OT Do you care were the products you buy are made [Archive]

DavidG

January 14th, 2004, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by Narrew:
true for the short run, but some jobs are customer service where we Americans will get to the point of not putting up with talking to people they can not understand or has such a low knowledge of what they are talking about, people will go elsewhere.

A subsidary of BristolMyer made orthopedic implants, they move machinery to Costa Rica for the lower cost for workers, BUT they did not have the ability to run the computer controlled machines so it was a year or so later that all the machines came back.
Of course you are talking about high tech companies selling specialized equipment to other professionals. It probably doesn't apply so much to the Chinese Co making pLastic dog crap

I wonder if people even think about where something is made when they find it is crap. ie I've had 2 fairly new HP printers crap out on me lately. I never really thought about were they were made till now. I just looked on the bottom. - made in China. Hmm my busted scanner is made in China too. Of course all that means is there are pLastic parts in it. Around here if it's got any pLastic in it chances are it's made in China

DavidG

January 14th, 2004, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Your fisheries might have closed down because they were exhausted (too few fish), not because there was a lack of demand, DavidG. Where do you think the Chinese are getting fish from? Can't our boats go there?

[ January 14, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Phoenix-D

January 14th, 2004, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
[QUOTE]Where do you think the Chinese are getting fish from? Can't our boats go there? If they're inside Chinese territorial waters, no. Notice you also said east coast fisheries- having to go down to Panama THEN cross to where the Chinease fishermen are fishing isn't going to be profitable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

gregebowman

January 14th, 2004, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
There is a lot of cheap stuff made in Taiwan, Korea and Japan sold in the US (at least around southern California). Not as much comes from China that I have noticed though. Although, I could really care less where stuff was made (as long as it works well, and is not shoddy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). After spending a year in Korea, and seeing a Goldstar repair truck coming to the base every week, I don't buy any Korean electronic products. And that's been almost 16 years now. If it weren't for the fact that if I didn't buy anything made in China, my kid would have no toys at all, then I wouldn't buy stuff made in China. I don't know about the rest of the world, but it seems that America is spending a huge amount of cash to put into China's coffers, and I doubt very much that it goes to the people. We may be financing China's military, and that will come back to bite us eventually. So that's why I'm leary of anything that says "Made in China". Unfortunatley, there aren't too many alternatives if you don't want to spend a lot of money.

TerranC

January 14th, 2004, 06:11 AM

After spending a year in Korea, and seeing a Goldstar repair truck coming to the base every week, I don't buy any Korean electronic products.

They have improved with time you know.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but it seems that America is spending a huge amount of cash to put into China's coffers, and I doubt very much that it goes to the people. We may be financing China's military, and that will come back to bite us eventually. So that's why I'm leary of anything that says "Made in China". Unfortunatley, there aren't too many alternatives if you don't want to spend a lot of money.

You ARE financing china's military. No doubt about it; the communist party's having a field day with all this newfound money. I think they bought a couple of new subs with the capital too.

[ January 14, 2004, 04:11: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Baron Grazic

January 14th, 2004, 06:29 AM

I buy "Australian owned" and "Made in Australia" when I can, but only if the product is of a quality and price equal to or better then the alternative.

The thing that ticks me off, is we supply raw metal to Asia, then they turn it in car parts and ship them back and the cars are assembeled here and they give the impression that the Cars are "Made in Australia".

Mind you, being a stock holder in some Australian companies, as long as they give me a good return on my money, I don't care how the company is run.

rextorres

January 14th, 2004, 07:02 AM

I make a point of not buying anything made in China or a third world country unless I don't have a choice.

Ruatha

January 14th, 2004, 07:08 AM

I try to buy as much local as possible, mostly food from the local region, vegetables and meat and such, hard to buy local bananas and oranges in Sweden though!

If clothes and stuff are made in Sweden, the scandinavia, balticum , europe or africa I try to choose those first, in that order, mainly as to minimize transports but also other reasons.

I have nothing against goods made in USA/Canada/China/India or wherever.

Somehow I tend to mentally kind of prefer the nordic culture, diverse as it is (Scandinavia, parts of Russia and Canada), this sometimes influences me when I buy stuff, but not often.

(Edit: Rextorres > I try to buy stuff from third world countries if I have the choice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ,and if am feeling more political than enviromental that day!. )

And when it comes to wine I prefer german wine, becouse of the taste, but I buy good french wine too.

[ January 14, 2004, 05:14: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Narrew

January 14th, 2004, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
prefer the nordic culture, diverse as it is (Scandinavia, parts of Russia and Canada), I hope not French Canada hehe, J/K everyone, well if I had to vote which part of Canada could be part of the US, I would take the western half, sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

rextorres

January 14th, 2004, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Narrew:
Like Fyron said, as long as it works and is not shoddy, I don't worry about it, I would think twice if was French made, but I don't drink wine and thats all I can think of that they sell that I would buy (yes, my reason is political, but thats just me).

