Up to date beta patch info..

[Richard]

Okay you guys wanted to see what we were doign in test so here is the newest revision as of tonights load:

Version History for Space Empires IV
---------------------------------------------------

Version 1.15:
1. Fixed - Fixed a problem in the VehicleSize.txt file where the
"Combat To Hit Add" ability was used to make bases easier
to hit. This ability has now been changed to "Combat To Hit
Offense Plus" and "Combat To Hit Offense Minus". The ability
"Combat To Hit Dec" has been changed to "Combat To Hit
Defense Plus" and "Combat To Hit Defense Minus".
2. Fixed - Simultaneous Games: The Host would ask for missing player
files from players that were dead.
3. Fixed - Simultaneous Games: The Host would ask for missing player
files even when being run from the command line.
4. Fixed - Improved the AI Retrofit minister.
5. Fixed - Improved the AI Minesweeping minister.
6. Fixed - Access Violation in Combat Replay where the combat only Lasted
one turn.
7. Fixed - Combat Replay was skipping the first turn.
8. Changed - Simultaneous combat resolution to now be triggered off of
movement (It used to occur every 5 phases regardless of movement).
9. Fixed - Victory Condition "X% of Tech Levels" was displaying incorrectly
in the Victory Conditions window.
10. Fixed - Modified Victory Condition min\max\default values.
11. Fixed - Occasional index error bug when starting a new game.
12. Fixed - Improved AI Max Range movement strategy.
13. Fixed - Improved AI dodging of seekers.
14. Fixed - Improved AI Optimal Range movement strategy.
15. Fixed - Range Check Error would happen sometimes when you looked at
the designs in the Designs window after using an existing
empire from a previous game.
16. Fixed - Hotseat Simultaneous: Missing player file message should not
be displayed.
17. Fixed - Hotseat Simultaneous: if the player didn't do anything on their
turn, the computer should not take over.
18. Added - A Weapon to Hit modifier to the weapon mounts.
19. Fixed - Changed "Set Colony Type" (in Colonies Window) and "Send
Colonizer" (in Planets Window) lists to show all planets in
the list, not just those in the visible portion. (Too
many players were confused by this feature).
20. Fixed - If asteroids or a planet was hidden by a storm, you could get
a range check error when you clicked on that system.
21. Fixed - A race that was created from a rebellion would retain all of
its source empire's communication connections. They could
send a message to an empire that had never seen them.
22. Fixed - Miscellaneous manual link fixes.
23. Fixed - Speed-ups for combat with fighters.
24. Fixed - AI Fleets who had a transport and set their strategy to
"Capture Planet" were not changing it back to "Optimal"
when the transport was lost.
25. Fixed - Error in ability name in Abilities.txt.
26. Changed - Fighter Bays to launch 1, 2, and 3 fighters. Same for satellite
bays.
27. Fixed - Added descriptions for Boarding Party and Security Station
abilities in Components.txt.
28. Fixed - Captured ships should lose any experience bonus they had.
29. Added - Captured ships will have their reload times increased by 10
combat turns (this is modifiable in the Settings.txt file).

Version 1.14:
1. Fixed - After only one turn of emergency build, you would
not get slow build for one turn.
2. Fixed - If the item currently being constructed was deleted,
the accomplished resources stuck around.
3. Fixed - Weapon damage was maxed out at 999. It now has a
maximum of 50000.
4. Fixed - A satellite group cannot remote mine with all of the
satellites present.
5. Fixed - Minefield report would reference an individual sector
location.
6. Fixed - The list of damage types in Components.txt was wrong.
7. Fixed - AI Colonize minister would send another ship to colonize a
planet even if it already had one in orbit with just the
colonize order remaining.
8. Fixed - When copying or upgrading a design, the old name is now
present in the Edit Design Window.
9. Fixed - Planets that are hidden by storms or nebulae were still
being drawn on the system map.
10. Fixed - Stars cannot be hidden by a storm or nebulae.
11. Fixed - AI Player turn text was not centered.
12. Fixed - Problems with AI control over their planets and fleets
introduced in the Last Version.
13. Fixed - An empire loaded from a previous game might allow you to
colonize planets other than your home planets that you had
gained the technology for in a previous game.
14. Changed - Show production values with parenthesis in the Colonies Window
if the colony does not have a spaceport or is blockaded.
15. Fixed - A ship with a construction queue that was run on emergency build
could be run at normal without the slow period if the ship
was mothballed then unmothballed.
16. Changed - The Colonies Window now displays the complete facility and cargo
list.
17. Changed - The Ships Window now displays the complete cargo and orders list.
18. Fixed - Added a "Number Scrapped" design statistic to better display the
results of a ship that was retrofitted or scrapped (instead of
showing the design as being "Lost").
19. Fixed - In the Designs Window, you could right click an item in the list
and have the selection change, but the report would not change.
20. Fixed - If you were not the current player during a tactical combat, the
launch units window would not show your ships \ planets to launch
from.
21. Fixed - Ships with "Endless" supplies were shown in the Ships window with
"60000 / 60000" supplies.
22. Fixed - Clarified the description for the Neural Net component.
23. Fixed - The "Send Colony Ship" button in the Planets Window would not always
pick the closest colony ship to the target planet.
24. Fixed - Improved the Population Transport minister so that it will not
deplete planets completely with multiple transports.
NOTE: The Population Transport moves population from planets with
over 1000M to planets with less than 500M (if the target planet
is not at its maximum).
25. Fixed - Typo in the description for the Robo components.
26. Fixed - Increased the cost of the Chemistry tech area to 50000.
27. Fixed - Increased the cost of the Resource Manipulation tech are to 200000.
28. Fixed - Improved the AI's use of the Open Warp Point component.
29. Fixed - Improved the AI's detection of when it is cut-off from the rest
of the galaxy.

Version 1.13:
1. Fixed - Differentiated AI players a bit more. Also made them more
aggressive and more intolerant of players in their territory.
2. Fixed - Fixed problem in combat replay where you would get an IO Error
if in a Turn-Based game the combat log was completely empty.
3. Fixed - AI should not build research facilities if they have all techs.
4. Fixed - If an empire was created with a password, that password is required
to edit it.
5. Fixed - Beam lines drawn during tactical combat were sometimes slowing down.
6. Fixed - The feature that would warn the Host if not all of the player
files was present was not working.
7. Changed - When a construction queue is in slow mode, the rate is now 25% of
normal.
8. Added - Added an option to a game setup to disable intelligence entirely.
9. Fixed - The map would be displayed if you started a new game from within
a game. Now, the map will only show if you generate it.
10. Changed - Both ground based and component based space yards are all within
the space yard tech area.
11. Fixed - The Fleet minister would disband fleets even if the individual
minister toggle was not on.
12. Fixed - Retrofitting a ship would sometimes heal damaged components.
13. Fixed - Time Distortion Burst would not work against weapon platforms.
14. Fixed - The AI would not always fire its weapons before moving away
from a target.
15. Fixed - Removed the ability "Resupply Pod" from the Abilities.txt file
because it was not being used.
16. Fixed - Added a new damage type "Disrupt Reload Times" so that the Energy
Dampner weapon would not be stopped by a Master Computer.
17. Fixed - Fixed the minimum speed requirement on ai Attack Bases.
18. Fixed - The AI would change construction queues for planets even if the
individual minister was not toggled on.
19. Fixed - Retrofitting a ship should not add a "destroyed" statistic to the
old design.
20. Fixed - AI was not corretly recognizing the extended range capability of
weapon mounts.
21. Fixed - Small Combat Sensors would upgrade to Ground Cannon.
22. Fixed - A minefield that is hit by your ships should only show the explosion
once (not per ship hit).
23. Fixed - Planets that were on the edge of the combat map in Tactical
Combat, when fired on would have weapons fire that would go off
the map.
24. Fixed - You cannot change the Colony Type of you homeworld.
25. Fixed - The Hide obsolete button should not be disabled in the Designs
Window when all of the designs listed are obsolete.

Version 1.12:
1. Fixed - Game_Racestyle.html was missing from the manual.
2. Fixed - On rare occasions, the AI Patrol minister would generate
a Range Check Error.
3. Fixed - In Finite Resource games, the deduction of resources from
planets was incorrect.
4. Changed - Reduced the cost of Solar Generators.
NOTE: Solar Generators do not reduce the value of a planet
even in a finite resource game. Also, they generate
points independent of the planet's value.
5. Fixed - Simultaneous Game - If a trade was offered, and then another
message was sent the next turn, the acceptance of the trade
by the other player would be lost (the message would come
through, but not the items).
6. Fixed - Intelligence Projects - Fuel Leak, Anarchy Groups, Ground
Contamination, Food Contamination, and Weather Disruptions
were having a few problems.
7. Added - Combat Replay capability to the log window. By pressing this
button when looking at a combat report, you will be able to
replay the entire combat in a view only mode. This replay
does NOT contain all of the details of the combat such as
exact damages of ships on each turn. It contains the movement
of the ships and their firings against other ships. You can
also point the mouse at a ship and view its design. Combat
Replay is available in both Simultaneous and Turn Based games.
In Simultaneous games, the host must send the .cmb file to
the players for them to be able to replay the combats. Whether
is it is used is determined by the "Create Combat Replay"
field in the Settings.txt file.

Version 1.11:
1. Fixed - Improved routine for checking if filename is valid.
2. Fixed - Fixed religious Talisman for Weapon Platforms (again).
3. Fixed - Ships could initiate first contact but a planet path
was needed to keep it. Now, first contact will
only occur if you see another player's ship, and there
is a planet path.
4. Fixed - Change Recover Units Remotely order to not show Mines
as a selection.

Version 1.10:
1. Fixed - Two objects cannot have the same name in a game (Caused
problems in the combat report).
2. Added - Added Manual button to the Help Window.
3. Fixed - Fixed problem with incrementing old tech cost level by one.
4. Fixed - Increased tech cost of racial tech weapons.
5. Fixed - Fixed problem with tech costs lower than the starting value.
6. Fixed - When a construction item was completed, it and the item below
it were removed from the list.
7. Fixed - Fleets would not always attack during combat.
8. Fixed - AI ships would fire weapons at a target they had taken with an
Allegiance Subverter.
9. Fixed - AI controlled fleets would sometimes clear the combat group for
no reason.
10. Fixed - A nebulae that's destroyed through stellar manipulation could
sometimes still hide items within it.
11. Fixed - A constructed sphere or ring world would use all of the resources
present in the system, not the sector.
12. Added - Added savegame directory path on the Mechanics tab of game setup.
This will allow you to specify a remote path for savegames.
13. Added - A Change Directory button to the Load \ Save game window.

Version 1.09:
1. Fixed - Religious Talismans were not working on Weapon Platforms.
2. Added - Ability to set the fleet leader for a fleet. (Just
left click on the ship in the fleet report).
3. Fixed - A ship with orders to move to a waypoint that was deleted
would cause an error when it tried to show its movement
lines.
4. Fixed - Changed the reproduction and maintenance characteristic
costs a little more (they were too expensive). Also
fixed the AI's use of them.
5. Fixed - A Construction Queue on repeat build would build items
which were not allowed.

