr research facility). Difference between building 29 Researh facilities first and then the shipyard and building SY first and then the research facilities (Total buildtime 34 turns).

Difference in research points produced by turn 34: 101 500 Points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Every turn wasted on building defences, colonizers or whatever before starting the facilities: Another 20 300 points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif down the drain. That would be wise if you could colonize only that one planet. Consider this:

Turn 8:
Player n:o 1
Has SY (5 turns) and a colonyship (3 turns)

Player n:o 2
Has 8 research facilities

Turn 10:
Player n:o 1
Has 1 SY and 2 research facilities (2 turns) and second planet is colonized

Player n:o 2
Has 10 research facilities

Turn 20:
Player n:o 1
Has 1 SY and 22 research facilities (12 in planet A and 10 in planet B)

Player n:o 2
Has 20 research facilities

Yes, I know things are not this simple, but you get the point. Negleting research at first will expose you fast take over but pays back later with greater industrial base. And greater research.

I would accumulate this up so that you make at least 5 SY's at first 5 planets and then you start building other than SY or colonyships. Risky but pays off if you survive over that period.

[ November 28, 2003, 10:26: Message edited by: Karibu ]

primitive

November 28th, 2003, 01:37 PM

I think you misunderstood me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Going for fastest possible expansion needs a lot of SY capacity. My point is: Put your SYs on small planets/moons (first) and don�t waste time building facilities on your valuable planets.

Roanon

November 28th, 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by primitive:
You are more stubborn than an old grumbler thrice your age. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Took you a long time to notice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

spoon

November 28th, 2003, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by primitive:

If you don�t want to do the mathTwo players: player 1 builds only colony ships. Player 2 builds two BSY's. First BSY is set to emergency build for more BSY's. Second BSY is set to emergency build colony ships

Turn 5
P1: 5 colony ships
P2: 4 colony ships, 3 BSYs

Turn 11 (homeworld now on slow build):
P1: 10 colony ships
P2: 15 colony ships, 5 BSYs

Player one might have up to 2 more colony ships at this time, depending where he sent his first few colony ships

Originally posted by primitive:

I�ll be happy to challenge you (or anyone else believing in the BSY model) to an empire building contest.How much money do you want to put on it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

rextorres

November 28th, 2003, 09:59 PM

I always build at least one BSY on my starting planet and then set that to e-build whatever. This strategy has never let me down.

[ November 28, 2003, 20:00: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Roanon

November 28th, 2003, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by rextorres:
This strategy has never let me down. Means you never have lost a game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Or means that it worked better than any other strategey *you* could think of? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Clinging to the same old ideas just because they "have always worked" has been the most common reason for empires / armies / companies / whatever to fail for centuries...

rextorres

November 28th, 2003, 11:01 PM

In my experience spoon's strategy is the best for the first 10 turns - If you use any other you've put yourself at a disadvantage. Now as for the rest of the game there are so many factors that come in to play that of course it's not a guarantee to victory.

[ November 28, 2003, 21:02: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Roanon

November 28th, 2003, 11:08 PM

Again, in your experience. It *might* be true, but I would never be so self-confident about strategies tested only against other strategies that I could think of. Game designers usually do that kind of thinking, and are regulary surprised when a mass of players finds out totally new ways and show them how to play their own game properly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

se5a

November 28th, 2003, 11:15 PM

yea, just look how unbalanced the empire creation in the unmoded seiv is...
I hope V will be better balanced.

rextorres

November 28th, 2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by Roanon:
Again, in your experience. It *might* be true, but I would never be so self-confident about strategies tested only against other strategies that I could think of. Game designers usually do that kind of thinking, and are regulary surprised when a mass of players finds out totally new ways and show them how to play their own game properly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Theoretically your right there may be the killer starting strategy that may never have occurred to me or someone on the board is keeping a secret to use against us unsuspecting players.

Still, there are certain things you must do at the start of a game to win. You may have a different variation - heck I have different variations - depending on the circumstances. For the most part, though, if you stray too far from the "must dos" - bottom line is you're going to lose.

This I might add is based on playing humans. As far as the AI is concerned I never play it so I have no comment about that.

[ November 28, 2003, 21:41: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Fyron

November 29th, 2003, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Karibu:
I disagree this with you Fyron. I always build SY first on the big planet at the beginning. Why? In first 40 turns you don't have mineral/rad shortage so you can make SY and build colonyships in big planets during that period. When you are running low on resources, start making mines, etc. in there. Also SY helps if you need to get WP:s or satellites fast when enemy is on sight.

