OT - Who wants to write a "roguelike" game? How about a 4X?

[Ed Kolis]

Yeah, that's right, I'm asking for people to help me create our very own "roguelike" game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif This is something I've wanted to do for some time, but I know that if I'm working on something alone, I have a tendency to start on it and never touch it again. But I figure if I'm working in a team, I'll be less likely to bail out because there are other people depending on my effort - kinda like I never quit any of my PBW games, no matter how drawn-out they may become, because it would ruin the game for the other players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I know there are some of us around here who like roguelike games, and quite a few who are programmers, so anyone up for it? I have a *strong* personal preference toward programming in C#, just because I like to use the latest greatest tools out there. (Probably because I'm so forgetful that I need the context sensitive help that modern object oriented Languages' IDEs provide! "What methods does that class have again? Better look at the list... typetypetype myclass dot OH! That's what it was called! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) But that's not a hard-and-fast rule; I'd really like to write some sort of game. (I'd also suggest a 4X game but those are probably much more complicated, and we don't want to compete with Malfador and/or steal all their ideas! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

edit: topic title

[ January 22, 2004, 14:02: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

[geoschmo]

What is Rogue?

[Combat Wombat]

I can't code anything for the life of me and I'm not completely sure what you have in mind but I have photoshop and am willing to help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Paul1980au]

Suggest you get over to sourceforge.net and do a search its the open source softward directory go to games and look for existing projects and get involved (look for those programming in C++) and go help with ones already existing and perhaps you can alter it to suit youre tastes - there are thousands of such projects why not make existing ones storonger.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

(I'd also suggest a 4X game but those are probably much more complicated
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you don't think roguelike's are complicated? mwUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

for a good example of a very good roguelike, go here: http://www.adom.de/

and make it with darkbasic. very simple: http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/

well, the Last bit was advertising. and roguelikes can be very simple. but none that i've played have, except the original.

and i don't know C#. or C++. or C+. or C.

[ January 22, 2004, 02:42: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[Paul1980au]

Doesnt the angband and variants fall under this also - i play zangband which i find the best of the angband variants.

[Wydraz]

How about a roguelike set in space? Instead of a character you're a ship. Instead of dungeons, you explore star systems. Instead of monsters, you fight enemey ships...

Oh wait, that would be Trek. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Well, if it's set in an original universe, I might be willing to pitch in with the graphics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 02:46: Message edited by: Wydraz ]

[Suicide Junkie]

A Spacehack game?
I won't have programming time to help with, but I do have a nice portfolio of ideas!

-----

Gotta have leaky armor! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Things are more exciting when every hit has subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) effects on your abilities.
Near- Instant death combat would tend to make it an exercise in save/load.

And dangerous components... Carring a lot of missile ammo should make you worry when a bLaster shot starts a fire in your supply bays!
Antiproton beams doing bLast damage to your hull when they get destroyed. Watch out for chain reactions!
It would also encourage a mix of safer, but less powerful weaponry amidst the Uberguns.

[ January 22, 2004, 04:05: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Kamog]

Those roguelike games are addictive. But I have never completed a game because in every game I play, I die sooner or later, even though I am super careful. Half the time I run out of food and starve. I spend most of my money on food as a precaution but I still still run out and then I don't have any money left. Or I get lost in a dungeon and get killed by monsters. And once the character is dead, he is dead and there is no save game to go back to. I'm used to playing RPG's where I always save before entering a dungeon or town, so that if I die I can go back. Eventually I get frustrated that I have to keep starting from the very beginning with new characters.

For a new roguelike game, would you consider allowing save games so that you can restore it when you die? Or is that against tradition of roguelike games?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I might be willing to pitch in with the graphics.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">roguelike's don't have graphics. those which do, take your pick:
A) Aren't roguelike's.
B) Should be bLasted off the face of the universe like the corruption they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


For a new roguelike game, would you consider allowing save games so that you can restore it when you die? Or is that against tradition of roguelike games?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah, but that's one particular tradition i've never cared for. what you do is back up your saved games in a folder in the save folder. then, when you die, you copy whichever to the save folder.

i hope no-one's taking my comments to seriously.

[dogscoff]

For a new roguelike game, would you consider allowing save games so that you can restore it when you die? Or is that against tradition of roguelike games?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... you do get bones files- they're the next best thing after savegames.

I'd love to see a 4X game developped in a co-operative fashion a la nethack. Unfortunately my coding talents extend little further than "hello world" so I'd be unable to help with anything other than ideas, but I do have plenty of those.

I don't think such a project would be a serious threat Malfador's income. It would take years and years to come up with anything approaching the complexity and sheer gosh-darn-goodness of SEIV, and by then we'd all have bought SEV anyway.

[geoschmo]

Ok, I'll ask again since noone seems to have seen it before. What is Rogue?

[Ed Kolis]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
I'd love to see a 4X game developped in a co-operative fashion a la nethack. Unfortunately my coding talents extend little further than "hello world" so I'd be unable to help with anything other than ideas, but I do have plenty of those.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, maybe with someone to give me ideas and prod me on, I could at least get a 4X project off the ground... any you want to suggest off the top of your head?

I don't think such a project would be a serious threat Malfador's income. It would take years and years to come up with anything approaching the complexity and sheer gosh-darn-goodness of SEIV, and by then we'd all have bought SEV anyway. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, but what about SEVI, SEVII, and of course the all-important SEX? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif All kidding aside, I'm just afraid we'd end up stealing too many of Malfador's good ideas and become a complete ripoff of SE4... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif But hey, Aaron's perfectly free to add anything we might add to our game into any future Space Empires games, right? We might even donate some code just because we like SE so much! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

edit: damned quote tags!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 14:02: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

[Cipher7071]

Considering some of the common complaints I've seen about the internet Versions of some games, including the "buggered" TCP/IP Version of SEIV, I think that PERL would be a good choice of language for such a project. The syntax is quite similar to C++ (with some interesting, although somewhat arcane additions), and is specifically designed for the web. It might open up some options for you.

[ January 22, 2004, 15:06: Message edited by: Cipher7071 ]

[Puke]

a roguelike 4x? how about a roguelike elitelike, where you pilot a ship and trade in space and on planets, and can build your own corporation and construct starbases and things. you could fight with other merchants and pirates, or maybe be a pirate yourself. you could call it TradeWars. Oh wait, thats been done.

I think it would be rather interesting to see an open source 4x game. If it was simple enough (ascii graphics) it wouldnt really compeat with anything, but would add ideas and enthusiasm to the genre. just dont rip off things TOO shamelessly from the SE serise.

[Loser]

Word Game: Hamlet (http://www.robinjohnson.f9.co.uk/adventure/hamlet.html)

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Ok, I'll ask again since noone seems to have seen it before. What is Rogue?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i posted a link to a roguelike game because i saw it. but, if that wasn't informative, Rogue was one of the first adventure games which wasn't text-based. actually, according to what i have heard, it should be Wizard-like games, because the first game where you manuvered an alphanumeric character around alphanumeric maps fighting alphanumeric monsters was called Wizard. or so i've heard. and that's basically what it is. no graphics, but they make up for it with incredible complexity.

[Andrés]

An open source d&d like game with ASCII graphics.

http://directory.google.com/Top/Games/Video_Games/Roleplaying/Rogue-like/Rogue/?tc=1

[Cipher7071]

Alphameric characters? Alphameric landscape? Ack...I'd sooner eat bees http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif .

[Kamog]

Well, even though it's all ascii characters, once you start playing, your imagination takes over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Puke]

I think the first one was Wumpus Hunter, if you want to get picky. but rogue was the first that had all of the different monsters and inventory management and magic and potions and traps and stuff. all the following games kept the basic rogue format, and by and large use the same characters to represent the same things.

Thus, a player of Rogue could play Angband or Nethack and basically understand everything that he is looking at.

[dogscoff]

For those who want to see a roguelike in action: www.nethack.org (http://www.nethack.org)

Download and play. It takes a while to get into it but believe me it's worth it.


Well, maybe with someone to give me ideas and prod me on, I could at least get a 4X project off the ground... any you want to suggest off the top of your head?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, i guess the thing to do would be to start from the basics and build upwards from there.

I would propose a co-ordinate/vector based 2D map rather se4's squares (too limiting in terms of scale) or hexes (too much hassle to code, I would imagine). Realistic starsystems within it, with stars, planets, moons etc. Having all those bodies orbit around one another would be nice, but probably far too much of a pain coding, interface and autopilot-wise. Travel could then be slower or faster than light depending on game settings/ player tech, and wormholes/ warp points (natural and artificial) could be included as well.

[ January 23, 2004, 09:19: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[Voidhawk]

Woohoo, NetHack 3.4.3 is out! I haven't played since 3.4.1. Looks like it's time for me to resume my ASCII kicking career again!

The server I used to play on appears to have gone AWOL (antisymmetric.com). Blarg. All those beautiful bones I left... such a waste. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Do any of you guys play NH Online, and if so, where? I need a good new place to deposit my future bones. Are there any good servers running 3.4.3 yet?

Back on topic: I couldn't code my way out of a wet paper bag, unfortunately.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Alphameric characters? Alphameric landscape? Ack...I'd sooner eat bees .
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">if you can read a book, you can play a roguelike.

i still like the idea of another roguelike, but i'm not the one who's doing it and it's unlikely that i'd be able to contribute any code, so...

[Puke]

there really are a ton of projects on sourceforge. im sure you can find one to work on, if that is the goal. or, if you just want to start a random programming project with likeminded se4 people, then i understand. cant help, but understand.

I think its a bad idea to create the code for the map, and work from there. I think you should create the code for your empire management, and then create the map and movement and combat and such as seperate pieces, tieing in to the same code. but thats just my two bits.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

uh...but how are you supposed to know if your empire management is running with no numbers to plug in?

[Andrés]

<div style="width:246px; text-align:center; margin:auto; padding:0px"><div style="background-color:#445599; color:#00ffff; font:small georgia, times new roman; border:1px solid #00ffff; padding:5px"><div style="font:large monospace; color:#4488cc; padding:5px; line-height:140%">..)....
...<B STYLE="color:#00ffff">e[/B]...
.......</div>If I were a NetHack monster, I would be a floating eye. I see and sense absolutely everything that happens around me. I just don't do very much about it.</div>Which NetHack Monster Are You? (http://kevan.org/nethack)</div>

[Cipher7071]

Well, I've played some strictly text-based games before, and sure, you have to depend on your imagination. Why even bother with graphics, if that's your thing? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Kamog]

OK, when I took that test, I got this one:

<div style="width:246px; text-align:center; margin:auto; padding:0px"><div style="background-color:#333333; color:#888888; font:small georgia, times new roman; border:1px solid #888888; padding:5px"><div style="font:large monospace; color:#666666; padding:5px; line-height:140%">.....|
.%.<B STYLE="color:#888888">t[/B].+#
....!|</div>If I were a NetHack monster, I would be a trapper. Why bother going anywhere? I don't mind hanging around. All things come to those who wait.</div>Which NetHack Monster Are You? (http://kevan.org/nethack)</div>

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Well, I've played some strictly text-based games before, and sure, you have to depend on your imagination. Why even bother with graphics, if that's your thing?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i like graphics and gameplay.

[Puke]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
uh...but how are you supposed to know if your empire management is running with no numbers to plug in? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thats why god created sample data.

[Fyron]

Work hard to get it? I think this thing is highly innaccurate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

<div style="width:246px; text-align:center; margin:auto; padding:0px"><div style="background-color:#553300; color:#ff6600; font:small georgia, times new roman; border:1px solid #ff6600; padding:5px"><div style="font:large monospace; color:#994422; padding:5px; line-height:140%">.....!|
...<B STYLE="color:#ff6600">h[/B]..|
../[..|</div>If I were a NetHack monster, I would be a dwarf. I enjoy using expensive, high-quality equipment, and I'm not afraid to work hard to get it.</div>Which NetHack Monster Are You? (http://kevan.org/nethack)</div>

[narf poit chez BOOM]

thats why god created sample data.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">well, that would work.

[Voidhawk]

<div style="width:246px; text-align:center; margin:auto; padding:0px"><div style="background-color:444499; color:#33ccff; font:small georgia, times new roman; border:1px solid #33ccff; padding:5px"><div style="font:large monospace; color:2266cc; padding:5px; line-height:140%">#|.
###<B STYLE="color:#33ccff">n[/B]#+.
|.</div>If I were a NetHack monster, I would be a water nymph. Relationships are more about what you get out of them, than what you put in. That elven cloak really matches your eyes, you know.</div>Which NetHack Monster Are You? (http://kevan.org/nethack)</div>

Great. I HATE those freaking things. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif


Originally posted by Cipher7071:
Well, I've played some strictly text-based games before, and sure, you have to depend on your imagination. Why even bother with graphics, if that's your thing?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd say you only have to 'depend' on your imagination for the first few games you play. I remember when I first started on NetHack, I had a very tough time dealing with the graphics (or lack thereof). But I figured there had to be something to it since there are so many gamers who swear by it, so I hung in there.

Now I don't even 'see' the ASCII anymore. It's hard to describe, but once you realize how deep and ridiculously addictive the game is, nothing else really matters! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[dogscoff]

Ack...I'd sooner eat bees .
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually eating bees is a good way to get poison resistance, although you ought to make sure you have decent HP and a potion or restore ability handy...

[Baron Munchausen]

<div style="width:246px; text-align:center; margin:auto; padding:0px"><div style="background-color:#005500; color:#00ff00; font:small georgia, times new roman; border:1px solid #00ff00; padding:5px"><div style="font:large monospace; color:#00aa00; padding:5px; line-height:140%">#|.
###<B STYLE="color:#00ff00">l[/B]#+.
|.</div>If I were a NetHack monster, I would be a leprechaun. I like to make as much money as possible, with as little effort as possible, and then go back to bed.</div>Which NetHack Monster Are You? (http://kevan.org/nethack)</div>

[Puke]

and eating leprechauns is a really good way to be cursed by random teleportation. Of course, its a really handy intrinsic to have, if you can control it.

Never have ascended. Maybe I'll make an effort at it again. Some people play with strict codes of honor, but I'm not above doing the nurse dance. remember, drinking from fountains and kicking sinks is statistically a very bad proposition, unless you are truely desperate. then, its still a statistically very bad proposition.

[dogscoff]

drinking from fountains and kicking sinks is statistically a very bad proposition<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hell no, I always kick the first sink I come across. As a wizard with a nice erodeproof quarterstaff, black puddongs are nothing more than a tasty snack and XP-excercise. ANd they dish out intrinsics as well. Then there's a chance you'll find a ring as well, which ionly leaves the foocubs, which is sometimes good, sometimes bad. As for fountains, I always use them asap to make something worthwhile out of my useless potions and scrolls, and to hell with the consequences. THe only bad consequence really worth worrying about is the hostile water demon. Most anything else can be dealt with fairly easily if you're patient. Oh, and the water nymphs... Why do they ALWAYS go straight for my ]oMR?

[Ed Kolis]

<div style="width:246px; text-align:center; margin:auto; padding:0px"><div style="background-color:#330033; color:#ee99ee; font:small georgia, times new roman; border:1px solid #ee99ee; padding:5px"><div style="font:large monospace; color:#993399; padding:5px; line-height:140%">|/%)[[%
+.<B STYLE="color:#ee99ee">@[/B]%)]+
|/%)))%</div>If I were a NetHack monster, I would be a shopkeeper. I'm exceptionally polite and helpful, but get angry when people try to take advantage of my trusting nature.</div>Which NetHack Monster Are You? (http://kevan.org/nethack)</div>

Yup, that's me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Ed Kolis]

Say, check this out...

http://sourceforge.net/projects/exuniverse/

Someone's started a project at Sourceforge that looks just like what I want to do... C#, DirectX, even XML data files! I'm going to try to get in on it, if it's still active... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Loser]

Originally posted by Voidhawk:
I'd say you only have to 'depend' on your imagination for the first few games you play. I remember when I first started on NetHack, I had a very tough time dealing with the graphics (or lack thereof). But I figured there had to be something to it since there are so many gamers who swear by it, so I hung in there.

Now I don't even 'see' the ASCII anymore. It's hard to describe, but once you realize how deep and ridiculously addictive the game is, nothing else really matters! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> I don't even see the code anymore. I just see blond, brunette, red head.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[David E. Gervais]

So someone wants to make a roguelike game eh?

I'm sure that you're gonna want some nifty graphic tiles right?

http://pousse.rapiere.free.fr/tome/index.htm

You can find all my 'free' tiles here. (you can also find some work screens I posted in the Dungeon Odyssey forum. The screens are full of monster body parts etc so you can have fun creating your own frankenstein works.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[David E. Gervais]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
roguelike's don't have graphics. those which do, take your pick:
A) Aren't roguelike's.
B) Should be bLasted off the face of the universe like the corruption they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Grrrrrrr, I lean in and grab narf by the collar and pull him close so that he can hear my low raspy whisper you know narf, it's like this,.. the original rogue was 'text' based (aka ascii) because the machine it was programmed on did not have 'graphic' capabilities. I think, (and I'm not alone) that people that say 'roguelikes should be text-based exclusively' are wrong. It would be the same as saying Computer games should only have 4 colors, because the first ones used CGA and that was limited to 4 colors. So it's not computer-gamelike if it has more colors or higher resolution.

I release narf and pat him gently on the head now be a good rat and go play in the sandbox.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 28, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

MOUSE! i'm a MOUSE!

we do have 'roguelike' games that have graphics. there called >Adventure< or >RPG< games. by saying roguelike, i am refering to a specific type of adventure or rpg game where the graphics are text-based. to call a graphical adventure or rpg a roguelike would reduce the classification to redundancy.

so there. *bounces a peice of cheese off David's head.* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 28, 2004, 19:43: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[David E. Gervais]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
MOUSE! i'm a MOUSE!

so there. *bounces a peice of cheese off David's head.* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With the reflexes of a cat I catch the cheeze before it hits the floor and pop it into my mouth, mmmmmm, cheddar, good stuff.

Narf Have you ever played a game called Angband? Nethack? ToME? All these are considered 'Roguelike' but they also have the option to play with 'graphic' tiles. So according to you these games STOP being a roguelike game when you toggle the graphics on? Bzzzzzzzzz, Wrong! Roguelike is a 'type' of gameplay experience. Not a 'set' of text display routines. by your definition to be roguelike a game needs to be text based. Does this mean the computer Version of 'hangman' that uses a text display is a roguelike?

You are mixing apples and oranges, and while apples go good with cheeze, I doubt that oranges are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 28, 2004, 20:17: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by David E. Gervais:
You are mixing apples and oranges, and while apples go good with cheeze, I doubt that oranges are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have had oranges with motzerella cheeze. Not on it, but side by side. It may not go as well as apples and cheeze, but the tastes are not uncomplimentary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Narf Have you ever played a game called Angband? Nethack? ToME? All these are considered 'Roguelike' but they also have the option to play with 'graphic' tiles. So according to you these games STOP being a roguelike game when you toggle the graphics on? Bzzzzzzzzz, Wrong! Roguelike is a 'type' of gameplay experience. Not a 'set' of text display routines. by your definition to be roguelike a game needs to be text based. Does this mean the computer Version of 'hangman' that uses a text display is a roguelike?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes, they do indeed stop being roguelike. experience? any very well-designed RPG can give you your 'roguelike' experience, which seems to be about depth of playability. but, again, calling something with graphics a roguelike reduces the classification to redundancy. so there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[David E. Gervais]

Ok, Narf I'll set the record straight and give you a history lesson at the same time..

The origins of Rogue...

Michael Toy and Glenn Wichman, two students in University of Santa Cruz, California, experimented with curses library. They both had enjoyed playing Adventure which was the first text adventure game. After making some simple games with curses, they began to write a graphical adventure game. Michael Toy did most of the programming and Glenn contributed ideas to the project and coined the name "Rogue".

One of their main goals to create a game they could enjoy playing by themselves. Most existing adventure-type games had predesigned plot and world which remained exactly the same every time you played it. Michael and Glenn decided to make Rogue more random. Rogue build the dungeon using the pseudo-random number generator, so the game was different every time you played it, making it possible that even the creators of the game could be surprised by it.


So if you notice the bold text "they began to write a graphical adventure game." you can see that the original rogue was indeed designed to be a 'graphical adventure' the fact that it uses 'curses' instead of bitmaps does not make it 'less-graphical'. They were simply using the tools of the day. (and making very innovative use of the tools too.)

What does this mean? It means that the original 'Rogue' was always meant to be a 'graphical' game and therefore all 'Roguelike' games should also be considered 'graphical' and weather they use 'ascii' or 'tiles' , has no bearing on their being roguelike. What makes games roguelike is 'Random' dungeons, treasure, monsters, multiple levels and a hot concept called 'replayability'.

Rogue is the 'Grandfather of crpg'. Give Rogue the full credit it is due. Don't just say it's the first text-based crpg, it is so much more than that.

I rest my case. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

So what do I win? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

fine, so RPG's with random dungeons and stuff can call themselves 'roguelikes'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

what do you win? cheese! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

*drops 2 tons of cheese on David*

but what do you do when all RPG's have random dungeons, huh? what do you do then? didn't think of that, did you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Puke]

no, diablo cant call itsself roguelike just because it has random dungeons. and it isnt unroguelike just because it does not use ascii. you can argue any similarity or difference, but the 'heart' of the genre is going to be specific to any individuals interperatation. which is why you both have your undies in a bunch. rogue was ASCII based, and was tile based, was turn based, had random dungeons, involved a quest for artifact retrieval, etc, etc. you can say that the presence or lack of any of those things makes it roguelike or unroguelike, but honestly youre just *****in.

you guys are playing two extremes of the arguement, and i must insist that you quit yer *****in. there are many tilesets for rogue, and the Version that I played the most of, was written by one of the original two designers as an ATARI ST port, and indeed used a graphical tileset. the same tileset that is still popular, and which is used to derive many of the larger tilesets in existance today.

there are many efforts at creating 3d isometric tilesets, and some open GL ones. my favorite way to play is with the classic ascii characters, but if there was a well done graphical set, with animated tiles, i'd play that too. Honestly, the Version that I find most attractive is the set that uses OPEN-GL rendered ascii characters, so the floor is a bunch of flat '.' characters, and the '@' sign and other symbols stand up in 3d.

I have often wanted to take some custom art to a print shop to be placed on a t-shirt, with a 3-d @ symbol wielding a shield and flaming sword, with a limp & sign on the ground before it.

As an interesting note (that most folks are unaware of, so i thought i'd share), the original default character name for the ST port of Rogue (by one of the original designers, as i mentioned) was Rodney. You were, of course, trying to recover the Amulet of Yendor. In Nethack, you are also trying to recover the Amulet of Yendor. But its a bit more detailed, and you have to take it from a near-demigod wizard (the wizard of yendor). His name? Rodney.

[David E. Gervais]

The only point I was trying to get accross is that syaing Roguelike=ASCII is wrong. (Look at it this way, 'Rogue' is a house made of logs, roguelike is a house made of many materials [ie stone, brick, metal] saying it's not a house because it's not made of logs is stupid. Rogue is the concept of a dwelling with a roof, doors and windows. Rogue is not the idea that if we cut down trees and make loge we can build a house.)

blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda... add infinity,.. It's an old arguement. one with no winner, and it's such a heart felt concept that there will always be difference of opinion...

omg! 'Rogue' is just like a religion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif (j/kd'ing)

(I say six you say half a dozen)

nuf said, Cheers!

[narf poit chez BOOM]

which is why you both have your undies in a bunch.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i think both of you are mistaking the actual fervency i have toward wether something is a roguelike or not. i, personally, do not think a game with graphics counts as roguelike. on the other hand, i actually don't care if he calls it a roguelike, i just like argueing.

so sue me. occasionally i do a Fyron. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Loser]

Originally posted by Puke:
As an interesting note (that most folks are unaware of, so i thought i'd share), the original default character name for the ST port of Rogue (by one of the original designers, as i mentioned) was Rodney. You were, of course, trying to recover the Amulet of Yendor. In Nethack, you are also trying to recover the Amulet of Yendor. But its a bit more detailed, and you have to take it from a near-demigod wizard (the wizard of yendor). His name? Rodney. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good to know.

And, now that it's been mentioned, Diablo is rather rogue-like.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

And, now that it's been mentioned, Diablo is rather rogue-like.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">aside from being a brainless click-fest with re-used monster models and only three or four classes, why yes.

in my opinion, Diablo doesn't make RPG either.

not that it's a bad game, it's just not anything more than an arcade click-fest. but a fun one.

i have only played the demo, so...

[ January 29, 2004, 00:23: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[Kamog]

There is an old ASCII-based 4X space game called Anacreon: Reconstruction 4021. The map and everything is made of text characters. Has anybody played it? It seems to be a good game, but I never got around to figuring out how to play it, because I keep going back to SE4...

It is freeware and you can get it here:
http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=55

[Ed Kolis]

I played Anacreon a few times and it looked cool... just the interface was so confusing, I seem to recall having to memorize arcane commands like G to build fighters and Control-O to use a warp gate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

What I did like about that game, though, was all the "stellar constructions" you could do - you know those stargates you could build in MOO1 and Stars? Well instead of just building them at one of your systems, you could (in fact you HAD to, IIRC) build them OUTSIDE a system, where you had to actually defend them with ships and such else someone else take them over! You could even build artificial colonies or factories in the dead of space, similar to SE4's stellar manipulation only you don't need asteroids!