Version 1.08:
1. Fixed - You will lost contact with another race if they do not
have any planets left, or there is no path between one
of your planets and one of theirs.
2. Fixed - Typo in the AI Speech "The [Emperor Name] shall remain
our enemies".
3. Fixed - Fixed text problems in Research chapter of manual.
4. Changed - Due to the confusion, made the satellite weapon mount
increase the size of the component by 120%.
5. Added - Population bonuses up to the 10B mark.
6. Changed - Tech Areas Allowed to display almost all of the tech
areas in the tree. The items which cannot be removed are
specified in the TechAreas.txt file.
7. Fixed - Research projects would sometimes show negative completion
times.
8. Fixed - Old games were being loaded at 1 level lower in tech cost.
9. Fixed - Small Incinerator Beam moved to the correct tech area.
10. Fixed - Seeking Parasite component fixed up. Correct speed and damage.
11. Added - Scroll buttons to the Quick Start window to display the first
16 races to choose from.
12. Fixed - AI was getting angry way too fast.
13. Fixed - Added text descriptions to the new facilities indicating if they
are non-cumulative or not.
14. Added - Quickstart gives the player pre-made designs.
15. Fixed - Put additional fixes in to detect the CD player and play the
music.
16. Added - Option to have all players start with planets of the same size.
17. Fixed - Specifying stellar size in the SystemTypes.txt file for a planet
would not work.
18. Fixed - Remote Mining Decreases Asteroid Value option in the Settings.txt
file was not working.
19. Fixed - Changed the Reproduction and Maintenance racial characteristics to
be true percents which are added to your current values. Due to that
the cost was increased, and the max \ min were changed.
20. Fixed - Ship names with a dash at the end of the name next to the number
(ex. "Super-003") would cause a Range Check Error.
21. Fixed - You cannot create stars in a system with a nebulae or a black hole
(Sphere worlds created in a nebulae system would dissappear).
22. Fixed - Increased the fighter shield strength.
23. Fixed - Improved the "Empires allowed to start in the same system" setting
(Empires should NOT be starting in the same systems).
24. Added - Added a note window which is displayed in the Set Construction Queue
Window when you try to add a facility which has system wide abilities
and those abilities are already present in the system.

Version 1.07:
1. Fixed - Access Violation on the AI's turn.
2. Fixed - Incorrect spelling in Tachyon Cannon description.
3. Fixed - When starting a New Game, if you select Finite Resources,
and then did a Generate Map Now, all of the planets in the
game would show 1kT in value.
4. Fixed - Bonuses which effect a planet or a system should not be
cumulative.
5. Fixed - Simultaneous Game: Stellar Manipulations report that the
ship does not have movement remaining when it moves to a
location and tries to execute the order.
6. Fixed - The View and Clear orders buttons should be enabled for
mothballed ships.
7. Fixed - High technology was not calculating its cost correctly.
8. Fixed - Range check error when attempting to drop population on
to a Sphere World using the Drop Population order.
9. Fixed - Experience points for loaded empires which had zero
experience would show as a large negative number.
10. Fixed - Fixed text description for "Score of X% of second player"
in the Victory Conditions window. Also set minimum to 100%.
11. Fixed - Happiness Type would not display correctly when editing an
empire in the Game Setup window.

Version 1.06:
1. Fixed - Ships which are constructing items cannot move. This includes Warp.
2. Added - Base weapon mounts with increased range modifier.
3. Fixed - Simultaneous Game: If the victory conditions were met, then sometimes
the Victory window would not be displayed and the game would just
continue on.
4. Fixed - Fixed confusing text related to Victory Conditions not applying until
after X turns.
5. Fixed - Improved the AI's determination if there are support ships for a
transport trying to land troops to capture a planet.
6. Fixed - Simultaneous Game: AI players would accept a gift message but the items
would not change hands.
7. Fixed - Added "non-cumulative" descriptions to components and facilities.
8. Fixed - Fixed problems with system-wide damage bonus.
9. Fixed - Fixed problems with system-wide combat bonus.
10. Added - Added 3 facilities and 2 weapons to Crystalline Technology.
11. Added - Added 3 facilities and 2 weapons to Temporal Technology.
12. Added - Added 3 facilities and 1 weapon to Psychic Technology.
13. Fixed - Application of planet resource modifiers was not quite right.
14. Fixed - Added spaces to all component and facility names with a dash in them.

Version 1.05:
1. Fixed - Simultaneous Game - Retrofits would sometime result in weird designs
or a log message saying the retrofit was in error.
2. Fixed - AI players were not growing angry at players who were not on their team.
3. Fixed - The AI will still try to build units on planets with maxed out
storage space.
4. Changed - All bases now get a 50% modifier to maintenance cost.
5. Fixed - Defensive intelligence projects would sometimes show negative points.
6. Fixed - Large numbers of fighters were taking too long in combat.
7. Changed - Increased the cost of defensive intelligence projects.
8. Note - Defensive projects are effective while they are in progress. In addition,
more defensive projects are better than just one.
9. Fixed - Sometimes fleets would uncloak from turn to turn.
10. Fixed - Sometimes a ship with a spaceyard would not allow you to set its
construction queue (this was usually for ships that could cloak).
11. Note - A ship that is cloaked cannot construct anything. If you cloak a ship
that is currently constructing something, its queue will be cleared.
12. Fixed - Clicking from one satellite group to another would not display the unit
grid.
13. Fixed - Sometimes a happiness event would say that they were from winning battles
when in fact the battles had been lost.
14. Changed - Planetary rebellion has now become more difficult. In addition, there is a
chance that the rebellion will forms its own government instead of joining
your empire.
15. Fixed - The combat notification window will have the third empire be overlapped by
the begin button.
16. Fixed - AI should not design colony ships with Multiplex Tracking or Combat Sensors.
17. Fixed - The default fleet name would sometimes be the same as an existing fleet. This
has been changed so that the name will represent the total number of fleets
that you have ever built.
18. Fixed - There were spelling errors in some of the data files.

Version 1.04:
1. Added - "Scrap Facil Types" button to colony window.
2. Fixed - Shard Cannon V and VI damage should be different.
3. Fixed - Starting a new game from within a tutorial game would leave the
tutorial icon.
4. Fixed - If you scrap a spaceyard on a planet, any ships in the construction
queue will be removed.
5. Changed - Increased speeds of seekers and fighters. Made fighters harder to hit.
Decrease damage of Point Defense Cannons. Thanks to AJCaton!
6. Fixed - Made Intel Defense more effective.
7. Fixed - Seekers should self-destruct if they are targeted on anything that
the seeker's owner now owns (like captured planets).
8. Changed - Increased size of repair bays to 150kT.
9. Fixed - Transfer window would displays ships that you did not own.
10. Fixed - Tractor\Repulser beams would still move ships on top of each other.
11. Fixed - Mines would show up in combat.
12. Fixed - Combat Log will now say "Taken" for a ship if it is captured in combat
(instead of "Dead").
13. Fixed - Save\Load dialog was not wrapping the filenames.
14. Fixed - Trade and Research Alliance text was not showing completely in the Politics
Window.
15. Fixed - Nebulae and Asteroids were not showing in combat simulations as map filling.
16. Changed - Satellite Groups can fire on as many targets as there are satellites, or up
to the multiplex level. Fighter Groups can only ever fire on one target.
17. Fixed - The AI would sometime stop firing when it had weapons available.
18. Fixed - AI should not fire the Allegiance Subverter against a ship with a Master
Computer.

Version 1.03:
1. Fixed - Ground combat would continue from turn to turn even after a
peace treaty or a surrender.
2. Fixed - Experience bug would sometimes cause experience points for an
empire to jump up to 2000000.
3. Changed - Increased maximum experience from 2M to 500M.
4. Fixed - Planet creation would error if the system did not have a name.
5. Fixed - Simultaneous Game: AI was not always responding to political Messages.
6. Fixed - Simultaneous Game: AI could respond on the very next turn to a message
that was sent. This should be 2 turns later.
7. Fixed - If the leader of a combat group is blocked in their movement, then the
combat group will be disbanded.
8. Fixed - Replicant center would only produce your population. They will now
proportionately produce the populations that are present on the planet.
9. Fixed - When you viewed your Empire Status, and you have ships performing remote
mining, you would lose value in your asteroids. (Dough!)
10. Changed - Tweaked the happiness modifiers on reproduction. They now range from
-5% to +5% to reproduction based on happiness.
11. Added - A confirmation message if you want to remove the first item in the
construction queue.
12. Fixed - Internal damage to fighters was not correct in combat.
13. Fixed - Simultaneous Game: Problems where changes made in a game turn would not
be reflected in the next turn. This may be fixed. We think it was caused
by running the Movement Replay.




------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Aloid]

Wow... I just pooped my shorts...
This is great stuff!

Aloid

[Bakunine]

I´ve never seen any product getting so many upgrades and so fast. It seems that MM works 48 hours a day! It´s my first time posting here and it´s very unusual to see a good quality forum like this. Can anyone tell me when the new patch will be available.

[Talenn]

Looks good so far. I like the 'AI wont tolerate' stuff. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Any luck on getting a master list of exactly which files contain changes? I would LOVE this feature and I think it will be necessary if people intend to have custom data sets. It will take far too long to File Compare EVERY data file in the game to scan for changes.

Thanx,
Talenn

[Danny]

Looks like the bugs I've been seeing have been fixed, but can't you pull an NVIDIA and post new Versions daily as beta's with a "Use at your own risk warning?"

------------------
I AM Canadian.

[Voidhawk]

Superb. I think in all my 29 years of living on this earth I MAY have used that word twice. Superb. There, that makes four.

Thanks for the update, Richard, just what I've been looking for. I will go to bed happy now and dream of getting systematically slaughtered by merciless aliens. Ahh...

[Bakunine]

New Versions daily as beta's with a "Use at your own risk warning?"
Danny, great idea!
I would love that and to MM that could be productive. So it looks like it would make everione happy.

-------------------
I´m Portuguese http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Mephisto]

Thanks Richard for this great news. As I am trying to mod some of the ship designs it is always usefull to know what MM is planing. I don't want to spent a lot of time tweaking and fixing something when MM already has done this. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[lnielsen]

I was expecting to see retrofiting of weapon platforms on the list. I have all my cargo space consumed on planets with obsolete weapons.

Long term I would like to see diferent strategies for diferent types of targets (seaking, direct, unarmed). This may be fixed by the optimal/max firing range mods.

[jowe01]

Great, this seems to address the most urgent AI stuff.
I do not want to appear an eternal pain, but hopefully things like AI memory (of attacks and their outcome, of minefields,...), AI identification of "dangerous areas", AI target evaluation, AI "strategy", etc. will also be addressed soon.
I am looking forward to this patch for the time being.

[Courageous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Talenn:
Any luck on getting a master list of exactly which files contain changes? I would LOVE this feature and I think it will be necessary if people intend to have custom data sets. It will take far too long to File Compare EVERY data file in the game to scan for changes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get CVS; this will allow you to merge your
changes with theirs and prompt you when there
is a conflict. Try http://www.wincvs.org

C//

[Comar]

Believe me, they keep the beta testers hopping! We are usually seeing 2 to 3 patches a week. They are working as fast and hard as they can to make this the best game you have ever played. Don't be surprised if they get there.

[Taqwus]

Nifty. I'm definitely curious about what changes were made to optimal/max-range strategies and so forth; right now, I find myself using tactical for almost every battle (except, say, fast attack ship vs colony ship, or planet known to be undefended because I'd just finished an attack there).

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[C4]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Comar:
Believe me, they keep the beta testers hopping! We are usually seeing 2 to 3 patches a week. They are working as fast and hard as they can to make this the best game you have ever played. Don't be surprised if they get there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sounds good to me.

[Courageous]

How does one get access to the betas?
Do you apply at Malfador?

C//

[Talenn]

Yes, I'm sure everyone and their mother would like to access the beta's as they come out too. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

FWIW, I would, of course, like to look into it as well. Coming from the 'modding' point of view, I'd like to see some of the changes and provide some input in the 'creative' stages as well.

If anyone at SG or MM is interesting picking up any new testers, please let me know. I've done testing for various other mods and tweaks (Close Combat, TANKS!, TOAW) and am familiar with NDA's etc.

Hehe...hmm, that came out kind of 'resume-looking'...oops. Anyways, just figured I'd offer since I seem to be spending an awful lot of time messing with this game, forum and the data anyways. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Talenn

[Socialist]

the main thing i want to see is a TPC/IP ability to play a game...saveable and workable. Email with auto fights have little interest to me.

im sure some diehard wargamers would actually like to play "Online" over time rather than turn a day ..jees thats just depressing.


less work on Ai..more work on Tcp/ip...learning a game then playing others it the point of the endeavor, an AI (at our technology today) cannot stand up to a human without some sort of cheat codes....

Basically, i really dont want to play a computer..its just a interface to play others. i would like to see a good stable...
and i mean stable..way to play overnet. it shouldnt be hard on turn based game like this.

my two cents worth. and yes..the game is excellent.



------------------
Waves his Red flag

Socialist

[Resident Alien]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Socialist:

&lt;snip&gt;
Basically, i really dont want to play a computer..its just a interface to play others. i would like to see a good stable...
and i mean stable..way to play overnet. it shouldnt be hard on turn based game like this.

my two cents worth. and yes..the game is excellent.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would vote for better AI as top priority.

My experience is that coordinating a group of players to be Online at the same time is very difficult. This is caused by differing timezones, personal commitments to work and family, business travel, unreliable connections from some players frustrating the others.

Even finding a reliable group of 4 pbem players and maintaining a game other a couple of months can be quite difficult. Large Groups of tcp/ip direct connect would be harder.

If you can find a hard core group of reliable players with plenty of time and good connections for all night sessions then tcp/ip would be a lot of fun.

Personally I wouldn't be able to manage more than a couple of 2 hour sessions a week at best. Not going to get very far at that rate of play.

My priorities are a reasonably credible AI so that I can play for an hour or two when I have time, followed by simulataneous PBEM, then if that all works direct tcp/ip would be a nice to have.

[disabled]

If I recall, MM only spends a few hours a day on SE4.

Plus all these new betas, while great for the game, is driving me up a wall becuase I keep needing to adjust my custom AI scripts and technologies.

------------------
--------------------
HADRIAN AVENTINE
snpacifica@yahoo.com
http://www.hyperionbase.com

[Psitticine]

Richard,

Thank you very much for the update! This is very exciting stuff! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Socialist]

I understand your position..yep. lots of solo playrs out there.i agree

well MM got back to me today and said that they are coming out with patch for that
early next year, good enough for me..(gives me time to learn game better ..grin)

thats all i needed to know was that they were going to try.


PS. smaller games with 4 or so players, maybe more..could be played 2-4 hours on weekends (or hell, 10 hour game if my child is entertained..grin)

hope to play some TCP/IP games when they do bring it out...

------------------
Waves his Red flag

Socialist

[Jubala]

Socialist, that's great news! Looking forward to play a TCP/IP game or two.

[Seawolf]

Beta's are only avail to the beta testors which have been locked for now ( I think)

------------------
Seawolf on the prowl

[Comar]

Let's see... Seawolf locked up. Yep, sounds about right :}

[Seawolf]

Only in every ladies fantasy http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif Comar.

I meant the beta testers have been selected and there are currently no openings.

------------------
Seawolf on the prowl

[Freyland]

We have all been beta-testers, if you haven't noticed.

Jonathan

[Courageous]

Bah. You clearly don't play that many
computer games. SEIV is far more "finished"
than many games which are released to the
market and then patched at most ONCE. This
is a very good game and quite stable by
the standards of such things.

This is a very high quality production.

C//

[DirectorTsaarx]

BTW, if y'all want to see a turn-based game that plays over a LAN via TCP/IP, look at www.freeciv.org. (http://www.freeciv.org.) It's a Version of Civilization, developed for Linux, that does exactly what Socialist (and a few others) have been looking for. I'm not certain how SE4 combat would fit into the model (imagine waiting for someone to finish a tactical combat involving 30-40 ships and 100 fighters on a side!).

While I'm thinking about it, what about porting SE4 to other OS's? Run SE4 on a Mac? or a Linux box? OS/2? Any other Favorites?

Just some things to think about.

Long live the Moebius Consortium!!!!

[Freyland]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Courageous:
Bah. You clearly don't play that many
computer games. SEIV is far more "finished"
than many games which are released to the
market and then patched at most ONCE. This
is a very good game and quite stable by
the standards of such things.

This is a very high quality production.

C//<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Courageous, you are a blind fool. You speak without knowledge, and therefore without wisdom. Your comment on my experience on playing games is so foolish as to require no explanation. Now look again at the list of fixes in the first post of this thread. Go ahead, we'll wait.........
Very good. I would not be surprised if this was the first time you looked. Those are *fixes*, my ignorant friend, fixes. Things put into the game which did not work. Look through the postings on this board. The AI is a joke. Inconsistent. The experienced Modd'ers have said more than once that all the different AI respond the same, regardless of whether they are serene or Bloodthirsty. But you probably never read those threads, either, did you? Please go back to your regularly scheduled blissful ignorance and quit drooling on your keyboard.

Jonathan

[Richard]

BTW do you guys remember this game called Civ II? It had 42 patch revisions post release.

Just an observation...

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Jourin]

Freyland,

Your attack is uncalled for.

If you had been a fan of SEIII you would know the history behind SEIV. SEIV was delayed many times because it wasn't finished and MM has a high quality standard - the best I have seen from ANY company. We the customer put extreme pressure on MM to release the game even if it is not ready - with comments like - we don't care about features or bugs just release the game.

MM agreed that SEIV would be released minus some features (like a good AI) as long as it had no obvious bugs. But MM also stated that they would continue to support the game with numerous patches to add these features and also fix any bugs that were discovered.

So do not attack MM for releasing an unfinished game - attack the large vocal customer base that demanded MM release the game unfinished.

The big difference between MM and ALL other companies is that MM will keep their word and finish the game, while all the other big companies just take your money and run.

I was against an early release, but am now glad MM did it. The game is fun to play in its current state, but more important MM listens to and incorporates our suggestions. Yes we are all beta testers, but unlike other companies, MM actually listens to and uses our input. A game designed to specific customer specs is the best game there can be.

So be patient. If you do not want to play now, come back in 6 months and then drool at the game - but then don't complain that an important feature wasn't added because you choose not to participate.

The game support from MM is the standard that All other companies should copy, so be happy that you are getting the best support on the market.

[Lerchey]

Jourin,

Well said. And I could not agree more. I've been a SE IV beta tester from the outset, and Aaron at Malfador LISTENS and FIXES things when they are broken. Further, suggestions are listened to, and when both practical and good, are added to the game.

In fact, while it's somewhat off topic, I'd say that this is true of all of the game producers that Shrapnel distributes for. I'm also a WDK 2K beta tester and Boku Strategy Games is just as good. They enchance and improve their products constantly - taking guidance and feedback from their customers.

THIS is how game companies should be run.

Is SE IV incomplete? Yes, in ways it is. The AI is mediocre, but the game is FULL of tech and features. And as a PBEM game (which I prefer; my lack of dedicated time for gaming makes RTS impractical for me) it's excellent.

If you want to complain about some aspect of the game, don't ***** at each other on the forum. TELL the people at Malfador. It's their product and they DO listen.

Flame off.

John

[Resident Alien]

If you want to call somebody an idiot just write it in simple words please. The "clever" usenet over the top BS style is just so boring for the audience.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freyland:

Courageous, you are a blind fool. You speak without knowledge, and therefore without wisdom. Your comment on my experience on playing games is so foolish as to require no explanation. Now look again at the list of fixes in the first post of this thread. Go ahead, we'll wait.........
Very good. I would not be surprised if this was the first time you looked. Those are *fixes*, my ignorant friend, fixes. Things put into the game which did not work. Look through the postings on this board. The AI is a joke. Inconsistent. The experienced Modd'ers have said more than once that all the different AI respond the same, regardless of whether they are serene or Bloodthirsty. But you probably never read those threads, either, did you? Please go back to your regularly scheduled blissful ignorance and quit drooling on your keyboard.

Jonathan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Comar]

This isn't the place for a flame war. If you want to go after each other, take it somewhere else. If you want to talk about the game, this is the place.

Is the game perfect? No. I'm sure MM is well aware of it. Are they supporting it and making it better? Yes. In fact, they even ask for your imput to make it the game you want it to be. Are we, the players, perfect? No. Can we have a lot of fun with this game and each other? Yep. If you want to fight, join or start a game and have at it. And may the best man, plant, crystal, etc. win.

[Freyland]

Uh, Jourin? In the post to which you refer, I did not "attack" MM, I "attacked" Courageous. Furthermore, you continue to say it is not MM's fault that the game is incomplete, that it is the "fan base's" fault. Huh? Did someone hack into his machine, steal the program, professionally burn it into disks, and convince Shrapnel it was done? I think not. The responsibility rests well. Furthermore, you continue to talk about how great MM is about patches and committment. As I stated in another thread on the matter, I applaud him for that. Nothing changes that a game is supposed to be "complete" when it is released (and paid for). Your blind faith is leaving you just that, blind. I know I am angering some people, but I am allowed my opinion, and frankly, deep down you all know I am right. You just are too devoted to accept it. The word is "sycophant", I believe.

[B]Resident Alien /[B] stated, "If you want to call somebody an idiot just write it in simple words please.

Okay... you're an idiot. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Jonathan

[Arc.Smiloid]

Better smooth this over before ugly turns to fugly...

Courageous was referring to SEIV's status relevant to other games on the market that were released in worse states than SEIV.. He was implying that it could have been worse, but this is well made up for by MM's reputation of pleasing the people.. I heard something along the lines of 17 patches for SEIII!!!

While the game may not have been perfect, at least MM is putting the blood and sweat into fixing bugs and improving the game. Many people are waiting for the game to be 'completed' before they resume playing it. And we have proof that he is working on it with the posted changes they are working on.

But here's the logic to releasing the game before it was truly ready:

Having released it to the public we all have played it, and we all suggest changes to improve the game. Now instead of Aaron and a select few beta testers giving ideas, nearly a thousand brilliant minds are giving thoughts to improving the game (The Modders especially). So it gets built properly the first time without having to go back and completely overhaul the game to get it right.
(We all basically get to be Beta Testers, and we all have a voice!)

Just be thankful MM isn't going to take all our suggestions and make us pay for an expansion pack to complete the game. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/tongue.gif
(Better not give him ideas eh?)

I am not at all ashamed I bought this game in its incompleteness. I'm happy to support MM and his hard work!

[Talenn]

Well, dollar per fun value, I've already gotten my money's worth out of this game....even if I put it on the shelf and never played it again.

I agree that it might have gone out a bit prematurely in the AI department. I think that is one critical element in any game like this where the multiplayer potential is solely a LONG term commitment to a PBEM. I'm willing to bet that most folks want to play it 'out of the box' and have a challenging game.

BUT, I'm also convinced (and using SE3 as a guideline) that MM is doing everything possible to enhancce the game experience. I much prefer it this way to the 'finished product' that has serious issues that you get from many other companies. At least with SE4 I feel like I have a voice in upcoming patches and that counts for ALOT!

I think what is necessary is a constant flow of info BOTH ways. The designer(s) gets input from the fan base and has the responsibility to reciprocate with info and patches in a timely manner. I think MM is doing an admirable job of this. I'd like to see it continue.

Here's hoping that the newest patch is coming up soon at that will at least appease the masses for the immediate future! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Talenn

[Bakunine]

Isn´t the problem that the MM want to make a AI that doesn´t cheat?
Well if he does that I think he will make history.
Until know I never played a 4X in which the AI doesn´t cheat at least in the higher levels.
I´ve seen here Posts saying that if computers can beat man in chess than it would be "easy" to beat us in a game like this.

1- Chess rules contain little number of variables. SE4 contains thousands.

2-Others say we would need a Deep Blue to run the game to make the AI really clever. Well I think that there´s nobody here, unless there´s here a really good chess player that would win a chess game in my old 48K Spectrum.

Others (very few) complain that they were fooled and bought a incomplete game. Well it was easy to avoid that.
Download the demo (a really good to evaluate tool since it´s not a tutorial, it´s not a mission, it´s a game with some limitacions) and try it.

Being a somekind of BetaTester isn't in my wishes but to many who bought the game is. So it's a think that everyone should respect.

I only started contact with SE series in SE4 and by seeing that MM released the game earlier by request of the long time Users only show the respect he as for the long time supporters (one think that is very rare). In a purely marketing and bussiness way of view it would be much more profitable to wait a few months and launch a much more perfect game.

[Jubala]

For those who think SE4 wasn't finished on release, go buy Braveheart and you'll see unfinished in all it's glory. The game always crashed at a certain ingame date (don't remember how many turns, but not many, between 30 and 50 I think), half the features advertised on the box didn't work or where not even there to not work. The one(two?) patch(es?) released didn't even fix anything, it(they?) simply disabled the features that didn't work resulting in an even more incomplete game. And the AI was so poor that it wasn't much of a challenge to beat the game before it chrashed. I never did it myself as I was disgusted by the frequent crashes but some dedicated fans on the Boards reported doing it. Eventually even they gave up and the board turned into very ugly bash the developer rants. That game is a prime example of creating major hype about a game, then releasing a piss poor product to an unsuspecting public that bought it hook line and sinker while the developers took their money and ran.

Now compare the above with SE4. I rest my case.

[Seawolf]

A point that has been missed by all I think in this thread the reason why MM puts out the SE series is to make money!. How much do you think it cost to burn and mail the CD's? Don't you think that Aaron and the others have bills to be paid? I agree that a game should be complet but hey there hasn't been any game that didn't need clarification or improvement in my 20 + years of gamming.

Also MM stated that the game was still evolving and since they are working on it and are making patches for it means in the end, at no additional cost by the way, you will have a complete game.

Since this is a democracy, well it was til this election that is, you can voice your opinion. I suggest that you continure to say what is wrong with it so we can get it fixed faster.

P.S Since they sold so many I guess your view i sin the minority http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thus endth the sermon

------------------
Seawolf on the prowl

[gbraley]

On the one hand, those pointing out that most games need patches these days and that MM released the game early "under pressure" from their fans understandably defend MM.

However, you can hardly fault those that paid for the game expecting it to be complete. Saying "we'll fix it later" might, MIGHT be acceptible for hardware compatability issues, but no software product should be released as "gold" when it is not complete. The fact that "everyone else is doing it" is hardly an excuse. Had it been released as an AI-less multiplayer game, or as a pay-to-play beta Version, noone would be complaining, they'd just be whining for an AI or for the final Version respectively. I've done beta testing myself (Europa Universalis is the latest, if anyone cares), and I know about the pressures on developers to get a product to market.

I guess my point is that, as good as SEIV is, it was clearly not really ready for release. Those who are offended by this are quite justified to do some complaining; those who are trying to defend MM in this shouldn't take it personally! Of course, flaming each other is just dumb, no matter what side you are taking -- accomplishes nothing but to feed childlike egos.

Scott

[Wabbit]

Does anyone read review or message Boards before ever purchasing things? It took 5 minutes of reading to find out that yes there are things that are still being worked on (Fixes and development). But in the same time I knew this was the game for me to buy.
Easily customizable
A true 4X game without all the glitz
Did I mention no glitz!! Most of the time kills gameplay
A great Fan community
Great support from the Developer
Delphi! nuff said there!
Praying the new patch comes out soon... wanna play with the new changes!

[Repo Man]

Don't ya'll think that the release will make the game that much better? Essentially, the game is going through a *huge* beta test right now via the gum chewing public.

I wonder how many people griping about the problems would be griping about another delay in the release.

Geez.

[Tenryu]

I couldn't agree more with you, Repro Man.
I have owned and played and enjoyed EVERY Version of SE. They have always succeded in providing an excellent product. By all means, continue to post your concerns and wish lists. I'm sure MM is hard at work trying to meet your collective desires. But I, for one, am kinda sick of coming into the forum to check what's up and having to sift through all the *****'n and moaning. I think some of you have no idea just how much time and effort it takes to design, build, balance and develop a computer game of this sort. Give MM time. I am certain that their efforts are focused on constant and dramatic improvements of the current game.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Repo Man:
Don't ya'll think that the release will make the game that much better? Essentially, the game is going through a *huge* beta test right now via the gum chewing public.

I wonder how many people griping about the problems would be griping about another delay in the release.

Geez. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Freyland]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tenryu:
I think some of you have no idea just how much time and effort it takes to design, build, balance and develop a computer game of this sort. Give MM time<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Shakes head. Blind......

Jonathan

[Richard]

Guys please chill out.

The game WAS ready when shipped. Was everything perfect? No. To make a game of this sort perfect would have taken quite awhile. In it's current state I will take it up against ANY other Space based 4X game made in the Last 5 years. In fact it is a compliment that you guys are so pissed because we ahve "raised" the bar so to speak for this sort of game.

The patch should be out on the 19th followed by a break for the testers and MM for the holidays.

Here are the latest fixes as of tonight:

Version 1.17:
1. Fixed - The Amonkrie had their Demeanor and Culture values swapped.
2. Fixed - Combat Replay was only displaying the Last turn of combat.
3. Fixed - Combat Replay is starting with the first move of the first ship
already completed.
4. Fixed - The Xiati Main bitmap was an incorrect size.
5. Fixed - Troops on a planet you own will now increase the happiness of
the populations on that planet.
6. Fixed - Tactical Combat: If you fired weapons from your ship, your
point defense cannons would not always fire at incoming seekers
on that turn.
7. Added - Empire Option for Next/Previous Ship button to skip fleets.
8. Fixed - The Trade disrupted intelligence event should not occur if there
is no real trade between two empires.
9. Fixed - Some game option flags would keep the value from the Last game if
it was from a previous Version of SE4 (most notably "Allow
Intelligence projects").
10. Fixed - Tarrifs that an empire received would be added in even in excess
of the max storage for that empire.
11. Fixed - Right-clicking on the flag for a satellite group would not work.
12. Fixed - Tarrifs were exceeding the points available when payed.
13. Fixed - Using an existing empire would sometimes cause the reproduction
and maintenance cost to be increased from what the empire had
in the Last game.
14. Changed - There is now a limit per game turn in the number of fighters\
satellites\mines that can be launched. There is no limit to
the number of units that can be recovered. The Unit Transfer
window has been modified to display the numbers that can be
launched in a turn per ship.
NOTE: All 3 levels of mine layers, fighter bays, and satellites
bays have been changed to that they can only launch 1
unit per game turn or combat turn. (This was to make it
a little more interesting)
15. Fixed - Sorting by date in the Load\Save dialog should put the most
recent file on top.
16. Fixed - Designs for dead empires were showing up in the combat simulator
list.
17. Fixed - A range check error would occur when a planet was rammed.
18. Fixed - During game creation, sometimes a player's planets would end
up in a nebulae, black hole, or asteroid system. A new flag
had been added to the SystemTypes.txt file which indicates
whether a system type allows an empire to start in it.


Version 1.16:
1. Fixed - Range Check error when using the Maximum Range strategy in
combat.
2. Fixed - Added a check for the Movement Replay to make sure that the
replay file matched up with the current game turn.



------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Richard]

BTW lay off the personal attacks guys. Everyone has been fairly cool but some of you are getting close to locking this thread down.

Just take it easy http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Jubala]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:
7. Added - Empire Option for Next/Previous Ship button to skip fleets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES!

[This message has been edited by Jubala (edited 14 December 2000).]

[Talenn]

Richard:

Actually, with a few exceptions, I dont think many people are 'pissed' so to speak. I think they are a bit frustrated perhaps. The game is REALLY that good that anything that detracts from the enjoyment is grounds for a lynching! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think discussions like this one and others on this forum are very good for the game. I've seen many of the bugs and oddities that people complained about here showing up as 'fixed' or 'changed' or in the 'readmes' you've been posting. To me, that shows that input as valuable and being acted upon which is a VERY good thing.

I'd hate to see that type of feedback get locked up due to a few people's overly zealous remarks.

From my experience in these types of forums, if people more or less ignore the worst of the comments the better. Sure, if it looks like someone is genuinely interested in helping out, by all means people should jump in and discuss it but its clear that some people's opinion will not be altered at the present time and its a waste of time and energy for people to rise to the baiting.

Talenn

[Comar]

Well put.

[Psitticine]

Just my 2¢: there are always a few trolls lurking under any forum's bridge. I think most folks have learned to just ignore them. If you read through threads like this and just "read around" the more childish Posts, there is still a lot worth reading.

Such as this, for example:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
17. Fixed - A range check error would occur when a planet was rammed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never even thought of trying to crash a ship into a planet! Will this be a viable tactic after the new patch, I wonder? It is very cool the way new things are always being revealed. 8)


[This message has been edited by Psitticine (edited 14 December 2000).]

[Comar]

Yeah. I wondered who came up with that one. I have to admit, I would not build one of my ships to ram it into a planet. Seems kinda like a waste of time. A ship with missles or direct fire weapons will do the job just fine and be ready for the next one.

[Jubala]

The ship was probably getting the living snot beaten out of it and was about to die so the owner decided to ram into the planet that was killing it. I know damn well I have done that with my ships but only against other ships. Like you I never contemplated ramming a planet. If it can actually be called ramming at all. The term doesn't seem quite right. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Psitticine]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Comar:
Yeah. I wondered who came up with that one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably the Baron. I'm beginning to think he's Steve Allen in disguise. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Freyland]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psitticine:
[B]Just my 2¢: there are always a few trolls lurking under any forum's bridge. I think most folks have learned to just ignore them. If you read through threads like this and just "read around" the more childish Posts, there is still a lot worth reading.

/[B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ahhh.. Complain about game = troll. Very nice. I have a right to my opinion, and I continue to make it clear, because after each true statement, another sycophant states how much better this game is than some other game, or generally ignores the facts. I again direct you to the wonderful list of fixes listed throughout this post. Very nice, in fact wonderful since I have been fiending for a game in this genre for some time. However, the length of the list simply supports my commentary, and people take offense instead of acknowledging reality. Good luck to MM, and I praise him for his continued support of his products. However, don't ask for my money for an incomplete game; label the box "incomplete game", or advertise it as such on the Ordering website. Hah. That will be the day!

Troll indeed. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Jonathan

[Talenn]

Freyland:

Against better judgement I will say this, but only because I've seen you as a contibuting member over at the CM forum.


"Ahhh.. Complain about game = troll."

Incorrect. Many of us have 'complained about the game' Most of us are pointing out flaws in hopes that they can rectified. There is a difference between constructive and 'destructive' criticism.

I believe the 'Troll' was due to the 'attacks' (if you will) on other Forumers (Courageous for one). You can state your opinion without denigrating the opinions of others. Most of us have managed to do so.

So, FWIW, YES, you are entitled to your opinion. NO, every who enjoys the game and thinks highly of the company who releases it is not a sycophant. Most people here are freely admitting that there is certainly room for improvement. They arent 'blindly' defending the game as is.

Finally, if the game/company/forum bothers you so much, no one is forcing you to come here and post. You've spoken your mind. You know the situation now. You dont have to agree with it, but that the way it is. What possible good can Posts like "Shakes head. Blind......" accomplish?

For the sake of everyone here, please let it go and check back once the next patch is out and you might be a satisfied customer. If not, well, maybe trying selling your copy on Ebay? I dont think SG takes returns, but I'm not sure.


Talenn

[Jubala]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:
5. Fixed - Troops on a planet you own will now increase the happiness of the populations on that planet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait just a minute! Does this mean that lifting troops off a newly conquered planet will make the population more angry as well? Even rebel/riot? I hope so but even if not it will at least provide an incentive to keep the troops dirtside after invasion.

[Richard]

Freyland...

I have no problem with you complaining, unlike some other Boards that won't get you Banned. HOwever calling people a "fool" and such can. I am just asking you to keep it civil.

As far as the game being complete it is very much so. Any game can be better but again I dare you to find a comparable game that has come out in the Last 3-5 years that is better.

You won't find one.

Aaron has a long history for listening to his community and that won't change with us...

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Baron Munchausen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jubala:
Wait just a minute! Does this mean that lifting troops off a newly conquered planet will make the population more angry as well? Even rebel/riot? I hope so but even if not it will at least provide an incentive to keep the troops dirtside after invasion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, removing troops does not CAUSE anger. But now leaving them will help to reduce it. So, you don't necessarily have to leave the fleet that just conquered the planet sitting there for 5 turns just to control the anger levels. You can leave the troops instead and move on. Also, you can put a few troops on planets in a system with enemy activity and reduce the unhappiness it causes.

[C4]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jourin:

MM agreed that SEIV would be released minus some features (like a good AI) as long as it had no obvious bugs. But MM also stated that they would continue to support the game with numerous patches to add these features and also fix any bugs that were discovered.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is the problem in a nutshell. If MM KNOWINGLY released SEIV without good AI, it would have been nice to advise the customers of this so they could decide to buy or not based on this critical fact.

IF MM didn't know the AI was this poor, and it is poor, then he never played his own game.

I'm very pleased that MM is working on bug patches. However, I have never seen poor AI significantly improved in a game that went gold with Gomer Pyle AI. I think in this case the AI is actually being added and not improved....

I hear (loud and clear) that people who have dealt with MM have full confidence he will bring the product up to snuff.

Despite this, in my role as a consumer of this TOP DOLLAR game, I feel misled into buying it and that I threw away hard earned money.

If I had known that good AI was knowingly left out of the game I would never have purchased it until (if) it was added.

Yes, it isn't easy to develop a game, but that's what we pay game developers for.

[Warlord Adamus]

I think this is just a general misconception more than anything. I'm assuming Freyland is pointing to the long list of fixes/improvements and wonders why this wasn't already done before release. Correct me if I'm wrong. You have to keep in mind that MM has always done things this way, even before Shrapnel. The game isn't incomplete, there is just so much depth and tweaking to be done that development continues even after release.

That is not to say what you bought was a bugged game, remember all of the Malfador testers have been playing much more unstable Versions for many, many months. It wouldn't be released if it wasn't ready. I bought SE3 under the same set of circumstances, and to me it was fun seeing a patch every couple of weeks, a patch that wasn't just improvements but things I suggested. I couldn't wait for SE4 to be released because I wanted to see all the cool new mods. Suggest improvements, take a note from tampa, mephisto, talenn etc. and tweak things a bit. Telling us how much you don't like the game repeatedly just gets old, if you're that unsatisfied, just get a new game.


PS: I think that quote is a bit inaccurate, though he has the idea. To my knowledge Aaron never said, "lets release the game minus a good AI". I would imagine he assumed it was a work in progress like the other 85% of people on this forum do.



[This message has been edited by Warlord Adamus (edited 14 December 2000).]

[Taqwus]

One more bug --

It *seems* that if you set a colony ship to Minister control, and you've got both Colonization and Resupply ministers on, that the colony ship's pathing will ignore supply even when a few squares' worth of a detour would suffice. In my current game, a large number of minister-controlled colony ships are currently completely out of supply in a nebula system, even though, IIRC, all of my adjacent systems have resupply depots...

I don't seem to have this problem with pop transports or minelayers -- they normally pay attention. Just the colony pods.

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Courageous]

Poor A.I.? Buy _Ascendancy_. Get back with
me. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

C//

[Baron Munchausen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
One more bug --

It *seems* that if you set a colony ship to Minister control, and you've got both Colonization and Resupply ministers on, that the colony ship's pathing will ignore supply even when a few squares' worth of a detour would suffice. In my current game, a large number of minister-controlled colony ships are currently completely out of supply in a nebula system, even though, IIRC, all of my adjacent systems have resupply depots...

I don't seem to have this problem with pop transports or minelayers -- they normally pay attention. Just the colony pods.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a general problem, actually. Your mine layers and population transports are probably just making short enough journeys that the problem doesn't appear. Any ships moving long distances will go straight to their destination without detouring for resupply even if it would cost no extra moement. You will see this when you send ships somewhere manually. They'll move within one square of a resupply depot and go right by it. "Smart navigation" where the ships use resupply depots any time it would cost no extra movement is something I've wanted for a while. Dunno how hard it would be to implement, though.

[Socialist]

Gentlemen, (ladies)

Overall it seems MM is pretty dedicated on "tweaking" the game, and thats usually not the case with most companies. Have to say the game seems quite complete already and any other extras are added bonus. on bug issues, i never actively look for abuse bugs (ie. mothballing and uping production)
I never felt the need to try to get around "the game" to get ahead. Whats the point in playing to abuse a bug? Winning by using something unethical would remove the personal satisfaction of the win itself. At least it will be fixed in next patch.

Glad to see so many involved in discussion, and with the game creators interest in making the game into the best it can be.

very enjoyable game..i think i will go back and play a bit more.. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Jonny the Red ( uses a happy workers Collective..no empire here) :P

ready to liberate all your empires of their overlords to join the true collective...hehe



------------------
Waves his Red flag

Socialist

[Socialist]

to you Jubala,


i saw your message a while back...add me into your ICQ, so when the Tcp/IP patch comes out later..we can play those long long
Online games :P

jjustice@kc.rr.com

or Socialist...on icq


glad to play you then!

Jonny the Red

------------------
Waves his Red flag

Socialist

[Jourin]

C4

I will defend myself since you quoted me (out of context)

I think MM had a choice. Continue to work with the 50 unpaid beta testers (hey that got a free game and got to play it for x months so I consider them lucky) and fix all the minor problems or release it and continue to improve the game.

The community put pressure on MM to release the game, and MM complied but stated that the game will not be released with any major/obvious bugs.

AI level: The AI in SEIII was very good and it didn't cheat but it evolved. When you first play the game and are more worried about correcting bugs by testing weird scenarios the AI can be stupid and still give you a challenge. Only after humans play numerous games and evolve strategies does the stupidity of the AI show. Other companies compensate by letting the AI cheat and to me that ruins the game. I like playing against an AI that doesn't "cheat"

I think as people play the game and note the stupid things the AI does - then report them back to MM, the AI will improve. I am very good at strategy games and can easily beat most AIs on the top level, yet the AI in SEIII was challenging. I think the AI can evolve in SEIV to also be very challenging.

If you think the AI is doing something stupid - send your reasons why along with your approach plus the save game to MM and MAYBE they will be able to make the AI smarter.

The big difference between MM and ALL other companies is that MM will try while other companies usually just take your money and run.

I will let the matter drop, but please do not quote me out of context.

Thanks

[Noble713]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Courageous:
Poor A.I.? Buy _Ascendancy_. Get back with
me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!!! I remember that game. If the AI in SE4 has the aggressiveness of a sheep, the AI in Ascendancy would be a popsicle stick.

[C4]

Jourin, Let the matter drop or not as it suits you.

I fail to see how your quote was out of context regarding the AI.

Please let me know how you feel your were misrepresented regarding the AI quote and I will be happy to issue you a formal apology if I did take it out of context.

[This message has been edited by C4 (edited 18 December 2000).]

[sogard]

I have been playing both solo and hotseat SPACE EMPIRES IV (SE4) for the past couple of weeks. With the present patch (v1.11), the game is very good. It is sooooo good that I can not wait until tcp/ip play is enabled. I hope that playing SE4 in the turn based mode will also permit one to use the tactical combat option (as this works perfectly in hotseat play). I liked MOO2 in hotseat play rather well; but, SE4 adds whole new dimensions to game play.

I look forward to the release of the new patch and the enabling of tcp/ip play. One nice added feature would be the inclusion of a timer for internet play so that, if you were playing in turn based mode, one could set limits as to how long a player is allowed to make a move (excluding combats, if possible)

[Atrocities]

No presure, but do you think the new patch will be out later this week?

[dmm]

1) Too many complaints about the AI. The truth is that computers are stupid, and it is hard to keep them from doing stupid things. You wind up having to script its behavior, and then it doesn't take a bright human very many games to figure out the flaws.

2) Personally, I don't mind the dumb AI because my time is so limited. I just want to have fun for a few hours. And SEIV delivers.

3) SEIV's AI is comparable to a lot of games that I've played. For example, Red Alert is pretty easy to beat, once you know how. Successive releases in that series have gotten smarter, but are still no match for a good human player. Same with Alpha Centauri.

4) For those who are frustrated by the AI stupidity in certain areas, here are some suggestions:
i) Make some technology unavailable, or just don't use it. Example: Mines, which the AI seems to have lots of trouble with.
ii) Role play. There are tons of options here. Examples: Pretend your race's sense of honor won't allow it to attack an enemy with overwhelming odds. Pretend your race is technophobic. Pretend your race is pacifist. Pretend your race is cowardly. Etc., etc., etc. Use your imagination and have some fun.
iii) Give the AI advantages. Examples: Use the setup button that allows it to produce faster. Don't use all your race points, or use them to enhance role play rather than to insure victory. Give the AI a head start.
iv) Don't exploit known weaknesses that you feel are unrealistic. Examples: Don't use stolen technology immediately; wait a bit. Don't remain allies with two warring AI empires, all the time ignoring their diplomatic ultimatums; choose one and reject the other. Don't demand anyone's home planet as tribute and don't accept it if offered.


Yes, in some ways these suggestions would limit the game, but the point is that you can have a lot of fun with the stupid AI. Then you can remove restrictions as MM improves the AI, and it will be like getting periodic expansion packs.

5) The debate about AI opponents vs human opponents is missing an important point: most games have inherent flaws which will be exploitable by an experienced human opponent, which eventually either ruins the game or turns it into a chess match. So after a while, human players aren't much more fun than AI. But SEIV has a lot of complicatedness and customizability, so hopefully it won't get old so fast. Every time you find "the way to win" you can mod the files and take that way away.

[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 18 December 2000).]

[dmm]

1) Too many complaints about the AI. The truth is that computers are stupid, and it is hard to keep them from doing stupid things. You wind up having to script its behavior, and then it doesn't take a bright human very many games to figure out the flaws.

2) Personally, I don't mind the dumb AI because my time is so limited. I just want to have fun for a few hours. And SEIV delivers.

3) SEIV's AI is comparable to a lot of games that I've played. For example, Red Alert is pretty easy to beat, once you know how. Successive releases in that series have gotten smarter, but are still no match for a good human player. Same with Alpha Centauri.

4) For those who are frustrated by the AI stupidity in certain areas, here are some suggestions:
i) Make some technology unavailable, or just don't use it. Example: Mines, which the AI seems to have lots of trouble with.
ii) Role play. There are tons of options here. Examples: Pretend your race's sense of honor won't allow it to attack an enemy with overwhelming odds. Pretend your race is technophobic. Pretend your race is pacifist. Pretend your race is cowardly. Etc., etc., etc. Use your imagination and have some fun.
iii) Give the AI advantages. Examples: Use the setup button that allows it to produce faster. Don't use all your race points, or use them to enhance role play rather than to insure victory. Give the AI a head start.
iv) Don't exploit known weaknesses that you feel are unrealistic. Examples: Don't use stolen technology immediately; wait a bit. Don't remain allies with two warring AI empires, all the time ignoring their diplomatic ultimatums; choose one and reject the other. Don't demand anyone's home planet as tribute and don't accept it if offered.


Yes, in some ways these suggestions would limit the game, but the point is that you can have a lot of fun with the stupid AI. Then you can remove restrictions as MM improves the AI, and it will be like getting periodic expansion packs.

4) The debate about AI opponents vs human opponents is missing an important point: most games have inherent flaws which will be exploitable by an experienced human opponent, which eventually either ruins the game or turns it into a chess match. So after a while, human players aren't much more fun than AI. But SEIV has a lot of complicatedness and customizability, so hopefully it won't get old so fast. Every time you find "the way to win" you can mod the files and take that way away.

[God Emperor]

Dmm,
Agree with you entirely. I stopped using mines several games ago and have begun to avoid doing things that I know the AI is weak at - still enjoy the game anyway. The ultimate challenge as we all know is human opponents so the AI should be considered as practice. I always try to play in the manner that I would against a human opponent and avoid taking advantage of the AI's blind spots - only the blind spot concerning mines is annoying as it makes it hard to practice tactics.

Anyway, the important thing is that the game system hangs together well, has many options (game and strategy) and is very flexible.

[Freyland]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:


ii) Role play. There are tons of options here. Examples: Pretend your race's sense of honor won't allow it to attack an enemy with overwhelming odds. Pretend your race is technophobic. Pretend your race is pacifist. Pretend your race is cowardly. Etc., etc., etc. Use your imagination and have some fun. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi DMM

I remember doing that with Lords of Magic (awesome game, once fixed {rant, rant})... it was kind of silly that the all-powerful, all-feared Evil Villain could be killed early if you hit his Stack with the right units. So, I "pretended" that to fight Balkoth, my stack had to have a Greater Artifact, otherwise they had to run. Made for interesting games.....

Jonathan

[Talenn]

dmm:

While I agree that the AI will never be up to human level competition, it would be nice if it was at least aggressive in it's attacks. As it is now, it blatantly ignores enemy fleets and worlds even when it has obviously superior firepower. This should not be the case and its something that should be readily fixable. Even SE3 didnt act this way most of the time, so I KNOW that it can be done within the framework of the game system.

Its one thing to 'roleplay' your race etc but its quite another to have to TRY not to win. I occasionally see large AI fleets and think 'cool, this time I actually might have to fight!', but no, next turn their ships are nowhere to be seen. Maybe one or two are left floating around but the rest are gone. Often, its to the scrapyard...

As far as multiplayer etc. Yes, I agree that that will be the true challenge, but at this time its hard to get a game going without the option of TCP-IP etc. PBEM is a HUGE commitment of time. Hotseat is fine, but its problematic getting people together for an ongoing game. So that primarily leaves single player. I'd daresay that most people are in the same boat in this regard and that is the reason for the general outcry about the AI's ability.

Customizing etc are fantastic abilities and will keep the game fresh longer. No doubt there. But you dont have to even look for ways to win the game. As long as you are halfway competent, its not too tough. All the added options in the world wont matter if you can win with ease regardless of what you do.

IMO, a strong(er) AI is a must for a 4X game. The AI must compete and it must give you the immersive feeling of dealing with alien/foreign governments. If it fails to do so, most of the rest doesnt count for much except for the people who can manage to get multiplayer time in.

SE4 is a great game with alot of potential. But lately I find that I am spending more time fiddling with data and graphics than playing. Its just not that much fun to continually pummel the AI even when I give my self 'roleplaying handicaps'. I want the AI to force me to run for cover or at least surprise me every now and then.

I am very much looking forward to the patch in hopes that it makes the game more challenging. No, I dont think it will ever provide the challenge of playing another human (nor should it be expected to), but it should at least look like it is attempting to win. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif IMO it should at least err on the side of aggression rather than on being too passive. That alone would breathe alot of life into the game.

Talenn

[jowe01]

Talenn, I agree 100%. Even when TCP/IP will be possible, there will still be AIs in the game (e.g., its mostly like this when you play CIV II over the web). The AI has to become a challenge if this game is to become a true winner.

Anyway, does anybody have news regarding the status of the new patch ? I mailed Aaron a bug report Last week, and in his answer he said that the patch would be out Last Friday or yesterday at latest. I rather see the delay as a good sign: maybe MM is working to include some real AI improvements (other than increased aggressiveness) before releasing the patch for the Christmas break.

BTW, to the extent that I find the current AI lousy, I find MM's responsiveness great. If you report a bug or make a suggestion, you usually have a short reply the next day. Do not flood them, but why do the programmers amongst you not try to help Aaron a little and send him some AI algorithms (e.g. target identification, "memory", ...)

[Richard]

Aaron found a late bug in the patch and held it back from being released. I should know more today and hopefully we can post it later today.

Thanks for the patience.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Cryptotec88]

Thank you very much for the update Richard!

[sogard]

The following was posted on the "What's New" page for Malfador Machinations:

12/19/00 - SE4 Patch 2 Available
The second patch for Space Empires IV will be available here on 12/20/00. This patch includes all previous patches. It includes numerous bug fixes plus the all new Combat Replay viewer. Much like a vcr, the Combat Replay will allow you to watch combats that are reported in your Log Window. See the manual pages for complete details.

We've added a link on our site to the Global 100 lists. If you like SE4, please take the time to vote for it!

In other news, Malfador Machinations is going on a much-needed vacation. We'll be closed down from December 20th through January 4th. You can still order the game through Shrapnel Games and visit their forums to talk with other players. We will not be answering any emails during this time. As soon as we're back, we'll continue work on the next patch, the Map Editor, and the Multiplayer enhancements!

Hope everyone has a very merry Christmas!

[Richard]

The latest since 1.19.

Version 1.21:
1. Fixed - Range check error when you have 255 systems and you give
a ship orders to move to another system.
2. Fixed - Increased planet finite resource starting values.
3. Added - Added default values in the Settings.txt file for the
Maximum number of ships and units in the game.
4. Fixed - AI was not always using damaged ships or sending them
to be repaired.
5. Fixed - Increased the speed of combat execution.
6. Fixed - AI was not spreading out targeting of seekers based on
anticipated damage to target.
7. Fixed - Fleet leaders were still not detecting correctly when they
were surrounded in combat and should break formation.
8. Fixed - The Drushocka and Praetorian were building fighters with
only Shield Depleters.
9. Fixed - Jubilant has been mispelled for quite a while.
10. Fixed - Added empire files for all empires.
11. Fixed - Krill, Terran, and Toltayan empires were not always using
all of their racial points.
12. Fixed - Combat Replay would not show the vehicle report when moving
from a fighter group to a new fighter group.
13. Fixed - Improved AI's use of fleets.
14. Fixed - Improved AI's used of Planet creators.

Version 1.20:
1. Fixed - A colony with no population could still suffer from
a firestorm event.
2. Fixed - Ground combat would continue on the turn that a surrender
took place.
3. Fixed - High numbers of systems would not work correctly using the
Cluster quadrant layout.
4. Added - Added fields to the Settings.txt file to specify what values
and abilities a newly created storm will receive.
5. Fixed - Changed the text for the Cloaks to say the correct level
of scanning/detection it prevents.
6. Fixed - AI vehicle design files were not using the new ability
names for Combat To Hit Add and Combat to Hit Dec.
7. Fixed - Sometimes a damaged ship that was retrofitted would
result in undamaged components.
8. Fixed - If the order of a construction queue was changed, it was
not clearing the time for the item currently under
construction.
9. Changed - Changed Emergency Build Rate to 150%.
10. Fixed - When you exit a combat replay, the combat music would keep
playing.
11. Fixed - In Tactical Combat, Clear All Group Assignments would not
redraw the display to clear the group icons.
12. Fixed - "Bad Index" error from the Colonies window.
13. Fixed - If a race had a treaty of Subjugation or Protectorate, their
research points would be capped at 50,000.
14. Fixed - The Up Arrow on the Report window would display over the
Comps or Cargo display when closing the Scrap window.
15. Fixed - Fill Build Queue was not checking if the items were valid
for the empires current technology level.
16. Fixed - When loading a previously saved empire into a different player
number than previously, their designs would be messed up.
17. Fixed - Simultaneous Game - The Seeking Attack order would not cleared
if it was targeted on a planet and the colony had been destroyed.
18. Fixed - Improved the AI's scrapping of uneeded facilities in a finite
resource game.
19. Fixed - Remove tech area Ship Construction level 10 (it was empty).
20. Fixed - Decreased the AI's armor usage on their designs.
21. Fixed - Increase the AI's point defense usage on their designs.
22. Fixed - AI was not using its AI Strategy file correctly.
23. Fixed - AI was not giving the Kamikaze ships the correct strategy.
24. Fixed - In a finite resources game, planets would still produce resources
even after they had reached a value of 0.
25. Fixed - If a player's fleet encountered enemy mines in the same sector
as his own mines, he would receive a message about his minefield
being triggered against "enemy" ships.
26. Fixed - Improved the description for the Boarding Parties and Security Stations.
27. Added - Added fields to the Settings.txt file to specify a maximum number of
mines or satellties that a player can have in a sector.
28. Fixed - The Colony Window would display a patch of white if there were a large
number of displayed facilities.
29. Added - Added a confirmation message when you try to send a surrender message.
30. Fixed - Improved the Transport Minister so that they only move populations to
planets with atmospheres they can breathe.
31. Changed - Changed the Path.txt file so that it now lists a new directory to use.
This directory can contain replacements directory for all of the
directories that SE4 uses. If a directory is present in the mod
directory, all of the files that SE4 needs must be present. So if you
replace the Data directory, your new directory must have all of the
data files present. The only exception to this rule is for bitmaps.
If a bitmap cannot be found in a mod directory, the game will then
look back into the original SE4 directory to find it. In this way, you
can replace everything in the game, but not need to include all of the
graphics as well.
32. Fixed - Range check error during combat.
33. Fixed - Point Blank strategy sometimes would cause ships to run away from the
target.
34. Fixed - Range Check Error with a large number of units in a group during combat.
35. Fixed - Range Check Error with huge numbers of shields being generated during combat.
36. Fixed - Range Check Error with a fleet of more than 256 ships during combat.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Kimball]

Is there any word on "Starting Tech Levels?"

[Tenryu]

Sounds great! Thanks Richard.

[Atrocities]

Thanks Richard. This is great to read, and really keeps our interest up. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards (http://www.angelfire.com/zine/cnchome/Shipsets.html)

[Puke]

cool, always good to read these. I hate to grumble, but i think emergency build should be ballanced by increasing the expense incured, not decreasing its effectiveness. just like with the mine sweepers, I feel like features are being removed from the game.

ah well, cant please 'em all.

[Spoo]

Any word on changing the way population/weapons platforms recieve damage?

i.e. certain weapons can kill population but not weapons platforms, and vice-versa.

[RWittman]

I hate to ask the obvious question but, when will the 1.20-1.21 patch be released ?

[Sabre21]

I have 2 issues referencing Richard's post. Item 19 states the removal of Tech 10 for ships since it is empty. I for one use that tech level..I created an entire series of ships for all the races that use Tech level 10. I really don't see a reason to take it out, just provides another option for modders.

The second issue is about a map editor. I know there has been discussion about having one on past Posts. I had been hoping it was to be availabe on this next patch. Any idea if and when this can be expected?

[SirDarwin]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sabre21:
I have 2 issues referencing Richard's post. Item 19 states the removal of Tech 10 for ships since it is empty. I for one use that tech level..I created an entire series of ships for all the races that use Tech level 10. I really don't see a reason to take it out, just provides another option for modders.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if you want that tech level add it back in http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif As a modder you can easily do that, they might as well remove things that a unmodified Version of the game doesn't use.

[ColdSteel]

Thank you, Aaron. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif I think mods will now be much easier to package, install and manage thanks to change #31 listed under v1.20. Can't wait.

[Jubala]

Yes, the mod directory is great. Thanks for the info Richard.

[jowe01]

Mods directory , improved use of AI fleets (if it works) and continous bug elimination, all this is good news. However, I am still missing further AI improvements, especially making the computer opponents finally follow through on their attacks (which may be associated with the AI's retrofit/scrap franzy). Hope this will be addressed before the patcj comes out.

[jowe01]

Mods directory , improved use of AI fleets (if it works) and continous bug elimination, all this is good news. However, I am still missing further AI improvements, especially making the computer opponents finally follow through on their attacks (which may be associated with the AI's retrofit/scrap franzy). Hope this will be addressed before the patcj comes out.

[Emperor Zodd]

What about the cloaking minister???????

[Mac]

Sounds wonderful. Do we have a release date?

[Tampa_Gamer]

Richard - thanks for this info. Sounds like the changes to the AI_Strategy file and fleets should help us AI modders a lot. I just hope the Cloaking minister is fixed prior to release http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif (for the Darlok'sake of course)

Mac- In an e-mail I received from Aaron early Last week, he indicated that the patch should be out "early next month" So I would assume that if testing goes well, we should see it out by the end of this week or early next week.

[Emperor Zodd]

Aaron told me today he is aware of the cloaking problem and he is trying to fix it in time for the next patch.

I hope he is successfull.

[This message has been edited by Emperor Zodd (edited 29 January 2001).]

[raynor]

No... no cloaking. Not that!

That would be awesome. But I'm very, very scared now. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[raynor]

Has anyone reported the error message you get when you accidentally press 'L' to launch fighters, and you've selected a fighter group instead of the carrier?

Is the contact info for reporting bugs in the readme files with the game?

The other issue I wish they would work on deals with the 'Repeat Project' option in the build queues. I can't tell you how frustrating it is when you find you have 15 space ports on a planet. Or worse, you spend 20 turns wasting resources buiding facilities when the planet is full...

Of course, the memory leak is still the most annoying. I think it is definitely related to fighters.

[jowe01]

Tampa, I hope the "AI's better use of fleets" is not due only to a modification of the "AI strategy" file. Everybody can modify this and you mod-masters are already doing a very good job. The true reasons for the AI weakness however lie in the hardcoded parts of the program. I hope it is there that the AI fleet tactics will be improved.

Furthermore, I think that the AI should carry out its offensives much more consequently !! (Will have to put that at the end of each post - worked for Cathargo, why shouldn't it work for AI stupidity ?)

[Q]

Cetero censeo human players should be destroyed.

[Richard]

BTW I won't have much chance to answer questions as we are busy preparing for a convention in Alabama we will be going to in a few weeks.

Any questions should be directed to Malfador via email if possible, thanks!

Version 1.22:
1. Fixed - Fixed a few memory leaks.
2. Fixed - AI was not using cloaking correctly.
3. Fixed - Fixed up some of the constraints on what a cloaked ship
can do.
4. Fixed - AI will choose Stealth Armor for its designs instead of
Cloaking Devices.
5. Fixed - AI would fill up remaining space on its designs with
regular shield generators (not phased shield generators).
6. Fixed - Maximum number of ships and units per player in a game was
not being enforced correctly. In Game Setup, Maximum number
of units (in space) has been changed so that the units can be
in space or in cargo. Increased the starting maximums for
units.
7. Fixed - Games using Multiplayer Save Game Path would try to get
the combat replay and statistics file from this location,
instead of where the savegame was loaded from.
8. Fixed - Ships destroyed with ramming were not providing experience.
9. Fixed - Ships destroyed with ramming were not add in to the design
statistics.
10. Fixed - Units carried by a ship were not being tallied in the unit's
design statistics.
11. Fixed - If an item that is in a trade has been lost, destroyed,
captured, etc. before the trade is excepted, it will be listed
in the trade as "unavailable".
12. Fixed - Jettisoned units weren't being tallied in that unit's
design statistics.
13. Fixed - Ships or Units that are received as gifts, will also have
their design available as an Enemy Design.
14. Fixed - The notes in the Galaxy Window would allow you to see the
names of systems that you had not explored.
15. Fixed - Planets that are in systems that you have seen, were not
showing a green or red star if they were colonizable.
16. Fixed - Omnipresent view of systems would allow you to see
cloaked ships.
17. Fixed - Added a new restriction that you cannot edit a prototype
design if it has been added to one of your construction
queues.
18. Fixed - Change directory in the Load Game window would error if the
Multiplayer Save Game Path was invalid.
19. Fixed - Improved the AI ship design based on the terrific "Mephisto
Mod".
20. Fixed - Transports with a "Capture Planet" strategy were not attempting
to drop troops on the planet.
21. Fixed - Colony planets in the Combat Simulator window were showing the
incorrect player color for the population bars (or possibly no
bars at all).
22. Fixed - Planets should not show up in the Combat Simulator's Fleet
Transfer window.
23. Fixed - Type priorities settings for targeting were not working in
certain situations.
24. Fixed - The Ship\Planet report for a piece in a combat simulation
would sometimes show the wrong status icons.
25. Fixed - Sometimes multiple stats and event files would be copied for
each savegame.
26. Fixed - For a Launch All Units order, if a unit failed to launch
early in the list, then all later units in the list would
not be attempted.
27. Fixed - Sometimes the treaty grid would show two races having two
different treaties with each other.
28. Fixed - If a unit group was at a location in space with other unit
Groups, then the unit Groups amount number and the number
of space objects present would overlap.
29. Fixed - Sometimes the Colonies Window (Facilities tab) would list
the same facility type on multiple lines.
30. Fixed - Ai was not checking correctly for nearby enemies to potential
colonization sites. Improved the AI colonization determination
a bit.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Derek]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
BTW I won't have much chance to answer questions as we are busy preparing for a convention in Alabama we will be going to in a few weeks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, one would hope the next patch, whether 1.22, 1.23, 1.24, etc... will be out before you go to the convention?


Derek

[Emperor Zodd]

3. Fixed - Fixed up some of the constraints on what a cloaked ship
can do.

Can any of you Beta testers explain this better?

[Mephisto]

This is truly an honour! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[jpinard]

Mephisto - I'm so happy to see you in the patch! Aaron's use of external mods is a testament to a developer who is "for the gamer's".

Thanks Aaron!

OK, can we have it now??

[pathfinder]

now this is too Kewl!

THE developer adds a gamer MOD in a patch.

[HreDaak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:

19. Fixed - Improved the AI ship design based on the terrific "Mephisto Mod".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now this fix simply rocks! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[Crab Legs]

I can see the fan support will be growing stronger and I LOVE it! I am amazed how much devotion to the fans is displayed in the patches and updates! Thanks for your wonderful care for us all!

------------------
"Doctors, glad I'm not sick!"

[Instar]

Zodd: Cloaked ships were able to do too many things, and we needed to stop them from doing some of those things (I cant remember any specific ones)
WTG Mephisto!

[Tampa_Gamer]

Mephisto - way to go!!



[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 06 February 2001).]

[pathfinder]

bump.

[Atrocities]

Congrats Mephisto http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards (http://www.angelfire.com/zine/cnchome/Shipsets.html)

[sogard]

Does anyone have any information on when the next SE4 patch is coming out? How about tcp/ip?

I am currently playing a four person hotseat game. We are having a very good time; but, long for the day when we can all log on to the net and play instead of getting into our cars and meeting and some convenient location. Tcp/ip will simply make this great game fantastic!

[ColdSteel]

Latest word on the patch is that it *might* be out by the end of this month. By all accounts it is going to address even more stuff than is currently listed here. Should be a big one.

[Emperor Zodd]

Aaron told me Last week that it will take at least 2 months with a lot of testing before TCP/IP will be ready.

[sogard]

TWO months or more before tcp/ip is available? That is very sad news. SE4 would take on a whole new dimension with it. My hotseat games have been a bLast and all my opponants would love to just be able to log on and continue the game. Besides, all you solo play artists would get a real test in your game skills if you faced a human rather than an AI which makes you look like a legend in your own mind.

[jimbob55]

I don't just look like a legend in my own mind. I AM a legend in my own mind....
The AI agrees. So there!

[Richard]

And again...

Version 1.23:
1. Fixed - AI should only build one sensor buoy at a time.
2. Fixed - Some of the empire files were saved with all of the ministers
turned on.
3. Fixed - In some circumstances, the AI will design Base Space Yards with
more than one space yard.
4. Fixed - Cloaked ships were triggering population unhappiness.
5. Fixed - A race that has been destroyed should show "Conquered" for the
treaty in its race report window.
6. Added - Added a new tab to the Strategies window called "Damage". This
tab allows you to set the percentage damage you want to inflict
on different kinds of enemy ships before moving on to a new
target. So for ships, if it says 80%, then your ships will
damage the ship up to 80% and then will switch to a new target.
If no other targets are available, your ships will go back and
finish off those remaining ships. There is also a setting for
"Damage targets until all weapons gone". If this is set true,
then your ships will fire on enemy ships until all of their
weapons are gone, regardless of the percentage damage setting.
7. Fixed - Sometimes the AI Resupply minister would give a Divide by Zero
error.
8. Fixed - The Last patch caused the display of the letters "RSY" in the
system window to not work.
9. Fixed - The AI was not balancing armed and non-armed ships correctly
when considering a trade.
10. Fixed - Typo in the SectType.txt file.
11. Fixed - Mothballed ships were blockading enemy planets.
12. Fixed - Improved the AI's use of seeking weapons in combat.
13. Fixed - Improved the AI's firing of weapons before or after moving.
14. Fixed - Sometimes the AI would not fire seekers on a target.
15. Fixed - Tactical Combat: When a seeker destroyed a colony, there would
be no explosion.
16. Fixed - Tactical Combat: When seekers were launched by a planet, the
selection icon would show for the planet and all of the seekers
at the same time.
17. Fixed - Maximum Weapons Range strategy would sometimes cause the ship to
move closer to the target.
18. Fixed - You should only be able to scrap satellite Groups and fighter
Groups if a spaceyard is present.
19. Fixed - Combat Replay would show the shields for a ship that was hit with
a shield skipping weapon.
20. Fixed - You should not be able to add a minefield to a combat simulation.
21. Fixed - Vehicles in the Combat Simulation design list were not being
sorted by name.
22. Fixed - Improved the AI's determination of when to skip an item in its
purchase list if there is no cargo space available to hold it.
23. Fixed - The AI would try to build defense bases at planets without
spaceyards.
24. Fixed - Mothballed ships should not effect happiness at all.
25. Change - Increased the amount of happiness troops on a planet generate.
26. Change - Increased the amount of happiness a ship in orbit generates for
the planet.
27. Fixed - Added the field "Maximum population for abandon planet order" to
Settings.txt. This will prevent people from abandoning a planet
with a full population of rioting people.
28. Fixed - After an abandon planet, a new colony on the planet would start
at the same happiness as the Last population.
29. Change - Changed the starting happiness of colonies to "Happy" instead of
"Jubilant".
30. Fixed - A mothballed ship that was the only ship in a system could not be
attacked by the other players.
31. Fixed - Simultaneous Game: Reasons for a ship failing to load cargo, drop
cargo, or lay mines were not being added to the log.
32. Change - Cloaked ships cannot lay mines, launch units, or recover units.
33. Fixed - System level point modifiers were being summed instead of max'd.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[SunDevil]

Wow! Waiting for this patch to come out is worse than waiting for this game during christmas break.

Does anyone know how much is left for Aaron to do before he releases the patch? I mean, he already has fixed about 80 things since the Last patch. Is this going to be the patch that ends all in-game fixes for a while?

[SunDevil]

Correct that, Aaron has fixed/revised 113 issues so far. Thanks MM!

[Baron Munchausen]

Between the file fixes that have been discovered independently by the modders and these combat fixes, I think you'll find this next patch is practically a different game. The AI used to handicap itself in all sorts of ways in combat, like moving TOWARDS the enemy after firing missiles or firing seekers on each ship before it had finished firing direct fire weapons -- and destroying some of the targets of the seekers before they could even move. With the build bottleneck broken and the combat smarts added you'll be fighting for your life against these modded AIs... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Emperor Zodd]

6. Added - Added a new tab to the Strategies window called "Damage". This
tab allows you to set the percentage damage you want to inflict
on different kinds of enemy ships before moving on to a new
target. So for ships, if it says 80%, then your ships will
damage the ship up to 80% and then will switch to a new target.
If no other targets are available, your ships will go back and
finish off those remaining ships. There is also a setting for
"Damage targets until all weapons gone". If this is set true,
then your ships will fire on enemy ships until all of their
weapons are gone, regardless of the percentage damage setting.


Great addition!!!

[Richard]

You never know we have a tough crows of testers, including the Baron himself http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.

I am very please, personally, to see all of this going so well.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[JDL]

While everybody is at this patching, is there a way to patch the game so that when you select a group of fighters and deselect some of the rocket pods, then fire, ALL the pods don't fire? You should not have to fire them ALL.

[Emperor Zodd]

Maybe we won't have to use AI bonus' anymore.

[Seawolf]

I have started playing against new AI... not easy not easy at all.

------------------
Seawolf on the prowl

[Puke]

33. Fixed - System level point modifiers were being summed instead of max'd.

whats max'd mean? they apply the system percent modifier after the planetary modifier instead of adding both together and applying the sum?

[Drake]

That's the way the system is now though...

If you have a 20% mineral bonus, 20% from happiness, 10% from population, 30% from a planet facility, and 30% from a system facility, you don't get +110%. The bonuses you see in the abilities window of your planet are summed (+50% in this case), and the facility and system facility bonus are applied in turn. That ends up being (production + 50% bonus) = 1.5x production. Then 1.5 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 2.535, or a bonus of 153.5%. At least, that's what I've found when doing testing trying to max my score.

-Drake

[Zanthis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
33. Fixed - System level point modifiers were being summed instead of max'd.

whats max'd mean?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Might mean that if you had two bonuses from a system facility, say +15 and +20, it gave you +35 when it was supposed to only take the higher (or max) of +20.

[Warlord Adamus]

Just like to add to what Baron said. The AI is MUCH tougher. I thought I'd start a new game and just kinda mill around through it, before you know it I'm in 7th place ! Arghh,cloaked ships are a pain..

[Drake]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zanthis:
Might mean that if you had two bonuses from a system facility, say +15 and +20, it gave you +35 when it was supposed to only take the higher (or max) of +20.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't found it to be doing this, but maybe some more testing is required. Has anyone else seen a specific facility type added system-wide vs taking the max in the system?

-Drake

[Emperor Zodd]

Are you beta testers getting beat by the AI without giving it a bonus??????

Please be more specific.

[Atrocities]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>27. Fixed - Added the field "Maximum population for abandon planet order" to
Settings.txt. This will prevent people from abandoning a planet
with a full population of rioting people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

D'oh! WHO TOLD THEM ABOUT THIS? HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM? I guess they do read the board, and me way bad for exploiting this so they fixed it.

------------------
"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards (http://www.angelfire.com/zine/cnchome/Shipsets.html)

[pathfinder]

tsk, tsk, now we can't have those riotous punks walk the "space plank"; guess we just have to glass them now http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif


hehe

[Tomgs]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drake:
I haven't found it to be doing this, but maybe some more testing is required. Has anyone else seen a specific facility type added system-wide vs taking the max in the system?

-Drake<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I found that the Time shrines and System Robotiod facilities both work together even though they say they don't this is probably the fix for that.

[Zanthis]

On "Damage until weapons destroyed" setting vs WPs:

Even if this does stop your ships from shooting on planets after the WPs are gone, it will Last only until all other ships are gone and then your ships will finish off the planet.

[Jubala]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:
6. Added - Added a new tab to the Strategies window called "Damage". This tab allows you to set the percentage damage you want to inflict on different kinds of enemy ships before moving on to a new target. So for ships, if it says 80%, then your ships will damage the ship up to 80% and then will switch to a new target. If no other targets are available, your ships will go back and finish off those remaining ships. There is also a setting for "Damage targets until all weapons gone". If this is set true, then your ships will fire on enemy ships until all of their weapons are gone, regardless of the percentage damage setting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this mean that if you set "Damage targets until all weapons gone" to true your ships will stop firing at planets when all weapon platforms are gone? I certainly hope so anyway.

And thanks for the update Richard! Much appreciated.

[Jubala]

Damn! Any news on the lobbying for weapon platforms as specific targets?

[nmoppa]

It IS worth waiting for the patch when we know the betatesters are kicked there a... by the improved AI http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

In the mean time I'm playing SE IV in a hugh universe of 250 systems (I know for sure this game is NOT finished before the next patch comes out!) using races from the combined Modders pack 1.01 and 15 races selected by the computer). Man, this is a thrill! And as a bonus I added (as a betatester) Mephisto's "Narn in development". If you want to have a challenge for the time being, try this!
Everytime I hit the next turn button I wonder IF I still will be alive!

No reason to doubt, Version 1.19 from AARON/MM/SHRAPNEL http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif can be a real challenge (with a little help from, oh blessed for the existence, all of us SE LOVERS/MODDERS http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif).

Keep up the good works, you guys, and try to convince your partner (if any) SE IV is much more important than anything else they might come up with http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

------------------
PERHAPS THIS IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE &lt;Worf facing another critical fight&gt;

[This message has been edited by nmoppa (edited 10 February 2001).]

[Lastseer]

I have seen that the patch is expected at the end of the month. Why not release intermediate patches with each group of fixes. Two benefits:

More testers.
We get intermediate fixes to some of the more annoying problems.

[SunDevil]

I like that idea a lot.

[Puke]

I like this idea alot too, but unfortuneatly its probalby not do-able. even if you put the early patches in a 'beta patch' section to be downloaded by 'experienced / testers' only, everyone would want to download them and then Shrap/MM customer services would be swamped with people sending in requests for fixes, suggestions, or complaints about it not working.

more testers is not always a good thing, you can only have as many as a company can adequatly support.

[Lastseer]

That can not really be the issue. As it is they must still be getting a large amount of suggestions and just queueing them up, to concentrate of feedback from the official beta testers until the patch is released. If intermediate beta-patches were released, there is no reason they still couldn't concentrate on the feedback from the official beta testers and queue up the other email. Of course there would be more of it. But so what, queue it up.

If someone has a problem with an intermediate patch making things unworkable in some part of their game, they can always go back to the Last official Version or workable beta patch.

However as it stands now the AI is no challenge for me. The game sits idle on my hard drive for the three weeks until the patch is released and I can go back to missing large amounts of sleep. I'd rather deal with instability in game or rules just to get more of a challenge.

[This message has been edited by Lastseer (edited 12 February 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

Puke is right. You need to control what you are working on and set limits for the patch.
Other patches can be used to fix/add to the game. You can't allow the programmer to be overwhelmed, even if the ideas are great.

[Emperor Zodd]

Good news!

Aaron told me today that the patch should be out this week!

[tictoc]

Hey Lastseer you better crank the old drive up ready http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif hehe

tic

[nmoppa]

THANKS, Zodd. We can't wait for it to arrive http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif

------------------
PERHAPS THIS IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE &lt;Worf facing another critical fight&gt;

[God Emperor]

Excellent!!!!

[Londo]

Let's see, if the patch is due out this week...and it is already Tuesday... hmmm I better catch up on my sleep ASAP because I feel a few sleepless nights coming on real soon!

------------------
Vir! You have made a mess of this post once again, now give me a large cup of brivari so that I may begin to forget the bad times and remember the glory of the great Centauri Republic.

[greghacke]

I pray it doesn't come out tommorrow. my g/f will kill me if I spend the day playing SE4... Something about February 14th... can never remember...

[tictoc]

what date did you say?...14th! oh s**t it's my anniversary, sorry gotta go and find a store open and get a card.

tic

[Sinapus]

Looks like it won't be out until next week so those of you who are not dateless goobers like myself can breathe easier. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[RWittman]

Hey Sinapus, Where is this "next week" info comming from ? Are you giving the dateless one a hard time or is this real info.

[ColdSteel]

It's on the MM site under news.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>02/13/01 - UK Distributor
We now have a distributor for SE4 in the United Kingdom! You can order directly from Strategic Plus Software if you live in Europe and want to avoid some of the shipping charges. Oh, and the next patch is coming first thing next week!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Richard]

Yep we set this up this week, more to come in the future on such things http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Sinapus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RWittman:
Hey Sinapus, Where is this "next week" info comming from ? Are you giving the dateless one a hard time or is this real info.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check the MM site. Latest update says next week.

[Sinapus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:
And again...

25. Change - Increased the amount of happiness troops on a planet generate.
26. Change - Increased the amount of happiness a ship in orbit generates for
the planet.
29. Change - Changed the starting happiness of colonies to "Happy" instead of
"Jubilant".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, my mind is fried since I just posted this article asking if it was an increase and it says "increased" up there. *SIGH*

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

What is this thing called sleep?


------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[This message has been edited by Sinapus (edited 16 February 2001).]

[raynor]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sinapus:
Check the MM site. Latest update says next week.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally found this on their site. Yeah, I'm blind...

Can someone please tell MM that while getting a UK distributor is *also* good news, next time, could they create a separate entry for the news of the upcoming patch? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif