OT: Despair

[Renegade 13]

Post removed by author.

[Will]

You may (or may not) be suprised about just how many people on these Boards know *exactly* what you are saying. It's great that you feel you can reach out here, and write down what your thoughts are.

Please know that people do care. Sometimes in the depths of depression, people can't see that they are surrounded by others that care. And that's what makes it so terrible. Continue to reach out to friends and family, and trust that they will reach out in return.

It is a little ambiguous from your post whether you are speaking of yourself, or someone you are close to. Regardless, my response will stay the same. Let us know what happens.

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by Will:
You may (or may not) be suprised about just how many people on these Boards know *exactly* what you are saying. It's great that you feel you can reach out here, and write down what your thoughts are.

Please know that people do care. Sometimes in the depths of depression, people can't see that they are surrounded by others that care. And that's what makes it so terrible. Continue to reach out to friends and family, and trust that they will reach out in return.

It is a little ambiguous from your post whether you are speaking of yourself, or someone you are close to. Regardless, my response will stay the same. Let us know what happens. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks a lot for your kind words. I greatly appreciate it.

And yes, I am speaking of myself, not someone close to me. Just to make it clear.

And thanks again.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Well, I guess I'll put it all up.

I've said before that I've got major depression. While that is entirely true, it's not the whole truth. I also suffer from schizophrenia. It explains part of why I'm goofy; as a stress release. The voices I hear are, quite simply, demonic.

But, with the grace of God and the help of my psychiatrist, prescription drugs and a lot of willpower, I rarely hear them any more.

So there is light at the end of the tunnel. It's taken me 4 years to get this far, but I have gotten there. Plus three years where I was, quite simply, crazy, although I mostly didn't show it. Perhaps this is why I never changed Pinky so he's smiling. Because it shows another part of the truth that I rarely show on the forums, these being my rest and relaxation place.

Other people know. Other people care.

[dogscoff]

I've not been clinically depressed myself but I've lived with and supported someone who has.

Go to your doctor and get some meds. They can ease the symptoms long enough for you to go see a cousellor and (hopefully) deal with the root causes of those symptoms.

Also, make sure you're getting your excercise and eating healthily. Whether it's a cause or a symptom is still unclear and still disputed, but body & brain chemistry changes significantly in clinically depressed ppl and looking after yourself can really help to beat the feelings of apathy & constant tiredness.

It's not easy, since depression does everything it can to steer you away from the things that will cure it, but in time it can be beaten, I know this from experience.

Feel free to email or PM me any time you like, about anything.

[Raging Deadstar]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
Well, I guess I'll put it all up.

I've said before that I've got major depression. While that is entirely true, it's not the whole truth. I also suffer from schizophrenia. It explains part of why I'm goofy; as a stress release. The voices I hear are, quite simply, demonic.

But, with the grace of God and the help of my psychiatrist, prescription drugs and a lot of willpower, I rarely hear them any more.

So there is light at the end of the tunnel. It's taken me 4 years to get this far, but I have gotten there. Plus three years where I was, quite simply, crazy, although I mostly didn't show it. Perhaps this is why I never changed Pinky so he's smiling. Because it shows another part of the truth that I rarely show on the forums, these being my rest and relaxation place.

Other people know. Other people care. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You too Narf? I'm for one glad there's someone else with it here, but i'm also sad for you as i know exactly what you are going through and how hellish it can get. Then again schizophrenia isn't as uncommon people think, i think it's 1-100 people.

Good news is I've stopped the medication a few months back and learned to cope, 4 or so years coming up now. I just got a letter from my Psychiatrist the other day saying i don't need to be visiting as often. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Good Luck to you Narf, I wish you all the best.

Renegade

I have a very strong stance when it comes to any sort of prescription drugs for reliance. They are extremely unpredictable (in my expirience). My advice would go to your doctor/GP and tell him/her how you're feeling. I've found medication doesn't help anywhere as near enough as a good Psychiatrist or councellor, i've had 3 so far and the 3rd has really helped, it all depends on just who you click with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Good luck to you too.

[ May 21, 2004, 18:25: Message edited by: Raging Deadstar ]

[Baron Munchausen]

And today the topic of Schizophrenia has come up on Slashdot. Quote:

jagercola@ignmail.com asks: "My sister was recently diagnosed with Schizophrenia (http://www.schizophrenia.com/family/sz.overview.htm). It's a chronic, severe, and disabling brain disease that we don't know a lot about. The movie, A Beautiful Mind, paints an accurate picture of how the disease affects someone in a best case scenario. I would like the vast audience here to help me understand the disease through experiences and that it might help me aid my sister. If you know someone who has the disease, how has it affected your and their life? How have you been able to cope with it? What are the long term implications for quality of life?"

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/21/0140239&mode=thread&tid=134&tid=166&tid=191&tid=99

[ May 21, 2004, 23:46: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Renegade 13]

Narf: I must say, thank you for sharing your experiences. It has encouraged me that there is indeed hope for depression. You mentioned medication: I really do not like taking medication. I prefer to let my body or my mind cure me. I don't want drugs that dull my mind, or artificially manipulate my body chemistry. However, I realize that this isn't always possible. You also mentioned willpower. That's the way I usually control my depression. I usually just....decide that I'm not going to be depressed. I don't know how to explain it, but within a few days of forcing myself to not be depressed, I go back to my normal, non-depressed self. However, this time, it isn't working for some reason. We'll see how it goes. As for psychiatrists, I really don't want to tell anyone my problems, or have anyone analyze me.

Dogscoff: I thank you sincerely for your encouragement. I also hadn't realized that constant tiredness was a symptom of depression, but now that I think about it, it makes sense. As for meds, well, my opinion on that is stated above.

RD: You have my sympathy for your schizophrenia. I know it doesn't mean much, and it doesn't help, but its true. Also, as you probably know, I agree with your opinion of medication to control problems. Sometimes they create problems of their own.

And I thank you all for reading this, and for your encouragement. It means a lot. I know that this isn't an easy subject for anyone to talk about.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I would try any medication for at least three months before giving up on it, unless it had obvious and bad side effects. I do want to get off the meds, but I've relized that they help a lot.

[Will]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
As for psychiatrists, I really don't want to tell anyone my problems, or have anyone analyze me.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldn't immediately rule out a psychiatrist. Most psychiatrists now work on the theory that the best person to analyze the patient is the patient. What they are there to do is provide an objective third party view on your thoughts, and to help you understand them. Once you understand your thoughts, it is easier to change them. But it all really does depend on who you go to. Like RD, it may take going to a few different ones to get one that works for you.

And dogscoff is right about taking care of yourself. If you are strict about eating correctly and exercising every day, it does wonders.

[Raging Deadstar]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
As for psychiatrists, I really don't want to tell anyone my problems, or have anyone analyze me.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah i can understand that one. I felt exactly the same, and i think when someone says "Psychiatrist" people get those goosebumps and the stuff conjured up in films appears.

It is a bit hit-and-miss, the first two i saw i really couldn't click with, it was awkward to the extreme. But the third one, Stuart, i really get on with. It's all confidential and they won't force you to take medication or anything, even if they feel it is needed (at least not in the UK) If you can feel comfortable talking to them sometimes it can even be fun, god knows i've had some interesting discussions with mine, and usually they don't ask about your "problems" all the time. If you can find one on your wave length then you'll feel comfortable talking to them. I've been seeing the one i have for 2 years now and i'd count him as a friend.

And thanks Tyrel (if it is your name??? you signed your first post with that lol) for the sympathy, although i really don't see it as a "disease" anymore. It can be hellish at times but it's been with me for 4 years, it's shaped who i am so it's brought good as well. Imagine, i might never had started playing SE4 if i'd never developed it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 22, 2004, 14:48: Message edited by: Raging Deadstar ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Even before I got to the end of it I was guessing 17. It reminded me way too much of me at 17. Not to belittle or anything but it seems like its a teen thing kindof like chicken-pox and measles are 6-9. Circumstances are probably different and can be disastrous but the dark cloud feels the same. For me I think it eventually turned out to be a good thing to have gone thru then rather than later (kindof like chicken pox and measles)

Whats fun is to do some personal dark-cloud poetry or music at an assembly and discover how many peers are feeling the same way. Surprisingly its often the ones you were using as comparison for how bad off you were. And you find out they were doing the same to to you, thinking you were the example of doing great compared to their sucky lives.

Sorry for the "old guy" viewpoint. Feel free disregard.

[ May 22, 2004, 15:54: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Imperial]

I was diagnosed with clinical depression baack in 2000. I am not crazy, But I had a lot of atypical behavior, thaughts, and feelings. I went to see a psychiatrist and then eventually to a councelor--and it is the best thing I have done. At first I didnt take medicine beacuse of the side effects--but they eventually all went away--now i take my meds daily and am fine. I hardly goto the councelor anymore--just mainly for reinforcement. I highly stress going to a doctor and to see a councelor as well. All your feelings etc will change and you will feel so much better--just remember that if you are prescribed medication to take it everyday (no excuses--dont forget) You will feel great and be able to cope much better.If you need to ask any questions just email me-- I know what your going through and how you feel.

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
And thanks Tyrel (if it is your name??? you signed your first post with that lol) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, that's my name. And thanks again for the advice.

Gandalf: I too believe that everyone goes through something like this at this point in their lives. However, severity and frequency does come into the equation. For example, myself again. This isn't a new thing. It's been plagueing me for about the Last 4 years. I know, it may seem like an affliction that everyone goes through at this stage of life, but I'm not so sure. And I sure hope that most people don't go through what I go through, and if they do, they hide it very well.

I can very well understand why you would believe this to be a problem just like the problems of any other teenage person. But I've talked to other people, and I dont' think that most people go through what I have and am. Perhaps I'm wrong. But I'd rather believe that I'm right, and that most other people don't have to suffer like I have.

[Renegade 13]

Imperial, thank you for your advice, encouragement, and support. I know that I should probably go to my doctor and maybe a councillor or something, get meds, etc. But for some reason I'm strangely hesitant to do so. I guess I've always thought I could handle it by myself, and so far I have. I dont' want to admit weakness I guess, and to admit to others that I have a problem. Pride I guess.

And thanks to everyone who has offered encouragement and suggestions. I am extremely grateful to you all.

[ May 22, 2004, 17:25: Message edited by: Renegade 13 ]

[Atrocities]

What can any one say to someone who has depression. It is the loneliest trip down memory lane that one can take. It is a mind virus, soul killing, life sucking, reality twisting parasite that leaves you feeling empty and beaten. It is the loniest feeling any one person could ever endure. I found this following statement one day on forum by a member fighting depression, and it think he does a nice job summing up how it effected him. The sad thing is, most people who are depressed feel this way daily and I am no exception. But life does go on if we take it one day at a time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I wish God didn't hate me so much. I have been so alone my entire life that all I now have is the desire to end it. Death is my only reprieve from this desperate despair that fills me so. The black hole that is my sole pulls on all the happy feelings like a gravity well pulls in light, leaving only the sad, lonely, helpless feelings of being the only man left standing on the battle field of dead memories and lost opportunities. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The one thing about depression is that it is an illness and all of its victims experience the same emotional symptoms. I think that is why so many employers and doctors are so supportive of people with depression. It really is like a virus that just eats away at you until you want to live no more and start making some very poor decisions about which end of the gun is pointed at you.

"No one understands, no ever will."
"I hate life, why bother living."
"I just want to die, death is my only hope for peace."
"No one loves me, I am alone."
"Nothing matters, it all is for not."
"We are all going to die so why live on?"
"I know how the story ends so why continue reading the book."

I have heard all of these and have even asked some of them myself. I have no answers for any of them. Each person must ultimately fight depression in their own way. Knowing it is an illness that has infected your mind helps me to fight it. No one knows why it comes, why the despair is so deep that it hurts at your very core, deep deep down inside, as if your heart itself could feel sorrow and is crying out in pain. Or when you’re asleep and your mind cries so powerfully that you wake up in tears with the deepest sadness that you have ever felt in your life. A sadness so deep that it feels as if every fiber of your being cried out "why" all at once. A moan of despair that comes from some place deep inside of your soul, announcing its own death or hibernation so to speak that leaves you with an empty feeling which words lack the ability to describe.

It hurts on so many levels that death becomes more and more palatable. But again that is how the disease kills, it makes you kill yourself. If you know this, then you can fight it. You can fight it, and any one with this curse should fight it.

To give in is to say that you truly have nothing to live for, or that your sadness has no end. For those few I can only sympathies with for they are, truly alone.

Don't let depression kill you, its not worthy enough.

[ May 22, 2004, 18:13: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[Raging Deadstar]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
And thanks Tyrel (if it is your name??? you signed your first post with that lol) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, that's my name. And thanks again for the advice.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's No problem, Most people find it hard to admit it to friends, never mind ask a community they visit, you've taken a brave step just by posting this here. I hope you find a way to keep yourself feeling good. Just remember that Psychiatrists, Councellors and Medication Are Not the only ways. In the end it's you as a person who will defeat it.

Good Luck for the future. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 22, 2004, 18:23: Message edited by: Raging Deadstar ]

[Aiken]

Depression and despair are common things in our crazy world. Look at me. Am I sociopath? Yes. Reserved introvert? Yes. Paranoid? Yes (of late time, though, due to RL problems). Am I a patient of the psychiatrist? NO. And I'm not going to visit him.
I'm clearly understand that I'm abnormal, sometimes inadequate - I think different than most part of other people around me, a lot of human's fetiches are nothing for me and vice versa. So the question: why should I want to be normal? This world is not normal, it's too close to hell to be normal, and I'm not desire to be another demon in the crowd.
Sure, all this depress me. It's the common human instinct - to be the part of a pride, and resistance is difficult. But suicide is loss. We're affected by crowd opinion - diversity is danger, but throw it away, it's not worth your life.
Maybe I'm wrong, but until it concerns only me I will go my own way, even if would cost me money, success, popularity or other REAL_MAN_OBJECT_OF_LIFE.

[Phoenix-D]

You can be screwed up all you want. I have my own problems, certainly. Just remember when it starts negatively impacting other people its gone too far.

Mostly directed at aiken, with the sociopathic comment. I don't know if you actually -are- but personal events this weekend have lowered my tolerance for that quite a lot.

[Atrocities]

There are many conditions that affect the mind, and even many more minds that affect the condition. Retorical BS but for the love of God its so true.

What I hate most is that the people around me who claim to know me, don't. They have spent their lives trying to figure me out, but in the end, they were attempting to understand an enigma that has no solution therefore they refuse to accept the truth, I am one of millions of people around the world that are simply and catagorically considered weird. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Heres to being us, even if its a painful and lonely life.

[Aiken]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Mostly directed at aiken, with the sociopathic comment. I don't know if you actually -are- but personal events this weekend have lowered my tolerance for that quite a lot. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Phoenix-D, if you think that one day I'll take a petrol saw in my hands to avenge for my loneliness - you're wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I don't want to ruin ones lifes while earning tons of money or making my carer. I don't want to break families if I would like to sleep with someones wife. I don't want all these things, considered as life by many people. I speak rarely (well, this forum is an exception http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), behave myself polite, until someone infuriate me - then I'll simply stop contacting him/her. I don't want to cause problem to people, but I WANT other people to stop causing problems to me. It's so simple, but unrealistic, to my regret.

[Imperial]

going to any doctor and or a councelor can be tough. I went through 4 psychiatrists before i found one that I liked and was comfortable with. The same with medication--I went through about 6 or 7 different kinds before I found one that worked for me. Its trial and error, but for me it was well worth it. My councelor is perhaps the best treatment i have-- he gives me advice to cope, listens and hears and directs me in what to do. It is however your choice, I gaurantee you will feel better if you got treatment.

[Phoenix-D]

Yeah, I know you probably wouldn't. I'm just on edge like I mentioned.

[Atrocities]

Oh God can I tell you horror stories about the psychiatrists I have had to deal with.

So yes, finding one that you CAN trust, and CAN talk to is VERY important. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Most will just want to give you more drugs, and drugs are only good for dealing with the symptoms, not the cause. And most drugs are eneffective or effective in ways with costs.

Counselers are ok, but an hour seems damn short for me. I am not a gangster so I the cost of seeing one as often as is prescribed is to high. But yes, talking to them does help somewhat and should be explored if you can.

Aiken, we all just want people to stop hurting us, and for the most part non of us want to hurt others. Well except for those GD cell phone using, Hummer drivers who think because they are ruch yuppies that they are above the law and can ignor traffic laws. Those SOB's I do want to hurt, and hurt horribly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Then your not a sociopath. A sociopath wouldn't consider others feelings.
Originally posted by aiken:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Mostly directed at aiken, with the sociopathic comment. I don't know if you actually -are- but personal events this weekend have lowered my tolerance for that quite a lot. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Phoenix-D, if you think that one day I'll take a petrol saw in my hands to avenge for my loneliness - you're wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I don't want to ruin ones lifes while earning tons of money or making my carer. I don't want to break families if I would like to sleep with someones wife. I don't want all these things, considered as life by many people. I speak rarely (well, this forum is an exception http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), behave myself polite, until someone infuriate me - then I'll simply stop contacting him/her. I don't want to cause problem to people, but I WANT other people to stop causing problems to me. It's so simple, but unrealistic, to my regret. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[primitive]

Renegade:

I'll just add my voice to the others. Go see someone !

Occasional depressions is a part of most peoples life (unless they are totally braindead). I too have had my share. Allthough maybe not as severe as yours, sometimes the depression would go on more or less continually for several years. Beeing the tough guy, I always believed I could handle it myself (and I usually could) and I did not seek any help for it. I managed to pass 40 before before my friends "forced" me to go see a shrink during a bad patch. Should have gone 20 years ago, would have saved me a lot of grief.

[Renegade 13]

How can you survive total heartbreak?? How can it be that some people's live totally suck, while other people fare much better. How can we even endure life, when death is a much better option in many ways, an option that is always there, and always tempting. Is it possible to survive the complete betrayal by a person you love?? Can you?? I don't think so. I think that's why people kill themselves, to escape the pain that life is giving them. To make it stop, once and for all. However, that's the easy option, the cowardly option. It takes true strength sometimes, just to live, just to endure another day of the absolute misery and torture that life provides you as you lot in life.

[Loser]

When I got my heart broken the first time . . . the only time really worth reference. Anyway, when it happened to me I found a little ritual that helped me hold it together.

Every morning when I showered, when I was done, I would turn the hot water off and stand under the cold water for a few minutes. While the cold water surrounded me and my body yelled at me about discomfort and hypothermia I couldn't feel anything else. I did this for six months.

It was a daily release, an opportunity to let go of the problem for a few mintues, because I coudn't hold on to it if I didn't try then. And that's what a guy needs when he's in that place.

Most everything painfull, the things that make us mad and bitter and weak, are memories. They are things in the past that we need to release. Letting go of things is hard, damn hard, but it's the key to happiness, to satisfaction and to peace.

In order to reach peace we must forgive ourselves and others. The more we rail against our failures, the world, or the individuals in it the more we build up the wall of pain that separates us from peace. The majority of this wall must be torn down before anything like Lasting peace can be found, and to tear it down we must let go of those things we hold agaisnt ourselves and others.

Like anything worthwhile, it takes time.

[Renegade 13]

I think your ritual is a good one. Think i'll try that. My way really doesn't work that well....getting drunk really isn't that good of an idea, it only delays the pain and makes it worse in the end.

You talk of forgiveness. I must ask you, how long does it take to forgive someone who has broken your trust in such an aggregious way?? She means everything to me, and she...well i'm not gonna get into that right now. Suffice it to say that I feel like ****. Nothing can help that, nothing can salve the pain. It sure as hell doesn't help that I'm prone to depression, and this has f****** pushed me over the edge.

Memories... i suppose we have to have memories to learn from our mistakes. But is it really a mistake to love someone?? I would gladly make the mistake again, even though it causes so much pain. Even now, i still love her. If she wanted me, i would go back to her.

Why is it that members of the opposite sex always make us feel like ****?? Why do we pursue relationships that ultimately lead to pain and suffering and bitterness? Its human nature i guess. lol for being drunk i hope i'm making sense.

Emotional pain...is the worst thing any man or woman can experience.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Every day my mind crumbles a little more. Every day I have to rebuild.

I think I am a stronger person now than before.

[ July 16, 2004, 04:57: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[Renegade 13]

The waves of despair eat away at the protective walls of your mind, day by day. I know the feeling. Reinforcement takes all your strength.

[tesco samoa]

i did...

Remember it is not a mistake... but a lession... do it twice its a mistake..

but there are some good lessons to learn here.

1. take the time that you two had together and think about all the good things that happened... Remember them.
2. take the time that stuff did not work out. remember them and in the future learn from them.

3. take the time that things fell apart and be glad it happened now. Not 10 or 20 years down the road...

4. Take the time now to not bother the other person. If you need to see them or talk to them. Do not do it. If you do randomly see them. Smile and say hello and thats it. If they ask how are things going. Say that your are ok. And repeat the question. Then say that it was nice to see you and tell them to have a nice day. Then carry on your day. Do not freak out. Do not say stuff that you do not mean. Do not say stuff that you do mean. Some times it is better to be a little indiffernt for respect for a person you once liked/loved.... Remeber they are feeling emotions as well. And it is better to not ruin all the time you spent together with the time that you did not spend together. It is a hard lesson to learn that one. But trust me on it. And this lesson will help you with future relationship break ups as well... I have seen a few people freak out... and just go all weird and I feel act a little scary. You must avoid that at all cost.

Other things such as do not talk about it all the time is a good one as well. Bring it up with your good friend. But keep it at that level. Any one else asks you about your previous partner. Speak nicely about them. Keep it short and keep it simple.

If your lucky you will have your heart broke a few times over the next few years. Most people are not that lucky to experience a few good relationships.

Good luck and enjoy your next relationship.

You will know if the next one is going to be better or worse based on your experence of this relationship... If it is worse. Bail.

If it is better. Build on it.

Learn. Enjoy. And most of always show respect to a person you once loved or still love. Even if you hate them for a while.

And make a great mix tape or mix cd right now with music on how your feeling... And keep it...

It is good for laughs later on...

I have a few... And listen to them every few years...

Brings a smile to my face every time...

[Loser]

Yeah, drinking doesn't help. It might seem like it does, but it doesn't.

Memory, the knowlege that you have wronged or been wrong, is the Adamic Burden. It is this knowlege of Good and Evil, of Right and Wrong, and the ability to apply it to our own lives that makes us something more than animals, and it is our suspension in time, uncertain of the furture and chained to an unchangeable past, that makes us a something less than the angles.

It's not a bad rub or an unfair deal, it is simply that which makes us what we are.

The more we dwell on any one memory, the closer we hold it and its consequences to ourselves, the more powerfull it is made to be, the more difficult it will be to escape it. If a grudge weighs heavily on you, do your best not to think of it. You cannot simply deny that it is there, so you must keep your mind and your hands busy.

Pursue activities that engage the mind, or that require such total concenrtation that you cannot think of anything else. As much as possible, keep you mind filled with other things or empty on the cusp of reaction required in 'twitch' games and physical activities of agility.

Most improtantly, decide to forgive. When you are willing to do so, and when enough time has passed without the pain being renforced on a daily basis, you will be able to release those who have wronged you from any burden.

Sometimes one thing that helps me is to see the person against which I would hold a grudge as helpless and incapable. This contempt, this denial of their accountability makes it easier to pitty and condescend agianst them, rather than hate them.

This is just an intermidiate step, of course. You want to forgive them entirely, not make excuses for them. Sometimes we need those baby steps, though.

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
Emotional pain...is the worst thing any man or woman can experience. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are worse things. There are physical pains that hurt worse than the closest betrayal. Most of us never have to deal with them.

[edit: tesco's advice is great, espeically #4

what happened to the domokun?]

[ July 16, 2004, 05:11: Message edited by: Loser ]

[mac5732]

Nice guys, eventually win out in the end, you just have to wait and give it time.. Remember, never try to be something or someone your not. That is the worst thing one can do and you will regret it in the long run. Always be yourself, and if someone doesn't like it, tough, sooner or later, someone will come along, usually when you least expect it, and like you for yourself.

Example. I met my wife, when I pulled her over one night with her girl friend. towed the car, pulled them down to the station, called friend father to come and get them.... she was nasty, snotty, obnoxcious, smart mouthed, etc. Month later saw her at local bar, began talking with her, and to make long story short, married her 3 yrs later....

so always look on the bright side, what was meant to be will be and nothing you can do will change it. Just be yourself, have faith in yourself, and rmember, its her loss, not yours. Its all a part of life's trials and you will experience more in your life. Don't let something like this get you down, look on the bright side, you woke up this morning, and any day that happens, is a good day no matter what else takes place... besides you have many friends here, and most if not all of us have at one time or the other gone thru the same thing, some easier others harder...

you take care

[ July 16, 2004, 05:03: Message edited by: mac5732 ]

--------------------
just some ideas Mac

[Atrocities]

Living for most of us is a day to day thing. When crap is piled upon us by RL we find it hard to burdon the load and think of the bliss that is death. But honestly speaking death is over rated. When you succeed at it, you will never know because your dead. If you fail, then you will know, and most likely regret having treid. So for your sake I hope that you find life more desireable then the big nothing.

And follow tesco samoa advice. He nailed it.

Good luck.

[ July 16, 2004, 05:54: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[Renegade 13]

Thank you all for the advice and words of encouragement. It means a lot to me. Its kind of ironic though...I have more friends here than I do anywhere else! I suppose all we can do is live life day to day, and take what gets thrown at us.

[Atrocities]

Your welcome. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Atrocities]

A while back Tom Cruise had some kind of altercation with some new reporter about depression and the "accepted" cause for it and many mental health problems.

While I did not see the airing of this interview for myself, I did note that there was a lot of hoop'la'do about it and that many mental health professionals wigged out over what he was saying.

I know first hand how mental health professionals seem to group all mental health issues into one large catagory, "chemical imbalance." While there is no real way to test for this, they often prescribe a morid of medications ranging from RIDDLIN to PROZAC.

I was prescribed such a medication for a sever bought of depression in 1999. This medication later was proven to have caused severe damage to the pancrease and liver. As a result of having taken this medication my pancrease failed and I lost a kidney. I am now plagued by diabeties, excessive weight gain, and boughts of fatigue that often last for weeks. Oh ya, and depression.

At the time I had no idea just how bad things would get or that the people I trusted to help me were little more than witch doctors using me for experimintation. While I was precluded from seeking major damages, one cannot sue an HMO, I was given some help best described as squat.

So when Tom Cruise went off on what has now been characterized as a rambling incomprehendable rant about the Psychiatrist profession and their habitual bad habbits of prescribing medications to just about any one who makes the mistake of walking through their door, it made me think a bit. So I did some research and what I found scared the utter hell out of me. One must be very, very careful now and seriously weigh the pros and cons of taking any medication prescribed by a psychiatrist. I think the best thing would be to say "use at own risk" and if it helps you great, but what is it really doing to you?

I think Tom might be right, it just might all be a huge scam designed to hook us all on pills that none of us really need.

(For extreme depression, some anti-depressent do help keep you from acting upon impulses, so don't count them all out. If your in a bad way, better to be alive then not. Take the pills but becareful.)


More Info (http://h11.protectedsite.net/index.cfm) Be advised that this also a scientology link... So take the info with a degree of skeptisim. (Not all of what they say is BS, judge for yourself at this point.)

[dogscoff]

Re Atrocities &amp; anti-depressants:
Anti-depressant medication can work and it is a very valuable tool to be used against a truly hideous condition.
Forget cancer &amp; AIDS, depression is the true plague of the 21st century.

Anyway, anti-depressants are not the only tool, and are not ideal for long-term use. They're good for giving you a little stability while you address the causes of your depression, but I do believe they are addictive (even if 'only' psychologically addictive) and can mess you up. There can also be side effects, so they should only be prescribed with care, and with an eye to working on other solutions (like counselling, exercise, diet and lifestyle changes) to the depression in the meantime so that one day the meds will be no longer necessary. Your doctor should help you with these things when prescribing the meds. If s/he doesn't, and seems to be offering the drugs as a complete solution, then consider going to a different doctor.

On another note, many sufferers of depression (although I think this is only good for mild depression) swear by St John's Wort. You can pick it up at any health food shop. Apparently it reduces depressive feelings without damping other emotions in the process. However it does have its own side effects and doesn't mix well with some other drugs, so research carefully.

