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General Woundwort

May 17th, 2004, 12:47 PM

Not the worst movie I've seen (see another thread for my votes on those), but definitely not the best, either. But my friends and I did have a good laugh out of one scene. As Ms. Foster is approaching the launch device, with an apprehensive look on her face, I cracked (in a deep Darth Vader voice, MST3K style) "And now, your Highness, we will discuss the location of your hidden rebel base."

Immediately, my roommate shot back, in a Yoda-voice...

"Overactor you are."

We had to rewind the tape for two minutes to catch up what we missed for rolling on the floor laughing. You just had to have been there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Randallw

May 17th, 2004, 02:04 PM

I neither liked nor disliked. Not much action at the end, but I did like the proof of what she said happened.

Fyron

May 17th, 2004, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
I thought it was one of the worst films I had ever numbed my arse for. That's just my opinion though. I'll second that... the alien was her father, couldn't even show himself... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Raging Deadstar

May 17th, 2004, 07:16 PM

I was wondering why this thread seemed strangely familliar.

I saw it and i had to admit i thought it was interesting, i think i saw it in 1998, of course then i was 12 years old so i wasn't as brushed up in Sci-fi as i am now.

Not a great film, althougth the ending was cool when i saw it.

Maybe have to rewatch it and get a more updated opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Katchoo

May 17th, 2004, 07:49 PM

I thought the movie was great. I saw it about a week before it was released at one of those movie 'sneak peaks' they do every so often. Plus, it was part of a double-header: watch Contact first, and then stay to watch Batman & Robin. Needless to say, I didn't stay to watch B&R (already saw it; loathed it).

Anyhoo, Before they mention the "12(?) minutes of static" tape, I felt you were left wondering wether she actually travelled through the Worm Hole, or wether she just had a near death experience (going through a bright passage, seeing a loved one). I thought it was a pretty powerful notion.

And yes, Jodie Foster is certainly hot, even if she's about 10 years older than I am.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Fyron

May 17th, 2004, 07:51 PM

All that religious mumbo jumbo was certainly detracting...

dogscoff

May 17th, 2004, 09:40 PM

Might have been a worthwhile watch if they had cut it down to about 25 minutes. A few good ideas, but nowhere near enough to justify the length of it.
EDIT: And they needed a proper alien too. All that crappy "taking on a familair form from your memory because we spent the entire special effects budget on that stupid spinning tower thing" didn't do it for me.

[ May 17, 2004, 20:43: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Atrocities

May 17th, 2004, 09:47 PM

As many of you know, I do not Subscribe to the belief that there is life out there more advanved than ours. In fact until an alien makes contact with us, or lands its ship on the white house lawn I will always believe that we are alone.

Now to the contact issue, if there is life out there, and I know there is not, then I feel the most likely way that it will contact us is through the methods seen in Contact. Space is simply to vast to travel. However a message sent along a laser, or something simular, at the speed of light could theoretically make ti to another planet. However, we would have to identify this planet, or they us, and we both would have to have simular technology to receive, or send the message.

So again, I say it will never happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Raging Deadstar

May 17th, 2004, 10:02 PM

I personally myself do believe that there is life out there. Although if it is more advanced, the same or less than us can be anyones guess (and if we could even compare their advancement to ourselves is mindboggling.)

Although, if there is life out there i personally believe there's very little chance of us meeting them, and more than 99% sure it won't be in my lifespan, or for a great length time. The complications are too great for us as a species.

But the film had some good points (i had a quick read up of it to refresh my memory) and if done better (maybe sticking closer to the book it wa sbased on) may have been much cooler.

I'd watch it again though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Renegade 13

May 18th, 2004, 01:06 AM

The universe has been around for (give or take) 14 billion years. Humanity has been around a fraction of that. There may have, at one time in the distant past been alien life. There may be now. But the distances are too great.

Also, we can not concieve of life different from out own very well. So who really knows?

Back to the movie: I still think it wasn't too bad. I even saw it twice. But some people say I have weird taste, so.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Narrew

May 18th, 2004, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
All that religious mumbo jumbo was certainly detracting... I would normally agree with you, but in this case, Jodi's character didn't believe in God and questioned what's his names proof that his God was real, he said Faith and yet at the end, it was Faith that she had to use to convince everyone what she experienced was real. Anyway, I thought it was a clever thread inside the movie.

I also agree, reluctantly, that we are alone, unless there is a civilization that uses tight beam communications.

narf poit chez BOOM

May 18th, 2004, 07:13 AM

1: The universe is infinite.
2: Therefore, no matter the ratio of races/stars, as long as the second is not infinite, their are an infinite number of races.

henk brouwer

May 18th, 2004, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
Its a very well done movie. I felt that they left themselves a lot of room for a sequel, but never got around to it. Maybe it wasn't a huge success, so a sequel never got made. Too bad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif They could easily have made a sequel since the movie seems to end somewhere halfway the story.

The Book by Carl Sagan went on for quite a while (read it ages ago, hope I remember this correctly) *spoilers ahead*. Later in the story a huge discovery was made regarding the number pi (3,14~) which was always believed to be build up of random numbers when you precicely calculate it.
They discovered that after calculating to like the 10E-10000th digit, binary code started showing up wich formed, when written out, a circle. The only explanation was that god apparently put his autograph somewhere in the number pi, a natural constant, proving his existence.

Indeed lots of religious mumbo-jumbo in this movie, usually not really my thing, but I thought it was a good movie (but the book was better)

Atrocities

May 18th, 2004, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
1: The universe is infinite.
2: Therefore, no matter the ratio of races/stars, as long as the second is not infinite, their are an infinite number of races. Speculation, no proof.

Stone Mill

May 18th, 2004, 04:42 PM

I enjoyed this movie. I liked the irony weaved into it.

As for Foster fans... I think she's cute too... but fellas, you are out of luck... you don't have the right equipment for her... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

dogscoff

May 18th, 2004, 04:45 PM

1: The universe is infinite.
2: Therefore, no matter the ratio of races/stars, as long as the second is not infinite, their are an infinite number of races.
And don't forget what the hitchhiker's guide has to say on the subject:
"THE UNIVERSE: Some Information to help you live in it.

POPULATION: NONE

It is known that there is an infinite number of worlds, but not every one is inhabited. Therefore there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so if every planet in the Universe has a population of zero then the entire population of the Universe must be zero, and any people you may actually meet from time to time are merely products of a deranged imagination."

Douglas Adams rocks, and the HHG will live forever.

Atrocities

May 18th, 2004, 04:55 PM

Like I said, until one of those aliens lands on the white house lawn and says "I come in peace, take me to your leader" I will Subscribe to the fact that life does not exsist elsewhere in the universe.

Planet life and single celled organizms excluded.

narf poit chez BOOM

May 18th, 2004, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
1: The universe is infinite.
2: Therefore, no matter the ratio of races/stars, as long as the second is not infinite, their are an infinite number of races. Speculation, no proof. <hr /></blockquote>So, if the universe has a wall, what's behind that wall?

geoschmo

May 18th, 2004, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
So, if the universe has a wall, what's behind that wall? The other side of the wall.

Captain Kwok

May 19th, 2004, 12:08 AM

The movie was alright, but I wasn't thrilled with some of the changes made to the story in the book, but then that always happens when a book is brought to screen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Atrocities

May 19th, 2004, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Atrocities:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
1: The universe is infinite.
2: Therefore, no matter the ratio of races/stars, as long as the second is not infinite, their are an infinite number of races. Speculation, no proof. <hr /></blockquote>So, if the universe has a wall, what's behind that wall? <hr /></blockquote>Your speculating again.

Fyron

May 19th, 2004, 12:31 AM

AT, you are just avoiding answering the question. Space is either finite or infinite. If it is finite, what is on the other side of it? What is on the other side of the border of empty nothingness? More nothingness? That would be more space... This would be part of a proof by contradiction that it is infinite in size...

Atrocities

May 19th, 2004, 12:39 AM

Renegade 13

May 19th, 2004, 01:21 AM

Its simply a question that we as humans can not imagine the answer to. We can not comprehend or imagine something that is unimaginable from our human viewpoint. We have no frame of reference.

Renegade 13

May 19th, 2004, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
As for Foster fans... I think she's cute too... but fellas, you are out of luck... you don't have the right equipment for her... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Huh??

geoschmo

May 19th, 2004, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
AT, you are just avoiding answering the question. Space is either finite or infinite. If it is finite, what is on the other side of it? What is on the other side of the border of empty nothingness? More nothingness? That would be more space... This would be part of a proof by contradiction that it is infinite in size... This is an interesting mind exersize, but it's not any sort of proof. For one thing, space is not nothing. It's most definetly something. Saying that space is nothing is like saying that zero is not a number.

If the universe is finite, what's beyond it could be truely nothing, or it could be something else all together. But whether it's something, or nothing doesn't make it any more a part of the universe. Because the universe is not everything that is, it is merely everything that is part of the universe. So there is your proof that the universe is finite. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you represent all the matter in the universe as some numbers, then the space between the matter could be said to be zero. Then beyond the edge of the universe would be L.

[ May 19, 2004, 01:19: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Aiken

May 19th, 2004, 02:33 AM

Do you really imagine that universe has some kind of border or wall if it's infinite? But 4-dimensional sphere (torus or anything) has no borders.

narf poit chez BOOM

May 19th, 2004, 03:24 AM

And beyond that border would be the possibility of life.

No matter how you cut it, as long as you don't twist the universe up like a pretzel, there's an infinite amount of life out there. Including other races.
Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
AT, you are just avoiding answering the question. Space is either finite or infinite. If it is finite, what is on the other side of it? What is on the other side of the border of empty nothingness? More nothingness? That would be more space... This would be part of a proof by contradiction that it is infinite in size... This is an interesting mind exersize, but it's not any sort of proof. For one thing, space is not nothing. It's most definetly something. Saying that space is nothing is like saying that zero is not a number.

If the universe is finite, what's beyond it could be truely nothing, or it could be something else all together. But whether it's something, or nothing doesn't make it any more a part of the universe. Because the universe is not everything that is, it is merely everything that is part of the universe. So there is your proof that the universe is finite. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you represent all the matter in the universe as some numbers, then the space between the matter could be said to be zero. Then beyond the edge of the universe would be L. <hr /></blockquote>

geoschmo

May 19th, 2004, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
And beyond that border would be the possibility of life.

No matter how you cut it, as long as you don't twist the universe up like a pretzel, there's an infinite amount of life out there. Including other races.
Ah, but you cannot say that for sure. If beyond the border is nothing, how can there be life in nothing? If it is not nothing, but something beyond the border of the finite universe, then there may be the possibility of life. But the question is how many intelligent species exsist in the universe, not how many intelligent species exsist in the universe and beyond. So, you see, the total number of intelligent species in the universe is clearly finite. Greater than or equal to one, or zero depending on whether you believe us to be an intelligent species, but not infintie.

narf poit chez BOOM

May 19th, 2004, 05:16 AM

*Whacks Geo*

And beleive me, that's an appropriate responce.

Oh, a second point...I find that most people don't seem to be able to understand that nothing means nothing and therefore does not have a value. Note that I did not say cannot have a value, but does not have a value. Doesn't have a place to put a value, either. Doesn't have anything, isn't anything, because it's nothing!

I'm just a little iratated by metaphysical nonsense.

Not you. Your clearly making up nonsense for fun.

Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
And beyond that border would be the possibility of life.

No matter how you cut it, as long as you don't twist the universe up like a pretzel, there's an infinite amount of life out there. Including other races.
Ah, but you cannot say that for sure. If beyond the border is nothing, how can there be life in nothing? If it is not nothing, but something beyond the border of the finite universe, then there may be the possibility of life. But the question is how many intelligent species exsist in the universe, not how many intelligent species exsist in the universe and beyond. So, you see, the total number of intelligent species in the universe is clearly finite. Greater than or equal to one, or zero depending on whether you believe us to be an intelligent species, but not infintie. <hr /></blockquote>

Renegade 13

May 19th, 2004, 06:11 AM

It's all irrelevant anyways. What does it matter? It has no effect on our everyday lives, and, although it's an interesting discussion, it really doesn't matter!! Where/If the universe is finite/infinite and where and what lies beyond the 'edge' of the universe...NO ONE KNOWS!! No one can even guess with any degree of accuracy. And it's most likely a problem that will not be solved within any of our lifetimes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

May 19th, 2004, 06:54 AM

Yes, in one sense. In another, it's important.

dogscoff

May 19th, 2004, 10:42 AM

OK... moving on a little:

Who here thinks that indisputable evidence of life (whether microbial or bigger, past or present) will be found on Mars? Show of hands please.

If we imagine for a minute that such evidence *is* found, what does that do to everyone's beliefs regarding extra-terrestrial intelligence? If life can appear on *two* different planets within a single star system, surely that pushes the Drake equation figures way up.

Would that be enough to change At's mind?

Atrocities

May 19th, 2004, 03:07 PM

What if there is no universe? What if it is just our minds way of rationalizing the emptiness of our own souls?

I don't think we will ever find evidence of humanoid life on Mars or any other planet for that matter. When you figure out how unique events had to be in order for the universe to spawn us, then you begin to understand how truly rare we are. We are so rare that the chances for having another humanoid race, or any race remotely similar to us is about 1 followed by enough zeros to circle the known universe into infinity. That�s a very large number, so large that we currently do not have a definition or name for it.

I hate how shows like ST, SW, B5, and other make the galaxy out to be this thriving utopia of life when in fact and more likely than not, we are the only sentient being, that is similar to us, in the galaxy.

Think of it this way, you have a 7 number lotto with a number range from 1 to 99, and everyone in the world has submitted a ticket with their 7 numbers. The chances for there being more than one wining number are about 1 in 5 billion. That my friends could also be the odds of a planet like earth existing else where in our galaxy.

Mars lost, or perhaps never had a strong electro magnetic field and any vegetation or life would have been swept away by the harsh solar winds long ago. If not for our own electro magnetic shield we too would be a dead world.

No when you think about how rare our planet is, and how unique we are to it, then the logic of our exsistance comes into focus, we are an oddity, an enigma of the universe. We are perhaps the only sentient race in our galaxy and I believe this firmly.

I sincerely doubt that we will ever build a space fleet and explore the stars because I fear that we will have destroyed ourselves long before we could have invented the technology to do so.

We are so arrogant to think that there is life out there because we can imagine it. It can also be said that we are arrogant to believe that there is no life out there, but right now, there is NO proof either way. There is only speculation and hope. And until one of them contact us, or land on the white house lawn, I am resigned to the belief that we are alone.

[ May 19, 2004, 14:10: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Grauzone

May 19th, 2004, 03:33 PM

If Atrocities has right, we have a heavy burden on our shoulders. We have to spread life in the whole UNIVERSE. A big duty... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Before we do so we schold stop to throw bombs on our neighbours and pollute our unique biosphere, and concentrate our power on more important areas of human possibilities... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Atrocities

May 19th, 2004, 05:09 PM

LOL - A true 4 x player if I ever heard of one.

Suicide Junkie

May 19th, 2004, 06:50 PM

Who here thinks that indisputable evidence of life (whether microbial or bigger, past or present) will be found on Mars? Show of hands please.Indisputable, never.
Evidence good enough for 99% of the people here, probably.

There are bound to be more conspiracy theorists than you can shake a stick at...

Raging Deadstar

May 19th, 2004, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
There are bound to be more conspiracy theorists than you can shake a stick at... The funniest Conspiracy Theory is the one about my countries Royal Family being Alien Lizards from outer space Lol! Yeah, i can see it now, A huge humanoid green lizard in white gloves and a big pink hat!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

dogscoff

May 19th, 2004, 07:31 PM

are about 1 in 5 billion. That my friends could also be the odds of a planet like earth existing else where in our galaxy.
Atrocities, Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. *

From some website I just googled:
Some 100 billion galaxies are visible to modern telescopes and the total number in the universe is believed to exceed this number,So even if your just-made-up numbers are accurate, and the chances of a second earth like planet in a galaxy is 5 billion, that means there are at least (1oob/5b) = 20 earth-like planets in the universe. And that's the chance of there being a second earth-like in a galaxy- presumably the chances of their being a first one would be even higher. WIth some 3 billion stars in our galaxy alone, you really can't ignore Drake's equation.

If Atrocities has right, we have a heavy burden on our shoulders. We have to spread life in the whole UNIVERSE. A big duty...
Hey baby, want to help me populate the universe? You know I have a VERY big duty...

*thanks again to Douglas Adams.

Wardad

May 19th, 2004, 07:41 PM

Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson are going camping. They pitch their tent under the stars and go to sleep. Sometime in the middle of the night Holmes wakes Watson up:

�Watson, look up at the stars, and tell me what you deduce.�

Watson says, �I see millions of stars and even if a few of those have planets, it�s quite likely there are some planets like Earth, and if there are a few planets like Earth out there, there might also be life.�

Holmes replies: �Watson, you idiot, somebody stole our tent!�

Narrew

May 19th, 2004, 07:57 PM

But the reason I do not think there is, because SETI has not heard 1 stinking thing for the Last 15-20 years of listening.

Our puny planet has been broadcasting for only the Last 60 years, and each year we increase the amount we send out. I do not see a future that we will close our leakage off (ie tight beam communication).

And lets say that we will broadcast indiscriminately for a total of 1k years. Before we decide not to leak anymore or die off, what ever.

So just as a ripple in a pond flows out, our broadcast will flow away from the earth, so if the Drake's equation is any where correct, we should hear other races communications, even if that race is dead and gone, as its ripple flows over Earth's orbit. I do not know when the Universes background radiation will distort/destroy a signal, but it seems a long time. So at anyone time, there should be a few signals coming from somewhere.

It's either that, or we are the only race that is stupid enough to leak our communications out to space (paranoid aliens then).

As the movie brought up, it comes down to Occam's Razor.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think SETI should continue to listen, just incase we are in dry period (of ripples). And I do want to see E.T.'s, but until we hear something, I will go with Occam.

geoschmo

May 19th, 2004, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Narrew:

It's either that, or we are the only race that is stupid enough to leak our communications out to space (paranoid aliens then).
That is not the only reasonable hypothesis. It may be simply that it's much harder to pick up these signals then we currently have the technology for. Signals don't just bounce around forever in the vacuum of space. Here's a good article by one of the guys involved in SETI.
Can aliens find us? (http://publish.seti.org/general/articles.php?id=145)

It paints a pretty bleak picture actually. There would almost have to be an advanced alien race that suspected our system of harboring life that intentionally sent a very strong message directed at us. General planetery communications would likely be too weak for us to monitor unless they were very close by, and if that were true we'd already know about them.

Perhaps in the future we could setup very large space borne antenna arrays capable of picking up low power radio transmissions from farther away. But we aren't there yet.

Intra system and military communications are stronger so we might pick them up, but they are typically narrow-beam directional broadcasts.

Strong inter-planetary signals also aren't likely to be omni-directional, so we'd have to be incredibally lucky to happen to be between points A and B to tap into it. And that would assume there were two highly advanced intelligent species living on either side talking to each other and neither had contacted us yet.

Phoenix-D

May 19th, 2004, 09:13 PM

Then there is the other problem.

That is, if there is intelligent life out there, it might not have gotten to the point of sending signals SETI can detect..or even to the point of technology.

Even if it had, and it was in our galaxy- the galaxy is around 100,000 light years across. Way, way too big for anyone who developed on the other side to know we're here or vice versa. Assuming the signal could even be recognizable past all the crap in the way anyway!

narf poit chez BOOM

May 19th, 2004, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
What if there is no universe? What if it is just our minds way of rationalizing the emptiness of our own souls?
At, now your reaching... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

geoschmo

May 20th, 2004, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
Oh, a second point...I find that most people don't seem to be able to understand that nothing means nothing and therefore does not have a value. Note that I did not say cannot have a value, but does not have a value. Doesn't have a place to put a value, either. Doesn't have anything, isn't anything, because it's nothing!
Actually, while I was having a little fun with it in my manner of speaking, but that is exactly the point I was trying to make. The universe can be finite and have a distinct border out there somewhere. That doesn't mean there is more space beyond the border as some here have said. It could mean there is simply, well nothing beyond it. But nothing outside the universe does not mean "more space" anymore then the space inside the universe is nothing. Space is not nothing, it's simply the absence of any matter. Nothing on the other hand, is nothing. It's the difference between zero and not having a number at all.

geoschmo

May 20th, 2004, 01:35 AM

I think it's almost a probability given what we know that we will someday find evidence of past life on Mars. It may not happen until we can have a permenant presense on the planet with scientists digging around in the dirt and checking out caves and stuff.

Narrew

May 20th, 2004, 03:35 AM

geoschmo, Nice article, I think we just need a longer time to listen. Also, if we ever move out to space then perhaps there were will be some pure science done to answer these questions.

Phoenix-D, that is why I think it is enjoyable to discuss these things, we just don't know, time will tell even if we are not around to hear the answer.

Fyron

May 20th, 2004, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
This is an interesting mind exersize, but it's not any sort of proof. I explicitly stated that it was merely part of a proof, not a proof.

For one thing, space is not nothing. It's most definetly something. Saying that space is nothing is like saying that zero is not a number. Space is nothing. It is empty... space. Yeah... anyways, it is merely the extension of 3 dimensions. It is volume, but that is all. It is the same sort of nothing that the volume inside a box is. I do not mean nothing as in it doesn't exist, just that it is the void in which other things are contained. It is not really something by itself.

The universe is contained inside space. Space is nothing exactly like zero is nothing. No apples and no oranges. Zero. And like zero, if you add more space to the space you have, you still just get the same space. Both are infinite in size.

Renegade 13

May 20th, 2004, 06:13 AM

No you don't end up with the same space. You end up with a greater volume of space. Although, space is considered to be continually expanding, so that volume of space is also proportionately increasing.

Kamog

May 20th, 2004, 07:41 AM

Well, space is expanding in the sense that the galaxies are moving away from each other and therefore matter is spreading out. We don't know whether the empty space itself is expanding or not, right?

Fyron

May 20th, 2004, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
No you don't end up with the same space. You end up with a greater volume of space. Although, space is considered to be continually expanding, so that volume of space is also proportionately increasing. That was relying on the assumption that space, like 0, is an infinite set...

dogscoff

May 20th, 2004, 09:16 AM

Fyron starts sounding, like, all spaced out... man..:

Space is nothing. It is empty... space ... It is the same sort of nothing that the volume inside a box is...The universe is contained inside space... No apples and no oranges. Zero. And like zero, if you add more space to the space you have, you still just get the same space. Both are infinite in size.
Maybe I'm misreading you or misinterptetting your terminology and I'll just be re-iterating what you just said, but I think i may have to disagree with you here.

As my very limited pop-science oft string theory has it, even a total, absolute vacuum is still made of something. String, probably, hence the silly name of the theory. Anyway, you could imagine that vacuum as a variable with the value of zero mass, which is still a value.

However whatever lies beyond the edges of the universe would not even be made up of string (or whatever that theory was on about) and might therefore be more properly described as a variable with 'null' value- or maybe just not a variable at all.

Now pass me whatever you been smoking F, I want me some 'o that...

[ May 20, 2004, 13:10: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

geoschmo

May 20th, 2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Space is nothing. It is empty... space. Yeah... anyways, it is merely the extension of 3 dimensions. It is volume, but that is all. It is the same sort of nothing that the volume inside a box is. I do not mean nothing as in it doesn't exist, just that it is the void in which other things are contained. It is not really something by itself.

The universe is contained inside space. Space is nothing exactly like zero is nothing. No apples and no oranges. Zero. And like zero, if you add more space to the space you have, you still just get the same space. Both are infinite in size. I like this anaolgy. Think of the universe as a box. The galaxies and other matter are things in the box. Space is the volume around and between all the stuff. But just like the box, the universe is finite.

Your anaology and the conclusion you derive from it are contradictory. Because the universe is NOT contained inside space. Space is contained inside the universe. Outside of the box(universe) is not more space, because space is inside the box.

Fyron

May 20th, 2004, 11:39 PM

The matter of the universe is indeed contained inside space. Space is infinite. The universe is not. The space was there before the big bang that lead to the universe as it is now... How do you think the universe is able to expand? It must expand into something that is there. Such as empty space...

Renegade 13

May 21st, 2004, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Renegade 13:
No you don't end up with the same space. You end up with a greater volume of space. Although, space is considered to be continually expanding, so that volume of space is also proportionately increasing. That was relying on the assumption that space, like 0, is an infinite set... <hr /></blockquote>Sometimes, to formulate a possible theory with lack of hard evidence, you have to make some assumptions.

Kamog

May 21st, 2004, 05:09 AM

Why is 0 an infinite set? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

May 21st, 2004, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
Why is 0 an infinite set? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Add http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif me

Fyron

May 21st, 2004, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
Why is 0 an infinite set? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif It is closed under addition and multiplication. More precisely, I should say that it spans an infinite set...

narf poit chez BOOM

May 21st, 2004, 06:43 AM

I don't think zero gives an infinite result when you divide something by it. In order to divide something, you have to have something to divide it by.

That is, if that's what your talking about.

Aiken

May 21st, 2004, 06:43 AM

0 is not an infinitive set, because 0 plus any number = that number, but not an equipotent infinitive set http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fyron

May 21st, 2004, 06:46 AM

Nevermind...

dogscoff

May 21st, 2004, 09:19 AM

must expand into something that is there. Such as empty space...
As I thought, your terminology is confusing everyone.

When most people hear the word "space" in this kind of context, they think of the Big Black in between the stars and planets. The point many of us are trying to make is that this "Big Black" is different to the "space" beyond the borders fo the universe.

You weretherefore causing a confusion between the "space" between the planets and the "space" beyond the universe's edge.

Unless you are actually asserting that the space between the planets is fundamentally the same as whatever is beyond the universe- ie, to fit Geo's metaphor, 'there is no box'. Otherwise, "emptiness" might be good word substitution for "space" in your Last few Posts..?

--
There is no spoon. But I think I have a spork around here somewhere...

[ May 21, 2004, 08:21: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

geoschmo

May 21st, 2004, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The matter of the universe is indeed contained inside space. Space is infinite. The universe is not. The space was there before the big bang that lead to the universe as it is now... How do you think the universe is able to expand? It must expand into something that is there. Such as empty space... Actually to get really bizarre, there is some theoretical work going on in that regard. It may turn out that this is not true at all. The universe might be expanding into itself, warping and folding, and so not actually changing it's total volume. It's all very confusing actually. I don't nearly understand it. I just like to read it sometimes and let the ideas wash over my brain. It's better then chemical stimulation I'll tell you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Gandalf Parker

May 21st, 2004, 04:25 PM

You mean the new Quantum Theories? Strings, membranes, all that? Interesting stuff. Still allows for a big bang but undoes the far future shrinkage back to a single point to do it again.

Also creates 11 dimensions, undoes the "matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed" rule or at least modifies it, and puts us at level 4 in an 11 level existance. Strange stuff but what I find interesting is that it deletes the scientific blocks on a ton of things that science had been comfortable in disproving. Opens them all up for new discussion. Just a short list includes magic, most supernatural, and god. (there are other Boards on the net for all that though) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 21, 2004, 15:26: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

PvK

May 22nd, 2004, 03:31 AM

If your universe is Atari 2600 Combat, the edge of the universe is likely a wrap-around effect to the other side...

Hard to really know the answer without going there, and if there is no edge... or even if there is but it's as far away as it looks... good luck ever getting there, even with your descendants.

If you find an impossibly coincidental at the massively extreme end of the number pi, then someone has been playing with the computers you're using to do the calculations... or some uber nerd like Carl Sagan created the universe you call real. They say humans create god in their own image...

PvK