Why game is so easy? [Archive]

Master Belisarius

December 30th, 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
www.malfador.com (http://www.malfador.com) has a listing of all mods on its SE4 web site. Look there.

There is an all AI vs. humans mode when you are creating a game. This will make all AI empires allied, and at war with you. Today this is not a good option if the AIs has Bloodthirsty as happiness... The AI keep sending Partnerships proposals during all the game (even after have this treaty), and then, more sooner than later they start to have many many riots, just because they're so friendly!

[ December 29, 2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

narf poit chez BOOM

December 30th, 2003, 12:22 AM

mod's are user-created additions to games, and, aside from a few like counter-strike for half-life, their all free. to use it, you just download it, unzip it in your space empires directory(it should come nicely packaged in it's own directory) then you open up path.txt in your SE dir and change 'none' to whatever the name of the TDM directory is.

if that's to confusing, ask someone with more experience in being helpfull, rather than funny. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Vasiliy

December 30th, 2003, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
mod's are user-created additions to games, and, aside from a few like counter-strike for half-life, their all free. to use it, you just download it, unzip it in your space empires directory(it should come nicely packaged in it's own directory) then you open up path.txt in your SE dir and change 'none' to whatever the name of the TDM directory is.

if that's to confusing, ask someone with more experience in being helpfull, rather than funny. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks

Master Belisarius

December 30th, 2003, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Vasiliy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
nope, TDM is a mod, not a mode. you can probably get a copy off PBW. Sorry, I am new in SPIV.
Is the TDM like a patch? Is it free?

Thanks <hr /></blockquote>The the link to the TDM files: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1066028417.zip

For best results, play with High AI, High AI Bonuses, SMALL galaxy, 3 starting planets, 4 TDM AIs (think United Flora, Earth Alliance, EEE, Narn, Aquilaeian, Rage, are some of the best).
With this kind of settings, even an experienced player could lose (me for example http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif ).
And not forget to test the Tessellate (some of propaganda to my AIs would not hurt, right?): http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1055630817.zip

se5a

December 30th, 2003, 12:36 AM

ahhh counter strike for halflife is free...
you can also buy it as a standalone also though.

Master Belisarius

December 30th, 2003, 12:36 AM

And forget to tell you... if really want hard opponents, try playing multiplayer!

narf poit chez BOOM

December 30th, 2003, 12:37 AM

ahhh counter strike for halflife is free...
you can also buy it as a standalone also though.
i though they made a commercial Version?

Will

December 30th, 2003, 01:02 AM

Counter-Strike, IIRC, you can buy boxed with or without HalfLife. The main reasons to get it boxed are the documentation and convenience (having it on a CD, without needing to download). But you can get it Online, legal and free.

Ways to make the game harder against AIs:
Small galaxy
NO Neutral Empires
Turn off surrender
Use AI-friendly maps (low storm, black hole, asteroid system percentages; in other words, don't use Ancient quadrant)
TDM AIs
P&N mod as either a Pirate or Nomad
Self-imposed restrictions (eg. capture all planets, no planetary bombardment; don't use intelligence; don't use any racial points)

Ways to make the game harder:
Play humans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

oleg

December 30th, 2003, 01:04 AM

AIC is another good mod to have a challenging AIs. It changes the game fabric substantially though, so be warned http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Grandpa Kim

December 30th, 2003, 04:29 AM

Vasiliy, welcome!

Also there is a patch available. The latest is v. 1.84. Be sure to download that too.

dHay

December 30th, 2003, 08:08 PM

Also, make sure you don't have neutral computer empires in the game. They definitely screw up the other computer players because they block expansion.

[ December 30, 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: dHay ]

nesrall

December 30th, 2003, 09:18 PM

A "Q" about mods from a new SEIV Gold purchaser...I'm familiar with playing the 1.49 Version on PBW, but I never was in a modded game. Now being the proud owner of 1.84 Gold I notice most games to join are modded...My "Q" is do I have to have the mod installed on my Version to play in that particular game properly...or is the mod only needed for the game owner?

geoschmo

December 30th, 2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by nesrall:
A "Q" about mods from a new SEIV Gold purchaser...I'm familiar with playing the 1.49 Version on PBW, but I never was in a modded game. Now being the proud owner of 1.84 Gold I notice most games to join are modded...My "Q" is do I have to have the mod installed on my Version to play in that particular game properly...or is the mod only needed for the game owner? Almost all mods require the players to have the mod on their pc and be using them to be able to play your turn. There are a few exceptions, but very few. The FQM NON-dexule Version is one. The Deluxe FQM however does require you to have the mod. You used to be able to play a TDM game on PBW without the mod, but I am not sure about that anymore. Seems like the recent Versions you had to. But my memory isn't clear on that.

