OT: Worst PC Decision

[Atrocities]

Before you read this know that it is true, as sad as it may sound, it is a true story and one that I am very ashemed of. But those of you who know me know that if I had any luck at all, it would be bad luck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Enjoy the read and try not to laugh or cry to much.

As I begin the argues task of planning my next PC I am forced to reflect back upon the Last time I build a computer, a computer which ultimately turned out to be the worst PC decision I have ever made.

June 2001,

The Blue Box was to be the ultimate gaming computer, one that would Last me for five years. In 2001 money was beginning to become a tight commodity for me and I had to build or bust.

I opted for the build and chose my components. I opted for an MSI raid motherboard and a 1.4 Atholon CPU. I bought Kingston Ram, 512 Megs of their best DDR ram, and went with Creative Labs 5.1 Sound BLaster. To top it all off I bought a GeForce 3 video card for the bargain price of $430.00. (Ya I know, GeForce 3 cards became the missing link in NVIDIA’s universe. Oh I am sick over this purchase.)

The Atholon chip ran me $230.00, the Case $90.00, Ram $200.00, MB - $135.00, DVD & CDRW - $100.00, Sound bLaster $80.00, 80 gig WD Hard Drive - $150.00. Throw in the Intelli Optical mouse, Intel ergo Internet ready keyboard, a floppy, and the Intel Digital Sound system the grand total invested in parts comes to a whopping $1700.00.

To start off with the CPU I had bought burned up do to a bad-cooling fan within seconds of starting the system. Add another $230.00 to bill + $35.00 for a super cooler fan. Then that CPU burned up for an unknown reason. Add another $230.00 to the bill. Then the Mother board failed. Add $140.00 to the bill. Finally I get the system put together and fired up. The Hard Drive failed. Add the cost of a round trip drive to Fry’s electronics to replace it and I got off cheap. (Total $2,535.00)

Well now all things considered I am doing ok, the system is put together and time to test it. Turn it on and nothing happens. At this point I was about to cry. I called my best friend at the time but he was going through some life changing events and was unwilling to help me. So I pulled out the credit card and headed off to the local computer shop. A week later I get the call that my computer is all done. I zoom over to pick it up, pay my $125.00 bill and head home. I get home and turn on the computer only to read that I had a GeForce II card as the computer booted up. That I only had 128 Megs of Ram, and a 20 gig hard drive. I became very ill rather rapidly. I opened the case and was sickened, physically sickened at what I saw. ($2,660.00 pooof)

The computer shop, a reputable business I thought, had switched all my parts out for used inferior ones. I returned to the shop and demanded that they give back my parts. They refused saying that the parts that were in my computer were the parts it came with. I did what any person would do at that point; I called the police. I showed them the slip that outlined the parts that the computer had when I gave it to them, along with copies of the receipts, and for my trouble I was told there was nothing he could do. I was out of pocket for all of my parts, all of them. They even swapped the 1.4 AMD for a 1.0. I of course filed suite, add another $1500.00 to the bill. (Now we are up to $4,160.00)

Now out of money and stuck with a crappy machine I opted to bite the bullet one Last time and buy new parts using my credit card. At the same time I was given the novel idea to ask for my money back on the two failed CPU’s. After some diplomacy and a lot of emails AMD refunded me $460.00 following an investigation into the CPU’s and why they failed. I used that money to buy a new 1.4 AMD and 40-gig WD hard drive. Since I already had the case, mother board, and the drive bays, all I needed was a 256k DDR Ram Module, video card, sound card, and modem. I bought another GeForce 3 card, and a 128 Meg DDR Ram Dim. I opted to wait on the modem and use one of my 10/100 Ethernet cards instead since I had Broad Band. This did not include the cost of Windows 2k, which I had already bough a year before. ($220.00)

I had to take it to the shop one Last time to resolve some issues and that cost another $150.00. When I was done the computer had cost me $5,210.00. Give or take a $100.00

I disputed the cost of the shop bill on my visa, - $125.00, and the shop owner after several more missing or replaced part complaints went out of business. I never recovered my money, and the money I invested in the lawyer was for not.

To top it off, the computer has never run right. I has been plagued by oddball shut downs resulting in sever reinstalls of the OS. The insult to injury over the GeForce 3 card will always be an open wound. Any one who knows about video cards knows what I am talking about.

If I were to take this system and part it out now, I would only recover about $200.00 for that is all this system is worth.

I have never told any one about this because I am so embarrassed by what happened. Needless to say I will never make these kinds of mistakes again. When I do opt to build my new system, I will not fall prey to the same sickening things that I fell prey to here.

Without a doubt this experience was the worst PC decision I have ever made in my life.

[ May 18, 2004, 15:27: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[Raging Deadstar]

Woah, that's an incredible piece of Bad Luck!

But don't worry about it, at least you have the guts to own up to this mistake, many people i know would hide in shame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

You took a gamble, it never paid off. Of course, if you had just bought a new pc, if you could afford it, you might have attempted this in the future. You've gained Insight and Knowledge at the price of material wealth and some pride http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And this still doesn't beat Ruathas Drunk message froma few months back http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Atrocities]

I missed the Ruatha message. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

What really hurts is that a month after I finally built the system, all the prices for all the parts dropped by over half. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Just in time for TribesCon too.


quivering upper lip


[ May 17, 2004, 19:39: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro]

Good Gawd Man! That's terrible and depressing. You should do what I do. Order it Online then tell the wife your getting a second job to pay for it. That leaves her very little time to get pissed.

Was the store Pacific Solutions?

[Karibu]

Well, I have built up my computers 2 or 3 times and they all worked out well. My latest buy was a whole CPU (first time I bought it as one buy), which has proved to be unstable for unknown reason. However, it works and my experiences are minor compared to yours. You have my compassion compeletely. It makes my problems seem quite bearable.

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro:


Was the store Pacific Solutions? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it was not.

Do you recall the store PC Hiedens? It was in Hillsburo (sp) and it was a great location to pick up parts. To bad it went under. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Enu is ok, but they are a bit arrogant. They are the ones who I bought those AMD chips from. They were very helpful in getting my money back over the bad chips. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Frys Electronics is what I would call Ferengi Distributors Inc. You get what you pay for, buyer beware.

[ May 17, 2004, 19:54: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[Ragnarok-X]

well, thats quite a story. Really bad luck. More like a chain of bad luck events. I have to admit i never had ANYTHING that comes close.

There is just one thing i can tell you: Luck always balances out, so most propably you are going to have a lot of good luck in the next time (weeks, years, whatever) !

[Raging Deadstar]

Atrocities, If any diety exists and shapes the future of the cosmos we've determined one thing from this story...

He's a MOO3 Fan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
Atrocities, If any diety exists and shapes the future of the cosmos we've determined one thing from this story...

He's a MOO3 Fan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL Very true

And thanks Rag-X http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[dogscoff]

I've built a few PCs over the years, but always from bargain second hand parts. The trick is to know someone else with more money than you who upgrades often. then blag all their castoffs for a low price/ a few beers. Sure, you don't get up to the minute hardware, but it'll run se4 nicely and you'll be able to save your pennies for the occasional killer graphics board/ ram upgrade.

[Unknown_Enemy]

From your story I am convinced that the lawyer's way is just a waste of time and money. Firms will always have more money than the casual joe.

I would say phone to the client services of computer magazines until one home a phone call to the shop. That will do wonders beyond your wildest dreams. It's the way it works here, that is.

[Atrocities]

I took the parts the shop swapped and used them in my old computer. I picked up a cheap MB for the AMD 1.0 and used all my old parts to make a fairly good second PC. The GeForce 2 card they game me was better than the one that was in the computer so I scored there. I sold this second system for about $500.00 bucks to a co-worker. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The old parts from that computer I put in my P2 300 and sold to my brother for $200.00.

The old parts from the P2 300 I sold to my neighbor for $100.00.

He then paid me $200.00 to rebuild his PC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (A 20 minute job.)

So I made near around $1,000 dollars to offset the cost of the Blue Box.

When my rebuilt computer* was stolen at TribesCon3, the insurance company, minus my deductible, paid me at replacement value. I used part of that money to rebuilt my p2 400 which I used as a back up for a year before it finally died and I ended up with this HP POS as a gift. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And then we get into the HP story which I will leave to you forum minors to find the thread on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

*A compac AMD 750 that my mom gave me that I cleaned up and put a cheap Geforce 2 card in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ran great up until it was stolen at TribesCon while I was in my room sleeping.

[ May 17, 2004, 21:03: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[Raging Deadstar]

Tribes Con Sounds like a very nice and honest place.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
Tribes Con Sounds like a very nice and honest place.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well aside from the hackers, thieves, and arseholes, it was a pleasent enough experience. The west coast largest lan fest to date.

When you go to events like this 90% of the time your equipment is safe. But given the rabbel and dregs of the universe that this particular event drew in, I consider my loss cheap compared to some.

There were hacking parties where Groups of scum actually hacked into other peoples computers over the lan. They say it was ok because everyone should have had a firewall. Riiiiiiiggghhhhhtttttt.

I did meet a lot of great people there and many people I did meet played hot seat SEIV with me so the loss of a free computer with a $150.00 card in it was well worth it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I hope I generated a lot of sales for SEIV that day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Raging Deadstar]

Unfortuantly this is true i guess. I personally like to think that if there was a dedicated SEIV Convention that everyone could make it to (Hey it only takes a month to build an escort http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) there wouldn't be any sort of problems like this but i'm probably delluding myself. Althought the majority of everyone here seem like genuine nice people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Iansidious]

A bitter sweet topic. Sweet for all the readers and bitter for AT. AT, I had to email this to a friend who works for computer company. Must spread the laughter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

I don't believe AT was trying to get you to laugh at him...

[dogscoff]

You know AT you must have a whole stack of good luck piled up somewhere just waiting for you... you really are owed. Sooner or later you are gonna score big=-)

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
You know AT you must have a whole stack of good luck piled up somewhere just waiting for you... you really are owed. Sooner or later you are gonna score big=-) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I will share it with you when it comes in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Iansidious:
A bitter sweet topic. Sweet for all the readers and bitter for AT. AT, I had to email this to a friend who works for computer company. Must spread the laughter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I hope it lightens his day. Proof that there are people in the world with worse luck then most. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Lighthorse]

What happen to you, Atricities is why I only buy Dell computer Online with a 3 year warranty now. The best computer I had was a MacII back in the mid-80's, I later switched over to PC's. The so call saving build your own never really work out in the long run. Got a good friend that does a good part time business repairing other build at home computers that were bought a Frys.
Never had a computer that failed completely, but I had my share of problems, both hardware and software. All the computer constructers I work with now have Dell laptops and for a good reason. Our work Dell laptop mother board failed twice, harddrive arch out by a tiny screw, battery failed, etc. Dell responded within 24 hours and fixed it every time, no question asked. Got a called from a Dell engineers group making sure that I was happy with my Dell laptop. I did extended the warranty anther two years for that laptop.
When I had a Sony computer I to ship it away for three weeks for warranty repair, that sucks. Dell at home warranty can't be beat. I will only purchase Dell computer with they at 3 yrs. home warranty. You can always extended it later.
For the record, only had to call Dell for some technical support, never a warantry repair for my two home conputers. Got they Dimension 8200 and 8300. Great Computer.