I know that building SY on every planet slows you a little bit down, but only temporarily. After 5 or 6 colonized planets, you have superior manufacturing base compared to any player who has not made SY's on every planet. The bad point in this is, that your science and resource production suffers because of this at first 30 or 40 turns, but you will catch others by turn 50...70 because you crabbed many planets by making so many colonyships with your many spaceyards.

Furthermore, I usually colonize only nearest planet in my home system and breathables if there is any (1-3 colonized planets before leaving system). Then I go and colonize 1 or 2 planets in avery system I encounter to spread as much as possible and lay claim into those systems. Obviously you have never min-maxed an empire... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

November 29th, 2003, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by primitive:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sure you can, only my way is faster Not really. <hr /></blockquote>You are more stubborn than an old grumbler thrice your age. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Do the math, its no contest. Every BSY built during the first 10 turns will set you back compared to the �fastest� model. You will have a more compact and secure empire, I�ll give you that. But it will be significantly smaller at turn 30 - 40.

If you don�t want to do the math, I�ll be happy to challenge you (or anyone else believing in the BSY model) to an empire building contest. <hr /></blockquote>Umm... who said anything about a small or compact empire? The BSYs build more colony ships that spread out in the same way you were describing...

Fyron

November 29th, 2003, 02:03 AM

I think some people are under the mistaken impression that I was saying not to build a SY on big breatheables... that is not the case at all. I simply was explaining the strategy someone else had mentioned, which includes building the SY on those planets AFTER the miners/researchers. If you don't need the SY right away (you have enough built on other planets already), then building it first is a waste of potential production.

primitive

November 29th, 2003, 02:06 AM

Okay, this is going to be fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Spoon.
I am familiar with the Base Ship Yard Model (BSY-M for short) you describe, but usually chooses the "Moon Ship Yard Model" (MSY-M) instead.

Main reason: For the BSY-M to be anything close to as effective as the MSY-M you have to "waste" 1000 points on Hardy Industrialist (HI). The MSY-M can be done only with 20 % SY bonus (you wll need to do some retrobuilding or use some early research points to get prop II or III). With the stuff I really need (Advanced storage, maintanance reduction + SY, attack-, defence-, production and research bonuses) there is only so many points left. I usually opt to put my Last points in Propulsion Expert insted of HI.

In my original post I claimed the MSY-M was better after turn 14-15. I done some more calculating, and without HI its turn 12-13, with HI break even will be at turn 17-18.

To calculate the MSY model I have used the first, third, fifth and seventh Colonizer from HW as special "Moon SY colonizers" using 2 turns of traveltime to the moons. These are not included in the colonizer sum. I even remembered to use 11 turns of EB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

BSY-Model:
By turn 18, the BSY model player has 4 BSY's and he has built 19th colonizer (or 5 and 17). All but 1 (or 2) of his BSYs are now in slow mode and he has almost no building capacity from his initial investment.

MSY-Model:
By turn 18, I have 4 Moon SYs and I have produced 21 colonizer, I get 4 more every second turn from my Moon SYs. I also don't have to pay maintanance for my SYs so my initial slightly higher investment will be payed back in a few more turns.

The BSY-M player had a few extra early colonizers (on the 3rd, 5th and 2 on the 7th turn) which either could have been used for expanding farther than the MSY-M player would, or to be 2-3 turns earlier in colonizing many of the ordinary (4 - 6 slots) planets nearby. He may have a few SYs on these by turn 15 - 20 but chances are (At least it is when I play this way) that he are producing significantly more resources as this point than he can use.

Running the MSY model is a fine balancing act when it come to resources: Done properly I will never run empty and I will never have an excess. I also have enough to use many of those first colonizers on land grab missions, so while I build fewer the first 10 turns, I will not settle less systems than I would running the BSY model. I will however stretch myself thinner, so I always make sure I get those minefields up early.

These are extreeme examples and as Rex says (he is the King after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ); Different circumstances requires different solutions.
Originally posted by spoon:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by primitive:

I�ll be happy to challenge you (or anyone else believing in the BSY model) to an empire building contest.How much money do you want to put on it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>Money is not an issue, I'll do this for the soul of your firstborn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

November 29th, 2003, 02:10 AM

That is assuming you make all of the BSYs do emergency build and that you aren't building SYs on the new planets...

[ November 29, 2003, 00:16: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

spoon

November 29th, 2003, 03:41 AM

Originally posted by primitive:
Okay, this is going to be fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I think what you are failing to take into account is that the BSY-M is free to colonize low-quality worlds and build shipyards there just like you are doing in the MSY-M. So anything you can do with MSY-M, you can also accomplish with the BSY-M, albeit 1-2 turns later, which, I argue, is insignificant.