As far as everything from China *sigh*, thats the way it seems, I notice alot of JOBs going to India, nothing against India or any other country, but I wonder how long companis will do that till they smarten up and pull those jobs back here? I think from political stand point China is a lot more noxious than France.

I understand why some people don't like France - but China was right behind it on the Iraq issue -France just took the lead.

France doesn't let it's corporations run defacto work camps and dump untreated toxic waste into the environment. Not to mention that China is an authoritarian regime.

Anyway all those jobs lost are never coming back until American workers are willing to live in the same conditions that workers of third world countries live OR we force any corporation that sells in the U.S. to provide their workers with the same wages and follow the same environmental laws that we expect them to have here.

Ruatha

January 14th, 2004, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by rextorres:
I think from political stand point China is a lot more noxious than France.

I understand why some people don't like France - but China was right behind it on the Iraq issue -France just took the lead.

France doesn't let it's corporations run defacto work camps and dump untreated toxic waste into the environment. Not to mention that China is an authoritarian regime.

Anyway all those jobs lost are never coming back until American workers are willing to live in the same conditions that workers of third world countries live OR we force any corporation that sells in the U.S. to provide their workers with the same wages and follow the same environmental laws that we expect them to have here. They can come back the day when third world countries have the same standard as the I-world nations..
Last year 30% of the worlds population took the step up from poverty, 17.7 billions now have the same living standard as the "west".

narf poit chez BOOM

January 14th, 2004, 07:38 AM

raising the standard of living world-wide and introducing democracy will benifit the world.

Kamog

January 14th, 2004, 07:55 AM

Last year 30% of the worlds population took the step up from poverty, 17.7 billions now have the same living standard as the "west".
17.7 billion doesn't sound right because that's more than the population of the whole world.

Fyron

January 14th, 2004, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
raising the standard of living world-wide and introducing democracy will benifit the world. So apparently you agree with the Bush Jr. adminstration's current reasons for the Iraq war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

January 14th, 2004, 09:22 AM

reason's? sort of. methods? not really. results? debatable.

Puke

January 14th, 2004, 09:26 AM

quality and craftsmanship. while politics amuse me, and i certainly have my share of views on them, i dont let them effect my day-to-day life. which is probably why my world view disgusts so many people.

but back to quality and craftsmanship, there are some regional and national determinations for that. Asia tends to have crap for metal. Some good craftsmen and companies to buy tools from, but you better do your research and make sure that their metal is imported.

A handfull of European countries produce fine clothing. Lots of places produce quality and durable casual-wear, but i sure as heck wouldn't buy suits from "lots of places."

All told, im a big supporter of the global economy. it has its down sides, but I like it both as an idea, and in practice (realizing full well its a very different animal in theory and in practice [assuming that you take theory to equal propoganda, it could be argued that theory and practice are actually identical])

what i REALLY hate, are people who use nested parenthetical statements in forum Posts. jackasses.

dogscoff

January 14th, 2004, 09:37 AM

I tend to boycott companies rather than countries- for example, I won't shop at Asda (Walmart-owned) or buy Nestle products or get petrol from Shell. I don't touch Mcdonald's any more, and if I did smoke I'd have real trouble finding someone I was prepared to buy tobacco from. It's kind of haphazard since I don't go and inform myself on every single supplier's ethical history, so I'm probably taking money away from one bastard corporation and just feeding it into another, but it gives me that lovely smug feeling and where possible I do aim for companies that go out of their way to be good.

I always buy free range and biodegradable, and I do like to go for locally produced stuff (especially food) for environmental reasons, but then at the same time I'm also kind of rebelling against the blind stupidity of "Buy British Beef", so I'll sometimes buy foriegn meat just to be awkward. People here seem to think that British meat must be BSE free because... well... because it has our flag stamped on the packet. Morons. The BSE outbreak here was handled extremely badly, and seemed to rely on rallying patriotism rather than, say, getting rid of the disease. I hope you yanks deal with it better than we did. We're now looking at yet another food scare with salmon and- guess what- it all stems from the fact that these animals are being fed ground-up offal from members of their own species. When we we learn that forcing cannibalism on these creatures might cut costs but in the long run it isn't doing anyone any favours?

I'd like to boycott US products until GWB is out of office because of the Iraq war, but if I did that I'd have to boycott UK products until Blair was out of office as well, but since I live in the UK that would be difficult. That said I never buy american beer but that's only because it's crap.

[ January 14, 2004, 07:38: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Puke

January 14th, 2004, 10:04 AM

carefull about sweeping generalizations there. There are some very good beers brewed here, though probably not the sort that are likely to be sold on your side of the pond.

Try looking for imported micro-brews, or check out some brew pubs the next time you go traveling.

General Woundwort

January 14th, 2004, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by rextorres:
I think from political stand point China is a lot more noxious than France. Not to mention rumors I've heard of the Chinese using political/criminal prisoners as slave labor in their factories. I'm getting to be really wary (not to mention weary) of all the things I see labeled "Made in China" in the stores. But there's so damn much of the stuff it's getting difficult to avoid.

Sadly Ironic Case in Point - I got a mug from a friend of mine as a gift. Typical post-9/11 stuff - American flag on the background, large script lettering "God Bless America". The label on the bottom? "Made in China". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

January 14th, 2004, 10:47 AM

china is clearly the next big threat. 'when china wakes up, the world will tremble' - Napoleon.

primitive

January 14th, 2004, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
Not to mention rumors I've heard of the Chinese using political/criminal prisoners as slave labor in their factories. I'm getting to be really wary (not to mention weary) of all the things I see labeled "Made in China" in the stores. But there's so damn much of the stuff it's getting difficult to avoid.Just a little comment General W.
The work system of many American penal facilities is also labelled as Slave labour by many human rights organisations.

Growltigger

January 14th, 2004, 11:32 AM

I feel quite strongly on this, and I admit, take a similar stance to Dogscoff.

I boycott companies. I do not shop at several supermarkets which are either owned by companies which have policies I disagree with, or are particularily notorious for giving farmers a poor deal. I do not buy Proctor & Gamble products (they test non-medecines on animals) or Nike/Adidias products (slave labour in Eastern bloc/Asian countries), I do not eat at McDonalds, I do not buy petrol from Shell or Texaco, the list goes on. I boycott a company once I become aware (and I do read the FT and Times every day) that it has unethical policies.

I am a bit of a hypocrite here though because I smoke (although I currently trying to give up)

That being said, I tend to gravitate toward products from countries which I feel are well made. For example, my cars are diesel (low sulphur of course) but are both German (except for my old land rover). My household appliances, from the iron to the fridge, are all German (Bosch and Neff). I buy these due to reliability, and that post-WWII, the german companies have done more than most to introduce to decent practices in their factories, following on from the slave labour accusations justifiably made from WWII.

In relation to food, I buy local products. I always buy organic meat (not just free range, but organic). I buy organic vegetables, I buy organic wheat, and make my own bread (only way to get my nails really clean). I recycle pLastic bottles, tin cans, glass and has the famous compost heap which devours all vegetable waste from the kitchen. I dont buy food products grown in countries I have an ethical problem with.

Buying organic may not avoid all the BSE problems we have had in UK, but it does obviate part of the risk as the organic certification I buy require the herds to have been BSE free at all times.

BUT organic meat tastes better to me. It certainly has a better texture. I am slightly hypocritical here to cos I do go shooting pheasants. But I do always take away and eat what I shoot

I also bank with an ethical bank here in the UK, and my pension funds are invested in what I consider to be ethical investments. I do not invest in arms, tobacco or anything like that. Took bloody ages to sort out, but I feel better for doing that!

I do boycott US products, but primarily as I think the food produce is inferior (american cheese? YUKKK) and the beer has obviously been recycled - must be pure though after passing through so many kidneys before mine!!! I dont really buy electronic goods but those I have are made in Germany or Holland. I check place of manufacture of these quite carefully.

narf poit chez BOOM

January 14th, 2004, 11:41 AM

Just a little comment General W.
The work system of many American penal facilities is also labelled as Slave labour by many human rights organisations.
sitting around uselessly in a dark, closed in, small area doing repetitive things is not good for a person.

anyone else see the irony? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

if you read the bible, ancient Isreal had some good laws for theives. basically, the theif would have to pay off twice what they stole. with no theives in prison, we could shut down jails.

[ January 14, 2004, 11:11: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

tesco samoa

January 14th, 2004, 01:30 PM

I too do as the little tiger and the dog do.

I boycott certain companies..

Nike, Gap, Shell , Mcdonalds, Coke... etc...

I know I cannot boycott every clothing company that uses the industrial complexs all over the world. So I just pick and choose. And I stick to it.

I have never owned anything by Nike. Never given shell any of my money. Same with Gap and its stores. Mcdonalds. Going on 12 years now. Coke products 8 years.

I do like a world economy from the little I understand. But it is one of those situations where if your lucky you can look at it from the top, middle ( my location lower middle) and the bottom.

Problem is most of the material i read comes from the top and supports the top.

Not balanced and I am not sorry to say this. It is very complex And there are many many sides to the picture.

dogscoff

January 14th, 2004, 01:30 PM

basically, the theif would have to pay off twice what they stole.
So in order to pay the fine they'd have to steal two more of the same thing from someone else? I see a problem here...

Ruatha

January 14th, 2004, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Kamog:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Last year 30% of the worlds population took the step up from poverty, 17.7 billions now have the same living standard as the "west".
17.7 billion doesn't sound right because that's more than the population of the whole world. <hr /></blockquote>oops, Yes, I did exaggerate a bit; 1.7 billion!
(keyboard entering error)

Wardad

January 14th, 2004, 03:39 PM

Globalization

International Thinking At Its Best!

Question: What is the truest definition of Globalization?

Answer: Princess Diana's death.

Question: How come?

Answer:

An English princess

with an Egyptian boyfriend

crashes in a French tunnel,

driving a German car

with a Dutch engine,

driven by a Belgian who was drunk

on Scottish whisky (check the bottle before you change the spelling)

followed closely by Italian Paparazzi,

on Japanese motorcycles;

treated by an American doctor,

using Brazilian medicines.

This is sent to you by an American,

using Bill Gates's technology,

and you're probably reading this on your computer,

that uses Taiwanese chips,

and a Korean monitor,

assembled by Bangladeshi workers

in a Singapore plant,

transported by Indian truck drivers,

hijacked by Indonesians,

unloaded by Sicilian longshoremen,

and trucked to you by Mexican illegals.....

That, my friends, is Globalization.

DavidG

January 14th, 2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DavidG:
[QUOTE]Where do you think the Chinese are getting fish from? Can't our boats go there? If they're inside Chinese territorial waters, no. Notice you also said east coast fisheries- having to go down to Panama THEN cross to where the Chinease fishermen are fishing isn't going to be profitable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Yea you're probably right. But why China? If I want to eat many kinds of fish I basically have to buy Chinese. Seems wacky. Of course my beef probably has more to do the BS involved in actually getting products on the shelf in grocery stores. there must be other countries exporting fish but they are not making it to my neck of the woods.

primitive

January 14th, 2004, 03:55 PM

If it�s white fish it�s usually Russian, and only sent to China for processing.

The Russians are now doing the same ****ty stuff in Northern Pacific as you crazy Canucks did outside Newfoundland 15 years ago: Fishing the ocean dry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Enjoy the cheap Russian/Chinese fish when it�s available. In a few years it will be over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Wardad

January 14th, 2004, 03:55 PM

I can remember the "Be American, Buy American" sloga and campaign. It was well intended.

Since u would expect to pay more, a lot of companies were busy changing labels. WalMart got caught "washing" clothes from from China.

DavidG

January 14th, 2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by primitive:
The Russians are now doing the same ****ty stuff in Northern Pacific as you crazy Canucks did outside Newfoundland 15 years ago: Fishing the ocean dry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Who us? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif (I'm pretty sure that was all those evil foriegn ships fishing just beyond the limit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

dogscoff

January 14th, 2004, 05:57 PM

If I want to eat many kinds of fish I basically have to buy Chinese
Or go fishing...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Atrocities

January 14th, 2004, 06:12 PM

Most made in America stuff is actually made in China now with a Made in America stick on it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

The government should empose heavy scantions on anything imported from a comunist country as most of the labor is slave or prison, and there price under mines the prices of simular products sold in the USA, that are actually made in the USA, causing USA companies to lay off workers and close their doors.

Just look to the Semi - Conductor market for more proof on that one.

primitive

January 14th, 2004, 06:28 PM

Atrocities;
From dictionary.com http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Most
adj. Superlative of many., much
1a. Greatest in number: won the most votes.
1b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion.
2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.

n.
1. The greatest amount or degree: She has the most to gain.
2. Slang. The greatest, best, or most exciting. Used with the: That party was the most!

pron.
(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The greatest part or number: Most of the town was destroyed. Most of the books were missing.

DavidG

January 14th, 2004, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
If I want to eat many kinds of fish I basically have to buy Chinese
Or go fishing...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>WTF? You can catch fish this way? I thought fishing was just an excuse to get away from the wife and stand around at the edge of the lake drinking beer with the boys.

Fyron

January 14th, 2004, 06:49 PM

China is not a communist country! They do not have a command economy, they have a more or less free market. They are just an authoritarian military dictatorship. They were never really communists (of the Soviet sort) to begin with, and Kissinger under Nixon getting them to sign a free trade agreement with the US in the 60s showed that they never really cared for the communist ideals.

Narrew

January 14th, 2004, 10:05 PM

Wardad, loved the "International Thinking At Its Best!"

narf poit chez BOOM

January 14th, 2004, 10:10 PM

So in order to pay the fine they'd have to steal two more of the same thing from someone else? I see a problem here...
well, if they can't pay, they can work it off. and i don't particurlarly care if some over-sensitive PC person thinks it's slavery. yeah, sure it is. but it would fit the crime. if you steal, you pay. if you can't pay, you make money and the money goes to paying off the costs of your room, food and debt.

Renegade 13

January 15th, 2004, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Narrew:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ruatha:
prefer the nordic culture, diverse as it is (Scandinavia, parts of Russia and Canada), I hope not French Canada hehe, J/K everyone, well if I had to vote which part of Canada could be part of the US, I would take the western half, sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>Well, speaking for the Western half of Canada, we dont' really want to join America any time soon. Yep, no wars suits me just fine. Hardly any national enemies.... ya that's good too. And everyone loves Canadians!!

Growltigger

January 15th, 2004, 02:36 AM

Agree with you Scoffo but what a pleasant solution it would be if it could be applied to corporate misfeasance by their directors.

You say to the head of Parmalat, "hey, you have siphoned off billions of euros from your company, so what we are going to do is not stick you in prison, but liquidate absolutely all of your assets, reclaim the "borrowed" cash and apply that to shareholders".

Rubber knickers for all dodgy CEOs and FDs I feel!!

Back to reality, I think all you can do is to try and make an informed decision based on the information which is freely available. I have found (for example Proctor & Gamble) that I was purchasing their products before ages, before I read a report about the animal testing. I immediately stopped, and triple check all cleaning products I know buy to make sure.

I think the big difference we can all make is to ensure that we recycle as much as we can. This helps the planet.

For our health, I am a firm advocate of organic produce - the more we eat, the cheaper it will become, and certainly in relation to the meat, the better it is for us.

Try growing your own!! I grow herbs on industrial lines, and make about 3 litres of fresh pesto a year. Tastes the best, and I know that the only thing that might has "soiled" my basil crop is the cats rubbing their backsides over it!!

narf poit chez BOOM

January 15th, 2004, 03:37 AM

Well, speaking for the Western half of Canada, we dont' really want to join America any time soon. Yep, no wars suits me just fine. Hardly any national enemies.... ya that's good too. And everyone loves Canadians!!
on the other hand, CONSTANTLY GETTING IGNORED BY OTTAWA gets annoying.

Renegade 13

January 15th, 2004, 04:19 AM

Ah, I see you have a grasp of how Canadian politics works. And you obviously also live in Western Canada. I'd guess either Alberta or BC.

Atrocities

January 15th, 2004, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by primitive:
Atrocities;
From dictionary.com http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Most
adj. Superlative of many., much
1a. Greatest in number: won the most votes.
1b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion.
2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.

n.
1. The greatest amount or degree: She has the most to gain.
2. Slang. The greatest, best, or most exciting. Used with the: That party was the most!

pron.
(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The greatest part or number: Most of the town was destroyed. Most of the books were missing. Ok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Fyron

January 15th, 2004, 04:38 AM

AT did not use "most" incorrectly... he proabably should have put some parenthesis around "made in America," but that has nothing to do with most.

TerranC

January 15th, 2004, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
on the other hand, CONSTANTLY GETTING IGNORED BY OTTAWA gets annoying. Constantly getting ignored by ottawa is one thing; having to live with downright inefficient federal laws and getting your coffers filfered by it is another.

TerranC

January 15th, 2004, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
The government should empose heavy scantions on anything imported from a comunist country as most of the labor is slave or prison, and there price under mines the prices of simular products sold in the USA, that are actually made in the USA, causing USA companies to lay off workers and close their doors.

Just look to the Semi - Conductor market for more proof on that one. Sanctions don't really do anything you know; when there's a will to make money, there is ALWAYS a way.

Paul1980au

January 15th, 2004, 05:35 AM

Sanctions by the US on chinesse goods would be bad for world trade and could lead to bigger trade blocks - with world trade up this year well it would hurt global economic recovery.

In the SEIV id like to see exchange of resources on a treaty type basis ie i have suprlus of organics of 10K per turn you have 10K excess minerals lets swap for x amount of turns or only broken if the other party cant supply. This could be an alternative to trade.

Kamog

January 15th, 2004, 07:05 AM

I thought fishing was just an excuse to get away from the wife and stand around at the edge of the lake drinking beer with the boys.Yup, I think you're right! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I wonder what the minimum portion of the manufacturing process has to happen in America in order for the seller to be allowed to put a "made in America" sticker on it? What if they produced the entire jacket in China, shipped it to America, and then they sewed the zipper on? Can they claim that it's made in America?

narf poit chez BOOM

January 15th, 2004, 07:11 AM

Ah, I see you have a grasp of how Canadian politics works. And you obviously also live in Western Canada. I'd guess either Alberta or BC.
it's raining outside. guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

January 15th, 2004, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
I wonder what the minimum portion of the manufacturing process has to happen in America in order for the seller to be allowed to put a "made in America" sticker on it? What if they produced the entire jacket in China, shipped it to America, and then they sewed the zipper on? Can they claim that it's made in America? I don't know that there are any laws really covering that, other than possible laws against false advertising...

Renegade 13

January 15th, 2004, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Ah, I see you have a grasp of how Canadian politics works. And you obviously also live in Western Canada. I'd guess either Alberta or BC.
it's raining outside. guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>Ok, that sounds like Vancouver then.

gregebowman

January 15th, 2004, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by TerranC:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Atrocities:
The government should empose heavy scantions on anything imported from a comunist country as most of the labor is slave or prison, and there price under mines the prices of simular products sold in the USA, that are actually made in the USA, causing USA companies to lay off workers and close their doors.

Just look to the Semi - Conductor market for more proof on that one. Sanctions don't really do anything you know; when there's a will to make money, there is ALWAYS a way. <hr /></blockquote>It doesn't help when American companies have these unions who are demanding sky-high wages, and won't back down. No wonder a lot of American products costs so much; they have to provide the money for those wages. I for one don't believe we no longer need unions. Between federal laws and OSHA, all of the original concerns 100 years ago that forced unions to be created no longer exist. I believe unions are now just an extenion of organized crime, and only exist now to finance the mob. We get rid of the unions, maybe increase our minimum wage rate by a $1.00 or so, and maybe American prices will come down so they can be competitive to foreign products.

Loser

January 15th, 2004, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Narrew:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ruatha:
prefer the nordic culture, diverse as it is (Scandinavia, parts of Russia and Canada), I hope not French Canada hehe, J/K everyone, well if I had to vote which part of Canada could be part of the US, I would take the western half, sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>Well, speaking for the Western half of Canada, we dont' really want to join America any time soon. Yep, no wars suits me just fine. Hardly any national enemies.... ya that's good too. And everyone loves Canadians!! <hr /></blockquote>No you don't really want it, you just bring it up whenever Ottawa isn't sufficiently attentive.

I've got a chick-friend like this. When she's not getting enough attention from her fellow she starts flirting with me, in fun. Like Western Canada we keep it strictly verbal and above-the-table. But apparently it works, and his jealousy gets her what she wants out of the situation. And despite his occasional threats on my life, we're pretty good friends.

geoschmo

January 15th, 2004, 05:23 PM

As long as Western Canada doesn't ever shout out "Oh Washington" when she's maiking love to Ottowa. That would be really akward, and could have serious ramifications for our Free Trade agreement. Not to mention Ottowa might get a complex and have trouble keeping Newfoundland above the artic circle.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

January 15th, 2004, 07:52 PM

Keep in mind that increasing minimum wage always leads to some people losing their jobs and to inflation. It is a fine balancing act, not to be tread lightly.

rextorres

January 15th, 2004, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by gregebowman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TerranC:
It doesn't help when American companies have these unions who are demanding sky-high wages, and won't back down. No wonder a lot of American products costs so much; they have to provide the money for those wages. I for one don't believe we no longer need unions. Between federal laws and OSHA, all of the original concerns 100 years ago that forced unions to be created no longer exist. I believe unions are now just an extenion of organized crime, and only exist now to finance the mob. We get rid of the unions, maybe increase our minimum wage rate by a $1.00 or so, and maybe American prices will come down so they can be competitive to foreign products. Actually it's not that American products cost too much it's that Chinese goods et.al are allowed to get away with working conditions and practices that I am sure most or you would not want for this country.

I would imagine most U.S. citizens wouldn't work in the conditions that Chinese workers et. al. are forced to work in.

Chinese companies are allowed to dumb raw toxic waste into their rivers and pollute their air - I would challenge anyone who claims there are too many regulations to go to Beijing and then claim they would want to live in that Toxic wasteland.

I am not sure what you mean by "sky-high" union wages. But I do know that most equivalent non union workers get paid the $5.00/hour minimum wage with no health benefits. And those federal laws mentioned are being eroded or simply not enforced by the current administration.

[ January 15, 2004, 20:18: Message edited by: rextorres ]

primitive

January 16th, 2004, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
AT did not use "most" incorrectly... he proabably should have put some parenthesis around "made in America," but that has nothing to do with most. Well, here is a little quizz for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

True or false: US industrial production is less than $140 billion.
(US imports from China is about $140 billion).
True or false: China has more than 375 Million slaves/prison workers
(Chinas total workforce is 750 Millions)

Numbers from the CIA factbook

Baron Munchausen

January 16th, 2004, 01:43 AM

If you think the place of manufacture is all you have to consider, think again!

Bill Moyers did a feature on Walmart on his PBS show "NOW with Bill Moyers" a few weeks ago.

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/walmart.html

Wal-Mart Facts and Figures

World's largest retailer, 2003: Wal-Mart
United State's largest private employer, 2003: Wal-Mart
Wal-Mart's worldwide workforce: 1.3 million
Wal-Mart's most 2002 annual sales figures: $245 billion
Gross Domestic Product of Switzerland, 2002: 231 billion
Number of Wal-Mart stores worldwide: 4,300
Number of Wal-Mart stores opened on October 29, 2003: 39
Average hourly wage of Wal-Mart employee, 2001: $8.23
Average hourly wage of unionized supermarket workers: $10.35
Wal-Mart's price of Kellogg's Corn Flakes vs. competitors price: 56%

I had heard they had some labor troubles and lawsuits, but the truth is beyond belief! It gives new meaning to terms like 'skinflint' and 'Scrooge'... Check this out:

Their average employee working in the US makes $15,000 a year, $7.22 per hour! These employees gross under $11,000 a year. The company brags that 70% of their employees are full time, but fails to disclose that they count anyone working 28 hours a week or more as full time. There are no health care benefits unless you have worked for the company for two years. With a turnover rate averaging above 50% per year, only 38% of their 1.3 million employees have health care coverage. In California alone it's estimated that the taxpayers pay over $20 million annually to subsidize health care benefits for these employees who get none from this behemoth corporation.

According to a report by PBS's "Now" with Bill Moyer, their managers are trained in what government social programs are available for these "employees" to take advantage of so that the company can pass on those costs to the government (meaning taxpayers). It allows them to not only keep their $7 BILLION in annual profits, but to do so by substituting benefits they refuse to provide with benefits paid for with taxpayer dollars.

The National Labor Relations Board has issued over 40 formal complaints against the corporation in 25 different states in just the past five years. The NLRB's top lawyer believed that their labor violations, such as illegal spying on employees, fraudulent record keeping, falsifying time cards to avoid paying overtime, threats, illegal firings for union organizing etc., were so widespread that he was looking into filing a very rare national complaint against the company. (The company contributed $2,159,330.00 to GW Bush and the GOP in 2000 and 2002. The NLRB attorney was replaced when President Bush took office.).

They force employees to work after ordering them to punch out. In Texas alone this practice of "wage theft" is estimated to have cost employees $30 million per year. Wage theft or "off-the-clock" lawsuits are pending in 25 states. In New Mexico they paid $400,000.00 in one suit and in Colorado they had to pay $50 MILLION to settle one class-action case brought against them. In Oregon a jury found them guilty of locking employees in the building and of forcing unpaid overtime.

This company holds the record for the most suits filed against it by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. A lawyer from "Business Week" (not exactly the bastion for supporting Labor) said, "I have never seen this kind of blatant disregard for the law." They had to pay $750,000.00 in Arizona for blatant discrimination against the disabled! The judge was so incensed that he also ordered them to run commercials admitting their guilt.

Nearly 1 MILLION women are involved in the largest class-action suit ever filed against a corporation. Although women make up over 65% of this corporations work force only 10% of them are managers. The women who have become store managers make $16,400 a year LESS then the men.

The corporation took out nearly 350,000 life insurance policies on their employees. They did not tell the employees and named the corporation as the beneficiary. They are now being sued by numerous employees, and although the corporation has stopped this practice of purchasing what is known as "Dead Peasant Policies", a company spokesperson stated, "The company feels it acted properly and legally in doing this."

They practice "predatory pricing": They come into a community and sell their goods at below cost until they drive local businesses under. Once they have captured the market the prices go up. Locally owned and operated businesses put virtually all of their money back into the community which helps keep the local economies vibrant. This corporation sucks the money out of the local community, decreases wages and benefits and ships the profits out of state. This company doesn't buy locally or bank locally. They replace three decent paying jobs in a community with two poorly paid "part-timers". In Kirksville, Missouri when this company came to town, four clothing stores, four grocery stores, a stationary store, a fabric store and a lawn-and-garden store all went under. Eleven businesses are now gone. (The above information can be found in "Thieves in High Places", James Hightower, The Penguin Group, New York, NY, 2003 p. 166 - 193.)

In Contra Costa County, northeast of Oakland, the county board enacted a ban on so-called big box stores. Walmart responded with a phony voter registration drive meant to put a measure on the ballot to overturn the ban. For this they paid canvassers a higher wage than they pay their own employees.

[ January 15, 2004, 23:45: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Renegade 13

January 16th, 2004, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Loser:
No you don't really want it, you just bring it up whenever Ottawa isn't sufficiently attentive.