Next time Artocities purchase a Dell XPS Dimension gaming computer with a 3 yrs warantry. That my next purchase (maybe if the wife allows it)

Lighthorse
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Lighthorse
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ May 17, 2004, 23:03: Message edited by: Lighthorse ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Well, sounds like you learned valuable skills, at least.
Originally posted by Atrocities:
I took the parts the shop swapped and used them in my old computer. I picked up a cheap MB for the AMD 1.0 and used all my old parts to make a fairly good second PC. The GeForce 2 card they game me was better than the one that was in the computer so I scored there. I sold this second system for about $500.00 bucks to a co-worker. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The old parts from that computer I put in my P2 300 and sold to my brother for $200.00.

The old parts from the P2 300 I sold to my neighbor for $100.00.

He then paid me $200.00 to rebuild his PC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (A 20 minute job.)

So I made near around $1,000 dollars to offset the cost of the Blue Box.

When my rebuilt computer* was stolen at TribesCon3, the insurance company, minus my deductible, paid me at replacement value. I used part of that money to rebuilt my p2 400 which I used as a back up for a year before it finally died and I ended up with this HP POS as a gift. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And then we get into the HP story which I will leave to you forum minors to find the thread on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

*A compac AMD 750 that my mom gave me that I cleaned up and put a cheap Geforce 2 card in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ran great up until it was stolen at TribesCon while I was in my room sleeping. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[Atrocities]

There is something to be said about building your own computer. Most of the parts are warrenteed and in most cases, not all, but most the warrentees are good.

I learned two valuable lessons as a result of my experience.
1. Always buy using a VISA. In most states you as a consumer are protected and can dispute charges if you can prove that the item was defective and you could not return it.

2. ALWAYS, make damn sure that the people who work on your computer SIGN the inlet sheet and that that sheet lists EVERYTHING in your computer.

Oh ya, one Last lesson, Buyer Beware when it comes to Fry's Electronics.

[Solymr]

I have to say Atrocities, this is the probably the worst story I've heard. A magazine here called APC has a section called Watchdog where people with problems with immoral computer stores write in and the magazine tries to sort out whos in the wrong. The company's are usually for cooperative if this happens, since bad publicity can destroy a buisness. I disagree with people claiming pre-built PCs are better (easier I agree with, but I always take the hard path), but I guess I've never had anything like that happen to me before (only problem I've really had was a dud power supply).

I believe that putting together my own computer is probably the best thing I could have done. I researched and choose the parts to use, rather then having some guy going for the cheapest alternative. I've learned alot from doing it myself as well, through trial and error (no more being swayed by fancy talk from a slick salesman for me). But I think the best thing about doing it myself is that upgrading isn't such a major chore. I do it all in a few hours and if I have a problem, I know I'm not going to try cover it up with inferior parts. My computer is not a static affair that in 3 years will be out of date, it will change, grow and evolve as I upgrade and change parts. Yeah it can be a bit of a pain to do it myself if I hit a bump, but I just don't trust my computer with anyone else.

Yeah I guess its an obsession, but I hate giving control of what my system will have or not have in it to other people. Its my money and I'd rather know exactly what I'm buying, there are just way too many unscrupulous and unqualified computer stores in my city. But at the end of the day its all personal preference, you say potato and I say pota....umm yeah.

[Atrocities]

The bad thing about the pre-build computers is the service when you need it. HP has atrocious serves since all the technical calls are routed to INDIA. These people hate us and all they can do is recommend a reinstall of the OS, often leading to more problems, or that you send in the entire computer to be "fixed" which really means that HP is going to send you a inferiour replacement PC and you will never see your computer again.

I don't know about Dells service, but I have heard simular horror stories.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Atrocities:


I don't know about Dells service, but I have heard simular horror stories. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dells service is great. I have dealt with them here at work before and I can't really complain. I think out of all of my calls I have only had once that I got made. It was mostly because I got an India person that knew very little english, usually they know enough to work out a solution to the problem. But they always have a good fix to the problem and I have never had them suggest a reinstall of the OS.

[Atrocities]

Good for Dell then.

[Thermodyne]

Well, this was a real case of a bad event morphing into a bad experience. I hope it doesn’t turn you away from home building.

If it makes you feel any better, AMD systems were touchy to set up back then. The VIA chip sets sucked big time and caused a lot of the problems. Now with XP chips and NForce 2 chipsets, AMD is just as easy and reliable as Intel.

[Wardad]

http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~tropico/cafe/attachments/t003.gif

[Atrocities]

NOOOOOOO Not that! I will telll you everything I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahhhhhhhhhh

[Raging Deadstar]

You can tell the guy in the cartoon works for human resources... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

(Subtle Dilbert Reference Alert)

[Makinus]

The best way to have a build your own computer is like i do: I'm a lawyer but my hobbie is dismantling computers, so i made a deal with the rest of the people in my office (other lawyers): every time they wish to upgrade their computers i would do the upgrade for them (installing the new Boards, etc.)in echange for the old Boards, etc..

So i have lots of old Boards, memories, etc, and i have actually 3 computers, 1 at the office: 750mhz, 128mb Ram, HD 40GB, and 2 at home: 1.2ghz, 256mb Ram, HD 60mb, Geforce 2 and a 650mhz, 128mb Ram, HD 1.2mb (yes, i know, i'm waiting for someone to upgrade his HD so i can get a better one).

[gregebowman]

Atrocities, just read your story. That's why I don't build my own computers. I'd rather buy a already made one at an electronics store, or in the case of my current computer, have someone else build it. In this case, it's my wife's cousin-in-law. If I can ever come up with the extra dough, I'll have him upgrade it, especially the graphics card. I want to play Knights of the Old Republic, but can't.

[Atrocities]

Greg, when you do update your graphics card, I strongly recommend that you go with the best card on the market. Video cards are changing and so are the programs that use them. The video card I just bought for $240.00 GeForce FX 5700 Ultra is already grossly outdated and considered as a medium card now.

[Fyron]

I recommend that you do NOT go with the best card on the market... unless you have a huge amount of money to waste... in which case it would be better that you send the excess my way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif You can get a card that costs 1/2 to 1/3 as much, and still does everything necessary to run today's high end games as well as tomorrow's. You do not need to spend an arm and a leg to buy hardware that will cost half as much in a month... the differences between the high end and medium end graphics cards are rather negligible at this point in time...

[Roanon]

I definitely agree with Fyron. There is not much difference in speed between high end and middle, but a lot of difference in the costs. You definitely get better value for money if NOT buying the latest most expensive. Furthermore, middleclass will remain middleclass for some time, but high end will becomme middleclass very soon. Unless you really, really need max graphics power (and have a lot of money to spend), there is no need for absolute high-end in graphic cards.

There is usually a clearly identifiable gap where prices changes from "outrageous for silly freaks buying everything that is shiny and new" to "price equal to value". Buy the top card from this price range, but don't go higher.

Of course, make sure that you need a powerful graphic card first. Games like SE play perfectly well on a used 10$ card http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[gregebowman]

Heck, it almost sounds like I'd be better off paying the $179 for an X-Box and the $50 for the KOTR game than it would to decide which graphics card to buy. Whenever I do decide to upgrade, I'll start reading the technical sections of the pc mags I buy and try to make an informed decision.

[Rigelian]

Or take the X-box.. a bit of work chipping it and you can install Linux.. install WINE and you can run SE4 on it. For the Linux fan, well worth it just to s***w MS for the $300 subsidy on every X-box.. 8-)

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I recommend that you do NOT go with the best card on the market... unless you have a huge amount of money to waste... in which case it would be better that you send the excess my way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif You can get a card that costs 1/2 to 1/3 as much, and still does everything necessary to run today's high end games as well as tomorrow's. You do not need to spend an arm and a leg to buy hardware that will cost half as much in a month... the differences between the high end and medium end graphics cards are rather negligible at this point in time... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was of this school of thought too but now I must stand my ground. For best performance and the best intergrated top of the line support buy the top of the line card. The cheepies lack a lot of the estials that there big brothers have. I made this mistake twice and I'm telling you if you want the best performance and most compatability with newer games and their features, pay the price.

[Roanon]

I still disagree.
Of course, cheapest buy is not a good buy. But most of the features of high-end cards are not even used by a single piece of software at the time when you buy them. The best card is the one just below the high level, where reasonable prices rule. Paying double or triple the price for a few gimmicks more does not give you value for money. By the time you really need all these cool features of the high-end card, it will cost half or less - and they you can still buy it with the money you saved when buying a cheaper card firsthand. And still have money left over.

I just bought a GeForce FX5900 for less than 200€. I bet it will be good for at least 1 year, when I can buy a better card than what currently costs 500€ for around 200€ again, keeping me going for another year. Paying 500€ now would maybe give me one and a half year till I need to change, do that 2 times and you pay 1000€ for roughly the same performance over 3 years than with my schedule buying 3 cards for a total of 600€.

Yes, you need to update more often if you do not buy high end. Still it is cheaper. The prices for high end cards are just too ridiculous, there is absolutely no value for money. Do tell me for which game you absolutely need a card for more than 400$ - and please no games "scheduled to be released next month" that will beta around next year.

[Fyron]

What Roanon said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 18, 2004, 23:39: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Atrocities]

Hey look I agree about the cost thing 100%, but I am telling you that card manufactures are including needed and now supported features on the lower cost cards. Take for example Far Cry, by all rights my GeForce FX 57 Ultra should run this game on hits higest settings with no problem, but the best I can do is Medium. Remember this card is less than six months old and I had to buy it to run the then State of the Art Deus Ex II. Bit shading, bump shading, something dot resolution at FPS, god only knows what the hell the differance is now, but the point is if I had opted for the Radeon 9800 or the better GeForce FX card I would be playing Far Cry on its highest settings.

Really all I am saying is that more and more games are using the features you find on the high cost high end cards that don't exsist on the less expensive Versions.

If all you want to do is play NOTOR, a borning game of epic proportions, then by all means just buy the X-Box or whatever card the game requires.

And for the record, NoToR is one uber magnum boring game on a galatic grand scale.

[Fyron]

Yes, but you can still play Far Cry just fine, right? So that just goes to prove the point... you do not need the bells and whistles provided by the cards that cost 2x to 3x as much money...

[Roanon]

Of course, if you think you have to play every new game on highest settings (even if that rarely makes much difference) you NEED the most expensive card. These customers are what the manufacturers like most, and they know they can rely on them paying ANY price - because they just MUST have all the latest gimmicks, like superultraspeed with separate shadow textures for invisible pixels moving behind objects covering them, and so on.

But your average highest-tech card won't Last much longer than half a year - if you keep that standards. Nothing to say against of course, if you have enough money - its your money http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Ok, you can always resell our old card on ebay when upgrading - but, while the average middlehigh card will drop from around 200$ to around 150$, half a year old high tech cards usually plummet from 500$ to 200$...

[Wardad]

http://dynamic5.gamespy.com/~extralife/strips/10-20-2003.gif

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Yes, but you can still play Far Cry just fine, right? So that just goes to prove the point... you do not need the bells and whistles provided by the cards that cost 2x to 3x as much money... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes I can play Far Cry ok, but still I would love to take advantage of all the extra features. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[dogscoff]

So this guy will have spent double the amount that a top of the range card will have cost him beacuse you'll have bought basicly 3 GFX cards compared to 1 for the same amount of time.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well no. The point he made is that even though he bought 2 or 3 GFX cards instead of one, it still cost him less because one top of the range card costs more than 3 older ones, because that's just the way graphics cards are priced these days.
As a bonus he gets to sell on/ re-home the old ones as he upgrades...

[David E. Gervais]

Wierd, I have a simple gForce2 MX and it runs Farcry fine with high details. My CPU is an AMD Athlon XP 1700+ 1.46 ghz. Memory is 512meg DDR2400 (where farcry gives me problems is I occasionally loose the sound. In spite of upgrading to a SB Audigy Gamer from my old SBLive Value.)

One thing that will make most any game lag is if you let windows manage your virtual memory. It is perpetually changing the size of the HD Cache (min of 0mb and max as needed.) Set your Virtual memory to double your actual RAM. And be sure to set the min and max to the same value. It will create one big swap file. Also, it helps enormously if you defrag before setting the virtual memory. (remember to turn off VM before defragging) The final result of this will make your system seem like it is a good 50-70% faster.

That's it for my tip of the day.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

P.S. About Graphics cards,.. depending on your motherboard getting top of the line might not show any improvement at all. If you have a max 2-4x AGP then the new cards won't work, and it will cost you a MB upgrade to use it. It's just common sense. My next Upgrade will be a gForce 4 Ti or gForce FX. (depending on what I can get for approx 150$cdn. Last time I looked the FX was creeping into this price range.) Since my MB has a max of 4x AGP, I'll buy a card that will run at this speed. So even if I get the FX at 4-8x AGP I'll be running at less than peak performance, but that's ok, it means less heat issues.

My upgrade after that will be to change my CPU to a AMD Athlon XP 2600+ (since that is tha max my MB will allow.)

Nuf said, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 01, 2004, 15:29: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[Renegade 13]

Where should I go to manually set the amount of virtual memory??

[Zagan]

Just read over this.

You really should buy the highest GFX card for the money you can get.

To buy something less is really wasting your money and is totally pointless.

A guy here is saying buy a mid range card sure that'll Last a year and half but if you buy a top of the range card it'll Last for 3 or more years before you really have to upgrade.

So this guy will have spent double the amount that a top of the range card will have cost him beacuse you'll have bought basicly 3 GFX cards compared to 1 for the same amount of time.

The reasons why to buy a top of the range card:
Able to handle DX9 in hardware.
ABle to do ALL the new lighting shading and anti-aliasing etc.
the fastest ram you can get.
The highest Resolutions you can get at the different Mhz for any monitor you may have.
The highest amounts of ram.
More features in the OS and on the card, such as TV in/out features you wouldn't ever get on a mid range card.
The fastest and most amounts of bandwidth for ram and for the different rendering pipes.

To play Far Cry properly and any of the newest games coming out now, That's Half-life 2, Stalker, UT2004/UT2005, and others.

You will need to have a DX9 or DX10 capable GFX card, anything less and you are basicly wasting your time even buying and installing the card these days.

Lower cards, will have lower resolutions and Mhz ranges.
Les ram, slower ram, less ram bandwidth and rendering pipes.
Few Features if any at all.
A top of the line mid-range card feature would be TV out and maybe dual head for having 2 monitors going at the same time.

Mid range cards are also spped limited and rendering features locked, so you could buy a mid range card that can't render light maps.

The low end GeForce 3 GFX cards were locked in this way execpt the GeForce 3 top end cards, even the GeForce 4 cards are in the same boat.

[Cirvol]

Renegade http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Right click 'my computer', hit properties, then the advanced tab then the performance button.

BTW, I used to work for M$ and IBM, and now do my own consulting business, database programming, hardware systems for large companies, etc etc

Trust me when I say, Ideally you want 2 gig's of total virtual ram - ie, if you have 512 meg ram, make your swap file 1.5 gig... Windows addresses up to 4 gig of ram, (32 bits), so some argue it should add to 4 gig... if you have the HD space, then go for it. (and yes, defrag before you do this - with swap disabled)

Also, on the VGA CARD issue... don't fall for the general directives of 'buy highest' or 'buy middle'... the companies rely on this, and you WILL get ripped off for the very top of the line, all the time.

Get at least an ATI 9500 PRO or better
Or get at least a GF 4200 ti or better
ati if you want direct x 9 pure support... but the TI series of GF 4's are nice... DO NOT buy MX variants of geforces http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

These cards are now fairly cheap, but use essentially the same architecture as the highest end cards... they just usually are clocked slower, and have slower memory. In many cases you can overclock to gain half the difference. My own 4200ti card easy runs at 4400 speeds

For those of you who insist on putting your own systems together, use GOOD quality stuff, ie, asus motherBoards, (msi and gigabyte are decent too), use 865 or 875 intel chipsets for the p4's and use nvidia chipsets for the amd's... (some other new sis and via amd chipsets are coming along nicely now as well, for a real low down, refer to tomshardware.com or anandtech.com)

Atrocities --- OMG, I feel so horrible after reading your experience... I wish I was around to help. Or you should have asked here...

Dell's with home warranties really are nice, the prices are reasonable but they do use decent components these days on their higher end stuff. You won't go wrong, you'll pay a bit more than homebuilt, but some say its worth it for the piece of mind.

If you connect to the internet, and use windows, ALWAYS update your computer from microsoft before you do anything else... too many hackers out there these days... if you're running XP, i'd suggest going to service pack 2 beta right away. If you run linux, then you don't need my advice really http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Atrocities]

The problem I am having with Farcry is that my card is over heating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It is not over cloaked so this should not be an issue but it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I need a water cooled case.