Given that you don't even take HI, I'd wager that my empire will likely be double the size of yours by the midgame, and that the majority of your population would be taking anti-depressants to cope with the knowledge that they will soon be ingested by the ravenous Worms of Woe.

primitive

December 1st, 2003, 01:53 AM

Spoon and Fyron.
No I did not forget that "ordinary" colonies also makes spaceyards. The model just compare the output of the Base spaceyards with the "Moon space yards". I too build a lot of ordinary planet spaceyards. I have a goal of 10 (including the moons) by turn 20, but I will usually be little behind

Fyron:
Not using EB for the BSY's only make the BSY-model worse. If you don't want to calculate yourself, send me your setup and I will do the calculations for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Originally posted by spoon:
Given that you don't even take HI, I'd wager that my empire will likely be double the size of yours by the midgame, and that the majority of your population would be taking anti-depressants to cope with the knowledge that they will soon be ingested by the ravenous Worms of Woe. Hmmmm,
The Horde on anti-depressants. Not as long as there are fights to be fought, drinks to be drunk, and virgins to unvirginate (is that a word ?) .

How are we going to do this ?
A fixed map with only one player and then least number of turns to some goal ?
Score or number of planets are not a viable measuremnt of empire strength. Would fastest empire to make a certain size fleet with some spesific components on board be a better solution ?

Suicide Junkie

December 1st, 2003, 03:13 AM

BSY-Model:
By turn 18, the BSY model player has 4 BSY's and he has built 19th colonizer (or 5 and 17). All but 1 (or 2) of his BSYs are now in slow mode and he has almost no building capacity from his initial investment. How do you get only 4 yards after almost 2 years?

Even without minmaxing, you can get your BSY built in 2 turns.
Planet builds one BSY each 2 turns for a year. That's 2,4,6,8,10.
First BSY E-builds one each 3 turns. 5,8,11
2nd does the same: 7,10,13

Say 5/3 turns for a colonizer.
Planet builds 5 by turn 20
3rd planet yard builds 4 by turn 20 (1 normal 3-E)
4th planet yard builds 3-E by turn 17
5th planet yard builds 3-E by turn 19
1st vonNeuman yard builds 4 by turn 19
2nd vN yard builds 4 (1+3E) by turn 21
3rn VN yard builds 3-E by turn 17
4th vN yard builds 3-E by turn 19
5th vN yard builds 3-E by turn 20
6th vN yard builds 2-E by turn 19

A total of ... 34 colonizers and 11 BSY.
Without min/maxing construction bonuses.
Oh, and the first two BSY, plus the planet end up at normal build rate.
The 6th VN yard has 4 turns of E-build left too.

[ December 01, 2003, 01:17: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

primitive

December 1st, 2003, 03:37 AM

SJ
It was Spoons model, not mine. HW EB's 1 BSY then start with colonizers.

Your model looks mighty impressive.
Now, tell me how you manage to pull that off with a default start of one medium planet producing 8-9000 minerals pr. turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

spoon

December 1st, 2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by primitive:
SJ
It was Spoons model, not mine. HW EB's 1 BSY then start with colonizers.Just for the record, it was EB 2 BSYs, then switch to colony ships.

spoon

December 1st, 2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by primitive:
Spoon and Fyron.
No I did not forget that "ordinary" colonies also makes spaceyards. The model just compare the output of the Base spaceyards with the "Moon space yards". Right, but by turn 11, the BSY model has more Moon Space Yards than the MSY model, by the simple fact that it produces more colonizers. The only thing you can compare is homeworld output + BSY output. Anything else you are claiming to do with the MSY model can be accomplished with the BSY model.

Suicide Junkie

December 1st, 2003, 07:31 PM

Minerals would be the real bottleneck, yeah.
If you don't use E-build, and target your colonizers at the mineral-heavy worlds, the 50k starting resources should tide you over.

Those 9 non-slow BSY queues during the second year will only be burning about 13k minerals per turn even on E-build.

spoon

December 1st, 2003, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Planet builds one BSY each 2 turns for a year. That's 2,4,6,8,10.
First BSY E-builds one each 3 turns. 5,8,11
2nd does the same: 7,10,13

Say 5/3 turns for a colonizer.
Planet builds 5 by turn 20
3rd planet yard builds 4 by turn 20 (1 normal 3-E)
So you don't have your first colony ship until turn 9 or 10? Oof! Seems too slow!

Karibu

December 1st, 2003, 07:56 PM

In late game called Return to Hell I build 10 BSY's before making any colonuships. Though, that was full tech game and I got enough minerals at the beginning (and we had separate territories, ie. galaxy was formed of clusters which were not mutually connected). That was quite effective, until I had to mothball half of my BSY's because lack of minerals after making 20 or so colonyships. Consider that all buildings in planets were max. level.

primitive

December 1st, 2003, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by spoon:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by primitive:
SJ
It was Spoons model, not mine. HW EB's 1 BSY then start with colonizers.Just for the record, it was EB 2 BSYs, then switch to colony ships. <hr /></blockquote>I apologize then.

It even made me think that maybe I was wrong about this, and that your way might be better, so I started a test-game.
My result (tested it thrice on different maps): ---- Out of minerals at turn 8 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif -----
There is no way I can make this work even using every available colony slot for mineral production. And even taking some of the BSYs of EB, there is no way I have resources left over to build SY's on the planets.

Building one (or maybe two) Base shipyards might be a good idea in certain situations.
However; with a startingsystem with a normal planet distribution (and default start), I advise against it.

I will be happy to calculate/test any models and racials setup people would have, both counting actual colonizers built and resources made.

primitive

December 1st, 2003, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Minerals would be the real bottleneck, yeah.
If you don't use E-build, and target your colonizers at the mineral-heavy worlds, the 50k starting resources should tide you over.

Those 9 non-slow BSY queues during the second year will only be burning about 13k minerals per turn even on E-build. + About 4 K maintanance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Without EB you will run out of minerals turn 12 or 13 depending on mineral value on your closest planets.

You will also still be stuck in your home system, while players doing more conventional start already have explored / colonized 3-4 additional systems.

spoon

December 2nd, 2003, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by primitive:
My result (tested it thrice on different maps): ---- Out of minerals at turn 8 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I usually play on Good start, so I think that might make the difference - usually gives me enough time to stabalize and establish other mining colonies. My tests on Average Start (just ran 2) had me out of minerals by turn 10-11, but with 2-3 mining colonies just kicking in. In both those tests, there were no decent mineral planets in my home system.

DavidG

December 2nd, 2003, 03:09 AM

Originally posted by primitive:

My result (tested it thrice on different maps): ---- Out of minerals at turn 8 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif -----
It's funny how often this crucial little problem gets overlooked in all the theoretical models.

spoon

December 2nd, 2003, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by primitive:

My result (tested it thrice on different maps): ---- Out of minerals at turn 8 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif -----
It's funny how often this crucial little problem gets overlooked in all the theoretical models. <hr /></blockquote>Running out of minerals is a testament to how well it works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Atrocities

December 2nd, 2003, 04:17 AM

You guys who crunch the numbers make my brain hurt!

Fyron

December 2nd, 2003, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by primitive:

My result (tested it thrice on different maps): ---- Out of minerals at turn 8 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif -----
It's funny how often this crucial little problem gets overlooked in all the theoretical models. <hr /></blockquote>I don't think anyone posted theoretical models here, but practical models that had been tested in-game before. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Of course, not all of the factors have been mentioned.

[ December 02, 2003, 02:32: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

primitive

December 2nd, 2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by spoon:
I usually play on Good start, so I think that might make the difference - usually gives me enough time to stabalize and establish other mining colonies. Looks like we have been comparing apples with oranges here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Parasite

December 2nd, 2003, 06:12 PM

I have used a MMSY strategy (Modified Moon). It seemed to work well. I took over a game and was interduced to the BSY-S. I tried it and found it did have several weaknesses. (one was the lack of metals) Also building BSY happened in the same hex. Later you can build 10 colony ships in one turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , but they are built on the home world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . It means they must go farther and farther to get to a planet. To be fair you should also count this maintanance as well.

I did like the BSY idea though and am testing a min/maxed empire E-building a BSY in one turn. Have the HW build two, then a colony ship, then go off EBuild. The BS then Ebuild 3 colony ships turns 4,7,11 and 5,8,12. When they are done and slowly building the next colony ship, first planets can be coming on line to continue more along the lines of the MMBY-S. This gets me 2 colony ships on turn 4 (and an extra base) while before I had one ship t2 and one t4. The next turn would bypass the Old way and the homeworld would be starting to recover to get ready for the first war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What do you think?

[ December 02, 2003, 16:14: Message edited by: Parasite ]

Suicide Junkie

December 2nd, 2003, 11:14 PM

The way I usually play it is to build one BSY then go with colony ships and scouts as needed to find nice planets.
The BSY E-builds 4 friends, and they all start making whatever is needed.

Its good enough for me, and provides a solid industrial base immediately. Any planet with a spaceyard will get 3 BSYs to help out eventually.

Fyron

December 2nd, 2003, 11:16 PM

You only hit a lack of minerals if you overextend yourself on the BSYs, do not take a good minerals bonus at racial setup, and find no place for even a few mineral miners on colonies. The third condition is extremeley rare.

primitive

December 3rd, 2003, 01:42 AM

Parasite
Interesting twist. Should be easilly done without running into any mineral problems.

If I have understood your model correctly:
Compared with my favorite MSY-model where HW only builds 1 turns colonizers on EB for the first year (11 turns), this new model have 1 less colonizers built at turn 11. Your model also have the colonizers built on average 2 turns later so your colonies would be a little less advanced. You have 2 useless (on slow) BSY's but full capacity on HW and you would/could have your first moon yard coming on line.

My model would have no BSY's, a HW on slow, but 2 moon yards ready and the third almost done. Also my first moon yard would normally have produced a colonizer by now making it 2 less for your model. I would be more spread out due to the 2 turns earlier colonizers, have a bit more facilities but a bit less construction capacity for a few turns (In most cases only the difference between HW with bonuses + 2 BSY's on slow and a moon yard + HW on slow).

The little trick with turning the HW off EB early sure is different. Something like that would certainly be worth trying if the starting position don't give the option of (enough) moon yards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Karibu

December 3rd, 2003, 04:47 PM

I made a little test. I made a race with +20% mineral mining bonus, 3000 racial points, default settings on galaxy.

Test 1:
Build 5 BSY (� 2 turns) at your home planet. Then every BSY starts making colonyships (� 5 turns on BSY). On turn 15, I had 6 planets, 4 colonyships on route and no minerals whatsoever. My mineral consumption was far too great and I had to shut down my BSY's. Upkeep costs too much.

Test2:
Build 2 BSY (� 2 turns) at your home planet and then start building colonyships (� 2 turns in planet). Then every BSY starts making colonyships (� 5 turns in BSY). On turn 15 I had 8 planets, 2 colonyships on route and resource consumption not too big. I can build on every planet.

Conclusion: Generally at first 2 BSY's on home planet is enough. Later build more if you like. And this is with mineral mining bonus. With no bonus at all, build only 1 BSY at start.

Prove me wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Fyron

December 3rd, 2003, 08:26 PM

Using BSYs is more productive when you have a large HW rather than a medium one. Getting that initially wasted resource production used earlier is not a bad thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

primitive

December 3rd, 2003, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Karibu:

Conclusion: Generally at first 2 BSY's on home planet is enough. Later build more if you like. And this is with mineral mining bonus. With no bonus at all, build only 1 BSY at start.

Prove me wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif As all models, there are pros and cons.

Con for your model is your first colonizers only get built at turn 6. While your nice productionbase from turn 15 could make you recover from the slow start in a game with lot of room, you would probably get bLasted in a tight KOTH type game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Karibu

December 5th, 2003, 04:22 PM

Perhaps. I haven't played any KOTH games, though I recon that most of them end before 100 turns. I am tempted to try it later, after new year perhaps. But in normal games, where is many opponents, not many is willing to take risk of long and straining war at the very beginning. I should test it against computer to find out how to play KOTH type games.

primitive

December 5th, 2003, 06:33 PM

Fresh meat is always welcome in the KOTH league. Poro (or is it Hirvi) has always been one of my Favorites http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Just don't test too much against the AI, KOTH games are very different. The best players has an uncanny ability to sense the weak spot in any strategy/defence and act accordingly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

geoschmo

December 5th, 2003, 06:59 PM

I concur with Primitive. For one thing the AI in a one on one game is incapable of treating you any differently then they do in a game with many players. This actually puts them at more of a disadvantage then in a larger game.

If you truely want some practice before diving right into the league, I suggest finding a person or two to square off in a koth style one on one PBW game, but not count the results. There are are usually people around that will do so.

Asmala

December 5th, 2003, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by primitive:
Fresh meat is always welcome in the KOTH league. Poro (or is it Hirvi) has always been one of my Favorites http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I have read many Karibu's Posts but I have never noticed he is also from Finland. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Karibu, I'd like to welcome you to the KOTH league, if you decided to participate.

I think it's hirvi, poro has a different kind of horns. But Primitive, how you know these Finnish words? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif But anyway it's: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif