Racial Trait Disadvantages

[Fyron]

I've always thought that SE4 could use many more advanced racial traits that are penalties rather than bonuses (you get points back for taking them). P&N, Adamant and a few other mods have some good ones, but not quite enough. What ideas do you have for good disadvantage traits that would not require everyone not taking the disadvantage trait to take a 0 point "advantage" trait that leaves them being normal in that area? For example, you could have a trait that makes space yards take 2x as long to build. This would give a SY with 20k minerals build cost. But, the problem is you still have the regular available, so it has to be taken away, made only allowable by a racial trait that normal races have to take. This would get needlessly complex if there are a lot of such traits.

[Narratio]

Must agree with you. In particular the areas of Temporal / Organic / Crystaline / Religious racial traits. For some minor character disadvantages you can get a huge line of special techs and still have access to the rest of the techs.

When I play with a race that I've taken the Organic Tech attribute on I try and not develop the physical stuff. But it's hard. As you say, there should be a way, if you select one of the 4 specials, of being unable to research other lines. Or at least having the costs of such research and deployment increase.

[ January 18, 2004, 10:25: Message edited by: Narratio ]

[Captain Kwok]

Instead of creating whole new lines of techs for each racial trait - focus on weapons and bonus facilities that match their trait and expect characteristics. For example, an Organic race might need to extract lots of organics, but instead of creating a whole new line of Organics Farms, create racial bonus facilities that greatly increase the output of the basic facilities.

Make normal weapons weaker than any racial trait weapon (i.e. leave them for neutral races etc) and you won't need to restrict them because most of them just won't be worth it unless a racial trait has a particular weakness etc.

[Cipher7071]

Fyron...might there be a way to handle the technical problem by slipping a boolean flag or two into the code somewhere?

(I understand this would probably have to wait for SEV)

[tesco samoa]

you know what i would like as well for racial traits...

The ability to select more than one atmosphere breathing type or even colony type from the get go....

[AMF]

I would like to see limits on what certain traits, like Organic, religious, etc... force upon you as part and parcel of getting their advantages.

So, when you select "organic" then the regular
physical stuff should be verboten. When you select religious, maybe you can't take advanced military science or the hard sciences, or something...


Originally posted by tesco samoa:
you know what i would like as well for racial traits...

The ability to select more than one atmosphere breathing type or even colony type from the get go.... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[Fyron]

Sigh... you guys have missed the entire point. I am not looking to modify the other traits, but to add brand new ones that provide some sort of disadvantage to your empire, and give you back some points. Such as a Naturalists trait that gives you 60% the space on planets, and gives back 2000 to 3000 points.

But if you want physical stuff to be gone when you select organic, play Adamant Mod, as it does exactly that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 18, 2004, 18:59: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[tesco samoa]

inept travel... -1 on all ship movements http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[tesco samoa]

Really ineficent species... Where the empire is very very ineficient so their units and ships are % smaller than regular ships...

ISO9001 and CMMlevel 3 empire....

Where it costs double to build anything due to the paperwork as well as to reseach stuff...

[Taz-in-Space]

How about

Big-boy race: Large WHALE size race - components are DOUBLE sized.

Aqua race: ships have -1 to movement due to having to have water based atmosphere.

Narco-leptic race: lose 25 percent to attack and defense due to falling asleep at controls.

[Cipher7071]

Lol....Complete Idiots.

-10% to research and
-10% to politics (or trade)

+ 1500 racial points for something else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Combat Wombat]

Procrastinators -25% From Space Yard Production

We'll get around to building that ship eventully

[Cipher7071]

Clumsy:

-15% to repair
-15% to ground combat (mostly due to friendly fire accidents)

+1000 racial points

[spoon]

Originally posted by Cipher7071:
Clumsy:
-15% to repair
-15% to ground combat (mostly due to friendly fire accidents)
+1000 racial points <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you're not allowed to have more than one effect going on per trait -- ie, you can have lowered repair or lowered ground combat, but not both. I could be wrong though - can anyone confirm this?

[Cipher7071]

Aaah. I didn't realize that could be a problem. I just sort of assumed that it worked like some of the other attributes shown in the grid at set-up.

[Baron Munchausen]

I added an 'unlucky' trait to my custom setup, trying to drastically increase the frequency of events but I've not had the patience/determination to run the tests and make certain that it works. It's a cool idea if it really works, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Now if only he would implement the restrictions so you could prevent the combination of certain traits.

Name := Unlucky
Description := Twenty-five percent greater chance for bad events.
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Disadvantage
Cost := -500
Trait Type := Luck
Value 1 := 25
Value 2 := 0
Required Trait 1 := None
Required Trait 2 := None
Required Trait 3 := None
Restricted Trait 1 := Deeply Religious
Restricted Trait 2 := Lucky
Restricted Trait 3 := None

[Baron Munchausen]

Yes, we need more abilities than can be implemented with the current code.

1) 'Non-respiratory' racial trait. This is a race that does not need to breathe, like Silicoids in MOO, and so treats all atmospheres the same -- even None! Should probably be as expensive as "Emotionless" since it's another sort of immunity.

2) 'Fragile' racial trait. A race that is so physically delicate that it cannot engage in ground combat at all. Not able to use troops, and no militia appear to defend planets when invaded. If enemy can land troops on the planet, invasion is automatically successful. Returns lots of racial points to be used on something else. (The Amon Krie are good candidates for this. How do worms operate battlemechs?)

3) 'Resistant to Infiltration' - Several types of races are considered to be 'naturally' resistant to intelligence infiltration. An ability needs to be added so that a psychic race or a 'hive-mind' race that should be very hard to infiltrate can have it and have better 'thematic' consistency.

4) 'Anarchist' racial trait -- ability to do without the "Seat of Government" (if it gets implemented) and not suffer the usual penalties. (XiChung? Norak because of religious trait?)

5) "Xenophobe" racial trait: Just like MOO, races that are "Xenophobes" would have very limited diplomacy options, but would get some racial points back to use elsewhere. (Sergetti)

Also, Emotionless should include immunity to Ship Insurrection and Puppet Political Parties. How do you 'incite' an emotionless people to rebellion? And Mechanoids should be immune to the special Psychic weaponss, Mental Flailer and Allegiance Converter. If they are machines, how does a "psychic" attack affect them?

[Fyron]

Norak because of religious trait?)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Typically deeply religious nations are more dependant on a central authority than not having one.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
I added an 'unlucky' trait to my custom setup, trying to drastically increase the frequency of events but I've not had the patience/determination to run the tests and make certain that it works. It's a cool idea if it really works, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Now if only he would implement the restrictions so you could prevent the combination of certain traits.
...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Very similar trait caused a LOT of discussion in the AIC mod thread. Is it for real or just another advertising, non-implemented SEIV feature ? It seems to be finally real with the latest patch, but I'm still not convinced.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Norak because of religious trait?)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Typically deeply religious nations are more dependant on a central authority than not having one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, USA is much more deeply religious nation than any in Europe, so is it more totalitarian ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Fyron]

The USA is a far cry from being "deeply religious"... Also, central authority DOES NOT equate to totalitarian. Being deeply religious means that the religion is more prominent, and much more likely to develop a centralized authority. Roman Catholic Church, for example.

[ January 19, 2004, 20:35: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Name := Unlucky
Restricted Trait 1 := Deeply Religious
Restricted Trait 2 := Lucky
Restricted Trait 3 := None <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why can't you be Religious and Unlucky? What about the Hebrew people in antiquity? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

How do you 'incite' an emotionless people to rebellion?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you would have to do so logically.

[Puke]

Religous Right? Self loathing fondness for totalitariansim? Hebrews only unlucky in antiquity? Another religious / political discussion?

NOOOOOooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo!

depending on the mod, you can do different things with these traits. basically you can raise or lower anything, so its pretty simple. but if you penalize planetary spaceyards through a trait, and boost construction through the normal ability, you end up with a poor ground based builder but a strong orbital builder. perfect for porportions.

if you take a trait that hoses your resource extraction but spend points lowering your maintenance, you get a race that will produce more from 'profitable' ships and bases, like in some Versions of p&n.

Basically, its worth making a negative trait for every possible item that you can (its a short list) and adjusting the point value based on the mod in question.

[Cipher7071]

Looking for bugle.....
Preparing to blow taps for this thread in case of religious/political argument. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[spoon]

Originally posted by Puke:
Basically, its worth making a negative trait for every possible item that you can (its a short list) and adjusting the point value based on the mod in question. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here's the list (from Fyron Modding Tutorial):

Supply Cost - good candidate
Luck - keep it small since most games don't have events anyway...
Vehicle Speed - oof - should be worth a lot
Planet Storage Space - good one
Planetary SY Rate - see Pukes comment below. Then mod him down.
Tech Areas - You could include a racial trait that hoses the player's starting planet by making his starting facilities weaker.

The following were listed as possibly not working at all, but if they do, you should be able to assign negatives to them.

Troops Bonus
Fighter Bonus
Ship Bonus
Mineral Production
Mineral Storage
Organics Production
Organics Storage
Radioactives Production
Radioactives Storage
Research Production
Intelligence Production
Trade
Ground Combat
Space Combat
Maintenance Cost
Ship Attack
Ship Defense

[Paul1980au]

Going by that Last post

Do we want more events or less events. And if no changes to the occourance numbers do we want modders to get to work on introducing say 100+ event types.

Supply costs changes - could work by increasing the amount of supplies used per movement point reducing the range of starting ships

Vechile speed - could add or subtract in terms of the propulsion of ship parts or making propulsion technology twice as expensive as normal to research.

Planetary storage space - good idea expand or reduce the available space would have an impact on ground combat and weapons platforms ?

Tech areas - making a players starting facilities or making research facilities more expensive to construct could work ?

Comments or ideas welcome

[Fyron]

Do we want more events or less events. And if no changes to the occourance numbers do we want modders to get to work on introducing say 100+ event types. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Check out the Eye Candy Mod on your Gold CD and Adamant Mod at http://adamant.spaceempires.net/ . Both of these mods have many more events than stock SE4. Adamant used the Eye Candy Mod events file as a base, and expanded it even further.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Name := Unlucky
Restricted Trait 1 := Deeply Religious
Restricted Trait 2 := Lucky
Restricted Trait 3 := None <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought that the Restricted Trait fields didn't actually do anything...

[Fyron]

If you look in the preceding paragraph in BM's post, you will see:
Now if only he would implement the restrictions so you could prevent the combination of certain traits. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[Paul1980au]

Thanks yes i will utilise his events file - is he working on new updated expaned features often ? his webpage is a little slow in opening to.

[Fyron]

Which one are you talking about specifically?

[Paul1980au]

The one you linked me to - gotta download it first.

[Fyron]

There were two... Eye Candy and Adamant... if the Adamant site is loading slowly, I will need to go kick the server. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Narrew]

What about a Trait caled Cloneing, no pop growth, must have incubation vats on a planet for breeding reasons.

[Fyron]

Can't have a trait affect a stat and add tech areas at the same time...

[Narrew]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Can't have a trait affect a stat and add tech areas at the same time... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you can not grow your pop on all planets, but have breding colonies because of the vats, wouldnt that be a special trait, maybe there could be something bad due to the negative effects of the cloneing.

I dont know, I was just throwing out something.

[Phoenix-D]

When Fyron says can't, he means can't. SE4 won't let you do it.

[Narrew]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
When Fyron says can't, he means can't. SE4 won't let you do it. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought he was asking for future ideas ect... other traits that would add to the game...

[Fyron]

I was more asking about traits that could be added to SE4 as is. BM took it a step further with traits he would like to see possible in future Versions of the game.

[Paul1980au]

Well lets see MM make changes to the SEIV 1.85 patch when it is realised that allows such new racial traits - that is a great idea but you would need access to the cloning vats to start with or perhaps by capturing planets of the enemy and transfer their populations back to youre planets to make up the diff.