Geoschmo

Fyron

December 30th, 2003, 09:33 PM

TDM has a modified Formations file, which it has had for years. You must use the TDM data files when playing a TDM PBW game, or you will get data errors.

nesrall

December 30th, 2003, 09:43 PM

Thank You

gregebowman

December 30th, 2003, 10:47 PM

If you're looking for a harder game, try Proportinos. I forget all of the circumstances now, but my first game I was getting my butt kicked by the third or fourth turn. I encountered an alien race, and they immediately turned hostile and was sending out fleets of ships while I was still trying to explore just the next system. I quit that game, but it was a learning experience.

capnq

December 30th, 2003, 11:12 PM

try Proportinos I didn't know Proportions had a Spanish localization. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gryphin

December 30th, 2003, 11:17 PM

There are a few ways to make the game harder and that is not not take advantage of the AI.
Don't
Trade with it
Create Treatys higher than Trade and Reasearch
There are a few others but I have not played in a long time.

Do Play in Simultaneous mode. That is much harder.

Cipher7071

December 31st, 2003, 04:27 PM

The first game I played with the TDM modpack, I lost to a tactic that I don't remember ever seeing in the original game. Then I said, "Now wait a minute here," and I never fell for that ploy again. I think that versatility is the key to winning in any game setting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

gregebowman

December 31st, 2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by capnq:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> try Proportinos I didn't know Proportions had a Spanish localization. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>What's even funnier is that I don't know Spanish. hehehe

Master Belisarius

December 31st, 2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by gregebowman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by capnq:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> try Proportinos I didn't know Proportions had a Spanish localization. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>What's even funnier is that I don't know Spanish. hehehe <hr /></blockquote>hehehe, don't worry, because the word in spanish for Proportions is: "Proporciones". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

AMF

December 31st, 2003, 05:46 PM

Hmmm..maybe he was doing Portuguese?

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gregebowman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by capnq:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> try Proportinos I didn't know Proportions had a Spanish localization. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>What's even funnier is that I don't know Spanish. hehehe <hr /></blockquote>hehehe, don't worry, because the word in spanish for Proportions is: "Proporciones". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif <hr /></blockquote>

capnq

December 31st, 2003, 08:44 PM

I don't speak Spanish either; I just thought the typo looked like a Spanish word.

Ragnarok

December 31st, 2003, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by capnq:
I don't speak Spanish either; I just thought the typo looked like a Spanish word. Take any english word and put an O or an A on it and you are speaking spanish. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Well, not exactly. But sometimes that's all the difference there is.

Disclaimer: This post was not meant to offend any spanish speaking people. I have high respect for the spanish community and their language. In fact, they work harder then us americans do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Puke

December 31st, 2003, 10:55 PM

Hmmm. Most people work harder than us. Most of us are rather fat and lazy slobs, whom watch too much television and play too many videogames. Of course, we dont have the dole as a sociological institution to support a non-working lower class, so there is a flip side to that.

But back to why the game is easy, there used to be a bunch of people in the early days of SE4, whom would hang out here and complain that the game was easy. Yep, it is. It can even be easy with the hardest settings, the toughest mods, and horrible cheating creatures like the Space Monsters. It just depends on how good you are. The only real answer is to play against humans.

Atrocities

January 1st, 2004, 02:24 AM

narf poit chez BOOM

January 1st, 2004, 04:07 AM

LOL. Honesty is not always the best policy when it comes to the truth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
on the contrary. the truth, if ignored, gets really angry and finds a two-by-four... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Narratio

January 1st, 2004, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
The only real answer is to play against humans. And that's the truth. The AI's are fun, and you can spend weeks creating the ultimate in game winning strategies against all levels of difficulty against all Versions of the AI.

Then you enter into a game against humans. They sneer at your strategy, laugh at your ship building skills and giggle at your research priorities. Then, around turn 30, they hand you your head and turn your capitol into a mini-mart.

NOW you're playing a game!

Alneyan

January 1st, 2004, 05:21 PM

And even against human players the game can be quite easy, or so I reckon. Asmala and Rex? Is the game really too easy for you when you play humans? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gryphin

January 2nd, 2004, 01:15 PM

Orriginaly Posted by narf
on the contrary. the truth, if ignored, gets really angry and finds a two-by-four... I'm going to add this to my email sig.

Vasiliy

January 2nd, 2004, 11:20 PM

I have tried TDM mode - the same things. AI send sips on my planet (with 10 Weapon Station) one by one (or 2-3 by 2-3). It is very silly. How I can change it (to force AI to create a big fleet)?

THanks

narf poit chez BOOM

January 2nd, 2004, 11:23 PM

I'm going to add this to my email sig.
it was partly inspired by a sig i saw somewhere else. 'history doesn't repeat itself, it just let's fly with a hammer and screams 'didn't you hear me the first time!?'.

primitive

January 3rd, 2004, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by Vasiliy:
I have tried TDM mode - the same things. AI send sips on my planet (with 10 Weapon Station) one by one (or 2-3 by 2-3). It is very silly. How I can change it (to force AI to create a big fleet)?

THanks Excactly which AI is that (and what setup are you using) ?

There is a vast difference in the quality of the AI's. Some are very stupid, others just a bit daft http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Make sure you pick some decent ones (using latest Versions and patches) and give them a bonus. If it's still easy for you with High bonus, then you are ready for the big league (KOTH on PBW)

Master Belisarius

January 3rd, 2004, 01:09 AM

oleg

January 3rd, 2004, 05:05 AM

Originally posted by Vasiliy:
I have tried TDM mode - the same things. AI send sips on my planet (with 10 Weapon Station) one by one (or 2-3 by 2-3). It is very silly. How I can change it (to force AI to create a big fleet)?

THanks It does happen sometimes even with best AIs - when AI homeworld is very close and it has no bonuses. AI in the "attack" state does not wait for the correct number of "turns before next attack" and send understrength fleets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif But it seldom occurs with TDM AIs on high bonuses.

Vasiliy

January 3rd, 2004, 05:55 AM

I use High Bonus and High Difficult for AI, but I did not select AI. How I can do it? I thought that I can select only human player race.

I use Turn Based Movement.

oleg

January 3rd, 2004, 06:30 AM

You can always add few more empires (if .emp file is provided, of course), not only yours. Then edit those empires and turn them onto AI control.

Still, it is quite odd that TDM AI with high bonus does not master big fleets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Start a new game then. It may be some silly loop in AI procedure exposed by particular game setup.

Did you try AIC mod yet ?

Atrocities

January 3rd, 2004, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Vasiliy:
I use High Bonus and High Difficult for AI, but I did not select AI. How I can do it? I thought that I can select only human player race.

I use Turn Based Movement. Ok if I understand your question, all you need to do is click on the Option Icon, upper left hand corner, and select players. Then just click the check circle next to the races you want the AI to control. A green dot will appear signifying that they are now under AI control.

Fyron

January 3rd, 2004, 10:05 AM

You can add more than one empire in game setup. For the empires that you want to be AI controlled, simply edit them and turn on the Controlled by AI option. You can do it before starting the game. Most races come with empire files.

Master Belisarius

January 3rd, 2004, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Vasiliy:
I use High Bonus and High Difficult for AI, but I did not select AI. How I can do it? I thought that I can select only human player race.

I use Turn Based Movement. I suggest you to use Simultaneous Movement: is more challenging (after all, the AI always plays like a simultaneous movement game!) and you will have some training for multiplayer games.

Some months ago, I runned 2 AI contests. Although these contests were not perfect, at least you can see how the AIs performed... and think would help you to make your AI choices.

AI Deatmatch 1.
===============
With no AI bonus.

1 Narn
2 Pyrochette
3 EEE - United Flora
5 Earth Alliance - Aquilaeian
7 Klingon - Namovans - Space Vikings - Toron
11 Romulan - Jraenar
13 Shadows - Angelican Regency - Rage - Praetorian - UkraTal - Azorani
19 SWEmpire - EEEVil - XiChung - Vaxin - Orks - Drakol

AI Deatmatch 2.
===============
With Low AI bonus.

ROUND PLACE NAME POINTS
Final 1 United Flora 32
Final 2 Tessellate 27
SemiFinal 3 Space Vikings 23
SemiFinal 4 Aquilaeian 15
Round 6 5 CueCappa 16
Round 6 6 Narn Regime 15
Round 5 7 Pyrochette 15
Round 5 8 Toron 13
Round 4 9 Fazrah 9
Round 4 10 EEE 7
Round 4 11 Khrel 7
Round 4 12 Orks 5
Round 3 13 Gron 6
Round 3 14 Rage 4
Round 3 15 Namovans 3
Round 3 15 Earth Alliance 3
Round 3 17 Sallega 2
Round 3 17 Piundon 2
Round 2 19 Klingon 2
Round 2 20 Teslik 1
Round 2 20 Drakol 1
Round 2 20 Azorani 1
Round 2 20 Praetorians 1
Round 2 20 Colonial 1
Round 1 25 Cylon 0
Round 1 25 Corrian 0
Round 1 25 Romulan 0
Round 1 25 Toltayan 0
Round 1 25 Ekhazan 0
Round 1 25 Shadows 0
Round 1 25 Sergetti 0
Round 1 25 XiChung 0

JLS

January 21st, 2004, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
You can always add few more empires (if .emp file is provided, of course), not only yours. Then edit those empires and turn them onto AI control.

Still, it is quite odd that TDM AI with high bonus does not master big fleets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Start a new game then. It may be some silly loop in AI procedure exposed by particular game setup.

Did you try AIC mod yet ? You may find the AI in AIC to have larger fleets then se4. You will also find that many of the AI fighters, units and Ships will be well equipped to deal with your planet defenses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Be warned, you will need troops to defend your planets from this AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It is recommended your first game to have NO ai bonus; you may find this to be a challenge�

AI bonus at low or higher; (this AI) will certainly rock your boat.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 21, 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

January 21st, 2004, 06:27 PM

Have you considered making an AIC without the slowness of Proportions?

JLS

January 21st, 2004, 06:41 PM

That is a good question Fyron�

Some Players like Star Liners and true, this tends to slow the game by its mundane micromanagement.

= = =

AIC has 2 starting option settings for your characters trait game style.

(1) OS* This will yield a more robust game without the need for Star Liners.

(2) Players also have the MP* Settings that is for multi-Player games or Solo games and this will yield the many more options and facilities that will increase the players Resources, Empire Storage, Ship Repair, Research speed, Construction speed and increased ship total counts. With increased Research and many other additions the game will move at a more robust pace.

By choosing the OS* and/or MP* as your players starting game triat style; will increase the pace of the game dramatically.

[ January 21, 2004, 16:58: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

January 21st, 2004, 06:50 PM

I am not talking about starliners, but the entire slowdown of Proportions. The extreme importance of the HW and long, long time it takes to get colonies to be productive and such.

JLS

January 21st, 2004, 07:04 PM

I won't speak for Proportions other then to say it is the finest mod I have ever played.

====
With respect to AIC:

With OS* option the Population will grow 10 fold and reach 100% Production much faster then with the need for star liners building up population masses.

With MP* The research and other options gives the Facilities and additional Population Options that also will speed colony development http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But AIC may not be for you, Fyron, and this is ok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Although Urban Centers are additional tools for AIC players to have, the game is not dependent on them (AT ALL)- - -
{{{unless you are playing AIC in Finite and the need for them is now great.}}}

In regards to the Home World, well all se4 is dependent early on for there Home Worlds survivability and that Population base it has to offer.

Many may say, that AIC Home Worlds yeild many more Options and Abilities then se4.

[ January 21, 2004, 17:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

January 21st, 2004, 08:12 PM

Many may say, that AIC Home Worlds yeild many more Options and Abilities then se4. Others would say that the restricted nature of colonies removes more options than that allows. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But yeah, AIC is too slow paced for me. This is why I suggested a Version not so dependant on the Proportions roots. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

January 21st, 2004, 08:17 PM

OK, thanks Fyron, I will do more with options OS*, MP* and another...
Thanks for the input http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

[ January 21, 2004, 18:18: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

January 21st, 2004, 11:10 PM

AIC is already far faster then Proportions. Cities are roughly 1/2 of cultural centers and can be build VERY FAST with extra option O1. Too fast for my taste BTW. With this option, ~100 turns with no big wars and one should be able to double or even triple the HW production output.

Fyron

January 22nd, 2004, 12:23 AM

100 turns? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Still extremely slow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Puke

January 22nd, 2004, 02:12 AM

Look how fast New York was built, even with nothing but Industrial Age technology! And Singapore. And Hong Kong. I think that 50 years is more than enough time to.. Oh, 500 turns? yeah, thats a bit boring. Maybe sacrifice a bit of realism in favor of playability.

Grand Lord Vito

January 22nd, 2004, 06:45 PM

Not only is the AI very tough and a real challenge in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

What I also like about AIC is that you have the option to get the population mass up with starliners at a nice slow easy paced game.

OR

AND what I really like about AIC is that you have the options to get the masses up with out Starliners for a more rapid pace game.

AIC has more Colony options then se4 and it only takes 1 year and 7 months (17 turns)to upgrade a city from a Settlement with about a population of only 30 and way less time at a higher population http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also with that 30 population it only takes 5 months (5turns)to build a Colonial Settlement and to upgrade that to a town about another 8months (8turns) or like I said 1.7 Years (17turns) at 30 pop and 2.4years at only 11 pop {{{this is how it is in AIC}}}.

In se4 after you build a few Mining Facilities on a 102% non-breathable planet what option do you have then for Colony development?
With AIC you can build Cities not only on that good of a planet (+100%) but even on a planet with 50% resources and still make a whooping profit.

So for example on a Planet I start by building the approprate or needed facilities and then with the Last slot build ONE Colonial Settlement and upgrade it to a City and then do another and another as you can see with AIC the Colonies do have the same options as se4 and with much, much more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I am not sure where 100 or 500turns comes from to build a simple city in AIC

But I can asure you it is much - much less then 50 turns, unless of coarse you have only 1 pop http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
and then again only with ONE (1) Population in about 10 turns with no Starliners or even any Pop Transports adding pop to that Colony you can build that city in about 2.3 Years from a small Colonial Settlement of 11 pop= THATS ONLY 23 turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The more Pop the more laborers the faster and more productive the project http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 17:28: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Fyron

January 22nd, 2004, 07:34 PM

Puke's response was one of sarcasm... You have to factor in the fact that starting SE4 technology is a hell of a lot faster than industrial age technology, so building cities would not take as long as building New York did, but far less time.

Oleg was not talking about 100 turns for a city, but 100 turns to double or triple the production of the homeworld... this is the slowness I was refering to. 17 turns to begin producing resources on a colony is still extremely slow. And, you can indeed make a whopping profit with mineral miners on a 50% value planet in stock. Not as huge as on a 100% value planet, but still big.

[ January 22, 2004, 17:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Grand Lord Vito

January 22nd, 2004, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
AIC is already far faster then Proportions. Cities are roughly 1/2 of cultural centers and can be build VERY FAST with extra option O1. Too fast for my taste BTW. With this option, ~100 turns with no big wars and one should be able to double or even triple the HW production output. I see your point Oleg if you are just talking about Urban Centers - but with Apples to Apples.

The AIC Home World starts with about 12kt of minerals along with about every ability the se4 game has to offer.

It does not take nearly 100 years to get a Colony up to 12k with Minning Facilities, and it only takes 2 or 3 trade agreements to match most of the home world starting numbers, it only takes less then a few dozen SAT robo-miners to match that (about 4 trips with the AIC cargo launcher) it only takes several Minning vessels to match 12kt, it only takes severel bases to match 12kt.

One more thing, you did start your AIC game with a good amount of Resources, Research, Intel and tons of other special abilities with that AIC home world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 18:23: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Grand Lord Vito

January 22nd, 2004, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
And, you can indeed make a whopping profit with mineral miners on a 50% value planet in stock. Not as huge as on a 100% value planet, but still big. Yes, same with AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But can you build a se4 default Minning Facility when you are done robo-mining?

With AIC you CAN and it will be a whopping profit with resources, Intel, Research and Storage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

And I like that Colony developement addition with AIC Colonial Settments, Comunities, Towns,Cities, b]Racial Cities[/b], Metros, Megas, Huge Population Centers, Racial Culture Centers and New World Colonial Populaation Centers
All this along with the all the basic se4 Minning and other resource gathering facilities - all this along with dozens of other other neat speacle facilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 18:20: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Grand Lord Vito

January 22nd, 2004, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Puke's response was one of sarcasm... You have to factor in the fact that starting SE4 technology is a hell of a lot faster than industrial age technology, so building cities would not take as long as building New York did, but far less time.