Any one here have any ideas on how to super cool a case cheaply?

Thanks cirvol, I wish you were around back then too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

I read that article Cirvol. The guy doesn't make a very compelling argument for building a box. At least not on an economic or performance basis. I am sure it was a good learning project for his kid and there's always something to be said for that. But the machine they ended up with wasn't any better then what they would have gotten in a pre-built for the same money. And he's not counting anything for an operating system.

So basically for the same money you can get the equvalent quality machine with a legit copy of an OS, already put together and ready to go. If you aren't just doing it for the fun of building it yourself, it doesn't really make sense.

[Gandalf Parker]

In alt.hacker we had a discussion about homemade cases. It was alot of fun. One was a "water cooled" case kindof. Remove the case on the computer. Take a big sheet of acrylic and bend it down over the computer, then across the table for 4-6 inches or so, then back up so you have a giant W with the computer in the middle. Its kindof hard to picture but after all the sealing and everything you get an aquarium than fits down over the top of the computer. Some air flow of course but mostly it was a heat exchange. The computer wants cooling and the aquarium wants heat. Plus seeing the computer running in the middle of the aquarium sounded cool.
(ouch I didnt mean that pun)

[Raging Deadstar]

David Gervais and Cirvol.

Thanks very much, My pc has been quite cluttered recently and VERY slow. I tried what you suggested about Defragmenting and Virtual Memory and it has done wonders for it, and it hasn't crashed once yet. Thanks for that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

So basically for the same money you can get the equvalent quality machine with a legit copy of an OS, already put together and ready to go. If you aren't just doing it for the fun of building it yourself, it doesn't really make sense.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In reality, this is not true. It might be for that Tom's Hardware article, but when you really go to build your own PC, you do save a lot of money and can get higher quality hardware (because you can choose what to get, rather than being stuck with the cheapest garbage the company selling you that prebuilt PC could find) when building the computer yourself (including the cost of the OS). The savings are not as large as they were a few years ago, but they still are large. Especially if you take advantage of rebates that appear for nearly every item from time to time, or go to computer fairs to get parts far cheaper than in stores such as Best Buy.

Of course, if you already own a copy of an OS and are building a new PC to replace the old one, you can use the OS CD you already have. There is no need to buy a second copy of it.

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
David Gervais and Cirvol.

Thanks very much, My pc has been quite cluttered recently and VERY slow. I tried what you suggested about Defragmenting and Virtual Memory and it has done wonders for it, and it hasn't crashed once yet. Thanks for that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is a good idea to defragment your hard drive once every 2 weeks or so. If you do it often, it doesn't take very long to do it each time. You do not need to disable the virtual memory swap file each time of course.

[ June 03, 2004, 18:56: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

It's also been my experience for the Last few years at least that the cost savings in building you own is not that spectacular, and may not be there at all. Unless we are talking about building a machine as cheaply as possible, in which case you can scrounge around and find year or two old components or whatever. You can put a workable low-end machince together on the cheap pretty easy. Of course you can also buy a used year or two old pc at a flea market or on ebay for next to nothing. If you are trying to build a machine to play all the latest games then the savings just aren't there.

OS's shouldn't be sloufed off so easily either. Typically every time I've found myself looking to upgrade pc's the OS has been a lttle long in the tooth as well. Of course some people grow fond of the older OS's and don't want to upgrade, but hey, that's not me. And yeah, I know there are a lot of "creative" ways to come up with a copy of an OS. But that's why I qualified my statement with "legit". And if you aren't trashing your old pc, and who does that when there are always family, friends, and home networks in need of backup computers, using the OS on the new pc isn't legit.

[Fyron]

I don't know... I have found the savings to be there in full force. Recently we purchased a PC for my sister. It cost around 500 dollars (plus moniter, which was about 80). A similar build of computer from, for example, Dell, was priced at around 900. And that was only with some of the parts of equivalent quality. Other stuff was worse in the Dell. This was obviously not a top of the line PC, but we could have gotten such for maybe 1/2 to 1/3 the price that Dell charged.

And if you aren't trashing your old pc, and who does that when there are always family, friends, and home networks in need of backup computers, using the OS on the new pc isn't legit. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only if you Subscribe to that unenforceable EULA gobleygook. It is not a legally binding contract in any way. I purchased the software, I can put it on as many of my computers as I want. Nothing "illegit" about it. Software is purchased by a user. Not by an individual computer.

[ June 03, 2004, 19:47: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It is a good idea to defragment your hard drive once every 2 weeks or so. If you do it often, it doesn't take very long to do it each time. You do not need to disable the virtual memory swap file each time of course. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, I may seem totally computer illiterate (I'm not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), but how do you disable the virtual memory swap file??

[ June 03, 2004, 23:14: Message edited by: Renegade 13 ]

[Instar]

the thing with building your own PC is that each part has its own warranty, instead of the whole unit
Also, in my experiences, you can save a bit of money. Recently my motherboard died, after two years of faithful service (and it comes with a 3 year warranty by default)
I'm never going to buy OEM machines, unless for someone else or something really specialized that I couldn't make myself

[Cirvol]

LOL, you really shouldn't need a water cooled case... those are rather extreme.

Just add a fan which blows air over your video card's heatsink. Perhaps an extra casefan in case you have an unused fan 'port' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Btw people, tomshardware.com has a recent 'build your own' sub-$1000 gaming pc article http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Its near the bottom of his front page... enjoy !

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It is a good idea to defragment your hard drive once every 2 weeks or so. If you do it often, it doesn't take very long to do it each time. You do not need to disable the virtual memory swap file each time of course. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, I may seem totally computer illiterate (I'm not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), but how do you disable the virtual memory swap file?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cirvol answered this in a post below. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

*link to post* (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=011701;p=1#000 050)

[Atrocities]

What is your guys call on the 64 bit processors, go with or wait?

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> And if you aren't trashing your old pc, and who does that when there are always family, friends, and home networks in need of backup computers, using the OS on the new pc isn't legit. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only if you Subscribe to that unenforceable EULA gobleygook. It is not a legally binding contract in any way. I purchased the software, I can put it on as many of my computers as I want. Nothing "illegit" about it. Software is purchased by a user. Not by an individual computer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, there are still copyright issues, even if EULA's are held unenforceable (as far as I know, they have never been challenged in court - until they have been, one cannot say for certain if the courts will hold EULA's as binding contracts or not) - if you purchase a book from the bookstore, you can read it at your house, you can let your neighbors read it at their house (or your house), but you can't read it at your house while you let your neighbors read it at their houses, as a book couldn't physically be in two places at once. As I recall (although I don't remember the source, so this may be false) the ruling on such readily copiable things as software, was that anything you would be capable of and permitted to do with a book, you are permitted to do with software - which means (assuming EULA's are held unenforceable in court, that is) you can install a single purchased OS on two machines, provided they aren't ever used simultaneously, as one physical book couldn't be in two places at once. Thus, you can't purchase one copy of Windows XP, install it on your custom machine (1), give your custom machine (1) away to your sister without doing anything to it, build another (2) and install your copy of Windows XP on it - the first machine is no longer under your control, so you can't be sure they won't be used simultaneously.

[Cirvol]

Well, there is QUITE a difference between the standard athlon 64 vs the FX model... (price reflects this as well - and as a result, the standard athlon 64 is a better buy for optimizing price/performance)

But, FX is sweet.

The nvidia nforce3-250 chipset seems like the sweetest one so far, again, do a bit of research at tomshardware.com. If you do any type of scientific research, (SETI@home, folding@home (my favorite)) then the athlon FX's are really really nice.

One caveat, they are about to switch to a new pin (and socket) layout, called the 939 - it might make sense to wait for these mobo's and cpu's before you purchase, (and for that matter, if you're upgrading your vga card, wait for PCI express - which will replace the AGP slot)

cheers,
Cirvol

[Instar]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
The problem I am having with Farcry is that my card is over heating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It is not over cloaked so this should not be an issue but it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I need a water cooled case.

Any one here have any ideas on how to super cool a case cheaply?

Thanks cirvol, I wish you were around back then too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, it is a common mod to do, what you have to do is find the right water cooling block that attaches to your particular parts (CPU and video card). After that all you need is to remove the regular heatsinks from both (might be tricky on the vcard) and attach them, with a tiny bit of silver heat gel (it really is optional, but a little won't hurt). Attaching the tubing is next, and all you need now is a pump and a resevoir, and a radiator. You can find premade kits at any PC mod site, or you can make your own if you're good with tools.

[Cirvol]

guys, water cooling is OVERKILL, i swear

just take the heat sink off, make sure both surfaces are really smooth and flat, and use artec silver paste between them, and you'll be amazed at how well it works...

water cooling the card is just asking for trouble, honest

[Raging Deadstar]

Personally i'm of the belief that water + PC's = Trouble

A water cooled case just sounds practically insane considering what your computer is made of, and running on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
Personally i'm of the belief that water + PC's = Trouble

A water cooled case just sounds practically insane considering what your computer is made of, and running on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, water cooling is only a step up from air. Next you have evaporative water cooling with a cooling tower. Then if you’re a real hard core OC’r, you can go with electronic chilling (pelts) and water. And for insane OC’ing, you can go with compressed gas (Vapochill).

[Roanon]

The only reason for water cooling is the reduced noise. Air is perfectly ok and absolutely sufficient if there are enough and good fans, but more fans always = more noise, even if you buy expensive "silent" ones.

[Aiken]

Interesting, is it possible to replace water with another cooling agent, spirit or glycerin for example?
Of course they're not so effective (lower specific heat characteristics) but not so dangerous for electronics.

[Cirvol]

Well, any liquid is really a waste compared to using a peltier cooler...

peltier is pretty cheap, no worries of condensation and liquids spilling on your uber mobo+cpu, and a pretty cool tech-doodad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Wardad]

Back on the cost savings subject...
Building your own is not a big cost saver.
BUT... it gives you control over your system, esp the software.

Buld your own and you can have the OS CD, and a CD for each application.
So the OS can go on a smaller C: partition and be easily reinstalled without affecting application on D:.

Buy a built one, and you may have to pay extra for the OS CD.
Your application and OS may be tied up in a bundled CD set.
Forget about selective reinstalls, you may have to wipe the whole HD and start over.

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by aiken:
Interesting, is it possible to replace water with another cooling agent, spirit or glycerin for example?
Of course they're not so effective (lower specific heat characteristics) but not so dangerous for electronics. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PPG is the poor mans pick for coolant, but water mixed with a good wetting agent is about as good as it gets. They usually add some color to help find the leaks and make it look cool too.

[ June 08, 2004, 18:38: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

[Aiken]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by aiken:
Interesting, is it possible to replace water with another cooling agent, spirit or glycerin for example?
Of course they're not so effective (lower specific heat characteristics) but not so dangerous for electronics. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PPG is the poor mans pick for coolant, but water mixed with a good wetting agent is about as good as it gets. They usually add some color to help find the leaks and make it look cool too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's PPG? Is it conducting fluid or not?

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by Cirvol:
Well, any liquid is really a waste compared to using a peltier cooler...

peltier is pretty cheap, no worries of condensation and liquids spilling on your uber mobo+cpu, and a pretty cool tech-doodad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pelts can be a pain in the butt. Condensate from frost is an issue and they suck up a lot of amps.

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by aiken:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Thermodyne:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by aiken:
Interesting, is it possible to replace water with another cooling agent, spirit or glycerin for example?
Of course they're not so effective (lower specific heat characteristics) but not so dangerous for electronics. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PPG is the poor mans pick for coolant, but water mixed with a good wetting agent is about as good as it gets. They usually add some color to help find the leaks and make it look cool too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's PPG? Is it conducting fluid or not? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Poly propoline glycal also know as pink automotive antifreeze.

[stevenb]

Ouch, rough story.
Revenge my friend is best served cold. You aren't the only person he sodomized, his list of clients would be numerous.
Likely would have beaten him down in his store and inserted an AGP card in his his incompatible A drive.
I'd rather spend 1500 on bail then waist it on some shyster lawyer.

There are more of these clowns out there then people realize. Just because someone has an A+ Certification, doesn't mean jack. Hell, I have one and I don't even work in the computer field.
Building your own computer doesn't mean it will cost less than a prebuilt machine. What it does mean is you'll have the ability to pick and choose brand name quality parts. That deal you see in the paper for a MB, fan, CPU, and Heatsink for 80 bucks isn't worth two dead flies.
Or how about some House brand generic RAM for your system?
Maybe one of them sweet 70 watt power supplies Gateway is known for will work in your game machine?
People slap this cheap crap together, then blame problems on the few name brand big items they focused on, such as their Nvida or ATI video card. Or how AMD/Pentium sucks because it conflicted with XYZ chipset.
Dells and Gateways are good for the payment plans and that's about it. A quality computer builder should be available within a day of down time. Quality parts have their own warantees as well. Case in point, I have two Western Digital 10,000 rpm hard drives in a RAID 0, they have 5 year factory warantees on each of them. So until 2008, I'm golden with them.
Hell, they even sell quality case and heatsink fans now with lifetime warantees.
If you're running into thermal issues, make sure you have a working fan that isn't caked with dirt. Same goes for the heatsink. Check to see that thermal grease has been applied between the processor and the heatsink. Make sure it was applied properly -- less is more.
Make sure you have a quality power supply able to handle the load of your system. Most burner issues are due to this alone. I recommend nothing less than 350 watts.
As of late for friends and family, I've been building systems on Windows XP Pro. This is typically the break down:
Pentium IV 2.4/2.8/3.0ghz Prescott core, 800mhz FSB

ABit MotherBoards IC7 series, highend gets IC7-MAX3, I prefer to use the IC7-MAX3 due to the decent onboard 5.1 Sound card, and a good gigbit lan card, duel RAID controlers along with the standard IDE headers. Lots of clearance even for the big Swiftech heatsinks.

512/1024mb RAM PC4000 (500mhz) 2.5 CAS GeIL/Corsair/Crucial/OCZ

Swifttech makes a great heatsink, Alpha's are okay as well. Swiftech's will accept larger fans. I put 92x92x25's on them.

Processor fans, go with Vantec. If you don't care about the noise, use the Tornado series, they are extremely loud though. Sounds like someone using a hair dryer in the other room, seriously. They move 84cfm though. Go with the stealth for a fan you can bearly hear. They push around 28cfm. More than enough with a good heatsink like the Swifttech. You need to strain to hear the computer turn on with the Stealth fan and a quiet PSU.

CRT monitors, usually 19 or 21 inch. Unless flatscreen is requested for looks. I like Viewsonic monitors.

For the hard drives, I like the Western Digital Raptor drives. 10,000 rpm, 8mb Cache. Only 37gb's though. They make a good C: drive. Additional hard drives with larger amounts of space can be used for non esential items or storage. My preference is to go with a RAID setup for extreme speed using the Raptors. IC7-MAX3 board comes equiped with the RAID support.

Name brand Power Supply Units (PSU's) are the way to go. No less than 350 watts. ENERMAX are good. They're shielded well, and don't have much power flux levels. They have a quiet line which are nice. If you have a few hard drives and/or a few CDROM/DVDROM's, you should go with the 425watt.

Video cards can be a touchy subject. Depending on what you are doing with the computer is typically what leads you to your choice. Nvidia and ATI are both good cards. Stay away from the budget line models. Even if you get a card that is a generation old, it is better to get the old high end unit. Don't spend over 300 - 350 on a card unless you've got money to burn. I run duel monitors on the Radeon ATI 9800 Pro 128mb ram. It hasn't met a game it couldn't whip with both screens at high resolution. Currently, going over 128mb or video ram is pointless. Very few games take advantage of this. Textures need to be more complicated (bigger) for this to help. Paying for this feature now is fruitless. The difference between 64 and 128 is nominal at best as well. Recently, its value is being slowly realized though.
Stay away from water and pelter cooling unless you know what you're doing. They aren't ment to be systems that run 24/7. Leaks can and will happen, just like the plumbing in your home.
A lot of times, adding blow holes and things of the sort do very little to the cooling of your system. Sometimes they actually hamper it. Instead of one smooth path for cool air to enter, and hot to exit, you create a turbulant area within the case which restricts airflow. Air must stay in one spot long enough to transfer heat to itself, before exiting the case. Think of how your thermostat works in your car.

To wrap it up, if you don't personally know someone who can build a quality system (not cheap) or can't build it yourself; go with a prebuilt name brand unit from a big seller like Gateway or Dell. Stay away from strip mall computer shops for builds, you're almost guaranteed to get some refurbished parts in the unit.
If anyone has any computer related questions, feel free to e-mail me or contact me on ICQ.
-Steve