New SJ mod

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok, so what I want to include is:
- QNP, naturally.
- Finite repairs: Drones can be launched to repair 1 point per turn, and Last about 5 turns without moving, or 2-3 turns with movement.
Allows SYs to remote-repair ships, and means you have to spend money to repair your ships.
- Partial-effect mines: No sweepers, but mine deployment more limited... Good for slowing down the enemy, but not all-or-nothing anymore.
- Limited Planetary Bombardment: Most weapons will not target planets. Weapon platforms limited in scope to compensate. Ground combat almost required.
- Long-term GC : as in P&N PBW, 1 GC turn per combat, tough (30 hp) but wimpy (1 damage) militia and lots of 'em (1 per million people).
- Everything Tech Gridded: Everything... missile tech depends on armor tech, propulsion, warheads etc, and so on. Not a huge difference to gameplay, but enhances the research side.
- Leaky Shields & Armor: Gotta be leaky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Everybody gets hurt somewhat during combat.
- Balanced Resource Costs: As in P&N.
- Heroes and Cannon Fodder: All ships will have roughly the same maintenance costs independent of size. Strength goes up linearly, and cost to build goes up as the square of the size.
Allows you to build a pile of small cannon fodder ships quickly, or slowly build large ships for an overall stronger army when you're done (but it takes forever).
Should encourage a health mix of ships... more large "hero ships" after long stints of peacetime, and hoards of small cannon-fodder ships during war. Middlesized ships for turbulent times where you're not sure how long peace will Last.
- Possibly - Reduced Point Defense... fighter escorts can shoot down missiles for you until they're shot down themselves by enemy fighters.


Any other suggestions and comments?

[ December 21, 2003, 13:50: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Loser]

How does leaky work again?

[Suicide Junkie]

Shields use CA ability, rather than sheer hitpoints.
Thus, they absorb 20/33/50/66/80 percent of the damage depending on damage type. (Maximum... large shots can overwhelm it)

Leaky armor is just non-armor components with lots of hitpoints so they are often, but not always hit first.
With lots of them, you reduce the rate of loss of your critical components like engines weapons and lifesupport.

[Loser]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Thus, they absorb 20/33/50/66/80 percent of the damage depending on damage type.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">CA does 'percentage'? I thought it just took it off the top.

[Geckomlis]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Ok, so what I want to include is:
- Finite repairs: Drones can be launched to repair 1 point per turn, and Last about 5 turns without moving, or 2-3 turns with movement.
Allows SYs to remote-repair ships, and means you have to spend money to repair your ships.

Any other suggestions and comments? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have noodled around with this paradigm also.
In an unmodded game, you already spend resources to repair ships via the maintenance costs of the hull + components of the repair vehicle. You pay for that capacity whether it is in use or not. To stop paying, you mothball or scrap the repair vehicle.

Using a repair drone system mod, overall costs might not be that different than a standard game. However, what a mod like that will do is force you to dedicate your shipyards to new construction or repairs. As it is, shipyards can both build and repair, but neither action effects the capacity of the other action. With this system, shipyards can perform only one action at a time. I like that concept.

In addition, you can stockpile and/or transport repair capacity (just like supplies and units). This adds an interesting twist and more depth to SEIV logistics.

Potential problems:
You can not recover drones. Drones can be prematurely launched (and wasted) due to combat. My solution was to not allow drones to launch during combat. For example:

Ability 1 Type := Launch Drones
Ability 1 Descr := Can launch drones into space. 0 drones can be launched per combat turn and 4 drones can be launched per game turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 4

Add this ability to a “Repair Drone Launcher” component.

Another issue is the “all or nothing” Launch Units Remotely command during simultaneous games. You may want to add a variety of “Repair Drone Launcher” components with different launch capacities to help the player work around this issue.

My preference would be for repair drones to have an endurance of only one turn and not be mobile. Since they can be carried in cargo, they can be mobile without being autonomous. In this case, set the Drone Supply Usage Per Turn = to the supply capacity of the repair drone.

-Gecko

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by Loser:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Thus, they absorb 20/33/50/66/80 percent of the damage depending on damage type.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">CA does 'percentage'? I thought it just took it off the top. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">CA takes full damage, but adds some shield points - up to the amount of damage taken.

If you have a "quarter damage to shields" weapon, then you do 100 damage to the hull, generate 100 shields, and the next 4 hits do 25 shield damage each.
Thus, 4 of 5 shots did effectively no damage, and the shields blocked 80%.


Geckomlis:
I agree with all of that except the one-turn lifetime.
In order for the drones to remotely repair a ship, they need to be able to move, and then sit at the target and do their thing.
Also, if each drone Lasts 5 turns then you can get situations where you might want to waste some repair capacity in order to reush the repairs. (E-Repair, sort of like E-build)

EG:
Your fleet has 25 damaged components. You can:
A) Launch 5 drones, and completely repair your ship(s) in 5 turns.
B) Launch 13 drones, and completely repair your ship(s) in 2 turns, but waste 40 potential repair points.

If there is an enemy fleet 3 turns away, B may be a better choice, as you need your ships in peak condition for combat, and the cost of 8 "wasted" drones is acceptable.

[Geckomlis]

Geckomlis:
I agree with all of that except the one-turn lifetime.
In order for the drones to remotely repair a ship, they need to be able to move, and then sit at the target and do their thing.
Also, if each drone Lasts 5 turns then you can get situations where you might want to waste some repair capacity in order to reush the repairs. (E-Repair, sort of like E-build)

EG:
Your fleet has 25 damaged components. You can:
A) Launch 5 drones, and completely repair your ship(s) in 5 turns.
B) Launch 13 drones, and completely repair your ship(s) in 2 turns, but waste 40 potential repair points.

If there is an enemy fleet 3 turns away, B may be a better choice, as you need your ships in peak condition for combat, and the cost of 8 "wasted" drones is acceptable. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree that the one-turn lifetime is a purely personal preference for a certain game mechanic, i.e. using drones as counters for expendable munitions and/or spare parts. Your concept is just as valid. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif You could also achieve the same effect by allowing repair values > 1 on drones with the one-turn lifetime.

In regards to the mobility issue:
From a practical standpoint, repair drones will only be able to be used in the sector they were launched in or at the far side of a warp point they are ordered to attack. Impracticably, you could order them to attack an enemy planet in anticipation of needing the repair capacity in that sector. You could also order them to attack an immobile enemy ship or base for the same reason.

Gecko

[Suicide Junkie]

No repair sats, since they would never "run out".

I agree that the one-turn lifetime is a purely personal preference for a certain game mechanic, i.e. using drones as counters for expendable munitions and/or spare parts. Your concept is just as valid. You could also achieve the same effect by allowing repair values > 1 on drones with the one-turn lifetime<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't see how.
If the lifetime is only one turn, you waste at most part of one drone, and you would have to waste it no matter how rushed or relaxed your repairs are.
Except in cases of poor launcher-ship design, which we can ignore here.

[Geckomlis]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree that the one-turn lifetime is a purely personal preference for a certain game mechanic, i.e. using drones as counters for expendable munitions and/or spare parts. Your concept is just as valid. You could also achieve the same effect by allowing repair values > 1 on drones with the one-turn lifetime<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't see how.
If the lifetime is only one turn, you waste at most part of one drone, and you would have to waste it no matter how rushed or relaxed your repairs are.
Except in cases of poor launcher-ship design, which we can ignore here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, you are correct. I did not think that one through enough. Although launcher-ship design will be the devil in the details. IMO, you are forcing an unnecessary inefficiency on the player. But… I understand what you want to achieve (E-Repair) and you seem happy with it, so go for it. I am looking for something different (Spare Parts stockpiles) and that fits in better with my mod. In any case, I thought the dialogue was both productive and enjoyable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Gecko

[dumbluck]

You know, it's pathetic how I get these Ideas for the AoW mod, then the Mod Monsters like SJ think of them themselves, but implement them better...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif sometimes I wonder why I'm even bothering... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ December 22, 2003, 01:34: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

[Gryphin]

Will you be including a system for repair sats?

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, of the things in that list,
I know I came up independently with:
QNP
Finite repairs
Supershort GC
Leaky Shields/Armor

I know others came up with:
PD Fighters
Tech Gridding

Mixed/Unsure stuff:
Partial Mines
Planetary Bombardment
Hero/Cannon Fodder ships system

I certainly don't want to claim its all original ideas, and if you've already started something very similar, do let me know now before I get started.

[ December 22, 2003, 02:59: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Some numbers I've come up with so far:

Maintenance = Constant
Cost = Size³
Ship size : build cost multiplier : maintenance multiplier</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> 200 : 1 : 1000
400 : 4 : 125
600 : 9 : 37
800 : 16 : 15.6 (16)
1000 : 25 : 8.0
1200 : 36 : 4.6 (5)
1400 : 49 : 3.0
1600 : 64 : 1.95 (2)
1800 : 81 : 1.37 (???) (multiply all by 3, maybe)
2000 : 100 : 1.00</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For Cost=Size²
Ship size : build cost multiplier : maintenance multiplier</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> 200 : 1 : 100
400 : 2 : 25
600 : 3 : 11.1
800 : 4 : 6.25
1000 : 5 : 4.0
1200 : 6 : 2.77
1400 : 7 : 2.04
1600 : 8 : 1.56
1800 : 9 : 1.23
2000 : 10 : 1.00</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ December 22, 2003, 03:33: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[mac5732]

I'd like to see kamikazies more affective and used by the AI, espeically with fitrs... movable bases like in Delvemod, mount variations as well, my 2 bits http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

just some ideas Mac

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
you could always use my Colony Tech Mod (prevents cheesy colony tech trading between empires of different planet types)...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cheesy Colony Tech? What is that? I've only seen rock, ice, and gas. And why would you want to restrict players from trading Cheesy Colony Tech?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

I was not planning to support AI in this mod... many of the changes would be nearly impossible to handle.