I was not sure what PUKE ment by

"Oh, 500 turns? yeah, thats a bit boring. Maybe sacrifice a bit of realism in favor of playability."

Thats why I posted

GLV:
I am not sure where 100 or 500turns comes from to build a simple city in AIC

But I can asure you it is much - much less then 50 turns, unless of coarse you have only 1 pop
and then again only with ONE (1) Population in about 10 turns with no Starliners or even any Pop Transports adding pop to that Colony you can build that city in about 2.3 Years from a small Colonial Settlement of 11 pop= THATS ONLY 23 turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The more Pop the more laborers the faster and more productive the project http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif



[ January 22, 2004, 18:09: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Fyron

January 22nd, 2004, 09:28 PM

I know what you posted... again, Puke was being sarcastic.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
And, you can indeed make a whopping profit with mineral miners on a 50% value planet in stock. Not as huge as on a 100% value planet, but still big. Yes, same with AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But can you build a se4 default Minning Facility when you are done robo-mining?

With AIC you CAN and it will be a whopping profit with resources, Intel, Research and Storage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

And I like that Colony developement addition with AIC Colonial Settments, Comunities, Towns,Cities, b]Racial Cities, Metros, Megas, Huge Population Centers, Racial Culture Centers and New World Colonial Populaation Centers
All this along with the all the basic se4 Minning and other resource gathering facilities - all this along with dozens of other other neat speacle facilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [/b]<hr /></blockquote>You have completely missed the point GLV... NOONE ever said anything about more or less options for colonizing planets, but about the length of time it takes to make colonies useful...

[ January 22, 2004, 19:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

QBrigid

January 24th, 2004, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
GLV:
I am not sure where 100 or 500turns comes from to build a simple city in AIC

But I can asure you it is much - much less then 50 turns, unless of coarse you have only 1 pop
and then again only with ONE (1) Population in about 10 turns with no Starliners or even any Pop Transports adding pop to that Colony you can build that city in about 2.3 Years from a small Colonial Settlement of 11 pop= THATS ONLY 23 turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The more Pop the more laborers the faster and more productive the project http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
And, you can indeed make a whopping profit with mineral miners on a 50% value planet in stock. Not as huge as on a 100% value planet, but still big. [/qb]
Yes, same with AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But can you build a se4 default Minning Facility when you are done robo-mining?

With AIC you CAN and it will be a whopping profit with resources, Intel, Research and Storage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

And I like that Colony developement addition with AIC Colonial Settments, Comunities, Towns,Cities, b]Racial Cities, Metros, Megas, Huge Population Centers, Racial Culture Centers and New World Colonial Populaation Centers
All this along with the all the basic se4 Minning and other resource gathering facilities - all this along with dozens of other other neat speacle facilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [/b]

This is great about AIC and Proportion colonies, you never run out of things to do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It does not take that long to build se4 basic resource extraction facilities in AIC, and 2.3 years for the AIC city sounds resonable to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I agree with Oleg I also like Star Liners but many others like the OS* trait option because the game does go at a much faster pace and you have but don't need Star Liners. But I really LOVE the AIC MP* options for MULTIPLAYER not only do you have more ships, bases faster research but you also have AIC Multiplayer HANDICAPPING http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 24, 2004, 14:59: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

JLS

January 24th, 2004, 07:05 PM

Thanks Fyron, there is always more that can be done, and more will be done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Agreed Puke, it should take less then 50 years to build a City

Agreed GLV �Cities are not that time consuming to build/upgrade playing AIC; at less then 4years (FOUR) with AIC Cities� and when you want to further a small or even a mined out planet, Urban Development does come in very handy along with other options. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
Founding Fathers rarely build their Cities over the best crop land.

Agreed Fyron, "17 turns to begin producing resources on a colony is still extremely slow." However with AIC, it has always been; with only 9pop it only takes 3 turns (THREE) or less to build a resource extraction facilty and only 2 turns (TWO) or less for a research facility http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Additionally you are also Correct QB, if you build basic se4 resource extraction facilities in AIC (above) it does not take that long to max out a Colony; especially with the new OS* starting trait options.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 24, 2004, 19:47: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

January 24th, 2004, 09:58 PM

However with AIC, it has always been; with only 9pop it only takes 3 turns (THREE) or less to build a resource extraction facilty and only 2 turns (TWO) or less for a research facility Which is still extremely slow (including the necessity of getting 9 M pop on all planets in the first place...) for what they produce...

JLS

January 24th, 2004, 10:23 PM

However Fyron, the time it takes to re-supply a Colony with Population relatively is the same time as with se4 when you have Pop transports on the way or with the Colony Ship (1 Turn) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 24, 2004, 20:30: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

January 24th, 2004, 10:25 PM

Which REQUIRES population transports going to all planets to get them up and running, which slows things down tremendously....

JLS

January 24th, 2004, 10:31 PM

But even without fresh pop as soon they land it is about 5turns (FIVE) for a resource Facility and 4turns (FOUR) for a research. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Depending on your race, etc

[ January 24, 2004, 20:31: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

January 24th, 2004, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Which REQUIRES population transports going to all planets to get them up and running, which slows things down tremendously.... Exactly, this is why the AIC OS* FREE starting trait (OPTION) is so neat for those who do not like Star liners or micromanage se4 Pop Transports, it increases the game pace.

[ January 24, 2004, 20:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

January 24th, 2004, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
But even without fresh pop as soon they land it is about 5turns (FIVE) for a resource Facility and 4turns (FOUR) for a research. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Depending on your race, etc Which is still very slow, given the low amount of resources they produce!

[ January 24, 2004, 20:47: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

January 24th, 2004, 10:47 PM

OK. Now you move to this statement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron, AIC has always been designed with the intent to have less ships in play then se4.
This may make for a more manageable LAN and Multiplayer game� Some players may not like to manage tons and tons of ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

January 24th, 2004, 10:51 PM

I think we are getting really far from the original point of the suggestion, to make a Version of AIC that is more akin to the stock game than to Proportions... none of the human player options come close. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

January 24th, 2004, 10:56 PM

Agreed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually I do plan on this, as it states in the AIC Readme.

But I may hold off until se5 for its base http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 24, 2004, 20:58: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

January 25th, 2004, 05:20 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Which REQUIRES population transports going to all planets to get them up and running, which slows things down tremendously.... Not true. Use option OP1 and you will able to fill colonies with research centers or mineral miners VERY fast without shipping any population at all.

Fyron

January 25th, 2004, 05:59 AM

We already went over that Oleg... even with that option, it still takes a long time to get productive colonies. 3 turns for piddly resource production per facility is not what I would call very fast.

Fyron

January 25th, 2004, 07:03 PM

There are plenty of people that like playing with 1000s of ships. They are certainly manageable, that is what fleets are for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Captain Kwok

January 25th, 2004, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
There are plenty of people that like playing with 1000s of ships. They are certainly manageable, that is what fleets are for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I don't know about you, but that's when I start running out of individual names for my ships.

Fyron

January 25th, 2004, 10:10 PM

Well a few files of 1000 randomly generated names help a lot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And of course, so does stopping naming them all when you get that many.

I probably should have said "that is what fleets and auto-destination way points from build queues are for." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 25, 2004, 20:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Captain Kwok

January 25th, 2004, 10:15 PM

There really should be a drop box for ship names that connects to your design names file minus the names that are used...that would make my life easier!

Fyron

January 25th, 2004, 10:16 PM

Indeed it would! But it would make savegames a lot bigger to store the names you already used, or would have a noticeable delay every time you open the drop box, as it would have to search every single entry... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

oleg

January 26th, 2004, 01:57 AM

I experimented a little and think it is possible to get AIC games almost the same momentum as an unmoded game (first 30-40 turns will be slow still). Basically, your race setup should have O1 and MP options. Pour racial points into Propulsion Experts and max out research and construction. Research Fast Colonizers and contr-terran engines ASAP. That will give colony ships speed 5 - almost like normal game. O1 option will remove the need for population transports. MP will give you Research centers and Miners with 50% extra output - to compensate for slower building rate. Finally, construction bonuses/penalties add up, not multiply. That means if you have -75% from low population and +25% from the race ability, fresh colony will have only -50% construction. Ten turns later with O1 and it will build basic buildings in 2 turns ! Of course, if you run into xenophobic AI, all plans off.

Fyron

January 26th, 2004, 02:58 AM

First 30-40 turns being overly slow is generally very detrimental to PBW games... and forcing everyone to have vastly similar empires just to play is not a good plan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ January 26, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

January 26th, 2004, 02:59 AM

Fyron, the production scale for AIC is not to have tons and tons of ships in play, it designed with the intent to have a manageable amount of Ships for LAN, Multiplayer and for those that only want 36 or less to 600+ of War Ships per player possible for that AIC game. (Depending on AIC/Stock map and size the players want)

With the new introduction for the AIC Players OPTIONS to have FQM maps with many more asteroids in play; allows the OPTION for the above ship numbers to double even triple or more for both the AI and the Human Players. (Depending on FQM map and size the players want)

The scale of AIC may not be for you Fyron. However there are many players that like this manageable pace and scale. Not to say AIC will not be packed with even more future options and enhancements with its AIC MP* starting options.

With AIC Finite economics and the ability for the AIC AI to build and afford 20000 plus ships or bases with ease; when I port AIC to se4 and/or se5 base and raising Human Player and AI Players production levels will have the scale of ships in the TENS of thousands that you refer to. I am unsure who would want to play such a monster, but I will start HUGH with rapid fire growth and then scale it back if needed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In the mean time; I do enjoy playing your Adamant, TDM, P&N, DevNull and most especially Atrocities Star Trek MOD (great job Will) for all there beauty, detail, scope, internal operations and its grandeur . I have learned so much from you Fyron and all the Sys-opps on this Forum.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 25, 2004, 14:32: Message edited by: JLS ]

tesco samoa

January 26th, 2004, 03:23 AM

fyron.... kwok names each ship differently.

you will never see adjate 0075 on his ships...

Captain Kwok

January 26th, 2004, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
fyron.... kwok names each ship differently.

you will never see adjate 0075 on his ships... Sometimes I'll name support ships (repair, supply, resource, transports) with numbers, for example UJFS Replak 01, or UJFS Suplik 01. But all military ships get names for sure!

Sometimes I think it takes longer naming the ships than giving orders in some PBW games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fyron

January 26th, 2004, 03:42 AM

Grand Lord Vito

January 26th, 2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Vasiliy:
Hi

I set Computer Player Difficulty/Bonus in High. But it is very easy to defeat all computer players anyway.

How I can create more hard game?

Thanks

Vasiliy Try the AI Campaign MOD.
The AIC AI is awesome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Be warned (Play the AIC at NO or just a LOW AI bonus at first.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In AIC I can beat the AI in a medium setting, but it is very rare.
If you set the Computer to Medium or Hi in AIC it will be more of a chalange then you want. This setting is used in AIC Multiplayer games.

[ January 26, 2004, 13:16: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Grand Lord Vito

January 26th, 2004, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
I have learned so much from you Fyron and all the Sys-opps on this Forum.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Gag me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif you are too much of a politician JLS.

Just � Stir it up (little da# da#) Stir it up, ya http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ January 26, 2004, 13:22: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Grand Lord Vito

January 27th, 2004, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
I experimented a little and think it is possible to get AIC games almost the same momentum as an unmoded game (first 30-40 turns will be slow still). Basically, your race setup should have O1 and MP options. Pour racial points into Propulsion Experts and max out research and construction. Research Fast Colonizers and contr-terran engines ASAP. That will give colony ships speed 5 - almost like normal game. O1 option will remove the need for population transports. MP will give you Research centers and Miners with 50% extra output - to compensate for slower building rate. Finally, construction bonuses/penalties add up, not multiply. That means if you have -75% from low population and +25% from the race ability, fresh colony will have only -50% construction. Ten turns later with O1 and it will build basic buildings in 2 turns ! Of course, if you run into xenophobic AI, all plans off. Ten turns later with O1 and it will build basic buildings in 2 turns !
I like your idea Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

And regarding AIC zeno races, if you run into a Human Player that does not want you to pass the same is also true, good thing there are only 2 xenos players in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 26, 2004, 12:59: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

QBrigid

January 27th, 2004, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Vasiliy:
I have tried TDM mode - the same things. AI send sips on my planet (with 10 Weapon Station) one by one (or 2-3 by 2-3). It is very silly. How I can change it (to force AI to create a big fleet)?

THanks Fyron says TDM is in error and needs fixing still.
But thats just Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

There are a lot of new mods on the Forum or they can be found at the se4.com web site. You should find no conflict of interests at the se4 main site.

[ January 27, 2004, 11:13: Message edited by: QBrigid ]