EDIT: Just realised how old this thread is. That was a very stealthy bit of necromancy, AT.

[Atrocities]

Forget cancer &amp; AIDS, depression is the true plague of the 21st century.



You will get no arguement from me.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Atrocities said:

Forget cancer &amp; AIDS, depression is the true plague of the 21st century.



You will get no arguement from me.



I disagree.....

Cancer is bad, yes, but we DO have ways to cure it, albeit you don't hear a lot about them. Radiation treatment, chemotherapy, yes there are people who do it all and still die but there are also enough people who take those therapies and live. It's a very nasty disease, but not a plague per se.

AIDS, well, the scourge of the third world, people die by it every day, this is a true plague, but a plague of the third world.

Depression is the plague of the first world.

I've been depressed, and contemplated killing myself, but I didn't have such a deep depression as I've read about in this thread. I wholeheartedly agree that depression is a rather terrible affliction, but when people say it's a worse plague than AIDS, well, think about this: How many people die as a result of depression (suicide, carelessness, etc.) every year? And how many people die of AIDS every year?

QED.

[Atrocities]

Cancer, Aids, Depression, they are all horrible. To many of us have lost family to all of these.

I wish I could resolve the thingsthat cause my depression. I know that there is really no way that I will eve know peace. To much bad history in my life. I know that I, like so many others who fight depression, regret and dispair are our life long companions. The might have beens, what ifs just eat us up a little bit each day from the inside. I have so many regrets in my life that I honestly don't know why I don't punch out and call it quits. Perhaps I am a coward, perhaps I am just hanging on to the thin hope that there is always hope. To many regrets, not enough good memories. I doubt any medication could ever make it all better. So we suffor, but for the most part, we go on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[dogscoff]

AIDS, well, the scourge of the third world, people die by it every day, this is a true plague, but a plague of the third world.

Depression is the plague of the first world.




This I agree with. I should have said it first time around, and for that I'm sorry.



but when people say it's a worse plague than AIDS, well, think about this: How many people die as a result of depression (suicide, carelessness, etc.) every year? And how many people die of AIDS every year?

QED.




From a little limited googling of Uk statistics, suicide appears to be at least as prolific a killer as AIDS. However it there seems to be quite a bit of difficults for organisations to compile statistics on suicide (which kind of emphasises the points I make later). Here are some links to get you started:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nscl.asp?ID=7441
http://www.avert.org/statindx.htm

Even without statistics though, my point is that there is a hell of a lot of research and awareness about AIDS. (In the 1st world) You can get yourself tested for AIDS quickly and cheaply pretty much anywhere in the 1st world without any hassle. If you're diagnosed, there are all kinds of treatments available which may still not offer a cure, but nowadays can make life entirely livable for a long time. What's more, the disease is easily preventable by abstaining from certain risky activities. Huge education campaigns to educate people, dispel myths, combat stigma and prevent the spread of AIDS have been very successful, so most AIDS sufferers will be not only receiving support but actively doing their best to avoid passing the infection on within a short time of contracting the disease. As a result the number of sufferers in the western world is relatively low. Furthermore, with the amount of cash going into research a cure is bound be discovered sooner or later.

Depression, on the other hand, often goes years undiagnosed. When it is diagnosed sufferers are often treated unsympathetically by friends, family and even medical professionals. There is a very real stigma and a massive amount of ignorance surrounding depression. What's more, many of those doctors who do recognise the seriousness of the problem think they can just push a few pills down the patient's neck and say it's cured- but as stated in previous posts treating only the symptoms is counter-productive. And although it may be only a small minority depression sufferers who die of suicide, many many more suffer for years, their relationships, families and jobs may be ruined. While depression is (arguably) curable, it does everything it can to protect itself: Sufferers withdraw from the world, they push away those people who would help them and often feel too tired and hopeless to take any positive steps toward getting better.

My main beef with depression though, is that it is not a virus or a bacteria that can be physically attacked and overwhelemd. Unlike with AIDS, where the causes (unsafe sex, drug abuse) are recognised as unhealthy and are discouraged, the causes of depression are an integral part of the society we live in. Contemporary western society is constantly making more and more unreasonable demands of its population. Many people can't stay financially afloat on a 40 hour week any more. Most families need both parents as wage-earners just to keep the bill-collectors of their backs. Young men and women are forever assaulted by bombarded and unobtainable expectations of glamour, cool and wealth. Thanks to advertising, economics and media, without even knowing it most people in the 1st world today are living under a weight of pressure that their great-grandparents could only have imagined, and this isn't even widely recognised as a problem. Wages are falling. Taxes are rising. Services are failing. Wealth and power are gravitating ever further away from the larger part of the population. Humans beings are increasingly seen as commodities within economic systems, their needs and rights nothing more than obstacles to be broken down or bypassed. And yet as ignorance and apathy reach epidemic proportions most people don't even bother to vote any more, and all the time we're being told that this is the shining new future that previous generations dreamed of. Society and community are crumbling, caught in a vicious circle of apathy and self-loathing and feelings of powerlessness, victimisation and misrepresentation. You could argue that Western Culture itself is depressive, if you wanted to get particularly poetic about it. That's why more and more people are getting depressed, and that's why the 21st century will see depression on an unprecedented level. The scary thing though, is that will take nothing short of a social revolution to reverse the trend. If it isn't already, depression will be the plague of the 21st century (in the first world).


&lt;/rant&gt;

[Hunpecked]

Thanks, dogscoff, for that ray of sunshine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Raging Deadstar]

Considering I do voluntary work on a telephone helpline to give emotional support to distressed and suicidal people you'd think I'd know these statistics.

*rummages*

Ok, These are World Health Organisation estimates and statistics.

They believe in 2005 AIDS claimed between 2.8/3.6 million.

They believe that since the millenium Suicide has claimed between 750,000 - 1 million people a year.

Cancer claims 7 million a year, with 11 million newly diagnosed cases every year, estimated to be 16 million by 2020.

[Renegade 13]

SIU, I'm not so sure you're correct.

In my extended family, there have been many many people who have passed away from suicide. None have from AIDS.

As Dogscoff said, the causes of AIDS are well known and easily preventable. AIDS could be exterminated without a cure even being found, if people had half a brain. Depression isn't "acquired" like AIDS is. It generates spontaneously out of the circumstances of a person's life. But Dogscoff has said it better than I can, so I'll leave it at that.

AT, I'd be careful what you believe when you read a Scientology website. Their beliefs are rather...different from those of most people. I'm not saying they're wrong about everything, but I'd take everything with a grain of salt about the size of Greenland. For example, from what I've gathered, they do not condone any medical intervention with regards to depression. It is known that when people are suffering from a major depressive episode, and are likely to kill themselves, medication can help to prevent this. It is known that chemical imbalances are often present in victims of depression. Resolving these imbalances likely will not address the cause of the imbalances, but can help in the short term. They aren't a long-term solution. I was on antidepressants for a while. I took myself off them (I know, you're not supposed to do that, but oh well). Sure, they made me not feel depressed. They made me feel nothing at all. It was like walking around in a fog all day long, it ruined cognitive skills and erased the ability to feel emotion. It acomplished it's purpose, but at a price I was not willing to pay. I believe due to the medication, I have no memory at all of several months of my life. Now, I'm not saying medication isn't necessary, because it is. It definitely is. But not for everyone.

I'm also wondering, do you remember the name of the drug that ravaged your pancreas and kidney? I'd like to do some research on it.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Atrocities said:
Cancer, Aids, Depression, they are all horrible. To many of us have lost family to all of these.

I wish I could resolve the thingsthat cause my depression. I know that there is really no way that I will eve know peace. To much bad history in my life. I know that I, like so many others who fight depression, regret and dispair are our life long companions. The might have beens, what ifs just eat us up a little bit each day from the inside. I have so many regrets in my life that I honestly don't know why I don't punch out and call it quits. Perhaps I am a coward, perhaps I am just hanging on to the thin hope that there is always hope. To many regrets, not enough good memories. I doubt any medication could ever make it all better. So we suffor, but for the most part, we go on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


It's not cowardice to face life. Living is hard. Dying is easy.

[Atrocities]

AT, I'd be careful what you believe when you read a Scientology website. Their beliefs are rather...different from those of most people.



Oh I take it with a huge - huge - grain of salt. But given what had happened to me, how the medication hurt me so, you cannot discount everything that is said.

I do not subscribe to their - scientology - religion, but their statements, supported by some facts, regarding the mental health profession with there seemingly "pescribe the world" philosophy does have some merit.

[Suicide Junkie]

Society in general is in a pill-popping phase.

Everything was supposed to be coming in pill form, like on the Jetsons.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

The pills have been a great help to me.

Unfortunatly, so far the've been a help and not a cure. Which is not fun, sometimes.

[Atrocities]

Hell my current doctor, a new one since my PCP moved out of state last year, is one of those doctors that really pisses me off.

She is what I like to refer to as "Reset To Zero." Each time I see her, she has completely forgotten my previous visits. I have seen here now once a month for four months about the SAME back pain. And each time she refers me to PT and tells me that she will have an X-Ray done but she knows that "they will find nothing."

Well they did find moderate damage in Decemeber, and she was surprised when I mentioned this.

She asked me what I want her to do about? WTF? I want you to give me something for GD pain and stop sending me the GD PT because that [censored] isn't working! GIVE ME PILLS WOMEN!

[Saber Cherry]

A while back Tom Cruise had some kind of altercation with some new reporter about depression and the "accepted" cause for it and many mental health problems.

While I did not see the airing of this interview for myself, I did note that there was a lot of hoop'la'do about it and that many mental health professionals wigged out over what he was saying.



Tom Cruise has no right to say anything that was not scripted, and he has demonstrated this. I can only guess how many lives were wasted due to that utterance, or how much money the Church of the Pyramid Scheme has stolen through his influence. But in fairness, most mental health professionals have no right to accept money from patients. Those who say psychiatry is a scam are right... but only insofar as radical Libertarians are right. For all the wrong done by governments, all their stupidity, incompetence, unnecessary suffering, warfare, taxation, bigotry, unfair imprisonment, and so forth... the good ones make the world a much better place, for almost all of their citizens.

Most computer games are trash. Should we give up on the computer game industry? ...no... just be more discerning, and realize that a playing bad game does not imply that games are bad.


I know first hand how mental health professionals seem to group all mental health issues into one large category, "chemical imbalance."



I'm empathetic with your experience, but the converse is also true. There are psychiatrists that deny chemistry and psychology are related. These people are retarded and their platform will die of old age, much like "geologists" who denied plate tectonics. All emotion arises from chemicals, just as all processes in any organism are based on chemicals. This does not imply that chemical mechanisms are the best treatment for all disorders (e.g. excercise is almost universally favored over muscle-building steroids when recovering from surgery or lameness). But it would be folly to suggest that a non-allergic person with "Strep Throat" should "tough it out" rather than taking cheap Amoxicillin, when Strep can migrate to the heart and cause death in mere days - as happened to someone from my high school whose parents were the "tough it out" types.

In parts of the world where prescriptions are used (a seemingly necessary evil of government... note that these are the same countries where pharmacies give you medicine, rather than capsules full of chalk dust), doctors are the gatekeepers. Gatekeepers can be stupid and inept, and often have egos larger than the city walls. You may be smarter than your doctor, even in his field. But nonetheless, they serve a vital purpose, and should not be discounted! If given the choice between humbling yourself before someone you feel is incompetent and committing suicide, humility is the logical course... even for a trivial chance of success.

This may sound a bit negative, but unfortunately, that's the state of the world. In real medicine, corruption is minimized (compared to e.g. the insurance industry or tax collection), because chopping off the wrong leg or letting patients go blind due to gross negligence will get you fired... eventually. However, the mental health field has no good metrics. Depressed people are too depressed to sue, and they assume everything's their fault anyway. People don't publicize mental problems. While a knee surgery or heart transplant or antibiotic will be immediately "successful" or "unsuccessful", a psychologist can string a person along for years, and mind-altering drugs typically carry the proviso that they "may take several months to become effective". So the rampant malpractice is very hard to detect, let alone nail down.

My best friend is in medical school, and it's given me a great insight into the pathetic state of the industry. He was number 1 in his class at a top-notch US medical school (which will remain unnamed). The specialty to which he applied accepts only two students from the schools own medical school, and everyone else from other schools. My friend was denied residency at his own school in favor of two minorities (I'm just stating facts here; I'm not left-wing, right-wing, Nazi, KKK, Mormon, or a member of any other radical fundamentalist group) who were both in the bottom 20% of the class. He was not accepted at any of the other schools to which he applied, even the safeties, as they knew he would be accepted at his first choice (for residency, the applicant's choices and rankings are known to the schools, and binding - if your first choice accepts you, you must attend), and they had a better chance of landing good students if the programs gave higher rankings to people they thought would realistically attend.

Well, the medical school residency admission system is designed by idiots, since the smart people are busy doing real work. But the fact is that while there is gross incompetence, the doctors (nowadays) aren't the ones who develop drugs - they just prescribe them. If you have cancer, or macular degeneration, or chronic headaches, you may have to go to multiple idiots that string you along before you visit the smart doctor who paid attention in medical school, and cures your problem. As an example, my mother was stricken with severe, crippling vertigo - so bad she thought she would die, and could not stand - about a year ago (and by the way, vertigo and headaches are the realm of brain doctors, so this is not unrelated to the topic). She visited our family practitioner (who is honestly quite a bright guy, IMO). She went to a specialist, recommended by him. She got an MRI. The conclusion - she may have had a minor stroke; sympotoms might go away over time. The symptoms persisted on and off for months, with (rare) occasional regressions such that she couldn't leave bed for the day. In the interim, I took a neuroscience class (related to my artificial intelligence specialty) that specifically mentioned "otoliths", little deposits that form in the inner ear (Latin for "ear stones"), and did not make the connection. Then, a year later, I saw a New York Times article describing those exact same symptoms, with a case history, and it clicked - my mom's vertigo was caused by these otoliths, brushing against inner-ear cilia and chaotically interfering with the fluid density gradient, disrupting her sense of balance!

There are a well-known (in the medical community, since the 1980's) set of head maneuvers that dislodge these stones and restore a person to normality, in just minutes. No multi-thousand-dollar MRI, no months of suffering, nothing. I was excited, and emailed the link to my mom. Then, I thought I'd test my friend's skills, and called him, describing her symptoms... and after about 2 minutes of description, he said, "Sounds like otoliths. Those can be relocated and the symptoms eliminated by using the Epley manuevers." I was shocked, but then realized, "He's an ENT (Ear, Neck, Throat) specialty... I guess he should know." I said that, and he said, "No, any doctor would know that." To test this, I had him give the same set of symptoms to his fiance, a dermitologist (just started residency). And she said, "Isn't that just (some medical term) caused by otoliths? Why on Earth was she given an MRI?"

What is the point of this story? Mental problems are mysterious. Even if there is a well-known scientific basis for something, mental problems will still be treated as mysterious by those who don't know it. They will tell you the brain is still a big mystery, etc, etc, rather than sending you to someone who knows their **** to get your problem solved. Even smart people can randomly not have the right information to solve a given problem, despite easily solving other problems. So you have to take the initiative, and "fire" people, until you randomly draw a doctor who can correctly solve your problem. Doctors are not commodities, like taxi drivers and waiters and those people at the info desks in malls - a second, third, or twentieth opinion is sometimes needed to save your life or sanity, so don't just take the first one to pull up to the curb, or the one your insurance company mandates.

Back to depression: It's caused by chemicals. There are other chemicals that can reduce it in some people. There are over 20 of them; nobody knows how to tell which are useful on which people, or which side effects will manifest. Some people respond best to psychotherapy, and some to lifestyle changes; but most people with severe clinical depression only respond to drugs, and even the groups that respond to other treatments typically respond to drugs as well.

These drugs are not perfect, because even if they work for someone, they typically have nontrivial side effects. They are sort of like ancient transfusions, which only worked because everyone in the area transfusions were invented had Type-O blood, even though the people at the time had no concept of surface proteins, allergies, and immune-system rejection. In other words, if any other treatment works, then use it instead... and consider yourself a lucky minority. Otherwise, you gamble until you hit the jackpot. If a doctor looks at you and says, "I think you ought to try drug X" or "My experience is that drug Y is the best" then he's either been paid off by a drug company (true of virtually all doctors, though most don't let it affect their decisions) or he's just a moron with no understanding of statistics and sample sizes.

My suggestion to depressed people, who have never seen (or not been helped by) a doctor:
1) Visit a doctor. Period. If you have tried this, then visit a different doctor.
2) Research your condition and its treatments yourself, intensively. Doctors are fallible, but mental doctors are protected by a safety net of mystery - nobody can really know, let alone prove, that they've never helped anyone. Going in blind is like going to Vegas without knowing how to play cards.
3) You can pick any form of treatment you want. Medicines work directly on the symptoms, in a very crude way. "Therapy" works indirectly, requires a much more skilled doctor, takes much longer, and works much less frequently; however, when itdoes work, it's the best - since you're solving the problem rather than the symptoms. Unfortunately, genetic problems (e.g. a specific mental disorder that runs in your family) cannot be resolved by psychotherapy any more than a depressed Bahaman can be treated by light therapy (which is often successful on depressed Alaskans).
4) Don't put up with any crap. It's your money, your time, your body, and your life. If a (medicinal) treatment is not working after two weeks, and your doctor insists it will take several months before you know for sure, can him - he's milking you. The medical industry has published studies that seem to back this up, but they're bull****. The smoking industry has published studies indicating cigarettes are safe, too. Typically side effects of mind-altering drugs are most pronounced at first and decrease over time; so yes, they do change over time. But they act directly on your brain chemistry and almost universally have a system-halflife of a week or less. So if they aren't effective in two weeks, try something else - they probably won't magically become more effective after 2 more months. If your doctor refuses to let you switch, or ever pulls out some ego-boosting authoritative "I'm the doctor" or "I'm the expert", find a new doctor, and explain to him up front why you left the old one.

R13: You're Canadian. If you experience seasonal depression (worse in the winter compared to summer) I suggest looking into light therapy. If not, and if you've had depression constantly (or chronically) for the last couple years, without recurring crises (parents' divorce, followed by being dumped, followed by your dog dying, etc - healthy young people don't stay depressed for years after a single incident) - and especially considering your family history of suicide - I suggest you give antidepressants a second try, with a different doctor, and different drug. I had surgery on my knee, and was injected with a standard amnesia-inducing drug that is given to prevent patients from remembering the pain of surgery if they happen to wake up prematurely, and sue for "emotional damage". I remembered nothing of the conversations I had for the 24 hours after the surgery, and my memory was sketchy for several days after... I was worried about permanent damage, and on my subsequent 2 surgeries (shoulder and shoulder again - knee from soccer, shoulder from tennis, second time from climbing) I requested that they skip the amnesia drug, and I had no problems - I remember being carted into the op room, and remember waking up post-op. Side-effects can be devastating but are specific to individual drugs, not their entire class.

You said:

Depression isn't "acquired" like AIDS is. It generates spontaneously out of the circumstances of a person's life. But Dogscoff has said it better than I can, so I'll leave it at that.



However, that's not strictly true; sometimes yes, sometimes no, and I don't know if "yes" or "no" is more common. Depression can hit a person out of the blue, like a ton of bricks, when they hit a certain age... and stay for the rest of their life. It can be triggered by a fairly minor event from which a normal person would bounce back in weeks or months... and just never go away (this is the kind that has a decent chance of being resolved by therapy). So medication is not a short-term solution for depression, any more than statins are the "quick fix" for someone whose mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother all died of heart disease at age 45. For a person without "true" depression - meaning someone who is sad, for some limited amount of time, for some specific reason - antidepressants should not be prescribed. Drugs should not be used to change emotions, IMO. But depression is not an emotion, just as limping due to a broken leg is not a form of transportation; it's a defective instance of walking. If a person is constantly unhappy, never really experiences pleasure despite intellectually knowing that action X used to be enjoyable, stays in this state with no precipitating event and no particular change over time, and has a family history of depression... that's a genetic disorder. Excercise typically improves circulation, and doctors often recommend it for people with a family history of heart failure. But if statin drugs allow a person with severe hereditary artereal plaque to be the first in their family to live to be 70 years old, why not take them? Heart attacks don't spontaneously arise in people who eat lard sandwiches every day; nor does changing your entire life to avoid "bad fat" make you immune. People in my family don't get heart attacks, but it's not because we are good people who avoid bacon and butter; we just don't have specific genetic defects regarding our cholesterol metabolism and blood vessel inner wall lining. But if I did have such a problem, I'd probably consult a dietician... and I'd sure as hell start taking statins. Which are not a short-term fix, any more than drugs are a short-term fix for chronic depression.

I don't know your specific circumstances. But again, side effects are drug-specific, and antidepressants comprise many chemicals over 3 primary distinct classes (tricyclic, SSRI, SNRI), and several others that are totally independant of these classes. Some people only respond to one class. Even within a class, drugs have different effects and side effects on different people. Tylenol causes liver failure, aspirin causes ulcers and internal bleeding (and I take it anyway), and so forth... but that doesn't mean an arthritic person shouldn't take Aleve every day for 20 years! It's a chemically distinct drug that's simply on the same shelf at the drugstore, and even though it is primarily used in the short term by people with acute injury (e.g. me, when I got a stress fracture in my foot during track), it is still highly useful in the long term. Yes, Aleve has some major side effect in .00001% of people (I forget what it is - also liver damage?), and (were I a doctor) I could counsel arthritic grandparents to stop walking around, which solves the root of their problem. I could (at huge costs in pain, money, and time) give them titanium knees, which carry a much higher risk of complications (like death) than Aleve, and maybe have a 50% chance of leaving them better-off. But it makes so much more sense to give them a painkiller, and let them go about their lives like normal people. Why should mental diseases be any different?


P.S. Hope I don't sound confrontational, except to Tom Cruise if he's reading this (that jackass) - I'm just voicing my opinions, not trying to criticize.

[Raging Deadstar]

One thing I must say is I'm rather glad I Live in the UK. Up until very recently it was a case of psychiatrists and doctors relying far too much on anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. Thankfully, last I was in the loop, it mostly was coming to an end.

It's mostly down to a lot of concern over SSRI's and SNRI's. Most have heard the concerns about Prozac but less in the light are Cipramil/Citalopram and Effexor/Venlafaxine. I've had experience with both of these, mostly negative so i'll admit i'm somewhat biased, so let me dig out some growing concerns about them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venlafaxine#Severe_discontinuation_syndrome
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3122360.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3582368.stm

A quick search on google will reveal some news-reports on the drugs. I could post more (I have a bookmark folder full) but I'd rather not deluge you all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

As you can probably tell I'm an advocate of counseling and other non-medication forms of treating depression and mental illness, it helped me no end more than any drug. Anti-depressants/psychotics do have their place, a step on the ladder to recovery, it's just that they should be more thoroughly tested. My love for the pharmaceutical companies is up there with my love for Bill Gates when running Windows ME.

Hopefully the medication prescribing gold rush has passed over here.

[Saber Cherry]

Right, it's important to note that side effects are not always things that show up immediately; some may never show up until withdrawal, so do the research before trying new drugs. Drugs that affect neurotransmitters are much more likely to cause important withdrawal problems than any other drugs, though certainly other drugs (that regulate heart rate, blood pressure, etc) can cause withdrawal problems as well. Doctors are notoriously unwilling to mention all the side effects without being asked (and sometimes despite being asked), for any kind of drug, so it's kind of up to the patient...

[Renegade 13]

Raging Deadstar said:
Most have heard the concerns about Prozac but less in the light are Cipramil/Citalopram and Effexor/Venlafaxine. I've had experience with both of these, mostly negative so i'll admit i'm somewhat biased, so let me dig out some growing concerns about them.


Wish I'd known about this a while ago. One of your links says patients on Venlafaxine should not be under 18 years of age. I was prescribed it when 16. Isn't that a great indication of competency within the medical profession?

Saber Cherry said:
R13: You're Canadian. If you experience seasonal depression (worse in the winter compared to summer) I suggest looking into light therapy. If not, and if you've had depression constantly (or chronically) for the last couple years, without recurring crises (parents' divorce, followed by being dumped, followed by your dog dying, etc - healthy young people don't stay depressed for years after a single incident) - and especially considering your family history of suicide - I suggest you give antidepressants a second try, with a different doctor, and different drug.


Fortunately, I can control it on my own -- for now. When the day comes when I can't, I will revisit the realm of antidepressants. You're right also; it can come out of the blue, for no apparent reason. My previous comment was flawed that it arises spontaneously out of a person's circumstances. That of course can happen, but isn't always the case.

Though the brain is less a mystery than it used to be, it is still somewhat a mystery. For example, no one really knows for sure by what mechanism consciousness is generated. As long as there are aspects of the brain that are unknown, it will be difficult to know exactly what causes certain illnesses, or the effects that introducing drugs that mess with brain chemistry will have.

[Raging Deadstar]

Renegade 13 said:
Wish I'd known about this a while ago. One of your links says patients on Venlafaxine should not be under 18 years of age. I was prescribed it when 16. Isn't that a great indication of competency within the medical profession?



They can prescribe it for under 18's, but it is only supposed to be in special circumstances. I'm not sure what the Canadian regulations are. But truth be told it's rated as one of the most effective so I imagine Doctors used it more than they should have. I was prescribed it at about 14. There's some horror tales about it though, A girl died from it over here a year back, one 75mg tablet caused her to have a heart attack I believe.


Saber Cherry said:
Doctors are notoriously unwilling to mention all the side effects without being asked (and sometimes despite being asked), for any kind of drug, so it's kind of up to the patient...



... This isn't a personal attack or anything Saber Cherry but I have no idea how to respond to that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Wow... what an earful, or screenful... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But isn't it interesting how often some 'random' person on this BB turns out to know something useful about a RL issue that comes up.

I have not been a 'consumer' of psychoactive drugs for many years, having only been on Ritalin for a bit as a young kid, but from what I have gathered in my own reading this seems pretty close to the truth of the situation with 'psychiatry' today. Too many people just want a 'pill' to 'fix' their problems, and too many psychiatrists are willing to go along, or even push the 'pill' themselves. Worse, sometimes schools are 'requiring' kids to get drugged! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=259142006

http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDaily/view.php?StoryID=20060310-020234-1544r

http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_evelyn_p_060311_fda_hearings_on_adhd.htm

In other news, video games are now being recognized as therapeutic. So any of you SE fans who are diagnosed as ADHD now have an excuse to stay home &amp; play SE in your pajamas for a few days now &amp; then... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060317/tc_nm/column_pluggedin_dc

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I found the last two links to be the more credible.

[Atrocities]

Tom Cruise has no right to say anything that was not scripted, and he has demonstrated this.



R O T F L M A O

[AMF]

I'm sure you've all heard the very exciting story of Xenu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology_doctrine

I especially like the picture of the DC-10 spaceplane.

More comprehensive article is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saber Cherry]

I had no idea McDonnell Douglas was in cahoots with scientologists - for the last 75 million years, if your link is to be believed. But anyone can edit the Wikipedia... how do we know Airbus didn't write that, just to make their competitors look bad? I bet it's only been like 75 thousand years, or something like that.

I was hoping for something about pyramid schemes, but I guess you have to look here for that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Slatkin

[Atrocities]

You questions about the site are valid. The internet is full of this kind of questionable source material. Some web sites love to smear those to whom they disagree or dislike. It is quite possible that Airbus could have wrote it to foster anti competitor sentament.

[Atrocities]

Back onto topic a bit, if any of you have ever been prescribed Risperdal or Seroquel, or any of their generic brands, you might want to look up and or research the side effects of these drugs. They can cause the onset of diabetes, pancreatitis, severe mental disorders, and so on.

They are nasty drugs.

[Baron Munchausen]

http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Thought_Disorders/schizo/medications/risperdal.asp

http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Thought_Disorders/schizo/medications/seroquel.asp

http://www.coreynahman.com/atypical-antipsychotic-lawsuits.html
---
Zyprexa Lawsuit, Risperdal Lawsuit; Seroquel Lawsuit;
Explanation of the issues (and sequence of events) surrounding the lawsuits that claim that the use of Seroquel, Zyprexa and Risperdal caused health problems such as pancreatitis and diabetes and stroke.
---

Yikes...

So, have you signed up for your share of any class-action settlements?

[Atrocities]

http://www.coreynahman.com/atypical-antipsychotic-lawsuits.html