Cranking the storage space is a good option...
Using the my popmodifiers file (peak resource production at 500m) would also make domed colonies very useful.

I hadn't planned anything about colonization until now:
- I'm thinking gritty tech, so I'm going to look into making the colonization techs unchoosable racial traits... Your home planet choice should (untested) force the pickup of one colony tech even though its racial, and you then wouldn't be able to trade OR research the others.
I'm also thinking it would be good to have rock/ice shared colony techs, with your off-colony costing 10x more (in rads for heating/cooling) than the home surface type.
Gas giant colonies would be cranked way up in size to keep it fair. 50 facilities on a huge breathable, gobs of population, etc.

[Ed Kolis]

Cheesy Colony Tech? What is that? I've only seen rock, ice, and gas. And why would you want to restrict players from trading Cheesy Colony Tech?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't want to give them any more incentives to nuke Narf's homeworld http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Gas giant colonies would be cranked way up in size to keep it fair. 50 facilities on a huge breathable, gobs of population, etc. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fair? I don't know WHAT would be fair in this mod... if you don't even have a hope of colonizing foreign planet types, that means that if everyone but 1 player picks rock, say, that 1 player will have a MASSIVE advantage, having no competitors for colonization... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I'd think it would be better to at least allow colonization of really foreign planet types... maybe for rock natives: rock cost = 1x, ice cost = 5x, gas cost = 20x; ice natives: rock cost = 5x, ice cost = 1x, gas cost = 20x; gas natives: rock/ice cost: 10x, gas cost: 1x?

And in order to make huge gas planets get extra population & facility space, wouldn't you need to either give that to huge rock/ice planets as well, or prevent rock/ice planets from being huge? (Which is actually something I was thinking of as a mod idea... if gas giants can't be small, why can rock and ice planets be huge? A ball of rock the size of Jupiter would likely (I haven't done any calculations) be hot enough at its core to be a brown dwarf, not a planet!)

[spoon]

A cool thing from the fantasy mod was to give each ship hull its own research branch. For example, in this mod, after you discover "Frigates" through regular Ship Construction research, you could open up a branch of research called "Frigate Improvements". Improvements could be along the lines of cheaper hulls, slighter bigger hulls, more engines allowed, higher defense/offense, hull specific mounts, etc etc...

Should fit well with your tech gridding you're already planning...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Don't want to give them any more incentives to nuke Narf's homeworld http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your puny nukes are no match for the power of the CHEESE! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ December 22, 2003, 17:22: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[Ed Kolis]

Originally posted by spoon:
A cool thing from the fantasy mod was to give each ship hull its own research branch. For example, in this mod, after you discover "Frigates" through regular Ship Construction research, you could open up a branch of research called "Frigate Improvements". Improvements could be along the lines of cheaper hulls, slighter bigger hulls, more engines allowed, higher defense/offense, hull specific mounts, etc etc...

Should fit well with your tech gridding you're already planning... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except that hulls, like mounts, can't be obsoleted... darn, who wants to start an open-source project and steal - uh, incorporate - all the best ideas from SE4 and all our other favorite 4X (and 5X http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ) games? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Nah, we'd constantly be arguing over whether to use warp point movement or free movement, or maybe a combination of both... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Still, I'd like to do it, if there's enough support... except then we might end up taking away all of Malfador's customers should we ever get anything playable... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Ed Kolis]

If you're looking for ideas to throw in (though I certainly don't want to see all mods become the same http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ) you could always use my Colony Tech Mod (prevents cheesy colony tech trading between empires of different planet types)...

edit: and to curb cheesy population trading, you could make breathable planets *different* from nonbreathables, not just better - maybe you get more pop space, but you get less cargo and/or facility space since the population tends to spread out?

[ December 22, 2003, 12:36: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Value improvement plants:
Planetary Radiation Filter: +1% minerals, -2% rads per year.
Planetary Neutron Pump: -2% minerals, -1% organics, +2% rads per year.
Organics Seeding Project: -1% minerals, +1% organics, -1% rads per year


The cost=size³ for ships and bases with constant maintenance is now in place.
Bases range in size from 1000 to 4000 kt.
More debugging going on...
Now the mounts are in, and the maintenance scales right. Mounts usable on weapons and non-weapons...

Almost time to hit the components, and then cleanup afterwards.

Preview at:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/Miscellaneous/sjmod_alpha.zip

[ January 04, 2004, 00:39: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[dumbluck]

Originally posted by dumbluck:
You know, it's pathetic how I get these Ideas for the AoW mod, then the Mod Monsters like SJ think of them themselves, but implement them better...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif sometimes I wonder why I'm even bothering... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't mean to imply that you were STEALING my ideas, merely that you independently came up with the same ideas as mine, but implemented them better. Just a bit of self-depricating humor for you... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

by the way, I can't wait to play this game...

[ January 04, 2004, 15:44: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

[Suicide Junkie]

BTW, the unchoosable racial trait colony tech thing didn't pan out.

Instead, I've gone with 2500-point racial traits for "Rock/ice/gas natives"
You should have to make some fairly big sacrifices to take a second livable surface... I'm also certain that more balancing will be needed in that area.

Shields, I've decided, will have four variants;
- Phased vs Non-phased
- Fully Leaky vs Semi-leaky
The first is obvious, the second not so.

What I have at the moment is "Shields" -> "Semi-leaky" and "Deflector shields" -> "fully leaky"

The deflectors have shield and crystalline effect of 2-14 points depending on tech level, at 40kt each.
The shields have 20-100 shield points and 4-20 regen per turn, per 40kt.

Combat sensors and ECM are downgraded to 5-15% effects, but I'll probably add more levels and use "add-on" components to boost their power a little bit.

Racial combat bonuses have tighter limits, and the base to-hit is only 60% -3%/square.

There will be no weapon mounts like in regular SE4, so damage will remain manageable with respect to the deflector shielding physics.
There will, of course, be some weapons with large punch and long reload or large size.
Heavy hits tend to overload and pierce shields, while small hits will tend to feel the full effect of the deflector's absorption %.

Mixing up weapons is also a known way to weaken shields.
Alternating size and damage types can reduce the effectiveness of shielding. Only during repeated hits from the same weapon will a shield reach its theoretical potential.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Instead, I've gone with 2500-point racial traits for "Rock/ice/gas natives"
You should have to make some fairly big sacrifices to take a second livable surface... I'm also certain that more balancing will be needed in that area.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does this mean you have to spend 2500 points for your first (required) one? Unless you hand out some free points (Advanced Traits can cost "negative" points) this up front cost might be somewhat limiting.

[Suicide Junkie]

At the moment, there is "Naturalists" at -3000 points for 60% of normal planet space.
Plus "Endemic Wastefulness" which doubles supply use at -2000 points.

[Fyron]

Those are in no way free points SJ. 2500 points required to even play is going to rule out 0 point games as an option, and make 2000 point games really tight... The point is to not be allowed to take the other colony tech traits at all. You have to research the other colony techs, not start off with them.

[ January 04, 2004, 17:16: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Fyron, you make it sound like reducing racial characteristics is impossible.
Heaven forbid that people would ever reduce an important characteristic or take a penalty trait in order to buy something else!

Taking Naturalists in order to buy another colony tech is quite reasonable, for example.
You double your colonizable worlds, and using 60% of them gives you 20% more facility slots, 500 racial points, a weaker homeworld and you spend twice as much on colony ships.

BTW:
I'm not too worried about things like "everybody chose rock".
Empires typically put their borders at the system level, and that one player that chose gas isn't going to be welcome in most systems. You'll still have to fight for the territory before you can colonize it.

[ January 04, 2004, 20:15: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Ed Kolis]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Mixing up weapons is also a known way to weaken shields.
Alternating size and damage types can reduce the effectiveness of shielding. Only during repeated hits from the same weapon will a shield reach its theoretical potential. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Where in the heck did you get that from? If you can explain that then you must really know more about SE4 than even Aaron does! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Not regular shields, but the leaky shields.

Since each hit generates shield points, you'll want to alternate your fire with a heavy hull hitter, then a smaller shield sapper to clear the way for the next hull hitter.

Hrm... mixing large and small wouldn't really work, except for the partial damage effect.
If you have a low-efficiency heavy weapon, and a high efficiency small weapon, it might work...

60 hitpoint armor...
90 damage Heavy weapon... size x
4x30 damage light weapon... size x total

Alone, the light weapons can't hurt the armor.
1) 30 hull damage, 30 shields
2) ditto
3) ditto
...
Total, 30 partial damage, 30 shields, enemy never dies.
ZERO damage per x Kt

With all heavies, you get
1) 30 hull, 90 shields, 1 armor destroyed
2) 30 hull, 30 shields
3) 0 hull, 90 shields, 1 armor destroyed
4) 0 hull, 0 shields
Total, 120 hull damage, per 4 tonnage x's
30 damage per x Kt

With alternating, you get...
Two heavies, and 4 light for total 3x's of tonnage.
1H) 30 hull, +90 shields, 1 armor destroyed
2L) 0 hull, 30 shields
3L) 0, 0
4H) 30 hull, +90 shields, 1 armor destroyed
5L) 0 hull, 30 shields
6L) 0, 0
Total, 120 Hull damage, per 3 tonnage x's
40 damage per x Kt

[ January 28, 2004, 23:17: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Fyron, you make it sound like reducing racial characteristics is impossible.
Heaven forbid that people would ever reduce an important characteristic or take a penalty trait in order to buy something else!<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No I don't... not everyone enjoys min-maxing though. Additionally, the fewer points available, the more similar empires will be forced to be, as there is less room for "optional" picks. 2500 points down the drain just for your colony tech reduces the amount of options you have available.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Additionally, the fewer points available, the more similar empires will be forced to be, as there is less room for "optional" picks. 2500 points down the drain just for your colony tech reduces the amount of options you have available. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is what I was sort of getting at. Make the first Colony Tech free by providing a "Take Me" Advanced Trait that cost -2500 points and does nothing for you. Then if someone wants to invest in another colonization tech, they can. Which is a really cool idea, btw. Following that idea, maybe you should make more research-based racial traits. Stellar Manipulators could start out with some Stellar Manip tech, etc etc.

[Suicide Junkie]

Other than Psychologically, how is picking characteristics to increase any different from picking traits to decrease (or not decrease)

If the game started with all the characteristics at 80%, and you had a pile of racial points which could just barely bring them all up to 100%, would it be any different?

[Fyron]

Decreasing a few traits is not at all the same as min-maxing.

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No I don't... not everyone enjoys min-maxing though. Additionally, the fewer points available, the more similar empires will be forced to be, as there is less room for "optional" picks. 2500 points down the drain just for your colony tech reduces the amount of options you have available.
...
Decreasing a few traits is not at all the same as min-maxing. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are just as many "options" for decreasing traits as increasing them, assuming you aren't a minmaxer.
What exactly is the problem?

-----

You mean we can actually have competitive races with all negative racial modifiers?
Burn the heretic! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
There are just as many "options" for decreasing traits as increasing them, assuming you aren't a minmaxer.
What exactly is the problem?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, it's suicidal to play without either 120 aggressive or defensive or Religious, and 110 maint reduction. However, you do have a point that reducing traits is an interesting way to go. I wouldn't count on seeing anyone purchasing non-religious Racial Tech traits though. There just won't be any points left after you buy the required traits (colony type, aggressive/defensive, maint reduction, adv storage). You may have some differences in empires, but they won't be as significant, I think, as the differences you get when more points are available. (And when I say "differences" I mean competitive differences...)

I'm speaking as a devout minmaxer though, so weight my opinion accordingly...

[spoon]

Actually, ignore my Last post! If you drastically reduce the amount of points available, I think there will still be room for variation. Like you say, the variation will be from what you reduce rather than what you buy. If you create your mod with that in mind, I think you can do some neat things with it. I'd suggest using costs along the lines of the PvK balance mod for characteristics - maybe even max out aggressive/defensive/maint reduction earlier. Make advanced traits cheaper (change adv storage to +10% instead of +20%?) and make racial traits cheaper (750 points?). And come up with more Negative-cost advanced traits as well. Those are cool.

[Phoenix-D]

And if you reduce the number of points, you change the min/maxing equation. These empires would be competing against each other- if getting to 125 Aggressiveness takes 5000 points, it won't be done by anyone, and it won't be suicidal not to.

[Suicide Junkie]

I believe I mentioned somewhere in the thread that I've clamped down the to-hit modifiers.
I'm thinking a max of 10% due to racial setup, and steep prices all around.
Repair skill has the potential to go double or triple (max 999%) with a pretty low cost per point. Should come in handier with the repair drones and leaky everything, too.

-----

Ship training only goes up to 6% at level 3, proceeds at one percent per planet.
It also takes up two facility slots per planet, so its a bit more expensive.
If you want 2% per turn, you can always do the planet/moon thing, but then you need a small or better moon, and you use Four facility slots on the project.

-----

At the moment, I've axed all the racial Tech areas.

Religious did have some cool stuff, so there is still a "System Ecological Center" and a System Counter-intel facility with some name I forget already.
They're going to be standard techs though.

I will probably add some more in later. Possibly making the "solid" shield tech racial, and perhaps some leaky organic armor style stuff would be cool as a racial tech.
The minor racial techs from P&N will probably find room here. "Tiny race", "Advanced Automation", and "Think Big" are pretty universally useful.

[ January 05, 2004, 03:45: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

It also takes up two facility slots per planet, so its a bit more expensive.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you mean one for fleets and one for ships?

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I believe I mentioned somewhere in the thread that I've clamped down the to-hit modifiers.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good!
Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
It also takes up two facility slots per planet, so its a bit more expensive.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How do you do that?

[spoon]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
And if you reduce the number of points, you change the min/maxing equation. These empires would be competing against each other- if getting to 125 Aggressiveness takes 5000 points, it won't be done by anyone, and it won't be suicidal not to. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Changing the costs of the characteristics, yes, but just reducing the number of points available to shop with, not really. In vanilla, you have to be able to hit the 120 berserkers, since they will always crop up (due to their effectiveness). Moot, though, for this mod discusion, since the point costs were in fact changed - something I missed earlier.

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
It also takes up two facility slots per planet, so its a bit more expensive.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you mean one for fleets and one for ships? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is one facility for the "Academy Classrooms" which has a training rate of zero, but a maximum training amount of 3,5 or 6%
Then there is an "Academy Lab", which provides zero maximum, and 1% rate.

On any particular planet, you get the best of each. So if you have only one facility, you get squat, but if you have both you get 1% rate up to 3/5/6%

[spoon]

heh, early contender for clever modding trick of the year...

[Suicide Junkie]

Except that I came up with it at least a year ago, but never got a chance to use it...

I have updated the preview mod thingy.
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/Miscellaneous/SJmod_alpha.zip

[Fyron]

Yes... SJ and I were talking about that long ago when I noticed a peculiar way to get around his intended path for training facilities in P&N, where you get higher max training levels but slower rates with higher tech level (so max of 10 with +3/turn to max of 20 with +1/turn).

[Suicide Junkie]

What was a bug, became a feature http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Fyron]

You are starting to sound like a game developer there SJ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, it now runs.
I've yet to do the weapons, as they'll be a deep grid tech forest, and I think I should do a bunch of work on paper first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Just using stock weapons to play with the hulls and shields and stuff...

Combat goes pretty slowly, so I'll probably be cranking up the number of combat turns. 90 perhaps...
Torpedoes definitely win out over APBs here... at least against large ships. The big guys have so much shielding, you need the punch of a torp to hurt 'em at all. The little 200kt drones get swatted real quick with the APBs though.

Should be a cool effect. Match the weapons to the size of ship you're facing... if you run up against the wrong type of ship, you'll either be harmless (little gun, big baddie), or inefficient(big guns, little baddie).

The accuracy settings look pretty good so far... Uber-experienced ships will be much trouble, though. Since 'Normal' accuracy is 50%, legendary ships will be like the heroes on TV and movies, striding through warzones and picking off snipers with a chain gun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I guess that'll be when you break out the missile ships and mine layers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Even with stock missiles, they are quite effecive in combat. (I'll be moving the serious missiles up the tech tree) The 100% hitrate and uber-stacking pierce damage will really hurt the big experienced guys if they run out of cannon fodder ships.

[Phoenix-D]

SJ, one problem you might want to address is moons. With your training scheme, a player that has breathable moons will have a pretty big advantage..

Consider:
1 Huge Methane rock planet
2 Tiny None Moons (rock)

Methane Breather:
Big breathable. 2 training facilities there.
No-breathe moons. 1 each.
4 training facs total (2 classes, 2 labs)

None Breather:
Big non-breathable. 2 training facilities there.
Breathable moons. 2 each.
6 training facs total (3 classes, 3 labs)

Hmm. Not -quite- as bad as I thought, but still an advantage.

[jimbob]

Hmmm.. another nifty mod with which to waste my life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'd just like to suggest that shields could be a higher tech tree, maybe stalling the introduction of them to mid game. Then you could fill out the early game with mainly armors and low tech options. My favorite, and I've yet to see it would be ships encased in ice or ice fields. I imagine these would be fully and partial shielding.

just my 2 bits USD (but Canadian bits are becoming more valuable, so that's only 3 bits Cdn. instead of 4 bits Cdn.)

[Suicide Junkie]

Regarding solid shields, I'm currently waffling between making them a racial tech, or just leaving them normal tech because they are fairly weak.

While I haven't actually thought about going into operational details, the ice fields would be a useful low-tech shield-like system.

-----

As for the moons & such, with the low cap on max training, I'm not worried.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok, I've got a half decent weapon tech tree set up now...

1) Researching Physics provides new warhead types; kinetic, chemical, nuclear, antimatter, polaron, quantum, ion, etc.
2) Researching Military Science provides new delivery mechanisms; projectile, pulse, beam, torpedo, missile.

Combine any two to produce a new weapon.
EG: Polaron + Beam = PPB
Kinetic + Projectile = DUC
Also, Chemical + Beam = Ripper beam
Nuclear + Beam = Incinerator Beam
Quantum + Beam = WMG
to reuse a few good names http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Researching level one of both warhead and mechanism, will open the specific weapon branch.

1) The weapon branch provides cheaper weapons
2) Researching above level 1 in the warhead or delivery techs will increase firepower/range/accuracy/etc depending on what makes sense for the combo.

[gregebowman]

SJ, any idea of a completion date? This mod sounds good, and I'd like to play it when it's ready to d/l.

[JLS]

Originally posted by gregebowman:
SJ, any idea of a completion date? This mod sounds good, and I'd like to play it when it's ready to d/l. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I second that, SJ your new MOD is going to be fantastic, I can't wait to play it.

[Suicide Junkie]

I'll be posting the files once I've got the core done.

Not sure how long it'll take.

What I do know I need to still do:
- Decide on basic stats for the weapons (7by5 grid = 35 weapons)
- grid 'em up (3 areas, 6 levels)
- clean up the tech areas, make sure everything is researchable and delete unused ones.
- Run through the components and throw in some reasonable prices for everything.

The rest can wait, and there will be plenty of tweakage room.

[JLS]

All right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Fyron]

Your tech gridder program will make actually generating all the comps take no time at all once you get them planned out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[QBrigid]

Fyron why don't you say something mean or rude about SJs work.
Then we can here him defend his long hours of work and programing as you do with other modders (you have issue with).

SJ your work is outstanding BTW http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Thanks, I also look forward to the sj mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ January 27, 2004, 10:15: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

[Suicide Junkie]

After late nights all weekend and a midterm exam monday, I've finally got a bit of time to breathe!

Time to try out the combat system with other people!

Tomorrow, Tuesday 17, at about 7:00pm EST, I'm going to be on IRC to arrange some fleet-action tactical combat.

Post questions and requests in the IRC tactical thread.
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=010977

[Suicide Junkie]

Mod update:
I've got base stats for the weapons, now.
Some nice pictures, animations, and even sounds!

Note:
Will add some fighter stuff next.
Once the Last patch is out, more of the ship weapons will be able to target fighters... beam weapons, mainly.
At the moment, only light missiles target fighters.

[dogscoff]

hi SJ,

Just had a quick snoop through the vehiclesize.txt on your new mod, and I have a few suggestions:

You are curretnly using the troopinfantry pic for both you light and heavy infantry. I suggest using Troopinfantry for light and eliteinfantry for heavy. There is a generic for eliteinfantry available in the proportional response pack.

Some shipsets are now coming out with minesmall/minemedium/minelarge, satellitesmall/satellitemedium/satellitelarge pics. You can use these without any shipsets resorting to generics whatsoever. Just change the appropriate lines to:

Primary bitmap: minesmall.bmp
secondary bitmap: mine.bmp

Primary bitmap: minemedium.bmp
secondary bitmap: mine.bmp

Primary bitmap: minelarge.bmp
secondary bitmap: mine.bmp

For traditional shipsets with only one mine image, that image will still serve all three sizes as before. However newer shipsets which include one or two extra mine images will use them.

Same for satellites, obviously, and drones as well if you feel like it.

[Suicide Junkie]

Thanks.
I was using this table (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostand.htm) to pull imagenames from, I suppose it is out of date now.

[dogscoff]

no, it's not out of date at all, it's just that there are a few more semi-standard image sizes out there as well.

[Suicide Junkie]

Is there an easy place to find those yet?
A link, or perhaps a second table of images would be handy.

[Suicide Junkie]

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/SJmod.zip

Now with basic weapons set up.

I still have to set up many of the component prices, and I'll be making a second pass over the supply usage to tweak the rapid-firing weapons downwards a bit.

[dogscoff]

Take a look here (http://www.invirtuo.cc/phpwiki/index.php/Neo-standard++) - if it appears broken, hit "refresh". It should work.

This is Mlmbd's neostandard++ imagelist. There are maybe 3 or 4 shipsets that include all of these, and numerous shipsets that include a select few of them. In addition, you have the Starlinerlarge image as used by Proportions mod, and at least a dozen of cargostations, cutters, light & heavy frigates, destroyers, mercships and stuff introduced by the adamant mod. These aren't particularly well supported by shipsets at the moment, but numbers are gradually growing. Finally there's the juggernaught image, which- oddly- isn't used in any mod that I'm aware of (although that doesn't mean much- I don't really keep up to date with the mod scene) but appears in a whole stack of Atrocities' shipsets and (I think) one or two others. I'd love to know where this originated.

So far I have resisted trying to nail all these down into any sort of new table or list, because frankly, I have too many other things to do, but it looks like maybe some kind of central reference would be valuable. Maybe this weekend, if I get time.

[ February 20, 2004, 08:48: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[Ed Kolis]

Mounts for making component costs a square progression! SJ, you're a genius! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif The best I could do was give the hulls really huge up-front costs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Now for the maintenance costs going up at a slower rate, are you going to have various Bridge components which can only be mounted on specific ship sizes? (e.g. Escort Bridge gives some amount to maintenance reduction, Frigate Bridge gives a bit more, etc.)

Oh, and is that a typo in the armor tonnages? 30 - 65 HP/kT is a LOT, even compared to Adamant light armor! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Maintenance reduction is built into the hulls themselves, and can't be disabled by damage.
In fact, the scouts have +1000 or so maintenance, since their component costs are so low.

The armor is leaky, and though the average ship has about 10hp/kt, they will be disabled long before they are destroyed.
Still, its is designed to be a slow combat model, and the number of rounds has been increased to 90.

Kalashnikov's frigate managed to survive in the tactical combat with 50% damage to all systems...
It was ready to collapse at any moment, though, as most of its systems were down to the Last backups.

[ February 20, 2004, 21:00: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Suicide Junkie]

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/sjmod.zip

Another update.
Troop stuff is mostly in, I still need to tweak the sizes and the descriptions a bit... I'll probably make it use some mounts to clean it up a bit.

Also adjusted planetary stats.
Hoo-boy.
A medium sized homeworld, packed to the ionosphere with tanks and infantry...
1.3 million hitpoints! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Don't go too overboard on planet defenses - it might cause a classic case of "realism" ruining game play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

A destroyer-sized transport can carry 10% of that planet's stock, so it shouldn't be way off.
Of course, if both sides are using hordes of infantry like this, the battle would take forever.

Upgrade to tanks, and the firepower to hitpoints ratio starts climbing. Put some artillery pieces behind them, and your battles will be over quicker.

The idea is that infantry are small and cheap cannon fodder you can throw at the problem to hold off the enemy.

The same situation with Large troops gets 900k hitpoints, and dishes out up to 60k damage per turn.
The infantry-filled homeworld only deals about 5k damage.
It is the heavier (and much more expensive) units which really do the damage.

I'll probably turn up the damage factor to 100%, rather than staying with stock's 30%

[ February 23, 2004, 20:24: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Suicide Junkie]

With these kind of numbers I don't really feel the need to completely prevent ships from firing on planets.

It seems troops act as armor, though. Unfortunate, that.

[Paul1980au]

Id set that level about 70% suicide looking at what youre proposing - also id would double the tech levels with troops you want at least 15 levels perhaps starting at 5Kt troops then 10Kt troops then 20Kt troops up to youre 900Kt make the upgrades spread out longer.

Id also like to see via SE4 updates troops being able to be put in limited numbers on uncolonized planets (just an idea to discuss) and before colonization is possible you would need to destroy them ?

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok, no, not 900kt troops...
900,000 hitpoints worth of tanks that are 24kt in size each. Just 4-5 thousand tanks on the planet.
Certainly more that is practical to build in a typical game, except perhaps for a large steamroller fleet that is going around capturing planets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The infantry are 2kt each, and there were upwards of 40,000 of them on the planet.

[ February 24, 2004, 15:04: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Captain Kwok]

I'm looking for a new PBW game. You should run a PBW test game with your mod. Perhaps 6-8 players...?

[Suicide Junkie]

I don't think it'll be ready for PBW testing like that for 3-4 weeks at least.

(I've got midterms this week, and projects next week)

[Suicide Junkie]

An update...
Hammered out a lot more details. Still have to grid the weapons out, but it should be playable now.

A few hours of playtesting on the way...

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/OldPirates&Nomads/sjmod.zip

[Suicide Junkie]

Alrighty.

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/OldPirates&Nomads/sjmod.zip

First of all, I reccommend starting with medium tech.

The early game is much easier now, what with colony ships able to move speed 4 (5 with Propulsion experts)

Beware! Colonizers made out of 200kt ships will eat your budget like there is no tomorrow.
Get extra organics and rads extractors as soon as possible to cover your colonization bill, and don't send out too many at once.
You will want to get up to the 400kt hulls quickly. They may take longer to build, but they'll be much cheaper overall.

Also, make sure you've got supplies on your ships.
Engines don't provide any inherent storage.

Missiles have infinite range, but are relatively weak and suck down huge amounts of supply. Take care in choosing where to use them.

Point Defense:
Your only defense against missiles is a swarm of fighters (with anti-missile pods) and your armor.
Shoot down the defensive fighters with interceptors of your own. Then send in bombers to drop missiles down on the enemy ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On ship sizes:
Remember, while bigger is better, it is also much more expensive.
Build moderate to small ships in swarms as cannon fodder, and save up a fleet of medium-large hero ships for important operations.

Don't be afraid to add armor.
1/4 of your ship is not too much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Take care of your repair drones.
Don't leave them all on a planet where they could accidentally launch in response to an enemy scout.
Instead, store them in cargo bases, and move them to the planet when you need to launch them in large numbers.

Bases:
Use these like you would satellites. They are inexpensive to maintain, so you can fill the skies with 'em. Infinite ammo missile launchers are tempting, but remember that the enemy will be knocking on your hull before you can reload.

[ March 21, 2004, 03:36: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Ragnarok-X]

Hey, i wasnt able to download your mod yet, but i guess its quite good. ANYWAY, can i play this mod VS AI ? If not, when will a PBW game be ready, i would like to join that one ASAP !

Go on, looking for further updates.

[Suicide Junkie]

The AI don't currently play this, and they'll never play it well.

Decent designs should be possible, and a good tech path is doable. They won't be able to build a good mix of ships, though. Shouldn't be total pushovers, but they won't have the tactics to win much, and they won't be able to repair.

This is still beta...
Start up a single player game, and try out the tech... design a few ships and have a go at the simulator...
Then hit me with the list of bugs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Ed Kolis]

Any reason the Science Lab component require unreachable levels of Applied Research tech? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

You changed the description of the Master Computer I, but not the II or III... and are they that much better than regular crew quarters, anyway?

Your hulls ought to have some backup pics - the general hull 2000 uses DreadnoughtHeavy as both its primary and secondary pics, so what if the player has no NeoStandard ships?

1kT armor? With THAT many hitpoints??? You don't seriously expect us to click hundreds of times on the armor icon for each battleship we design??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif How about some armor mounts... maybe a 10x cost, 5x hitpoints "Heavy Armor" and a 100x cost, 25x hitpoints "Ultra Armor"? (Similar to Adamant's armor only using mounts instead of separate components for the different levels of armor) Of course with those kinds of armor you would probably want to reduce the hitpoints per component of armor so it doesn't become nearly impenetrable like it is in stock SE4...

No multi-colony modules yet? They'd really cut down on micromanagement? How about the Colony Tech Mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

"Plasma Lance" is not capitalized properly... but ooh, those are some cool sounding troop weapons! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Torpedoes say their to-hit bonuses come from "continuous fire" instead of tracking ability! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

But you know, those weapons are EXACTLY what I've always wanted to do with a mod! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ion weapons sap shields? It's believable but not consistent with their behavior in SE4... and neither is it consistent with the Ionization Beam's description! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Speaking of which, those ion weapons also look rather weak, given that they damage only shields... or are shields that much weaker in this mod and ion weapons are designed as specialty weapons for boarding ships?

edit: No "engines only" or "weapons only" or other special damage types like that yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ March 23, 2004, 19:48: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Any reason the Science Lab component require unreachable levels of Applied Research tech?
I was working on them, but couldn't get them to work. So I pulled them out for now.

You changed the description of the Master Computer I, but not the II or III... and are they that much better than regular crew quarters, anyway?
Fixed. And they reduce the lifesupport requirements as well, so you save 5 or 10kt of space (depending on level) per computer.

Your hulls ought to have some backup pics - the general hull 2000 uses DreadnoughtHeavy as both its primary and secondary pics, so what if the player has no NeoStandard ships?
Fixed

1kT armor? With THAT many hitpoints??? You don't seriously expect us to click hundreds of times on the armor icon for each battleship we design??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif How about some armor mounts... maybe a 10x cost, 5x hitpoints "Heavy Armor" and a 100x cost, 25x hitpoints "Ultra Armor"? (Similar to Adamant's armor only using mounts instead of separate components for the different levels of armor) Of course with those kinds of armor you would probably want to reduce the hitpoints per component of armor so it doesn't become nearly impenetrable like it is in stock SE4...
The armor is intended to have such a high hp/kt ratio. One of the main reasons is to make sure the internal components comprise an insignificant fraction of the total hitpoints of a ship.
The hitpoints of each armor segment needs to be proportional to the regular components as well, since that is what determines the leakyness... it also helps that every hit normally destroys at least one component.

No multi-colony modules yet? They'd really cut down on micromanagement? How about the Colony Tech Mod?
I don't expect that many players will be taking multiple colony techs, due to their cost, but it can't hurt.
The multi-modules will have the same price and size as a single.

"Plasma Lance" is not capitalized properly... but ooh, those are some cool sounding troop weapons!
Fixed.

Torpedoes say their to-hit bonuses come from "continuous fire" instead of tracking ability!
Fixed.
Accuracy bonus was too high, as well.

But you know, those weapons are EXACTLY what I've always wanted to do with a mod!
Glad you like it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ion weapons sap shields? It's believable but not consistent with their behavior in SE4... and neither is it consistent with the Ionization Beam's description! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Speaking of which, those ion weapons also look rather weak, given that they damage only shields... or are shields that much weaker in this mod and ion weapons are designed as specialty weapons for boarding ships?
Don't forget to account for size, too. The ion torpedo is only 20kt.
Given the leaky shields system, there will almost always be some shields still up, so you can knock them down with a cheap ion bLast, then hammer the hull with antimatter or something.
By alternating some small ion weapons between regular shots, you can negate much of the enemy's shield effects.

No "engines only" or "weapons only" or other special damage types like that yet?
Those damage types have too much skipping effect for this mod.
However, with appropriate armor components, I think it would be a fair addition...
Probably in the quantum weapon types, and if the regular armor could be made to count as engines without adding thrust. That would have about the right effect, I think.

The weapons would be doable in the same sort of way, but the side effects on the weapon list in combat would be horrible.
Still, with tactical combat typically being a disadvantage for the humans, it wouldn't be that bad.

-----

Note: Fighters can only attempt to shoot down missiles while under computer control AFAIK.
In tactical combat, this means turning on "Auto" for the rounds in which you need them to shoot down incoming missiles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 23, 2004, 21:45: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Atrocities]

The armor is intended to have such a high hp/kt ratio. One of the main reasons is to make sure the internal components comprise an insignificant fraction of the total hitpoints of a ship.
The hitpoints of each armor segment needs to be proportional to the regular components as well, since that is what determines the leakyness... it also helps that every hit normally destroys at least one component. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a cool idea SJ. The way you have set it up that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

I also intend to reduce the number of combat rounds to about 30 or 40.
This will hopefully make blockade-storming a viable strategy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The idea being that even though bases are very inexpensive to maintain (1/4 the cost of a ship independent of relative size at medium tech), you won't be able to simply stack them up on warppoints and make the place impenetrable.

You will, of course be able to deal a significant amount of damage to an incoming fleet, but because of the huge armor everywhere, neither side will even come close to annihilating the other.
There will almost certainly be a very large number of survivors. If your targetting strategies are poor, you'll probably have a large number of undamaged enemy ships as well.
If you hurt most of them a little bit, they'll have to stick together and move slowly, instead of just abandoning the few crippled or destroyed ships and pressing on with a slightly smaller perfect-condition fleet.

Destroying a large fleet with another should involve a running battle with plenty of crippled ships falling by the wayside as you go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

That's my theory, anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I hope to be testing it a few weeks from now.

[ March 24, 2004, 00:31: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Suicide Junkie]

In the vs self game I played for a bit, the battles were very back and forth.

Both sides started one jump from each other, and the fleets of ships would end up dying in huge numbers at the warppoint. First one side would push through and win, crippling most of the enemy. Then the other side would retreat the damaged ships and push back with a fresh fleet.
The original side would be damaged and low on supplies, and take heavy damage. Then they would retreat to make room for the next wave.
Out of the 50 ships involved for each assault, no more than about 3 to 5 would actually die in the 90 rounds of combat.
Most of the ship deaths were from 0-move ships that got stuck in the kill zone for multiple battles.

Plenty of assault fleets would get past the battlezone to drop more troops everywhere, and the low-tech ground combat dragged on with rioting.

-----

I've made a bunch of bugfixes, and added some big city facilities for starting out on your homeworld.

Resource income has been dropped for a more reasonable fleet size. The homeworld should be able to support about 20 warships.

I've also decided to allow a repair facility. It is an extension of the Resupply Depot available at repair level 3.
Most of your repairs will still be done by drones, but if you have a low-value planet to burn, you can get 1 repair per facility slot per turn.

-----

I'll be rearranging a few techs once this beta game is over too...
I need to fix the wierd mix of techs you get for each level of physics. (Chemical weapons... and shields at the same time?)

[spoon]

Any reason the Science Lab component require unreachable levels of Applied Research tech?
I was working on them, but couldn't get them to work. So I pulled them out for now.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These should work as advertised (mostly), what problem were you having?

[ April 08, 2004, 00:51: Message edited by: spoon ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by spoon:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
Any reason the Science Lab component require unreachable levels of Applied Research tech?
I was working on them, but couldn't get them to work. So I pulled them out for now.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These should work as advertised (mostly), what problem were you having? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I couldn't see the research points actually getting used.

I just gave it another shot, but I'm not getting anything. Its probably some silly little typo, but I can't see what it is.

[spoon]

When you test it, be sure to check the Research Points Available field up at the top of the main Research Screen (F8). For whatever reason, the points don't show up on the Score screen. Ditto with the Intel Generation components (well, they show up on the main Intel screen...). The resource generation components (mins, rads, and orgs) don't show up anywhere, but they are being generated nonetheless...

[Suicide Junkie]

Fyron helped me get this one.

It was a typo in the ability name.

[Suicide Junkie]

A much improved Version now available:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/SJmodBeta/
The betadist.zip is the newest, and now includes mines.

Just need to grid tech the weapons, and playtest more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 28, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, the map analyser is taking longer than I'd hoped.

I think I'll just go with a simple SE3 style weapons for now, get the popmodifiers out and clean up a bit before posting it to PBW for some real playing without me having to process every turn.

[Suicide Junkie]

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/miscellaneous/

Here's an update.
Possible name for SJmod: Gritty Economics

The stuff you've already seen, plus refined weapons, and a very new economics model.

Minerals are still here, but organics and rads are out.
Replacing them are workers and energy.

Build any of a wide variety of power plants to charge up your energy stores, and build up the training and support facilities for your spaceworkers.

Facilities also have maintenance, so you have to keep things balanced.
If you build way too many mineral miners without the infrastructure to back it up, you'll find your empire experiencing blackouts and worker shortages.

[JLS]

SJ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Excellent economics based mod. Outstanding concepts.

[Aiken]

hmm, Gritty Economics Model = GEM Mod. Nice name.

[mottlee]

How about a link the one below is broken

[Suicide Junkie]

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/miscellaneous/
(as in my most recent post before this one)

I deleted the older copy.

PS:
I'll be updating that file in an hour or so.
Just gonna have lunch and then tidy up the tech tree arrangement.

[ May 29, 2004, 17:13: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Aiken]

Hi, SJ I have starange effects useing your mod: I've started a new game but all systems in the map are unnamed! So all planet have the same names: I, II, III etc

[Suicide Junkie]

Oh, right... that's on my todo list too.
Either choose a small quadrant, or steal a large systemnames.txt from somewhere until I update it.

BTW, the AIs cannot play this.
If you can't find a friend to play against, running both of two sides on a small map will make the dynamics fairly clear.

Just running one side against nobody works too, and you can explore the tech tree faster.

[Aiken]

Another strange thing - colony modules mounts affect other components too, making them 2 times smaller than usually.

And change names and description for Robo-Farmers and Robo-Rad Extractors. Where's no org and rads now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 29, 2004, 17:58: Message edited by: aiken ]

[Aiken]

I'm playing as Rock native race, and can't find a Ice or Gas colonisation tech to research. Are they forbiden?

[Fyron]

Feel free to use the SystemNames.txt file from FQM, with over 40,000 names.

[Suicide Junkie]

Re: Colony techs.

That is correct.
The only way to get colonies on foreign worlds is to capture or trade for them.

That is also why the cost for those traits is so high.

-----

Re: Colony mount
It also increases the cost by a lot, and the maintenance goes through the roof, so you won't want to use it on common components.

I thought I had it locked down already, but I guess not.
Fix coming up.

-----

Re: miners.
Thanks, I forgot about those.

[Aiken]

Hi, again.
Recently I've decided to speed up production in one of my colonies. So I pushed Emergency build and ... my production rate went down to a half of default prod rate. :-[====]
First of all I got frightened about hallucinations and such. But when I looked into the settings.txt:

Maximum Emergency Build Turns := 1000 wow!
Construction Queue Emergency Build Rate Percent := 50
Construction Queue Slow Build Rate Percent := 150

LOL. But, seriously, is it bug or feature?

[Combat Wombat]

Feature

[Captain Kwok]

No way, it's an SJ typo. The emergency build rate should 150% and the slow rate 50%.

[Alneyan]

I think it is indeed a feature, as SJ wouldn't have allowed for unlimited Emergency Build if it was quicker than regular build. This way, you have to put Emergency Build on, lowering your present build rates, in order to increase your building rates later on (once you turn Emergency Build off).

It is a very nice change gameplay wise, but sadly you cannot change the names "Slow Build" and "Emergency Build" as it goes the other way around here.

[spoon]

Wow, what a cool idea...

[Captain Kwok]

I never thought about it that way. That'd be an interesting way for sure! You have to 'pay for it' in advance rather than later on.

[Suicide Junkie]

I don't think there is anything I can add to this except a confirmation.

Excellent response time, too. I love this forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


-----

As for practical uses of the build rates, I expect it will work very well if you turn it on for your BSYs, and let them build a turn's worth of infantry on repeat build.
Then when you spot the enemy, you can turn it off and pump out the high tech ships you need.

-----

PS:
Sorry for the delay, I almost finished the updates, but got another great idea from IRC.

A racial trait which provides +1 range to ship weapons, and a second which boosts accuracy.

[ May 30, 2004, 15:48: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Ragnarok-X]

Hey SJ, i like the idea of replaying organics with workers. I would like to do that im my mod, too. Is it okay with you ? no patent or something ?

ty

[ May 30, 2004, 16:54: Message edited by: Ragnarok-X ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Sure.
You can grab my little worker-guy recolour from pictures/general.bmp

----

Updated!
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/miscellaneous/

EDIT:
Oopsy... the changes I made to sat stuff is useless since sats aren't sats anymore...
One more tweak coming up.

EDIT2:
Alrighty. NOW it should be good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You've now got two variations on satellite tech.
The civilian sats:
- Deployable by ships
- Maintenance Free
- Can be equipped with 10-20MW microwave relays
- Limit 5 per sector
- Cannot carry weapons

The War sats:
- Can carry weapons
- Maintenance Free
- Unlimited number per sector
- Must be built in-place
- Require repairs

[ May 30, 2004, 18:12: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Fyron]

Sorry for the delay, I almost finished the updates, but got another great idea from IRC. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is why everybody should stop by #se4 from time to time. See sig for instructions on how to get there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

A few smaller tweaks and fixes.

SJ's Gritty Economics Mod is available from the PBW file library, or from http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/GritEcon

-----

I'm also working on a tutorial page for it:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/GritEcon/tutorial/

It's not quite finished with race setup yet, but what's left is only the more obvious stuff; I made a point of mentioning the most non-stock-like stuff first.

[ June 05, 2004, 05:20: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[dumbluck]

this is odd. I've got a race that consistantly starts with a higher population than the planet can hold. The only advanced traits for the race are Rock Natives and Naturalists. Unless, of coarse, it's just that I've been away so long that I'm reading the game display wrong... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Paul1980au]

Goood work there.

[Ed Kolis]

Originally posted by dumbluck:
this is odd. I've got a race that consistantly starts with a higher population than the planet can hold. The only advanced traits for the race are Rock Natives and Naturalists. Unless, of coarse, it's just that I've been away so long that I'm reading the game display wrong... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably the Naturalists trait that's doing it - it reduces your max. storage capacity, but it doesn't affect your starting population.

Good to see you back around here, dumbluck http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[dumbluck]

Thanx. It's good to be back, even if I am stealing the wife's toy to do it.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[dumbluck]

Edit: Erroneous bug report edited out. Must remember to make sure that I’ve downloaded ALL of the Image mod’s various files before playing a modded game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ June 08, 2004, 02:37: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

[Suicide Junkie]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Aren't there any questions only I can answer? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

How tall are you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Well, you wanted a question only you could answer...

...on this forum at least...

[Suicide Junkie]

Actually, I seriously don't know the answer to that one...

It would also depend morning or evening...

Tesco or the Cap'n could probably guess better than I could, actually.

[mottlee]

OK it may have been stated allready, what facility gets Rads in this mod, found the farmer haveing tuff time with the rads (not the name in the Mod)

[JLS]

Mottlee

Solar Power Array or Fusion Reactor Facility - Both from Rad Extraction.

[ June 10, 2004, 19:23: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Geothermal too.

Solar power station is, naturally based on the number of stars.

Fusion reactors require more maintenance, but produce constant power independent of the planet's value and happiness.

Geothermal facilities are normal value-dependent producers.

[JLS]

Geothermal too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Great Econmics ay Mottlee.

I need to stop playing this MOD and get back to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 10, 2004, 19:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

[mottlee]

I have built some of these and I do not see any thing in the resorces area on the planet screen!!??? Hmmm will look again but I duno http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Thanks

[mottlee]

Originally posted by JLS:
Geothermal too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Great Econmics ay Mottlee.

I need to stop playing this MOD and get back to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Playing agains myself..this one is different so what you think is not always what you get, the space yards, there are 4 different ones some "Add" others replace http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and the "repair" comp will not do repairs, you need "Drones" for this COOL like trying to figure it out till PBW up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ June 10, 2004, 21:42: Message edited by: mottlee ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Yeah, the repair bay launches repair drones, which do the actual work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I was reading the AvP thread, and it gave me a good idea for a possible spacemonster race that would be good in this mod...

Basically, they'd just spam out troops and troop transports... No warships needed, they just try to overrun your defenses with massive numbers...

Given a fair sized fleet of transports, you probably won't be able to stop them all in one combat, and the rest will drop on your planets causing mayhem and destruction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

-----

As for fusion powerplants...
they use the new generate points ability, so unfortunately you won't see the production in your totals.
It will be added to your storage though.

[ June 10, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Aiken]

Before those nasty monsters could do some bad things on my planet, they should arrive there from deep space. And I assure you, my fleets won't allow them to do it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[mottlee]

Originally posted by mottlee:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by JLS:
Geothermal too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Great Econmics ay Mottlee.

I need to stop playing this MOD and get back to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Playing agains myself..this one is different so what you think is not always what you get, the space yards, there are 4 different ones some "Add" others replace http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and the "repair" comp will not do repairs, you need "Drones" for this COOL like trying to figure it out till PBW up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The "Rad" Facility generates 0 "Rads" the big facility works I have not built the one that works with the sun yet, when I get home I can send turn file

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by mottlee:
The "Rad" Facility generates 0 "Rads" the big facility works I have not built the one that works with the sun yet, when I get home I can send turn file <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The fusion reactors use the new points generation ability.
I know that dosen't show up in your reports, but it DOES get added to your storage totals.

PS:
I've got an alternate lightningbolt icon, which looks a little better, I think...
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/GritEcon/

[ June 11, 2004, 17:38: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Captain Kwok]

An interesting by-product of SJ's maintenance for facilities could be automatic resource conVersion facilities.

You'd use the resource generation ability with a negative amount for one resource, and a postive amount of resource generation ability for the converted resource.

[JLS]

Agreed Captain, this is almost a must.

[ June 11, 2004, 18:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Aiken]

You can even convert resources to research/intel points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And vice versa of course - useful option for late game when you have nothing usefull to research.

[ June 11, 2004, 18:54: Message edited by: aiken ]

[mottlee]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by mottlee:
The "Rad" Facility generates 0 "Rads" the big facility works I have not built the one that works with the sun yet, when I get home I can send turn file <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The fusion reactors use the new points generation ability.
I know that dosen't show up in your reports, but it DOES get added to your storage totals.

PS:
I've got an alternate lightningbolt icon, which looks a little better, I think...
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/GritEcon/ </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK so I will not "See" it NP I can live with that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[mottlee]

SJ, this is still Beta? weapons will not go above Lvl 1 for the most part are you still working on it?

[Suicide Junkie]

Yeah, I still need to grid tech the weapons, but that will just allow improvements to cost/power/etc rather than major differences.

Missile weapons level 2 gives you the ability to shoot down missiles with your fighters, so I made that available.

---
I'll be done university in August, and then I'll have plenty of time to finish all these things up.
For now just tweaks and bugfixes.

[mottlee]

OK, I've been playing it and could not get above Lvl 1, so far I have yet to run into another race to see how combat is I will let you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Oh, if you're playing SP, you should know that if you run it as tactical combat, you won't be able to shoot down the missiles with your fighters.

You need to play either strategic or AUTO tactical.

PS:
I have been told that PBW now has the June 6th Version installed and playable.

Be sure to select ALPU, as the AIs are almost certain to cause havok.

[mottlee]

Yup, SP, the AI is indeed dead in this one, they will build but some things realy bad, I think I should have just run 2 emps rather than 5, I like to run my own combat, have not figured out how to build good ships for the other http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[dumbluck]

Is this a bug?

The Intel attack Large Ship Bomb report for the recipient and the perpetrator doesn't specify which ship was hit.
"A bomb has exploded aboard ship ___ (emphisis on the spaces added) in the K'taktaxka system. We suspect the Test 1 empire of this horrible act.

[ June 30, 2004, 04:10: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

[Suicide Junkie]

It could be that the ship is dead, and as such, no longer has a name...

The large bombs are quite powerful, and unless its a big ship with plenty of armor, its going to die...

Thats why the project is so expensive and thus vulnerable to counter intel.

[ June 30, 2004, 03:33: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[mottlee]

SJ, in trying to run the combat sim, I get errors and lock ups, mainly something with se4 exe then and out of range error.

[Raging Deadstar]

Don't quote me on this but i think thats because you don't have the correct pictures. Does SJ Mod need the Imagemod combat pack and if it does do you have it installed?

[Suicide Junkie]

Almost certainly the combat pack, yeah.

[Fyron]

Thats why the project is so expensive and thus vulnerable to counter intel. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually that makes it less vulnerable to counter intel...

[Alneyan]

I seem to recall having read that SJ mod makes Counter Intelligence an offensive project disturbing enemy Intelligence projects. Am I confusing mods or is my memory truly faulty?

Edit: A quick glance at the Intelligence Projects file shows that they indeed use the Intel - Delete Project ability.

[ July 04, 2004, 18:47: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

[mottlee]

Hmmmm...Image mod combat pac....nope I do not have that one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[mottlee]

Hmmm. not on the Image mod site will keep looking http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Raging Deadstar]

It is on the Image Mod Site. Here's the Link to the file http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/imagemod/combatpack10.zip

[Fyron]

Originally posted by mottlee:
Hmmm. not on the Image mod site will keep looking http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not on which site, specifically?

[mottlee]

Site listed in the sticky above, is on the mirror site so I found it

[mottlee]

SJ, Maint facility will do no repairs, ran it for 3 turns and did not fix ship in orbit, unless there need to be something I am missing at the location

[Aiken]

Maintenance Yard is capable to repair 1 comp/turn. And if you have Repair apttitude lower than 100% it won't repair nothing at all.

[mottlee]

Originally posted by aiken:
Maintenance Yard is capable to repair 1 comp/turn. And if you have Repair apttitude lower than 100% it won't repair nothing at all. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not think I lowered this and I do not know how to check after game start (shows avg)

(edit) it is working??!! just, I guess needed to run longer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ July 05, 2004, 19:48: Message edited by: mottlee ]

[Fyron]

Add anything else to the sector that has a repair of at least one, and it will be able to. Remember, it is total repair rate in the entire sector that is affected by the racial trait, not individual components, facilities, etc.

[Suicide Junkie]

In general, you'll want to spam a few tens of repair drones into space to do your repairs.

The maintenance yards are nice for when you want to do either minor or long-term retrofits without having to keep building and launching drones.

For intermediate or volume repairs, drones are definitely the way to go. Just toss 50 or 100 up there, and you can grind through the heavy damage.

---
PS:
Check your abilities tab to see what your racial modifiers are for repair.
Unless your repair modifier is below 50%, two repair points per sector will be enough to get you started.
Below 50, just spam drones up there and forget about maintenance yards.

Setting your repair skill to 3 or 4 HUNDRED % makes the maintenance yards quite effective.

[mottlee]

So SJ when is the next up-date on your mod?

[Suicide Junkie]

Classes are getting thick now, so I won't be doing anything major for a while.

Mid august I'm totally done, and will have some of that legendary free time once again.

[mottlee]

Kewl! BTW what are you studing for? what major?

[Suicide Junkie]

I'm in Math -> Computer Science with Physics as a minor.

[mottlee]

I was going for MBA till I put my back out and the meds made it so I could not think right, I could read the same line 4X and still not understand it.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[mottlee]

Things I like so far, you can have more than 1 space yard on planet, build times look to be more realistic.
What I do not like, is the build time for ring world componets etc with space yard ships, may be right time wise but in a game you will never build one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Bug: supply componet 3,4 and 5 all have the same number but abilitys do change

[ July 24, 2004, 19:01: Message edited by: mottlee ]

[Alneyan]

Speaking of Ringworlds/Sphereworlds: choosing the wrong colony tech can have other consequences besides being very annoying for the game. Ringworlds/Sphereworlds are of your colony type and atmosphere, so a player picking Gas as his colony type, and then choosing Ice Natives, would have the very nice surprise of seeing an uncolonisable Ringworld. *Gloats at the thought*

SJ has written in the todo list that he intends to reduce the size of Stellar Manipulation components, so it should make these Ringworlds/Sphereworlds a bit more affordable (and so more Emperors will be able to satisfy their Imperial Egos).

[Suicide Junkie]

1)
The microwave relays say "Generates X Megawatts of power."
There is no remote mining option for power...

Did you want it reworded or detailed more?

---

2)
Oooh, the roman numeral!
Fixed.

---

3) What you can do to help right now is:
- Use Ebuild to store up construction rate for your big push to the ringworld http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
- Build the plating and cables at your planet, to make use of the fast build rates. (It dosen't have to be at the star Last I heard)
- Bootstrap up to a 4000 kt base spaceyard in order to speed up the building of the activation component. (Build a 2k, have it build a 3k, and have the 3 build the 4)
- A retroseries may be your best bet for actually completing the ring generator component... Exponential growth and all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Alneyan]

*Carefully bumps the thread, and tells SJ how great his mod is*

A small bug report so that my post will not be *completely* useless (not that this is an world-shattering problem):
The description for the Microwave Power Relay components is wrong, as it is the one for remote mining (while Microwave Power Relay use the Generate point ability).

[Alneyan]

Ah, I was speaking of the level II and III descriptions. The description for level I works fine. That will teach me to check for level I, even when level II is the same as level III.

[mottlee]

As far as I can tell you can only use bases fo ring/sphere world comps there is no ship large enough for them and then move and a base can not use engines to move to a star.

(Edit) E-build goes slower (on mine at least) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ July 25, 2004, 14:44: Message edited by: mottlee ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by Alneyan:
Ah, I was speaking of the level II and III descriptions. The description for level I works fine. That will teach me to check for level I, even when level II is the same as level III. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ooooh, I was looking at the ability descriptions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
Component descriptions fixed.


Originally posted by mottlee:
As far as I can tell you can only use bases fo ring/sphere world comps there is no ship large enough for them and then move and a base can not use engines to move to a star.
(Edit) E-build goes slower (on mine at least) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but I believe the plating/cables only have to be somewhere in the system, not right on the star.

By turning on E-build, you start saving up construction rate.
It goes slower at first, then when you turn off Ebuild, you get a burst of speed.

Overall, your SY will put out the same amount of production, but if its idle, you may as well save half that rate for a rainy day.

Also, at the beginning, your homeworld will probably be able to pump out colony ships and scouts 1 per turn, even at half rate.
So, you can store up rate with Ebuild, and then when you need to build your 600kt warships (or ringworld parts), you can turn it off and pump them out faster.

[ July 25, 2004, 15:44: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[mottlee]

I thought the componets needed to be at the star...OK I will give that a try, and will try the E-build too, sounds confusing but I think I understand http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Loser]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I believe the plating/cables only have to be somewhere in the system, not right on the star.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whoa!

Is this true in Stock SE IV?

This would change a great many things.

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Loser:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I believe the plating/cables only have to be somewhere in the system, not right on the star.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whoa!

Is this true in Stock SE IV?

This would change a great many things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. They have to be on top of the star in stock.

[Suicide Junkie]

As I recall, someone posted about trying to build a double or triple molly simultaneously.

The end result being that when the first ring was completed, it used up the plating and cables around the other star(s). (All of it in the system as I recall)

[Suicide Junkie]

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/GritEcon/

New Version up.
Most weapons are able to target planets now, so there shouldn't be any more combat with idle warships.

You can now build civil defense bunkers (weapon platforms, without weapons, but lots of hitpoints), so even though the troop transports will be undaunted, at least you won't get glassed by the warships very easily.

I've also improved the troops a bit more...
- The troop droids now have the same hitpoints as the soldiers, but cost 150/0/250
- The infantry armor has been increased to 60hp
- Light Vehicle armor also increased to 60hp
- Medium Vehicle armor is now available. (2kt, 500 minerals, 140 hp)
- Heavy Vehicle armor increased to 300 hp. Now restricted to medium and large troops.
- Troop weapons doubled in strength.
- Auxiliary weapons; DU pistol/grenades. 0kt, 1 damage. Cost 20/0/10, limit one per troop.

* Soldiers will be your best bet for infantry, due to the price, although if you have the production capacity to pay the bills, the droids can compact more power into a dropship.
* Droids vs Soldiers in a small troop are a toss up, especially when you have researched up to the plasma lance.
* For large troops, the price difference is too small to really matter, so droids plus some extra armor are the easy choice.


PLUS!
As a bonus, I updated the mod name on the intro screens, and added a few touches to the scene to make it more representative of the mod physics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[mottlee]

Will this affect saved game???

[Suicide Junkie]

Yes, it will.
I've been inserting the new stuff where it will look good in the mod, although it would be possible to rearrange them so it does work...

[mottlee]

That's OK....can start over http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[mottlee]

Just thought....There are no WP in this one, are you going to add them?...not that I miss them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

105 has platforms, though they could hardly be called weapon platforms. Just planetary armor, basically.

One of the original decisions was to not give planets weapons...
Which means you don't need to fire back at planets...
Which makes the troops more important, and easier to drop.

Planets don't get weapons themselves, although they can carry piles of fighter-bombers and you can fill the skies with war satellites.

PS:
You may need to research Civil Defense first.

[ July 26, 2004, 20:34: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[mottlee]

Cool I D/Led 105 now to see how it runs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[mottlee]

Cool so far running 3 Emp's and guess what!!!! I start right next to one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Yeah, its really wierd...
The Last few 2-player games I tried, we started right beside each other despite the "evenly spread" option being turned on.

[Suicide Junkie]

With the help of the Map Analyser (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Tools/rar/), I've now got a fair quadrant setup.
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/GritEcon/

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Type of Race || Advantage/Disadvantage
----------------++----------------------
Gas Giant || Fewest Colony ships needed
|| Lowest Construction Rates
|| Highest Resource Rates
----------------++----------------------
Rock || ~225% more colonies needed
|| ~170% construction rate
|| ~85% resource rate
----------------++----------------------
Ice || ~300% more colonies needed
|| ~200% construction rate
|| ~80% resource rate
----------------++----------------------
&quot;None&quot; breather || Increased Construction Rate
(Any Surface) || Decreased Resource Rate
---------------------------------------</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ July 31, 2004, 19:23: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Fyron]

How do you get that output???

In GritEcon, there is a typo in the Planetary Volcanic Inductor facility:


Ability 2 Type := Planet - Change Organics Value
Ability 2 Descr := Decreases the local standard of living by 2% per year.
Ability 2 Val 1 := -1
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0

[Suicide Junkie]

Ratios of the number of colonies per system and production rates.

[Fyron]

Can you make the program do that on it's own? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

There are zillions of numbers on the screen there...
If I were to display ratios of all the numbers, it would be incredibly cluttered and mostly useless.

Just pick the values of interest for your particular mod, and post them.

[Fyron]

I didn't mean display them all... have some export options to export various Groups of statistical info to a text file. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Alneyan]

Even if they say "No news is good news"... *Bumps the thread back to first page* I do not intend to pester you SJ, but has the mod evolved since your Last Posts? Or has the baneful school prevented you from working on it?

[Suicide Junkie]

Hmm, probably a little bit.
I've been distracted with other projects in the meantime.

I've just finished a Schlock Mercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com) shipset, and am just waiting for approval from Mr Taylor to post it.

Also, for those who have StarFury kicking around, I've updated the P&amp;N mod for it.

-----

106 is the latest Version, but I'll be getting back to the mod soon.

Are there any suggestions or reccomendations?

[Suicide Junkie]

Hrm... 10x20x20 grid techs look to be fairly large...

Who here would mind spending 160 megs of harddrive space on just one components.txt file?

BTW: The download would still fit on a pair of floppies (2.5megs) for modem Users, but it'll be 160+ megs after unzipping.

[Alneyan]

My main suggestion/comment/wish would be the return of basic/advanced/elite ECM/Combat Sensors components, rather than a single one as it is currently the case. Or does it fall in the tech-gridded area?

I have no problem with having a 160 megs file myself; after all, even if I needed the space, compressing it again (when not playing SEIV) would do the trick.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok, A bit of a problem... I'm not getting any errors, but neither am I getting the new game button.

Attached is the updated components.txt (476 kb)
Would anybody with lots of RAM care to try it out?

(Be sure to be patient when the loading process gets to the components.txt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

[Phoenix-D]

SJ, how many grids did you DO? The file is 50 megs unpacked!

I assume it doesn't require any other modded files?

[Suicide Junkie]

Just 35 weapons, with a 10x10x10 grid each.

[Suicide Junkie]

Attached is an updated techarea.txt to use.

The base of the mod is here:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/GritEcon/GritEcon104.zip

[Fyron]

SE4 didn't let me start a game after it finally finished loading. Used up around 470 MBs of RAM in the end.

[Alneyan]

Same here; SEIV can load the mod in a few minutes, but will not allow me to do anything but quit.

Could it be that there is a hard limit on the maximum number of components? (Perhaps not the magic number of 65,000 and some here though)

[Suicide Junkie]

I got it!

It appears that SE4 has a limit of 2^15 (32k) components.
Attached is a techarea.txt and components.txt which will give you 30000 weapon components (with the 5000 quantum components stripped out)

[ironman]

I've givin it a try and with all tech it takes a few sec's to get the Ship Design to come up but, I think it's still TOO big

And still no weapons for the Weapon Platform's

For the most part I like it

but like all mods (needs a good working AI)

[Suicide Junkie]

Planets are intentionally given no surface-to-space weaponry.
The other side of this is that bombardment is very supply and time intensive.

Ground combat is where its at. The best way to damage a planet's hitpoints is to let your tanks bLast away, since they come in large numbers and don't need to resupply. Plus as a bonus you get to capture the planet when you win http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

PS:
About the huge components, yes I'm aware that it is insanely large.
I'm going to cut it back to perhaps 5x5x5, so its 1/8th the size. Should help keep the game out of the swap file on most PCs.

[Alneyan]

I didn't see your update about the grid until now. If you have patient players, it should be fine; after all, what is to prevent us from doing something else, like opening a second SEIV game, while your mod loads? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

With a few programs running (Firefox and Thunderbird), it took me five minutes to load SEIV, and nearly thirty seconds to open the Design window. My computer has an Athlon XP 1500+ and 3X256 in memory (not sure what sort of memory).

[Suicide Junkie]

Alneyan said:
I didn't see your update about the grid until now. If you have patient players, it should be fine; after all, what is to prevent us from doing something else, like opening a second SEIV game, while your mod loads? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

With a few programs running (Firefox and Thunderbird), it took me five minutes to load SEIV, and nearly thirty seconds to open the Design window. My computer has an Athlon XP 1500+ and 3X256 in memory (not sure what sort of memory).

Well, I did have to delete 5000 components in order to get it to load. 32k is the most SE4 handles, and at 10x10x10 I had 35500 or so.
SE4 also gobbles up 500 megs of ram loading to its limit. Even your machine would probably end up swapping to disk if you multitasked much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I'm going to have to update my tech gridder to run batch operations, and once that is done, it will be easy to make a 5x5x5 Version AND a 9x9x9 Version for the supercomputer folks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Timstone]

Would you like to make a thread to explain the precise working (well, how you operate the program)?
I played around with an older Version and I didn't have a clue.

[Suicide Junkie]

I'm sure there is one in this thread already, but I've gotta get going to a christmas party.

If you don't find it by the time I get back, I'll look myself, and for sure, include a copy of it into the download.

[Timstone]

I meant: I hope you post an extensive how-to-use in that thread, or include a nice text file with the program.

Have fun at the party!

[Ragnarok-X]

Party ?

[Timstone]

Yeah, SJ said he had to leave because he went to a christmas party. Read his Last post.

[Suicide Junkie]

Timstone said:
I meant: I hope you post an extensive how-to-use in that thread, or include a nice text file with the program.

Oops I meant that thread, not this thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Got home 2am, but here is a thread on your question:

"How Does the Tech Gridder Work?"
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB23&amp;Number=188203&amp;Forum= f23

[Atrocities]

Getting home at 2am and then posting can cause errors in Posts. I know.

[Timstone]

Thanks SJ!

Edit:
I hope you don't have too much blood in your alcohol.