I've got a chick-friend like this. When she's not getting enough attention from her fellow she starts flirting with me, in fun. Like Western Canada we keep it strictly verbal and above-the-table. But apparently it works, and his jealousy gets her what she wants out of the situation. And despite his occasional threats on my life, we're pretty good friends. Weird, I have a friend like that too....

Loser

January 16th, 2004, 02:07 AM

Well, I don't know how it works for you, but I'd have to admit that I started it. Few things are as entertaining and without risk as flirting with married (or otherwise firmly attached) women.

Not that I'm trying to derail the topic here or anything. I'm all for calling a spade a spade and Wal-Mart the devil. This is entertaining and without risk as well, though not quite so entertaining...

Renegade 13

January 16th, 2004, 02:27 AM

Well, no I didn't start it. Just turns out she liked me and I didn't even know it. Whenever she gets in a spat with her boyfriend, she comes to me. But I'm still in highschool, so maybe this has something to do with the weird dynamics that exist in every highschool that don't exist anywhere else.

(Edit: Sorry for getting the off topic topic farther off topic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

[ January 16, 2004, 00:28: Message edited by: Renegade 13 ]

rextorres

January 16th, 2004, 02:39 AM

Wal-mart is a particularly bad and unpatriotic (for people who care about such things) company and I don't even step foot in one. They are driving down the wages of the average worker:

by forcing manufacturers to ship out jobs overseas so that their prices are low enough so that wal-mart will buy from them

AND

by causing competitors to lower prices and ultimately lower wages to compete with them.

It's ironic (if I may use that word) that the people whose job they are costing are the very same they expect to come in and shop in their store.

It's a downward spiral.

narf poit chez BOOM

January 16th, 2004, 03:54 AM

Baron Munch, that's very valuable information. and i'm now boycotting walmart.

Fyron

January 16th, 2004, 04:22 AM

I was already not shopping at Walmart just cause they have low-quality crap and are rather crowded (with ailses very narrow and such), dirty stores with products all mixed up and all over the place. And they really are not that cheaper than most places, with few exceptions.

Loser

January 16th, 2004, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
dirty storesThis was the part that got me. I used to work at Target where I was, among many other things, a 'cart attendant'. In this role I pretty much took care of everything that went wrong but did not require a certified professional (and occasionally things that should have).

Dammit our store was clean.

And while the 'Target brand' stuff like Utility and whatnot was a hell of a lot less durable than Levi's, it never felt as low-grade as what I could find at Wal-Mart.

Though they do have good produce.

Kamog

January 16th, 2004, 09:47 AM

I hardly ever go to Wal-Mart because there isn't one near me. But the few times I've been to one, I thought the store was pretty good. I didn't know about this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

They come into a community and sell their goods at below cost until they drive local businesses under. Once they have captured the market the prices go up.

Growltigger

January 16th, 2004, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Loser:
Few things are as entertaining and without risk as flirting with married (or otherwise firmly attached) women.I totally agree with you loser, but the problem happens when what you thought was a firmly attached woman decides that she rather likes you after all so much that she would risk all and/or ditch her partner!!

Trying to disengage from one of those positions is one of the hardest things I know

narf poit chez BOOM

January 16th, 2004, 10:21 AM

doesn't sound risk-free.

Growltigger

January 16th, 2004, 10:33 AM

You are all missing one other rather nasty side effect of Walmart's low prices for goods.

Sure they pay their staff peanuts. Sure they take the cheapest option at all times, but what do the cheap prices mean?

It means they stiff their suppliers, and use their buying power to force down the prices the farmers and manufacturers can charge for their goods, reducing in turn their profit element, and reducing the amount of cash they have to support their businesses, and in turn pay their workers.

My advice? go for quality, not cheapness of goods - a farmer near me was a major supplier to Tesco and Asda (owned by Walmart in the UK). HE got so fed up with being told what he would charge that he withdrew from his supply arrangements, and decided to open hs own shop and concentrate on low-volume high quality produce, all organic. Now? Sainsburys ARE BEGGING HIM to supply products, and he can take them to the neogitating table! bloody good effort for him

Loser

January 16th, 2004, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Growltigger:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Loser:
Few things are as entertaining and without risk as flirting with married (or otherwise firmly attached) women.I totally agree with you loser, but the problem happens when what you thought was a firmly attached woman decides that she rather likes you after all so much that she would risk all and/or ditch her partner!!

Trying to disengage from one of those positions is one of the hardest things I know <hr /></blockquote>I've only gotten in a situation that might have been close to this once. I leaned on an odd bit of reputation that I may not deserve (that I am a control freak and have compulsion to rationalize romantic situations) and worked into a joke that I would not have anything to do with an S.O. of a friend for four months after the breakup. In the joke I also pointed out that this pretty much takes care of the issue permanently, as no girl seeing a friend of mine is going to go without a man for four months.

Really, it was all in fun, I think...