OT: Galactic sterilisation [Archive]

JurijD

January 6th, 2004, 01:17 PM

I just watched a very interesting documentary on black holes that proposed a fascinating theory as to why we haven't been visited by alien life forms yet.

If we take into account the scales of the galaxy and the number of planets there ought to be at least some alien civilisations. And these would most likely be millions if not billions of years ahead of us in terms of technological development. And on that time scale they should have been able to develop some sort of faster than light travel. (and even if they didn't...just by jumping from one star to the next slower then light one could colonize the entire galaxy in a few million years). So why haven't we seen any evidence of aliens comming to visit?

Well recent calculations on the development of black holes have revealed that just before their formation as the star starts to collapse into themselves a HUGE SCHOCKWAVE or Gamma radiation is shot out into space. And the intestity of this radiation is such that it equals 10^9*10ˇ9*10^9 = 10^27 the ammount released in the most powerful hydrogen bomb we have.

So these guys went on to calculate that if such a black hole were to appear up to several hundred light years away from our solar system it would practicaly STERILISE all advanced life on our planet. (perhaps those bacteria deep inside the earth mantle would survive). quote: "It would be the equivalent of Hiroshima type bombs going off all over the planet."

As they can track these Gamma ray "explosions" via a sattelite in orbit (only with a delay of the time it takes for the light to come to us) they began to calculate the probability of something like this happening in our "backyard".
And the recent results (not very accurate yet) say that is possible that these events are frequent enough to sterilise entire regions of the galaxy in short enough time scales to really make it improbable for advanced lifeforms to develop often. ... so I guess we're pretty lucky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 06, 2004, 11:20: Message edited by: JurijD ]

Unknown_Enemy

January 6th, 2004, 01:29 PM

Seems a bit flawed to me. There are enought backyards in our galaxy to have a few aliens somewhere.

But we haven't seen any martians yet...
May be they are waiting that our specie don't produce anymore the Saddam/Hitler type anymore to consider us as sentient ?

JurijD

January 6th, 2004, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
May be they are waiting that our specie don't produce anymore the Saddam/Hitler type anymore to consider us as sentient ? Your surely mean Bush/Blair right?

oleg

January 6th, 2004, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by JurijD:
... Well recent calculations on the development of black holes have revealed that just before their formation as the star starts to collapse into themselves a HUGE SCHOCKWAVE or Gamma radiation is shot out into space. And the intestity of this radiation is such that it equals 10^9*10ˇ9*10^9 = 10^27 the ammount released in the most powerful hydrogen bomb we have.

So these guys went on to calculate that if such a black hole were to appear up to several hundred light years away from our solar system it would practicaly STERILISE all advanced life on our planet. (perhaps those bacteria deep inside the earth mantle would survive). quote: "It would be the equivalent of Hiroshima type bombs going off all over the planet."

Even if these calculationa are correct, you underestimate the effect of 100 LY. Simple calculation reveals 10^30 attenuation factor. At worst it will be like radiation 1000 km away from the bomb. Extensive hydrogen bomb tests in 50s and 60s proved that there is nothing to fear http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Besides, the time duration odf star collapes is surely much longer than H-bomb explosion and the _intensity_ of the radiation will be very small indeed.

Baron Munchausen

January 6th, 2004, 06:46 PM

Maybe these events are not enough to sterlize every habitable planet but it sounds like they'd do a good job of screwing up attempts to make interstellar journeys and colonize new worlds. This might be a good explanation for why there aren't space-faring civilizations everywhere.

Fyron

January 6th, 2004, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by JurijD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
May be they are waiting that our specie don't produce anymore the Saddam/Hitler type anymore to consider us as sentient ? Your surely mean Bush/Blair right? <hr /></blockquote>That is ridiculous, and partisan politics at its finest. Waging one small scale war (relative to the size/power of the country waging it) is NOTHING compared to what Saddam and Hitler did. What they did is not good, but certainly there is no valid basis of comparison with Saddam or Hitler.

spoon

January 6th, 2004, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by JurijD:
...these events are frequent enough to sterilise entire regions of the galaxy in short enough time scales to really make it improbable for advanced lifeforms to develop often. ... so I guess we're pretty lucky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Why do I get the sinking sensation that a black-hole has just formed nearby?

JurijD

January 6th, 2004, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Waging one small scale war (relative to the size/power of the country waging it) is NOTHING compared to what Saddam and Hitler did. What they did is not good, but certainly there is no valid basis of comparison with Saddam or Hitler. I beg to differ. Are 50.000 Iraqi lives less a value compared to 6.000.000 jews or 50.000 Kurds?
Either one is commited to peace or one isn't. How many people a stupid leader (like Hitler or Bush or Saddam) kills really isn't up to him/her but is decided by other influences at the time.

Sinapus

January 6th, 2004, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by JurijD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Waging one small scale war (relative to the size/power of the country waging it) is NOTHING compared to what Saddam and Hitler did. What they did is not good, but certainly there is no valid basis of comparison with Saddam or Hitler. I beg to differ. Are 50.000 Iraqi lives less a value compared to 6.000.000 jews or 50.000 Kurds?
Either one is commited to peace or one isn't. How many people a stupid leader (like Hitler or Bush or Saddam) kills really isn't up to him/her but is decided by other influences at the time. <hr /></blockquote>So we should give France back to the Germans with profuse apologies and reparations for that day/night strategic bombing campaign?

I mean they were rude to use an army to take it over, but to your logic we had no right to use an army to take it back and instead should have "committed to peace" and simply used stern language to reprove Hitler for his deeds...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Fyron

January 6th, 2004, 07:56 PM

JurijD... the loss of life in this war is nothing compared to the amount of blood on Saddam's hands, or to the amount of blood that would have been added in the future. Stern words with Saddam have failed for 8 years. Stern words with Hitler failed. Appeasement to tyrants is proven to be a BAD (strike that, horrendous) idea, by the events leading up to WWII and the war itself. We should learn from history so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Regardless of whether the war was "right" or not, you can not argue with the fact that with Saddam out of power, Iraq will become a better place. War is sometimes a necessary evil so that greater peace may be possible. You also can not argue with the fact that every nation that the US has knocked down and then rebuilt has become a rather successful, peaceful nation. Japan? Germany? Our worst enemies in WWII, yet allies and trading partners nowadays? It is only when nations are "rebuilt" by the UN that they have failed (not in all cases, but in some). Or when the Soviets or European colonial powers got involved... East Germany? Nearly every nation in Africa? Many in southern Asia? India? Well, India is (slowly) progressing, but it is still on the whole a very impoverished nation. Now, why does the US do this? Is it because we are nice and want to help people? Probably not. More likely it is because it is more profitable (and much safer) to build them up as friends and trade with them than it is to subjugate them. I'll take US imperialism over European imperialism any day. Iraq will (hopefully) be no exception.

JurijD

January 6th, 2004, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Even if these calculationa are correct, you underestimate the effect of 100 LY. Simple calculation reveals 10^30 attenuation factor. At worst it will be like radiation 1000 km away from the bomb. Extensive hydrogen bomb tests in 50s and 60s proved that there is nothing to fear http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Besides, the time duration odf star collapes is surely much longer than H-bomb explosion and the _intensity_ of the radiation will be very small indeed. You are so wrong Oleg... As I said they calculated that the intensity of the radiation over a couple hundred light years will be enough to kill us. I didn't underestimate the distances and neither did they. You on the other hand seem to have underestimated the ammount of gamma radiation that is released when all the outer material of a star if transormed into pure energy...

And u obviously didn't do those simple calculations you mentioned either. Lets assume this:

1. at a distance of 10km from the center of an explosion of an H-bomb the radiation IS LETHAL (we can all agree to that).

2. Lets say that the density of radiation comming from that H-bomb explosion at 10km distance is J1 = P/S1 (J1 being the density, S1 the surface area of a sphere at 1km and P the power output of the bomb)

3. At a distance of 100 Light years from the H-bomb the Density of radiation would therefore be J2=P/S2 where S2 is the surface of the radiation sphere at (9,4608*10^14 km = 100 light years)

As J2*S2=J1*S1, J2=J1*S1/S2, J2=J1*R1^2/R2^2
R1=10km
R2=9,4608*10^14 km

J2 is about 10^28th smaller than J1. that means that if we had an explosion 10^27 biggeer than that H-bomb we postulated could kill us at 10km, our dosage at 100 light years would be something like 10% of the dosage we get standing 10km from an H-bomb explosion.

To put it another way... if a back hole goes off somewhere in the distance of 100 light years we get the same ammout of radiation as if we were standing 30km from the center of a H-bomb explosion. (do the math yourself if you want).

And we musn't forget that these explosions don't stop in a few hours or days but can Last up to several decades or even more... The cumulative effect of that kind of radiation on the biosphere over so long would be devastating to say the least. And I was calculating for 100 light years... the systems at less than 50 or so would get totally fried anyway.

JurijD

January 6th, 2004, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Sinapus:
So we should give France back to the Germans with profuse apologies and reparations for that day/night strategic bombing campaign?

I mean they were rude to use an army to take it over, but to your logic we had no right to use an army to take it back and instead should have "committed to peace" and simply used stern language to reprove Hitler for his deeds...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif No France belongs to the French ... but an appology for the hundreds of thousands of women and children that were killed by the fire bombs in Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin etc. would be appropriate much the same way as the german administration apologized for bombing London and killing all those civilians.

But you prolly didn't learn about this side of teh conflict Sinapus... In war there are no bad guys and good guys, there are only soldiers each fighting for what they thing is a just cause... and whoever wins gets to decide who's cause was realy just.

JurijD

January 6th, 2004, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
JurijD... the loss of life in this war is nothing compared to the amount of blood on Saddam's hands, or to the amount of blood that would have been added in the future. Stern words with Saddam have failed for 8 years. Stern words with Hitler failed. Appeasement to tyrants is proven to be a BAD (strike that, horrendous) idea, by the events leading up to WWII and the war itself. We should learn from history so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Regardless of whether the war was "right" or not, you can not argue with the fact that with Saddam out of power, Iraq will become a better place. War is sometimes a necessary evil so that greater peace may be possible. You also can not argue with the fact that every nation that the US has knocked down and then rebuilt has become a rather successful, peaceful nation. Japan? Germany? Our worst enemies in WWII, yet allies and trading partners nowadays? It is only when nations are "rebuilt" by the UN that they have failed (not in all cases, but in some). Or when the Soviets or European colonial powers got involved... East Germany? Nearly every nation in Africa? Many in southern Asia? India? Well, India is (slowly) progressing, but it is still on the whole a very impoverished nation. Now, why does the US do this? Is it because we are nice and want to help people? Probably not. More likely it is because it is more profitable (and much safer) to build them up as friends and trade with them than it is to subjugate them. I'll take US imperialism over European imperialism any day. Iraq will (hopefully) be no exception. 1. No country has the right to attack another if not for self-defence(Read up on your international law).

2.The US has SCREWED up every country it ever tried to "build-up". Germany succeded because the Germans knew what needed to be done and didn't need the Americans to tell them anything. Same story with Japan. Now lets take a look at Liberia ... or maybe Sout America? How many government cues did the CIA start down there?? I lost count at 5 or 6. Argentina, Columbia, Salvador... it goes on and on.

3. The US killed off almost every other living being on their continent except the english speaking settlers... At least in Europe we were able to preserve our differences and keep peace for the greater proportion of history. Sure there were wars but only because people like the original american settlers wanted to wipe everyone else out but themselves... BUT they all failed and now we have a culturaly diverse Europe that is peaceful.... Which is more than your people were able to do... just look at your cities for gods sake... you people are divided into regions based on your skin color... come to Paris or Berlin and we'll give you Equality.

"All men are created equal..." yeah right tell that to all the native americans and black slaves you imported to your country.

And at a time when the world was going through a revolution in science and art your people actually brought back slavery and build up your country on that. Mucho gracias...

4. You people are so paranoid that Bush actually managed to persuade you that attacking Iraq is imperative. And now... your administration is begging for European countries to bring in troops of their own to help bare the costs of your GRAND PLANs not working out... The Iraquis would kick you out ina second if they could.

In conclusion:
1. The War in Iraq was WRONG it was the most disturbing turn of events since the war in Bosnia. And Bush & co. should be put to trial together with Saddam for what they have done.

2. If the US wanted to to the RIGHT THING they should have lifted the embargo and let the Iraqis breathe. But noooo... every time that was proposed you gave veto. But as Mr. Bushes EGO was to big he couln't swallow it and say: ok saddam lets work something out... we'll lift the sanctions and you'll let the inspectors in... no he had to go kill off something like 50k of soldiers in iraq.

3. The inspectors were in Iraq, Saddam didn't have one single piece of Nuclear or Bio or Chem warfare agents and the whole case Powel presented in the UN was laughable. Sure Saddam is an evil dictator but it is not our (or the USes) place to judge another country. It is it's own unit protected by international law and must be respected as such. Sooner or later the Iraqis would deal with Saddam on their own AND create a country based on what they think is right. Every time another country got involved and tried to modify another one by fore it led to DISASTER. And Iraq will be no different. At least they had water to drink some food to eat and electricity in their cities before. But now... half a year has gone by and we still hear the same old stuff.
The US should get the hell out of Iraq and let the UN sort things out.

4. Tell me this. If The Us is so concerned with evil dictators. Why in gods name were you allies with SADDAM UP TO 1991 ????

[ January 06, 2004, 18:41: Message edited by: JurijD ]

JurijD

January 6th, 2004, 08:57 PM

Take this for example... If say in a distant future a powerful islamic country were to attack the US because they thought your ways are perverted and your rulers are inhumane forcing every woman to work for her living and your health and education systems for creating getos.

wouln't that be fun... its the same thing with iraq just turned upside down.

Cipher7071

January 6th, 2004, 09:01 PM

I sense the shockwave from this thread imploding into another political argument. No wonder they seem to turn off intel so often. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

JurijD

January 6th, 2004, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Cipher7071:
I sense the shockwave from this thread imploding into another political argument. No wonder they seem to turn off intel so often. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I sense the deep wisdom of your words http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

January 7th, 2004, 12:01 AM

Hmm... where or where did my post go? Must have been an internet glitch. Oh well. *kicks DSL* Not worth retyping it, as this isn't going to go anywhere.

Puke

January 7th, 2004, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by JurijD:
At least in Europe we were able to preserve our differences and keep peace for the greater proportion of history. Sure there were wars but only because people like the original american settlers wanted to wipe everyone else out but themselves... BUT they all failed and now we have a culturaly diverse Europe that is peaceful....alright, im not going to get into the political pissing match with you guys, as neither of you seems to have any interest more than a fraction of one side of the story, but the above comments on peacefull Europe are just absurd. Thanks, I actually got to laugh out loud.

You have a 60 year reprieve after over 2000 years of bloody conflict, and you think you've invented utopia? did you even think about that before you typed it?

Western civilation suffered a thousand year decline after the classical period, technology and philosophy was lost, and only at the turn of the 20th century were we just rediscovering the Last of the principals of calculus invented by Aristotel, who was killed by Romans in 322 BCE!

Give yourselves a few years, you'll be at war again. Theres constant war just to the east of you, and you're funding plenty of wars in Africa.

Im not going to tell you that anyone else is any better, but dont be so quick to pat youself on the back while youre taking a **** on someone else.

JurijD

January 7th, 2004, 12:17 AM

1. Noone is funding wars in Africa apart from the US.

2. The "classical period" lol, yeah just another word for a time when 40% of the population were slaves... but hey your "classical" period was only 200 years back (50 years in some parts... oh and still is in others) no argument there.

3. Every US administration since the late 1970s was scared ****less that Europe might unite, kick them out and now that that is finally happening no wonder you people are paranoid about every little dispute in the security concil... I mean having 2 vetos and 1 more on the road is a big deal.

4. Anyone who says that Europe will get into another war is either stupid or thinks april fools is comming earlay this year. The old disputes over teritory and so on are irrelevent if you don't have any borders. Its like thinking Texas will invade Arizona or whatever to gain a few acres of land.

The historical development of Europe and the US is not at debate here anyway. I'm sure we each had our ups and downs. What is at debate however is the arrogant nature by which the US is trying to shape the world by its standards.

I mean why the hell isn't North Korea allowed nuclear weapons, is the US any better? Or Pakistan or India for that matter? The only reason why the US is trying so hard to "control" nuclear weapons is so they can BULLY everyone else into complying with their politics. And Since the unfortunate failure of Soviet Union, the US seems to think they'll be #1 for ever...

[ January 06, 2004, 22:25: Message edited by: JurijD ]

JurijD

January 7th, 2004, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
You have a 60 year reprieve after over 2000 years of bloody conflict, and you think you've invented utopia? did you even think about that before you typed it?
I always knew your schools don't give you much knowledge of history but I never suspected it was this bad... Don't judge the entire history based on the events of the first part of the 20th century.

I know there is no convincing you people that we did in fact ... inspite of all opposition and backstabbing by the US ... invet a sort of "utopia". Because for the first time in history countries have join together and eliminated borders, differences but retained cultures, Languages and all without a drop of blod.

I'm proud of it and I think our children will be too. I'm proud that I can say that this union wasn't born of war but of peace. If you can say the same about the US with a straight face be my guest.

[ January 06, 2004, 22:35: Message edited by: JurijD ]

Sinapus

January 7th, 2004, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JurijD:
At least in Europe we were able to preserve our differences and keep peace for the greater proportion of history. Sure there were wars but only because people like the original american settlers wanted to wipe everyone else out but themselves... BUT they all failed and now we have a culturaly diverse Europe that is peaceful....alright, im not going to get into the political pissing match with you guys, as neither of you seems to have any interest more than a fraction of one side of the story, but the above comments on peacefull Europe are just absurd. Thanks, I actually got to laugh out loud.

You have a 60 year reprieve after over 2000 years of bloody conflict, and you think you've invented utopia? did you even think about that before you typed it?
<hr /></blockquote>Worse: the profile says JurijD is from Slovenia.

Yes, people in Europe have had decades of peace devoid of icky people wanting to wipe out anyone but themselves. Especially the Balkans. Yep. No wars there for decades. Nope. Saw nothink. All is peace and calm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif (...used since there is no vomit smiley I can find.)

Originally posted by JurijD:
I always knew your schools don't give you much knowledge of history but I never suspected it was this bad... Don't judge the entire history based on the events of the first part of the 20th century.....

Your ignorance is amazing. Your neighboring country of Croatia was invaded barely a decade ago and... nevermind. There is obviously no point in discussing things with you.

[ January 06, 2004, 22:41: Message edited by: Sinapus ]

JurijD

January 7th, 2004, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Sinapus:
Your ignorance is amazing. Your neighboring country of Croatia was invaded barely a decade ago and... nevermind. There is obviously no point in discussing things with you. I don't need someone from the far side of the globe telling me about what happened in my back yard. You poeple are amazing, I never said there weren't any wars here. I said that we kept peace FOR THE GREATER PART OF OUR HISTORY! (calculate years of war for a country and divide by total time).

And another thing I was born in Sarajevo so I don't need you telling me what the difference between war and peace is and who did what in what war on the Balkans.

The reasons why you Americans are posting back and quoting only specific things is because I HURT YOUR EGO by saying the US wasn't such a nice country your great leaders claim it to be and you're responsible for a PILE of **** all over the globe, especially int he Last few decades when you got your courage back since those big ol Russian missles aren't targeting your cities any more.

[ January 06, 2004, 22:50: Message edited by: JurijD ]

JurijD

January 7th, 2004, 12:55 AM

Now lets cut the crap and leve it as it is as we obviously won't get anywhere with this. Its like trying to make the Cardassians appologize to the Bajorans (for a lack of a better example:).

Try to really elect a president this year, don't go to the courts again... thats another thing the classics taught us... separating the 3 pillars of power.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Puke

January 7th, 2004, 01:14 AM

Look here kid, you didnt hurt me ego, so dont be quite so proud of youself. I dont want any part in your political arguement. Yep, we're bullies. Yep, we dont want anyone else to have the weapons and power we have. Yep, we want to be the only superpower. A bit concerned about China and all the smaller fringe Groups that can pose a decentralized threat to our supremacy, and a touch worried about the unified European economy, but basically happy to be the top dog during this brief moment of history.

So now that I've gone an agreed with all the evil things you'd like to accuse us of over here, I'll repeat the reasons why I think you're being silly. First, you seem to think you've discovered some great secret, or that what we're doing is contrary to human nature, or that what you're doing is the next step of evolution. Get over your self. Neither of us are that special.

Second, you are plainly ignoring history. The dark ages Lasted hundres of years. The Pope begged kings and warlords to stop using crossbows and to stop killing other Christians. The Germans invaded Rome and put puppet popes in the Vatican on numerous occasions. France and England were at war for 100 years. Spain was conquered by Arabs and then took Iberia back, and started an inquisition to burn out the Last traces of forign religion. Its not the Last century im judging you on, its human history. And its not just you. im not just looking at the first half of this century, im looking at the history of our species.

China fell to the barbarian hordes, whom became the leaders of new dynasties. Japan underwent centuries of constant warfare. The age of exploration and the age of imperialism saw the bloody conquest of the entire globe by European superpowers. less than 200 Spaniards butchered 80,000 Incas without losing a man, and that was just one battle. England fought wars in China to force them to continue to buy opium. The Aztecs conquered and enslaved their neighbors. The plains indians of north america had mass graves where they burried the entire tribes of their enemies. Islanders from New Zeland conquered almost every other island in the pacific, reshaping them in their own image.

Cave men had sharp sticks

Monkies had rocks

If you still have your peacefull and borderless society in 200 years, you will have a reason to brag. Right now, the only thing you are telling me is that you are a hapless victim of propoganda. Which is okay, if most of the world didnt believe what they are fed by the media, how would the powers that be stay in control?

Loser

January 7th, 2004, 02:08 AM

Good one, Puke. Not too rough, not at all apologetic.

Fyron

January 7th, 2004, 02:42 AM

I have little to add to what Puke said (though he was being his usual pukey self there... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). My post that disappeared in the transition from notepad to internet touched on several of the issues he addressed anyways.

Now is the perfect time for all of you that have not yet rated Puke to give him the 1 that he so wants! (and according to Puke, deserves) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

(and you can go do a search to find the several threads (or many) in which he has specifically asked to be down-rated to a 1)

[ January 07, 2004, 00:44: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Krsqk

January 7th, 2004, 04:29 AM

I can't tell any more if this is a discussion of or an argument for galactic sterilization. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Fyron

January 7th, 2004, 05:16 AM

Argument for perhaps...

oleg

January 7th, 2004, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by JurijD:
...You are so wrong Oleg... can you point to the original paper you got all this crap from. There are so many flawed and overly hyped "models" publish these days one can hardly believe all this doomsday nonsense.

Fyron

January 7th, 2004, 05:43 AM

But he can bash the US and its citizens... what more could he ask for? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Kamog

January 7th, 2004, 07:12 AM

I searched around for more information about gamma ray bursts, and I found some articles discussing the bursts and the possibility of danger to life on earth:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/seti-99a.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gamma/milkyway.html
http://www.nature.com/nsu/030922/030922-7.html http://www.esa.int/export/esaCP/SEMVPXZO4HD_index_0.html

Puke

January 7th, 2004, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Now is the perfect time for all of you that have not yet rated Puke to give him the 1 that he so wants! (and according to Puke, deserves) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif and how! moderate me down before someone mistakenly places credibility on anything i say!

narf poit chez BOOM

January 7th, 2004, 11:14 AM

note one P-reading: ignore the insults. ignore the junk. concentrate on the points. their there.

oh, and if you really feel he needs it, i'll lend a hammer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Atrocities

January 7th, 2004, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Now is the perfect time for all of you that have not yet rated Puke to give him the 1 that he so wants! (and according to Puke, deserves) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif and how! moderate me down before someone mistakenly places credibility on anything i say! <hr /></blockquote>Fyron that is just cold man. Cold. I rated him 5 some time ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and stand by it. And Narf, there will be no hammer lending here! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif We use mallets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

January 7th, 2004, 11:21 AM

We use mallets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
hey, if it's got a handle and a blunt head, i'm all for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

JurijD

January 7th, 2004, 12:45 PM

Puke... you're someone that want to appologize the actions of your stupid leaders by saying:

" hey! we're not so bad if the Europeans did it a few centuries back."

Its the AGE OLD EXCUSE the Nazis used... "please don't blame me for killing all those jews... I was ordered to do it"

Or the murderer:"Don't blame me for killing them, It's in my NATURE, its in my blood... I couln't help it"

Way to go:) You really convinced me that the actions of your beloved county were justified with that. yeah right...

I mean come on watch something else besides CNN and FOX. Talk to other people, ask someone from Iraq what he/she thinks about Bush or someone from Europe for that matter or India or China or whatever.... don't take my word for it, take the worlds word.

If then you'll still think that the majority of the world approves pf what you are doing I'll take all I said back.

By your logic its ok that you killed off all those native americans because HEY... they had mass graves of their own. And its ok that you killed something like 50k of Iraqi soldiers in the two gulf wars because hey... their leaders were killing them anyway so lets kill a whole bunch more and we'll make it all better for them.

But since this board is dominated by people from the US I didn't even think for one minute you'll be able to see past the mistakes your country is making these days....

cheers

P.S.: Its too bad really you people could learn from the mistakes European countries made all those centuries ago when they tried to divide the world between themselves. But no... you have to have it the hard way. Ok fine by me:) We'll see how things stand in 200 years ... lol

[ January 07, 2004, 11:10: Message edited by: JurijD ]

dogscoff

January 7th, 2004, 01:33 PM

*dogscoff uses his stellar manip components to trigger a black hole event in the middle of the thread. Those people actually reading the thread for the on-topic stuff are prepared for the burst of Gamma radiation and manage to shield themselves in time. Everyone else is too busy discussing politics to notice and gets fried instantly. Sorry guys.

One thing about this whole black hole sterilisation theory is that it assumes that alien life-forms are as (un)resistant to radiation as humans. There could be life forms out there that would are highly resistant to this stuff and would therefore survive.

narf poit chez BOOM

January 7th, 2004, 06:10 PM

*Narf tries to eat Dogscoff's brains*

Fyron

January 7th, 2004, 06:46 PM

Interesting how you read what you wanted to hear out of Puke's post, and not what he actually posted JurijD. Though, I suppose that was to be expected.

Fyron

January 7th, 2004, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Puke:
and how! moderate me down before someone mistakenly places credibility on anything i say! Fyron that is just cold man. Cold. I rated him 5 some time ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and stand by it. <hr /></blockquote>People like you make me sick. Can't even give a guy the rating he requests. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif j/k

Puke

January 7th, 2004, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by JurijD:
Puke... you're someone that want to appologize the actions of your stupid leaders by saying:

" hey! we're not so bad if the Europeans did it a few centuries back." no, you are still not paying attention. i'm not appologizing for anything. im admitting that we're on top, and behaving badly. theres no excuses here.

im telling you that you are downright stupid (i said silly before, but you keep dragging it out) for glorifying yourself, vilifying those whom you think are your enemy, and ignoring historical realities in favor of your own rose-colored worldview.

people are animals. wake the hell up, and stop crying about it to me.

you want to argue politics, do it with someone else. if you haven't noticed, im not disagreeing with anything besides your propoganda about one group of people (which has never been one unified group) being a peace loving, brotherly, pillar of civility.

So go ahead, continue your political discussion as if I hadnt interupted. Just dont complain when I poke my head in and make fun of you, when you are ignoring everything we know about history from written accounts, verbal traditions, and archeological evidence. Dont worry, I'll make fun of the Americans, too.

definitly an arugement FOR galactic sterilization. crimeny, i hope it happens sooner than later. preferably after a good night on the town, and before the hangover.

edit:

Or the murderer:"Don't blame me for killing them, It's in my NATURE, its in my blood... I couln't help it"okay, maybe i was saying that. but i stand by it. people are killers, its what we do. im not telling you our way is the right way, or that we are so great, or that people love us, or that we're helping anyone, or even that most people in our country like what we are doing. thats why i try not to get into these things. Our empire will probably be over in a few hundred years. I doubt we have anywhere to go but down. Thats the way history is. There will be someone else after us, and someone else after them.

You cant just choose not to participate, and have your peaceful society on the sidelines - those are the people whom are crushed and exploited by whomever is in power at the time. The Incas would have been happy to have not participated, so would have the Japanese in the 1500s. So would have China. So would have the tribsemen in the Congo, and the Inuit, and the Maori. But 'opting-out' isnt a valid option, its eat or be eaten. Thanks to modern society, we have stopped evolving biologically - but cultural evolution continues. Yeah, lots of people would like to live in peace - but unless there really is a divine hand in the universe, they're not going to get to.

[ January 07, 2004, 18:08: Message edited by: Puke ]

Puke

January 7th, 2004, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
One thing about this whole black hole sterilisation theory is that it assumes that alien life-forms are as (un)resistant to radiation as humans. There could be life forms out there that would are highly resistant to this stuff and would therefore survive. oh yeah, lets see how clever you think that is, when the space ship of Giant Mutant Radioactive Cockroaches actually LANDS. good thing we had 50s 'B' movies to prepair us for the day...

JurijD

January 7th, 2004, 08:13 PM

Puke... we seem to be talking about two different things. Thats why we don't see eye to eye, Fyron you have no clue what we're talking about but that was to be expected.

1. Ok you admit that you people are wrong for what you're doing. We agree on this.

2. You're saying we're the same as you are because people are pigs. NO I dissagree! We did make mistakes in tha past but the political stand Germany&France took on the Iraq issue is the right one and that is that.

3. Everything else that was said is irrelevant.

Astrocities... banta poo.. I like it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif hehe. But you're forgetting that the black hole in the center of the galaxy has already formed and won't produce a Gamma ray explosion. Phew.

Oleg... noone said this was a proven theory and it was all 100% true. What I gave here was a theory that was proposed by several scientists that are obserbving these gamma reay bursts. And since you obviously ignored my claculation that clearly showed that is is possible for an Gamma ray explosion of 10^27th power of an Hbomb to kill us 100 yight years away I won't waste another word.

About life forms that are resistant to radiation... yes that is a valid point we don't know how radiation will affect other life forms but yopu gotta admit that if you're something like 10 light years from this excplosion and you get 100x the dosage you get at an H-bomb rexplosion... well that can't be good for anything. I think its only a function of the distance.

Puke

January 8th, 2004, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by JurijD:
1. Ok you admit that you people are wrong for what you're doing. We agree on this.no, i dont. i didnt say anything of the sort. stop trying to get me into this. i just said we aren't RIGHT. because there is no right and wrong, its all subjective. you dont like it, so its making you mad. fine, be mad at someone else, i dont care about politics. or be mad at ME because im a nasty person, just stop trying to put words in my mouth.

2. You're saying we're the same as you are because people are pigs. NO I dissagree! We did make mistakes in tha past but the political stand Germany&France took on the Iraq issue is the right one and that is that.ooooOOOOooooh, im so glad you're "right." Is god on your side too? god was also on the cananites side, the egyptians, the mohamadians, the jews, the eastern orthodox, and danm near everyone else whom was "right." Congratulations on being "right."

About life forms that are resistant to radiation... yes that is a valid point we don't know how radiation will affect other life forms but yopu gotta admit that if you're something like 10 light years from this excplosion and you get 100x the dosage you get at an H-bomb rexplosion... well that can't be good for anything. I think its only a function of the distance.You know, the scariest thing is that if most of the world is wiped out, we probably have the technology to breed the human race back to health, even with very little stock. The problem is that the people whom survive would be those who spend their time in bunkers like NORAD, so the future generations of the human race would be made up entirely from CAREER GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES. Career MILITARY employees, if being government wasnt bad enough.

unfortuneatly, the military tends to be a vicious cycle of stupididy, much like the vicious circle of poverty, but slightly different. higher ranks are often full of dipsticks, so the smart people dont re-enlist. so only morons advance, thus perpetuating the cycle.

So there we have it. the future of SE4 style galactic combat will be fought out by inbred military morons, vs giant radioactive cockroaches. glorious.

Paul1980au

January 8th, 2004, 01:25 AM

New tech trees for inbred cockroach races that are military reps.

TerranC

January 8th, 2004, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Isn't the center of our galaxy some super mega black hole? I seem to recall a show on the Discovery channel that talked about this. They figure that in about a billion years we are bantha poodo. Aye, but for some damn reason, The milky way, just like the rest of the universe is apparently dispersing rather than being sucked into the hugh black hole at the core of our galaxy.

Pretty "soon", the Magellenic clouds and the milky way galaxies will collide, creating one huge galaxy that will still keep dispersing.

[ January 07, 2004, 23:50: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Fyron

January 8th, 2004, 02:04 AM

Fyron you have no clue what we're talking about but that was to be expected. That is an extremely ignorant and naive statement. Too bad that long post I had written disappeared. Oh well. Return to your fantasy world.

Originally posted by Puke:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JurijD:
1. Ok you admit that you people are wrong for what you're doing. We agree on this.no, i dont. i didnt say anything of the sort. stop trying to get me into this. i just said we aren't RIGHT. because there is no right and wrong, its all subjective. you dont like it, so its making you mad. fine, be mad at someone else, i dont care about politics. or be mad at ME because im a nasty person, just stop trying to put words in my mouth.

<hr /></blockquote>This is exactly what I was talking about JurijD. You are stereotyping people here and reading what you want to read, not necessarily what was posted.

[ January 08, 2004, 00:09: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

President_Elect_Shang

January 8th, 2004, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
unfortuneatly, the military tends to be a vicious cycle of stupididy, much like the vicious circle of poverty, but slightly different. higher ranks are often full of dipsticks, so the smart people dont re-enlist. so only morons advance, thus perpetuating the cycle.Could you explain this one again?

Atrocities

January 8th, 2004, 02:54 AM

Isn't the center of our galaxy some super mega black hole? I seem to recall a show on the Discovery channel that talked about this. They figure that in about a billion years we are bantha poodo.

Puke

January 8th, 2004, 03:04 AM

alright, i was partially joking, and partially basing the statement on what all my friends from the armed forces tell me, so dont take it personally. So forgive me for repeating, I will take your request as an honest search for explaination due to my poor verbalization, rather than incredulity.

1 - military enlistees enter the armed forces for a tour of duty.

2 - short 5-year tour of duty ends, smart enlistees decide that its a bunch of bull**** and decide to go make something else of their life

3 - not-so-smart enlistees re-enlist, and go on to become officers

4 - future smart generations of enlistees see that only morons have made it through to the top ranks, and leave after their first tour, again leaving only the morons to reinslist

5 - cycle repeats ad-nauseam (much like the vicious circle of poverty, where poverty leads to fewer opportunities which leads to more poverty - a well known academic sociological concept)

6 - radiation from a black hole wipes out all the human population, save those senior military people (distilled from generations of moron re-enlistees) whom are in deep bunkers, such as NORAD

7 - with limited gene stock and advanced technology, we repopulate the world with inbred incompetants

8 - elsewhere in the universe, giant mutant radioactive cockroaches are immune to sterilization from blackhole radiation, and somehow achieve spaceflight.

9 - your race options for SE4 suddenly look alot less apealing.

TerranC

January 8th, 2004, 03:22 AM

deccan

January 8th, 2004, 03:40 AM

Ooh, haven't been in this forum for a while, but I felt that I had to show my agreement with Puke here.

*Clap clap. *

And I'm not from the U.S. I'm from Malaysia.

Narrew

January 8th, 2004, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
alright, i was partially joking,.

4 - future smart generations of enlistees see that only morons have made it through to the top ranks, and leave after their first tour, again leaving only the morons to reinslist

5 - cycle repeats ad-nauseam (much like the vicious circle of poverty, where poverty leads to fewer opportunities which leads to more poverty - a well known academic sociological concept)
This cycle also reminds me of the Union Job I had, people had no reason to strive to be better and if you did and you were low on the totem pole you heard about it from shop stewards or people that have been there for ever. Not that I am anything special, but its not suprising that I only worked there for about a year and half.

President_Elect_Shang

January 8th, 2004, 03:48 AM

Here is a thought for you; your opinion is based on the views of only those that got out? Did I get that part right? So military (regardless of branch or country or enlisted or officer) are morons.

Now my wife is one of these morons and she holds a BA.
Her boss holds a MA.
The officer over all of them holds a PhD.

So using your opinion we all can safely say that:

Carrer military = Moron
Carrer military = BA, MA, and PhD
So:
BA, MA, and PhD (regardless of field) = Moron

Thus anyone who holds a BA, MA, or PhD is also a moron.

You have obviously thought this out very well and from every angle based on good information.

Nice job Puke!

[ January 08, 2004, 01:55: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

Fyron

January 8th, 2004, 04:40 AM

Actually... a lot of people with such degrees are morons anyways...

Loser

January 8th, 2004, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Carrer military = Moron
Carrer military = BA, MA, and PhD
So:
BA, MA, and PhD (regardless of field) = MoronAll Lemon Scented Dawn is soap, but not all soap is Lemon Scented Dawn.

This Logic Error is brought to you by the letters ? and Z and the concept pling.

Fyron

January 8th, 2004, 05:27 AM

And Puke never claimed that every single person in the military was a moron, just that a lot of them are.

President_Elect_Shang

January 8th, 2004, 06:28 AM

Yes �Loser� that is the obvious, I don�t think that anyone here could have missed the flaw in the logic but thanks anyway. Did you happen to notice the flaw in his reasoning? Or was that only obvious to me as I thought it was just as clear as mine was.

Fyron I am not sure what you read, so allow me to cut and paste his words.

Puke said: �3 - not-so-smart enlistees re-enlist, and go on to become officers�

That sounds to me to be the same as:

If you are a carrier soldier (you reenlist) than you are a moron? So what part of that did you miss?
Or maybe this will help:

�4 - future smart generations of enlistees see that only morons have made it through to the top ranks, and leave after their first tour, again leaving only the morons to reinslist�

So lets see, still we have the statement that only morons make a carrier, did you catch it that time?

Don�t patronize me.

[ January 08, 2004, 04:30: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

narf poit chez BOOM

January 8th, 2004, 07:06 AM

*TC invites everyone to pull up a chair beside him, grab a bag of popcorn, and watch this colourful thread slowly, but exciting-ly progress.*

*TC would like to remind everyone though of a little side note; the popcorn bags cost 10 american each.*
*narf brings a 10-liter bag of his own popcorn and a lawnchair and sits in the spectater seats*

Fyron

January 8th, 2004, 09:30 AM

unfortuneatly, the military tends to be a vicious cycle of stupididy, much like the vicious circle of poverty, but slightly different. higher ranks are often full of dipsticks...Well if you look at what he said to begin this, rather than just the fleshed out logic, it would support the statement that not all military officers are morons. As long as you don't take the second post alone and out of context, Puke was not saying that 100% of military officers are morons. Now, he could have worded the second post more consistently, but he didn't.

I was not intentionally patronizing you (Shang). I fail to see how you got a patronizing tone out of my post.

dogscoff

January 8th, 2004, 11:38 AM

For a while this thread was going really well (giant radioactive roaches- perfect conversational material for a Rubber-Godzilla-fetishist like me) but now ppl are getting angry again and everyone else is settling back with popcorn. This thread is obviously destined to devolve into some kind of cagematch, therefore...

*dogscoff dons his "Dogscoff the Destroyer" mask and cape and leaps into the ring, smashes a chair over Shang's back, elbows Fyron in the face, bodyslams Puke and then turns to flex and chant to the crowd.

narf poit chez BOOM

January 8th, 2004, 11:54 AM

*cheers and throws popcorn at Dogscoff*

President_Elect_Shang

January 8th, 2004, 03:59 PM

Shang stumbles back to his feet and as dogscoff faces the crowed grabs his ears and bites a chunk off one. Spiting it out on the floor he turns to the now wreathing in agony dogscoff and says �Ops, sorry wrong sport, thought we were boxing�.

No I won�t let this slink into the slums of a fight; I am very sensitive right now considering my RL situation and in the name of peace will admit that I overreacted. Everyone has the right to a personal opinion, whether it is worded clearly or not, based on fact or fiction, or even if it is agreed to by others or opposed. This is not a reference to Puke�s or anyone�s posting on this thread, it is just a statement about my personal philosophy.

I am human and bound to fail from time-to-time at applying every aspect (morale, philosophical, etc) that I try to live by, and I have failed to do so here. The only thing I can say is that I overreacted and need to stand up (that chair sure did hurt) dust off and learn that this is a (considering my stress and emotional state) personal pet peeve. I am not excusing my postings, only a time machine could do that, I am just offering the best apology to everyone who reads this post that I can muster. What kind of a poor example have I just set?

Loser

January 8th, 2004, 04:39 PM

I disagree with you, Atrocities. What Puke said was not only funny, but carries some truth to it.

I was going to go into more detail about my feeling for GIs, but it isn't coming out well. Actually, on proof it looks like I've tried again... this could lose me a pip or two...

It suffices to say that I live in a 'military town' with five separate bases including NORAD, which was mentioned earlier in the thread.

I see a lot of the enlisted kids, and they tend to be trouble. I'll be as friendly and humane to a stranger in the service as I would be to any other stranger, and some of these kids are decent company with a few really good people mixed in. But I'd rather they didn't date my female friends, the female friends of my friends, or any friend's sister. It consistently works out poorly.

I see a lot of retired military, and they are consistently good people, especially the marines. They make for good conversations and, when appropriate, tend to tip pretty well. I do wish we didn't have so many 'wash outs' around town (quite different than retirees), but if it wasn't them filling in the local can't-hold-down-a-job-caught-in-a-storm-of-self-destruction positions I suppose it would just be someone else.

I hear a lot about the decision-making process in the military, both from those in the service, those who have been in the service, and through the thousands of defense contractors around town, and Puke's description of their apparent intelligence is only slightly exaggerated.

Now, I have the highest respect for the Military and the men and women serving our country in such a matter. They are working in a way that benefits my own life in very real ways. But Puke's joke, which was funny, makes light of problems that some of us see on an almost day-to-day basis. Really, they put the corporate world to shame when it comes to clumsy decisions and Puke's explanation is as good as any, and made for a nice tie-back into the whole cockroach-thing.

Shang is .. I reread the thread during a proofread and it looks like Shang's issue is resolved. Cool, man.

I hear more complaints like those Puke is describing from military personnel than I hear from anywhere else. It's a common joke, not any blasphemy on Puke's part. On top of that Puke has done a good job of making clear not only his harmless intentions, but the close-to-home source of the joke.

Of course, it's also possible that you are referring to a post Puke made that has been removed. I'm talking about the ones I can see now.

President_Elect_Shang

January 8th, 2004, 06:31 PM

Does the military have its flaws? Sure it does, more so than most any other company, organization, or anything else you compare it to. For one example it is the test bed for new practices, and the military is often used to try out concepts; such as how to integrate different races, how to handle homosexuals to name only two!

You don�t want any female friend to date a military soldier/sailor/airman etc. I don�t have enough fingers toes and you know what to count the number of times I have heard that one. It shocks and amazes me that if a �female friend� is jaded by a soldier it is a crime, but if an employee of lets say Microsoft does the same thing, hay that�s all good. I mean after all when she dated the employee it was her free choice, but she had to have been coerced into dating the soldier right? Can anyone say bigotry, or did you think that only applied when used in a different context?

You say that you have seen many enlisted kids that are trouble, sure there is many, hell I put one soldier back on the street when I was in, and I am proud to have of kicked him out. Please allow me to point out three things. First unlike a company if you place a PROPERLY (read that word twice) done complaint on a soldier (enlisted or officer) the complaint is followed up on even if it was submitted by a civilian. Secondly the military spends a great deal of money and effort to rehabilitee and reeducate (not as rough as that sounds) troubled individuals. This is the way of life in the military, after all we are speaking about the ONLY organization that will take a person regardless of financial status, most health issues, and education levels off the street and put them into a job that has guaranteed pay, 30 days paid vacation, and full free medical coverage for you and your dependents. But that is only the tip of the iceberg. Third those same troubled soldiers that you refer to will be discharged if it is warranted and where do you think they go to after leaving? Presto instant civilian. As a note I will add that most of those troubled individuals had problems when they came in, that�s why they joined, but as I said already it is the ONLY organization that will give most anyone a try.

Let me wrap this up by touching on the decision making process? It is a common joke in the armed forces that there is no such thing as Military Intelligence (MI is a job field) for good reason. But then you have to also consider that most decisions are made by an individual who has a noose about his/her neck. If you look closely you will see the noose has a label, and on that label is printed: PROPERTY OF THE US GOVERNMENT AND THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE WHO ELECT THE OFFICIALS.

Oh yes one Last thing, yes, Puke did not mean harm and I did apologize for getting worked up, what more would you have me do? Build a time machine? Considering how close to home he hit (not just metaphorically speaking) I did not think it was funny, but as I said I apologize for getting out-of-hand there is no excuse for my actions.

Atrocities

January 8th, 2004, 06:56 PM

We all have our differances of opinion. Poor timing aside Loser, perhaps they might have been humors, but not right now.

Fyron

January 8th, 2004, 07:17 PM

Times of war are the best times to make fun of the military, actually. It is called freedom of speech. If it is not allowed in times of crisis, we do not really have it.

President_Elect_Shang

January 8th, 2004, 08:04 PM

Taken from the paper "The Army Times" dated January 5th 2004:

Faces of the Fallen
U.S. troops who died since Jan. 1 [2003].

�More than 500 service members died in operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom in 2003, a group that represents the full, rich face of America�s diversity.�

You can pick up a copy at most major book stores, except that this is an old article (they come out every two weeks) so you may have to order it. On the other hand I can scan and email the pages for you but I can�t guarantee the quality of the color photos, that way you can look at the pictures and see the men and women, young and older, husbands and wives, daughters and sons, officers and enlisted that came home in body bags. Yes I agree with free speech! And I for one was laughing my proverbial buttocks off as I looked at these faces. Oh look that one was only 19 ha-ha-ha, and quick look on this page he was 54, I bet his grandchildren are laughing as hard as I am. Ha-ha-ha, but the kicker of them all, the one that really cracks me up so much that I pee my pants is this one 27 year old female Sergeant, know what�s so funny about that? She died in her husbands arms; get it because he sure did HA-HA-HA.

There is a very thick line between free speech and calling even one of these deceased a moron and not a single one of us here can separate the morons from the non-morons, I agree with Atrocities in that it might have been funny at another time.

Times of war are the best times to make fun of the military? I don�t agree with that, no I would say that times of war are the best times to make fun of the government that sent the military into combat. Government does not equal military (soldiers) but the two are too often freely swapped in speech, that is a side effect I feel of our society�s freedom.

Loser

January 8th, 2004, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
what more would you have me do? Nothing more, I felt I made it clear that was settled in a manner of which I think well. Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
It shocks and amazes me that if a �female friend� is jaded by a soldier it is a crime, but if an employee of lets say Microsoft does the same thing, hay that�s all good. I mean after all when she dated the employee it was her free choice, but she had to have been coerced into dating the soldier right? Can anyone say bigotry, or did you think that only applied when used in a different context?First of all I will admit to the accusation of bigotry. It is only appropriate, as I will not rescind the things I have said and the word fits.

Second, my carefully worded statement did not indicate that the fault lies solely with the GI. It may be as much a problem with the kind of girl that falls for the soldier. But on an emotional level who do you expect me to side with, beyond reason, led by my 'gut': the young lady I call a friend or have watched grow up, or the young man I don't know who has all the faults you might expect for a young man in the GI's situation? (Being away from everything you are familiar with and caught up in a new and different culture will change a person, and leave a few marks.) The conclusion is natural.

The other reason I worry about these relationships when I see them start is how consistently they end very, very poorly. I've deleted a paragraph here where I recounted anecdotes, it wasn't going to accomplish much. On an additionally note though, if its a local boy I can 'have a talk' with him. This isn't really possible with a GI, not even when taken more literally. The GI can retreat into military life and there's nothing I can do about the conflict.

I do know about the CO approach to civilian-vs.-GI problem solving. I have used this method to collect on debts, 'banish' problematic party regulars, and in one very special case I even used it to make a married fellow in the Army leave my girlfriend alone. Sometimes girls have trouble being final with their 'no', or maybe she just didn't want to be final, I don't know. Either way and whatever happened she never saw him again and had no idea what happened. So yes, this is a useful way of dealing with certain situations after they have happened.

And I know about the unmatched redemption from circumstances the military offers its recruits. I've lived with military presence all my life and I know why many GIs are the way they are. This is no reason for me to be any less careful. I have some good ideas why the decision making process works the way it does. This is no reason for me to find any less amusement at its expense. That's just what it is like for a civilian living in a military town, it is the nature of the situation.

And if there is anything in the matters discussed here that our military is doing wrong I don't have any delusions that I could do it better. I'm not delivering serious criticisms. I was defending a joke against a blanket sanction. Later I was trying to defend the fact that decisions made by those in the upper echelons of the military are worthy of some amount of mockery. It looks like one of my 'I have authority in this subject' points went a bit astray. I am sorry about that, I suppose, this thread hardly needs another derail.

Atrocities, I am glad we can disagree amiably enough.

Having refreshed once more before posting I see your latest, Shang. That's a bit over the line. I do regret if I have contributed to whatever got you that worked up. But here I am, putting-up the post I wrote before I read that Last bit of rhetoric anyway

Atrocities

January 8th, 2004, 08:49 PM

I think that any one who has lost someone or has someone at risk in this conflict would find the comments in these Posts over the Last few days very dishearting. I sure do.

Lets shelve this debate for another time gentalmen, right now is NOT the time to be making fun or insulting the men and women of the armed forces.

Puke

January 8th, 2004, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Narrew:
This cycle also reminds me of the Union Job I had, people had no reason to strive to be better and if you did and you were low on the totem pole you heard about it from shop stewards or people that have been there for ever. Not that I am anything special, but its not suprising that I only worked there for about a year and half. alright, settle down everyone. theres alot of sharp folks in the military and the defense industry, I know alot of them. I also know alot of people whom disparage their co-workers, and it applies to EVERY industry, as Narrew describes above.

Just like almost every office worker can draw similarities between their place of work, and a Dilbert comic strip.

no one is trying to take a crap on our armed forces, but at the same time im not going to qualify every wisecrack with two pages of flowery exceptions, just to make sure your feelings dont get bruised. take a deep breath, and exhale. Repeat.

President_Elect_Shang

January 8th, 2004, 09:15 PM

Yes, I would expect you to side with the lady friend. I read the comment to be more generalized when here you were being specific, my fault indeed.

They do mostly end poorly (from my exposure at having seen many first hand) but I think that has more to do with age than profession.

I hope they Article 15 the SOB, he was married for heavens sake. If she meant to carry on with him or not is not so much the point, that said the military is VERY strict about that and related topics. He is probably sitting at home after a dishonorable discharge cursing your name.

That Last bit was only pointed at the moron aspect; it was intended to convey the message that in referring to the military it is no laughing matter becouse you referring to men and women, not faceless entities. But I respect the request of Atrocities so bygones-be-bygones.

Atrocities

January 8th, 2004, 09:16 PM

Does any one remember what this thread was originally about? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

JurijD

January 8th, 2004, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Does any one remember what this thread was originally about? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif It was about me telling something aboug gamma ray explosion and then some guy pointed out something about Hitler/Saddam and then I pointed out something abut Bush/Blair and then all hell broke loose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif First about the EU/US dogfight and then about the US military.

P.S.: Love your shipsets Atrocities, using the ST: TNG now. Must have been quite an effort to put it all together.

P.P.S: Puke... we're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about the current state of affairs and my (and the majority of the world's) oppinion on it AND you're (as I understand) talking about some phylosophical debate about there being no right and wrong... I don't care anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I pointed our my position very clearly and so did you. So lets leve it at that and let history make its judgments.

[ January 08, 2004, 19:32: Message edited by: JurijD ]

Atrocities

January 8th, 2004, 09:37 PM

Thanks.

I am glad that you are enjoying the ship sets. There have been so many varations of them over the Last three years, check that four years now, that the effort behind them has long since pasted into ledgend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Seriously, most of the sets were a lot of fun developing. The federation sets all use models from Starfleet Command I, II, and Orion Pirates.

The Klingons / Romulans use some models from those games, BOTF, and a Klingon ship game that I cannot remember the name of.

I enjoy the TNG set too. I seldom if ever use it in any PBW games because there are so many others who want to play the Federation that I often opt to play another race. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

President_Elect_Shang

January 8th, 2004, 09:45 PM

It was originally about advanced life and black holes; he wrapped up his opening statement by saying that we are pretty lucky here on Earth. But isn�t that the truth in general? I mean our position around the sun, the type of life and wonder of diversity we have, the move to tool use and development of intelligence, and what about Goober Grape? Aren�t we lucky to have that to eat on bread? I love that stuff, and so does my son. I mean for heavens sake he will sneak the jar into his room and eat it straight from the bottle. Then he comes to me with it smeared on his face and asks for water because he�s thirsty. No doubt you are I would be too if I had just eaten half a freaking bottle in under 2.5 seconds. Give it a rest guy; I don�t want him to grow up with his mouth glued shut from peanut butter. What a mad man I have!

Fyron

January 8th, 2004, 09:51 PM

Wow... I see statements of making fun of the military itself have (as probably should have been expected) been grossly twisted into making fun of specific people that died. So sad that you guys had to read what you wanted to read, not what was said. Making fun of the military does not constitute making fun of the soldiers that died in ANY way, shape, or form. "The military" IS an abstract entity, divorced from the soldiers in it. Mocking the military itself is ENTIRELY different than mocking the men and women themselves of the armed forces.

Puke

January 8th, 2004, 09:57 PM

whoops, got that Last post in before reading the wind-down. ignore me, as usual.

so, if we wanted a burst of radiation to sterilize the planet, am i correct that we could only expect to zap one hemisphere of it? it wouldnt be all that hard to repopulate and keep the species going if we had a whole half the world to work with. Maybe JurijD would get lucky, and only the americas would be wiped out. Admittedly, that wouold not bode well for our nothern and southern neighbors, but acceptable losses, and all that.

tesco samoa

January 8th, 2004, 11:48 PM

yes we would lose a few hockey teams.

But we would win the cup every year.

But I would not be able to travel to small american towns all over...

But the cup would be back here.

Then I guess Canadians would be considered bad. But I would rather see a donut shop all over the world than the golden arches http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And no more of that ice tea problem.

Cause ice tea would be what it is ice tea... no strange brew tea and let it get cold to drink...

I think mostly i would miss the small brew pubs and micro brewerys.

And the fact I never saw California.

Oh and no SEV...

AT That is a good ship set.

Fyron

January 9th, 2004, 12:22 AM

Cause ice tea would be what it is ice tea... no strange brew tea and let it get cold to drink... Huh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif What do you call iced tea?

narf poit chez BOOM

January 9th, 2004, 01:31 AM

*wander's off to get a 4-liter chocalate milk*

*wander's back*

JurijD

January 9th, 2004, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
whoops, got that Last post in before reading the wind-down. ignore me, as usual.

so, if we wanted a burst of radiation to sterilize the planet, am i correct that we could only expect to zap one hemisphere of it? it wouldnt be all that hard to repopulate and keep the species going if we had a whole half the world to work with. Maybe JurijD would get lucky, and only the americas would be wiped out. Admittedly, that wouold not bode well for our nothern and southern neighbors, but acceptable losses, and all that. Well I did think about that. (already had plans on creating a black hole somewhere near us) Couldn't get the damn Tesla matter-energy transformer to work properly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
But the real problem is that these bursts Last for several decades and hehe the Earth tends to rotate every now and then (I read 24h somewhere... I don't know where Oleg, should you want my refrences again)

But seriously... this issue I raised that was directed against the US is the same as with that military thing you were talking about. And as Fyron pointed out: The US and its citizens are two different things. I got nothing against you poeple, I even got several american friends... heck my english teacher was American and we let her live. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I mean you people can't help it if you got leaders that have **** for brains.... I mean you tried to elect a better president (Gore got something like 63% of total cross US votes) but the courts didn't agree with you.. so lets hope you get democracy going again before the next election. Or at least deal with this silly electoral system before it bites you in the *** again.

Forget about each individual state and just simply add up all the votes cross country. Isn't that the most fair and democratic way? And besides everyone else is doing it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ January 09, 2004, 00:09: Message edited by: JurijD ]

Loser

January 9th, 2004, 02:26 AM

Everyone else is doing at lot of things we aren't, buddy. Our way is better. ^_^

Anyway, your figure is a little off. The difference between 47% and 63% is pretty big, but remember that was just an estimate. They never did finish counting the votes in Florida. A U.S. Presidential candidate does not need the majority to win, he just has to have more votes than the other guys. It's kind of like running from a bear in that way.

Let the party resume.

President_Elect_Shang

January 9th, 2004, 02:33 AM

It truly saddens me to think that the concept of the military has been reduced to that of a nameless and faceless organization for the sole purpose of preserving an argument. If it was not for those same nameless and faceless people there would be no �military� to speak of in the first place. But rather than concede a point or let it drop it is easier to shape the truth into a surrealistic Version, for what? Just to argue more. It also shames me to think that I have sat here and typed up my responses, conceding and apologizing for when I was mistaken, just to see that only a very few others where able to do the same. The self-righteous have truly gained the majority, able to counter every point conceivable to continue their argument. Well, I think that is about enough from me.

Fyron for your information:
Military (adjective): Of or relating to SOLDIERS
Military (noun): military PERSONS

Atrocities

January 9th, 2004, 02:38 AM

Puke http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif what you posted was in no way funny. You have to understand that it hurts people who have loved one serving in the military and is rather rude considering what is going on in the world today. Additionally all of my friends and family who have served in the armed forces have never said anything negative about their experience, even the guy who was court marshaled, and most of them are very intelligent, hard working, family people with good jobs and stable income.

I hope that in the future you will considered the harm an animosity that such a derogatory post would generate and refrain from posting.

[ January 08, 2004, 12:42: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Atrocities

January 9th, 2004, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Atrocities:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Puke:
and how! moderate me down before someone mistakenly places credibility on anything i say! Fyron that is just cold man. Cold. I rated him 5 some time ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and stand by it. <hr /></blockquote>People like you make me sick. Can't even give a guy the rating he requests. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif j/k <hr /></blockquote>I understand the error of my ways now. Please forgive me. I was horribly wrong and will forever live with this regret. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 08, 2004, 12:50: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Fyron

January 9th, 2004, 02:52 AM

Those are rather crude and irrelevant definitions...

All I was saying was that your tactic of guilt-mongering was completely irrelevant to what was being discussed (as guilt-mongering tends to be). I have shaped no truths, created no surrealistic Versions, none of that bunk. Noone "reduced to that of a nameless and faceless organization for the sole purpose of preserving an argument," that is what "the military" has always been. "The military" does not equal "the men/women of the military." They are two separate entities. You are just confusing issues and do not want to accept the fact that one can mock the organizations that are the military without mocking random soldiers in them. You can certainly mock the soldiers themselves, but you do not have to do so to mock the military.

[ January 09, 2004, 00:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

oleg

January 9th, 2004, 03:20 AM

Jura, yes, I made a mistake. I forgot to take a square root of 1000. That is 33 km you are so proud about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Still, I think the whole idea of our incrediable luck while millions and millions of other civilizations dying around us is absurd. It is dangerously close to the christian doctrine that humanity is the chosen breed because Christ was born here and not on Epsilon Eridani (just an example) and only we will be saved in the whole Universe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

January 9th, 2004, 03:25 AM

You can certainly mock the soldiers themselves, but you do not have to do so to mock the military.
or, in other words, stupid systems can have smart people and smart systems can have stupid people.

um, that comment doesn't change my spectater status. i made no comment on the validity of any statements made here, not because i don't have an opinion, but simply because this thread is to 'hot'.

[ January 09, 2004, 01:27: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Fyron

January 9th, 2004, 03:35 AM

You know what the best thing about the EU is? They love the US so much that they are trying to imitate it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Think about it... lots of independant states that all fall under one "nation," lacking national borders, one currency, separation of powers between the state governments and the overal national "government." The EU is just in phase 1 of the transition right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 09, 2004, 01:37: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

January 9th, 2004, 03:42 AM

You know what would be really bad for the UN? Kicking out the only world superpower. That is just a recipe for forcing a World War III down the road...

Phoenix-D

January 9th, 2004, 04:10 AM

Backing up to the math bits, I found a slight problem. Mainly, you're underestimating the effect of the atmosphere, which blocks most radiation. For reference, a single solar flare produces several million megatons for energy. Not all of it is in gamma, but the other wavelengths can be equally nasty if enough gets through.

About all that actually happens when a flare hits is some more impressive auroa.

EDIT the sun itself, meanwhile, produces around 10^9 of your hypothetical h-bombs per second. With aproximately the same radiation, since this is also nuclear fusion. It is also, of course, far closer than any gamma ray burst.

[ January 09, 2004, 02:20: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Baron Munchausen

January 9th, 2004, 05:09 AM

As it turns out, this argument over radiation intensity is misplaced. The full theory is that the gamma radiation from a supernova destroyed the ozone layer and allowed hard ultraviolet from our own sun to reach the surface.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/01/08/earth.extinction.ap/index.html

So you were on the right track comparing to the radiation from the sun... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Narrew

January 9th, 2004, 09:43 AM

JurijD

January 9th, 2004, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You know what the best thing about the EU is? They love the US so much that they are trying to imitate it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Think about it... lots of independant states that all fall under one "nation," lacking national borders, one currency, separation of powers between the state governments and the overal national "government." The EU is just in phase 1 of the transition right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Hehehe well it might seem so for an American who doesn't know whats really happening http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif There is no one "European" nation... and that is the core of the whole idea. We don't need one nation and one language to work together. Ergo one nation doesn't need to kill off all other "natives". We tried that in 2 world war recenty but it din't work out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And besides since we don't need to kill off everybody else we won't need to build those nasty reservations and getos in the cities... think off all the trouble we are avoiding http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Loser... I'm not talking about the Florida vote. I'm saying that it is incredible for a country such as yourself... that has ONE man theoretically in charge of everything... not to have a direct electoral system. Perhaps you misunderstood.

But in the Last election if you add up all the people who voted for Gore and compare them to all the poeple who voted for George W you get 63% for Gore and 37% for George W. (cross country not in any invdividual state).

But because those southern countries and some othes too have too many electoral votes based on their population and George W. happenes to have won in them .... he won the the federal vote when the majority of the total US population actually didn't vote for him.

I mean can u explain why you need to conduct elections in this silly way? Why should votes in one state mean more than in another. And you also need to count these votes in every state anyway... so why don't u just add them up and see who got the most all over the US... and not decide who won in each state and then assign these silly electoral votes to one or the other candidate. Doing it in this way can lead to silly results like u had now.

Historically it prolly made sense as the original colonies and some other more powerful states wanted to have more say in who gets to be the president... but today it just doesn't add up. Why should one vote in Florida mean more than one vite in say Kansas .. (just an example I don't really know what the Electoral_Vote/Total_population in those states are)

To give you another example of how odd this is: Lets say that your Congress didn't add all the votes up and compared them but instead of that gruped the politicians by the state they belong to and decided who voted for what in that "state" and then assign 1 vote for one or the other side based on who got the majority of the votes in that state-based-group. Doing it this way produces weird results... as some states have more population that others and if you only assing one vote for them you neglect that. But even if you give more votes based on their population they will still go just to one side and won't be spread evenly like the vote was...

In any case... why complicate things. Loser give me one logical example (besides that you "like it this way") why this is better that adding all votes and comparing them.

[ January 09, 2004, 09:37: Message edited by: JurijD ]

dogscoff

January 9th, 2004, 12:19 PM

*Dogscoff the Destroyer surveys the ring, ignoring the profuse bleeding from his ear. Most of the combatants have left the arena for a pint, but JurijD can still be seen, taunting the others to come back and fight. Dogscoff the Destroyer shrugs and smashes another chair over JurijD's back, then employs his trademark "nefarious nad-wrangle" technique and, once again, turns to flex for the crowd and discourse on the threads actual topic.

strip away ozone layer...sun strips away atmopsphere....
Sounds like that might be what happened to Mars. Water-moulded rock-formations there indicates that it once had a thicker, warmer atmosphere and apparently even now the remains of that atmosphere are being blown away by solar winds. Much of it gets caught by Jupiter, apparently.

narf poit chez BOOM

January 9th, 2004, 12:55 PM

Sounds like that might be what happened to Mars. Water-moulded rock-formations there indicates that it once had a thicker, warmer atmosphere and apparently even now the remains of that atmosphere are being blown away by solar winds. Much of it gets caught by Jupiter, apparently.
i thought it was just to light to hold an atmosphere???

Loser

January 9th, 2004, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by JurijD:
Loser... I'm not talking about the Florida vote. I'm saying that it is incredible for a country such as yourself... that has ONE man theoretically in charge of everything... not to have a direct electoral system. Perhaps you misunderstood.

But in the Last election if you add up all the people who voted for Gore and compare them to all the poeple who voted for George W you get 63% for Gore and 37% for George W. (cross country not in any invdividual state).Wrong on both counts, kiddo.

I don't feel like Dropping The Civics and explaining, again, how the U.S. Government works. I've posted before about the balance of power and how it really works, as opposed to how it sounds like it works when all you listen to are major news outlets (foreign or domestic), I don't care to do it again. It's not worth it this time.

I will say that there is an excessive amount of personalization in current politics, and this could lead some young or inexperienced people to believe that the country is run by one man. This is certainly not the case, not even when the President and the majority in Congress are from the same party.

On the numbers, you are simply mistaken. I do not care to say more because I am beginning to believe that you are not sincere in your argument. The internal personification of my own extensive personal experience in griefing is building a case, sorting through papers, and correlating data. He is handing me a thick report in a well organized binder and the summary reads thus:

"JurijD is a troll."

Now, this certainly may be incorrect. I'm just saying you look enough like a troll that I'm going to stop responding. Nothing personal, I just thought you might appreciate the honesty.

Perhaps another time...

[ January 09, 2004, 13:27: Message edited by: Loser ]

President_Elect_Shang

January 9th, 2004, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Those are rather crude and irrelevant definitions...Three words and one link baby:

Merriam-Webster Online

http://www.m-w.com/home.htm

Look it up yourself.

[ January 09, 2004, 14:39: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

tesco samoa

January 9th, 2004, 04:55 PM

I read that Last year. I recommend that book and the first one as well. THat always stuck in my head. And in university we talked about that time frame for the introduction to 20th century European History. Many people asked why until they where forced to connect the dots to ww2 with it.... Cause and couter effect history teaching is a very interesting way of teaching history. Also helps with remembering what the events were that lead up to the moment of crisis. It also helps explain why I spend all my money on history books. ( and the odd sci-fi fantasy book ) Right now I am reading the Guns of August ( upstairs ) and George R.R. Martin's A clash of kings ( downstairs )

President_Elect_Shang

January 9th, 2004, 05:27 PM

Tesco you are a History Major (?)! I am working on a Major in History and Minor in Anthropology. Any advice?

dogscoff

January 9th, 2004, 05:50 PM

I read that Last year.
The Merriam-Webster Online dictionary? What's wrong with a nice bit of scifi, or a detective thriller?

tesco samoa

January 9th, 2004, 05:58 PM

No. I was psychology with a minor in political science. Then I went back to school and studied Electronics. ( Oh and somewhere inbetween EMCA studies as well )

But I did take 3 history courses. and 2 anthropology courses.

I was going to go back and pick up an engineering degree.

But I think I want to get out of the corp world.

And with my love of history. I am thinking of taking History major and Geology Minor and fill out the anthropology electives to add it to my list.

Then as this dream plays out I would like to travel to battle grounds and write some new materials on the battles from a geological point of view.

But right now that is a dream.

Advice. Always make sure you read the course material before it is presented in class , that way classes are used for questions and answers. Attend the History and Anthropology Social events and get involved in the society. Take part in any field trips that are available that you can afford. Don't mix red with white wine on a boat.

History are you going to specialize or keep general. What is you goal with your studies.

It is an interesting combination. I do think some geology would really help round it all out. As the lay of the land itself is very important.

Fyron

January 9th, 2004, 06:15 PM

Hehehe well it might seem so for an American who doesn't know whats really happening There is no one "European" nation... and that is the core of the whole idea. We don't need one nation and one language to work together. Ergo one nation doesn't need to kill off all other "natives". We tried that in 2 world war recenty but it din't work out.Umm... thanks for stereotyping me. I know fully well what is going on over there. It was a joke...

Also, the EU will in all probability eventually fall apart in another bloody war in Europe. You can not deny the fundamental aspects of the human psyche.

And besides since we don't need to kill off everybody else we won't need to build those nasty reservations and getos in the cities... think off all the trouble we are avoiding Umm... there are plenty of ghettos in cities in Europe and all over the world... that has nothing to do with killing anyone off. Furthermore, US killed off fewer native American peoples than the Spanish did. The vast majority of them that died died because they had no immunity at all to a whole range of European diseases that they had never had any experience with. Certainly many were moved to other locations, but only rarely did that erupt into bloodshed. And you can hardly say that the US is alone in this sort of action. European nations have had done plenty of things far more evil than this throughout history (even recent history). I realize it is trendy to bash the US, but at least get your facts straight...

President_Elect_Shang

January 9th, 2004, 06:16 PM

I was going to get my degree in Psychology and after the move to Texas changed my mind back to History, I love the field although my wife has declared it a �Soft Degree�.

Why not mix the wine?

I would like to specialize in either the Hellenistic or the Roman �time frame�. But then I am sure you can appreciate the tie in. Don�t get me wrong I am not ignoring the Greek part of the picture. I have extra electives so I will most certainly look into the Geology aspect. I have decided to take an intro course to geology (by coincidence) this semester. You have a good point about that tie in, The Battle of Thermopylae.

Fyron

January 9th, 2004, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Those are rather crude and irrelevant definitions...Three words and one link baby:

Merriam-Webster Online

http://www.m-w.com/home.htm

Look it up yourself. <hr /></blockquote>Dictionary definitions are almost always lacking in their definitions of complex terms.

President_Elect_Shang

January 9th, 2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Dictionary definitions are almost always lacking in their definitions of complex terms. Sure, whatever you say, or convenient ones for that matter.

Fyron

January 9th, 2004, 06:38 PM

Its interesting that you completely ignored the post and just focused on the aside...

Perhaps you need to stop looking at the military from the bottom up, and look from it from the top down. You will then be able to see other points of view on this issue.

President_Elect_Shang

January 9th, 2004, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Its interesting that you completely ignored the post and just focused on the aside...

Perhaps you need to stop looking at the military from the bottom up, and look from it from the top down. You will then be able to see other points of view on this issue. Umm sure OK. It's amazing how you can pick and choose what you want. Can you define bottom up and top down, I don�t want to apply it differently than you. When I think of bottoms up I think of drinking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 09, 2004, 17:08: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

Fyron

January 9th, 2004, 08:25 PM

Ok... try to think of the military as the military, not as the faces of the soldiers themselves. The soldiers make up the forces of the military, but not the ideal of the military, nor the decisions of the military, nor the overall purpose and goals of the military, etc. Just looking at the specific people in the military is looking at it from the bottom (the people) up (the abstract nature). It is focusing not on the military itself, but on people. Looking from the top down is instead focusing on the military itself. It is directly akin to saying that the tech supporters and the programmers working for Microsoft are evil people because Microsoft has some evil business practices. The people working those jobs do not necessarily represent or embody what is done with their skills overall by the company (and its top level executives). It is looking at the issue from the wrong angle.

As for your definition of military, it is most certainly not the definitions on m-w.com.

1 a : of or relating to soldiers, arms, or war b : of or relating to armed forces; especially : of or relating to ground or sometimes ground and air forces as opposed to naval forces
2 a : performed or made by armed forces b : supported by armed force
3 : of or relating to the army Even from these partial definitions, it can be seen that "military" does not necessarily mean "the soldiers in the army."

President_Elect_Shang

January 9th, 2004, 09:09 PM

I think what you are referring to is called the Department of Defense. AKA: DoD, that would be more accurate I think. As for the other side of your explanation I served for 11 years, and now my wife serves. With that said, and using an analogy since you did. It would be similar (in an analogy sort of way) to asking me to think that dogs are really cats and cats are really dogs. But it goes even deeper than that, what you are asking me to do is divorce myself from over a decade of first hand experience to substitute the concept of DoD for the concept of the military. Substitute a disembodied organization for a group of men and women that I know, that I served with, that I call my friends. If I stretch my understanding than I can see the point of view you are coming from, but I am sure you can appreciate mine? I will not undo what I have learned, and honestly since I have more first person experience I feel that you should at least give a few minutes consideration to revising your terminology. Not to say that I am telling you that you need to or even that you must. No, that would way out of lines for my beliefs, I would never dream of imposing my will on another. But simply that it would not kill you to try a little. As for my part I agree to ask others to clarify whether they mean DoD or military (the men and women) before I offer my opinion.

President_Elect_Shang

January 10th, 2004, 12:43 AM

Bump for my buddy Fyron, who has posted elsewhere since mine, but must have just overlooked this thread.

Fyron

January 10th, 2004, 01:30 AM

Don't be so impatient. Those Posts took very little time to write and could be squeezed in between turns for various PBW games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

You do not have to classify "the military" as the Department of Defense (assuming you are talking about US military in particular) in order to still not have it be directly about the soldiers personally. Doing so certainly helps in some regards, but it is not necessary. "The military" does not equal "the soldiers" any more than "the government" equals employees of various agencies.

Now about cats and dogs... "the military" is "cats" and "the soldiers" are "dogs" (for purposes of reference to your post only, no real connection with either animal). Two separate entities that should not be confused.

Of course, there are some soldiers that deserve to be made fun of (such as Jessica Lynch), but that is another issue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I understood your point of view from the beginning. I have been trying to portray the other point of view (the less "sensational" one). If I did not understand your point of view, how could I hope to explain another to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

President_Elect_Shang

January 10th, 2004, 01:45 AM

It is very easy to debate a point without understanding the other persons point. I see where you are coming from with your Version of the cats and dogs analogy, but I sense that you missed mine. Mine was that a cat is a cat and a dog is a dog, nothing to do with soldiers or military, which is why it was an analogy. In my framework (of the cat and dog) you are asking me to reverse the names. I am very disheartened by what seems to be a lack of compromise on your point, and an attempt to prolong this debate so that you can avoid reaching a compromise. Do you agree to meet me half way or not Fyron?

tesco samoa

January 10th, 2004, 02:02 AM

JurijD I am not too sure about that. I think there is alot of truth in what Fryon stated about one nation in Europe. Germany tried it before using a military conquest. This time it is the corportations and governments attempting to do it in an economic conquest. I hope it happens. As a strong economic Europe is good for the world.

tesco samoa

January 10th, 2004, 02:07 AM

Funny I think European History would have been very different if Napoleon III had backed down from Prussia in 1870. France would not have lost Alsace-Lorraine. 2 world wars have been fought over the fall out of that event.

Narratio

January 10th, 2004, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Funny I think European History would have been very different if Napoleon III had backed down from Prussia in 1870. France would not have lost Alsace-Lorraine. 2 world wars have been fought over the fall out of that event. Been reading the second "What if" eh? A Good book I must say.

[ January 09, 2004, 12:22: Message edited by: Narratio ]

Fyron

January 10th, 2004, 02:26 AM

It is quite possible that we have reached a cultural impasse here with our terminology. The terminology is not so important, as the concept is. Call it what you wish, but just keep in mind that there are many people that mean the organiztions of the military rather than the specific soldiers in it when they use the term "the military."

President_Elect_Shang

January 10th, 2004, 04:27 AM

First I am not sure what you mean by cultural impasse, it just sounds to me that you are digging for a means to avoid saying yes or no to my question. Secondly if I am to assume that my speculation is correct than I can see that you are incapable of meeting me in such a simple request. Opinions are based upon the growth and learned experiences a person passes through in ones life. If you can not compromise than you can not grow or learn. It would have been very simple for you to have said:

You may have a point; I will take it into consideration.

Rob

January 14th, 2004, 10:22 PM

Grr.. seems I forgot my old login password and the system doesnt seem to have the correct e-mail address for me. Anyway.. I was mostly a lurker so it doesnt matter.. Im nobody anyone here would know anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As for election results.. Its one of my pet peeves when people spout off numbers with no backing documentation. So.. here are some numbers relevant to some of the um... arguments going on here.

Election 2000
Total cast votes: 105,405,100
Bush 50,456,002 votes, 47.87%
Gore 50,999,897 votes, 48.38%

Total Electoral Vote = 538
Total Electoral Vote Needed to Elect = 270
Bush 271
Gore 266

Sources
Official 2000 Presidential Election Results (http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm)
CNN 2000 Presidential Election Results (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results/)

So, Yes, Gore won the popular vote by 543,895 votes. That was 0.51% of the votes cast which falls well within the margin of error for the voting machines used throughout most of the US.

The reality is that the election was so evenly split that neither Bush nor Gore could claim a clear victory in the popular vote. This split was mirrored in the state of Florida where the final results for Election 2000 were determined. Both political parties pulled out all the stops to manipulate the vote counts in that state. It so happens that the LAW and voting standards agreed on BEFORE the election started were upheld in the state, giving Bush the edge necessary to win. It was the right decision to make at the time even if the voting standards were not optimal. To do otherwise would be to invite chaos. Hopefully, the problematic standards experienced in Florida in 2000 have been rectified for the next election.

Now, moving on to the so called "Extinction" and "Slaughter" of the Natives by "Americans". I happen to BE one of those Natives.. or at least a decendent of one. My mother is Cherokee and we are both very much alive and well. I also happen to be Greek by ancestory as well. I will admit that the traditional culture of my Native American ancestors is not practiced much anymore due to being absorbed into the "European" culture of my OTHER ancestors. All of which has evolved into a new culture that the rest of the world calls "American".

And finaly, on the topic of the military and morons, I have a comment. The popular concept of a military full of morons is rather.. well.. moronic in itself. To make the assertion that the only people who re-enlist in the military are people of lesser intelligence is incorrect. The people who re-enlist are simply the people who have found that the military lifestyle suits them. It says NOTHING about their level of intelligence. The same incorrect assumptions are made about Sports Stars. It is automaticaly assumed that talent at playing football (or any other physical sport) means the person is intellectualy challenged. As if playing sports is a less desirable job, only suitable for people unable to learn to do a more usefull job.. like software engineering.

I guess what I am saying is that choosing a Military lifestyle does NOT make the person "Stupid." The reason some people think that it IS stupid is pretty simple to figure out realy. Humans have a tendency to think that anyone who thinks differently than they do, must be stupid. Therefore, those people who think that the military is a bad choice of career (those who serve one tour of duty) conclude that people who think otherwise (Lifers in Military Speak) MUST be stupid.

Rob

Puke

January 16th, 2004, 11:32 AM

Yep. It was a close election because of apathy and dissalusionment. no one cared who won, and it was reflected in the national culture and in the polls. hardly any sense in arguing about it now.

And yes, people already chased themselves in circles just to decide that no one actually had anything against the military, nor thought that all re-enlistees were dumb. We dont actually think that all people working in an office are from Dilbert comic strips, and not all career academics are directionless and without practical value to society.

but some generalizations are ammusing to joke about. like dilbert comic strips, and military inteligence, and hippies from berkeley.

As you say, someone's long term career choice is more of a reflection of what fits their personality and desired style of living, than anything else. There used to be a popular generalization that those who were unfit for any other kind of work, became teachers. Certainly there are some poor teachers out there, but most of them have chosen that role because it fits their personality and their lifes goals.

As for being Greek, you have my condolences regarding the Eastern Roman Empire. They really had a good thing going, and I'm sorry it didnt Last. Unless, of course, you consider your heritage to predate the Levant and stem from the Greek city states of antiquity, in which case my sentiments have been wasted. But if it helps, you have my condolences about them too, as they also had a good thing going.

I myself have no heritage to speak of, and am a sorry example of random breeding.

narf poit chez BOOM

January 16th, 2004, 12:17 PM

I myself have no heritage to speak of, and am a sorry example of random breeding.
hey, i can make jokes about eight, maybe ten different nationalities! random breeding is fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 16, 2004, 10:17: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

primitive

January 16th, 2004, 12:32 PM

Puke;
Better be careful with postings like that. Keep it up and you will ruin any cred you have as an obnoxious wiseass http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

AMF

January 18th, 2004, 02:41 AM

This topic started out talking about "Galactic Sterilisation" as a scientific hypothesis based on some astronomical observations.

I want to briefly interrupt to bring it back to that and suggest a PBW game based on it.

My purpose in posting the following game idea and settings is to see if there is sufficient interest in the game described below. If so, I will get to work on making it happen. Let me know if you would play such a game as described below.

-------------
Backstory for Zeta Quadrant Game:

Your people expanded into your galaxy for over a hundred years, and created an interstellar empire. In that time, your archaeologists and scientists occasionally found ruins of some long extinct ancient and powerful civilization. Some of these sites dated from billions of years ago, some as ?recent? as a few hundred thousand years old. And some of the sites were guarded with Machine Entities left behind by the ancients, as protectors.

As your race expanded into the galaxy, your scientists made an alarming and incontrovertible discovery: the galaxy is doomed. Your space telescopes confirmed that giant black holes were forming at the center of your galaxy. These doomed your civilization, for just before their formation, these black holes released a huge shockwave of Gamma radiation that overwhelmed the galaxy in so much energy that no life in your empire escaped. Your scientists also discovered evidence that indicated that this has been occurring almost regularly every billion years or so.

But, it was clear that at least one race survived this tragedy in the past: the Ancients. Your scientists speculated that only through the creation of a giant sphereworld (to provide a safe haven behind millions of miles of dense armour shielding) could any race survive these periodic galactic sterilizations. That must be how the Ancients did it.

That became the Last best hope of your people: to find a Sphereworld of the Ancients in which you could obtain a haven inside to survive the radiation shockwave. And, over the years, as the shockwave approached, your space telescopes and instruments did detect, in a far off and isolated quadrant of the galaxy, readings that can only be indicative of just such a sphereworld.

A massive expedition was launched under your command, in which giant colony ships carried billions of your people to the distant Zeta quadrant. The trip took hundreds of years, as there were no warp points to the quadrant. But the survival of the race was your goal, and cryo chambers are wonderful things. Behind you, the advancing shockwave destroyed all those left behind. The Galaxy was laid waste and the shockwave continues to expand, and will soon encompass the Zeta Quadrant as well. Time is not your ally.

As your colony ships approached the Zeta Quadrant, your frozen crew members were awoken, and massive colonies were established to begin the detailed search for the Sphereworld and your race?s survival. The advancing shockwave from the core of the Galaxy will reach the Zeta Quadrant in about 45 years, lending a keen sense of urgency to your efforts.

The strange properties of the Zeta quadrant that prevented warp holes to connect to it, also tragically prevent your current deep space arrays from zeroing in on the exact location of the Sphereworld you seek. But, your ships? recording systems did notice a danger: you are not alone. Other races have come to the same conclusion and also arrived in the Zeta Quadrant. Furthermore, there is evidence that your arrival in the Zeta Quadrant has awoken some of the Ancient?s Machine Entities, doubtless to protect the Sphereworld.

The Zeta Quadrant, the Last remaining habitable portion of the Galaxy, will be sterilized in 45 years. The only ones who will survive will be those in the Sphereworld...which is somewhere in Zeta Quadrant.

Settings

Game ends on turn 450, unless there is an agreed upon end before that (I see that as more likely). The only winner will be those living in the Sphereworld at that time. This Sphereworld is located somewhere in the map. There may or may not be other weird things going on in this map, for it is an anomalous section of the galaxy. Lastly, there is the Machine Entity Race. They are the product of seedings by the Ancients, left behind to grow and evolve and dedicated to protecting Ancient sites. Your scientists presume that the Machine Entities are the Protectors of the Sphereworld. This means that, while they will not enter the Sphereworld, they will do everything possible to defend it and destroy invaders. And they are gifted with knowledge of the Zeta Quadrant, unlike yourselves, who are all new to it.

House Rules

Communication should be limited to in-game methods to represent the difficulty inherent in communicating with aliens as well as to simulate time delays and their effect in coordination also.

Role Playing is not essential, but it is appreciated.

Game Settings: The peculiar characteristics of the Zeta Quadrant lead to the following settings:

� No mines or fighters (as the background energies and radiations make smaller craft such as these non-viable)
� No Ancient Race Characteristic (you?re all new here!) The ONLY exception to this is the Machine Entities, which will have the ancient race trait. (I, the game host, will be playing these guys, since I want to play in this game, but I made the map, so I need to have the Ancient Race trait to account for the fact that I will know that map)
� No Stellar Manipulation (the Zeta quadrant?s background energies and the effects of Ancient technologies prevent such technologies from having any effect)
� Starting tech: Medium, tech cost: high
� No surrender (Hey, the fate of your race is at stake!)
� No tech trades, but ship trading is allowed.
� Intel will be OFF (since this is a fight for the total survival of your race, your people are far too wary and patriotic to consider selling secrets or letting aliens sabotage their race)
� Map is Large, and Unique.
� Max of 20 players.
� Turns will be Automatic every 36 hours (to make the game run quickly)
� Standard SEIV Gold (1.84)
� Races: 5000 points. (no Ancient Race trait allowed)

[ January 18, 2004, 18:12: Message edited by: alarikf ]