OT POLL: Do Nice Guys Finish Last?? [Archive]

David E. Gervais

July 12th, 2004, 12:08 PM

Q1: What women want.. Men that are good on the outside and bad on the inside. So if you're nice on both sides you loose.

Q2: Nice at work.. The nice guys at work will be mashed like ripe potatos, taken advantage of and never climb the corporate ladder. You need greed to succeed in business and without it (Being Nice) you're destined to fail. (or stay at your current level forever)

Q3: Everywhere else.. There was a time when being 'nice' was normal, now it's such a rare phenomenon that it's newsworthy. Society is not 'nice' and 'nice' is slowly being removed from life as we know it. If everyone was 'nice' you could leave your car unlocked and still find it where you left it. (providing it didn't get towed')

With that said, I'm 'nice' and proud of it. What a strange poll.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Slynky

July 12th, 2004, 03:28 PM

I'm with Gryphin on this one.

When I was growing up, I saw lots of girls I found attractive and interesting who seemed only to have eyes for guys that treated them like dirt (or substitute another 4-letter word). I never understood it especially when they could have been with ME http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

My wife was married 3 times before me. Two were "bad boys" and the 3rd a bible-thumper (she just knew someone she met at church would be the right guy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ). No marriage Lasted more than 4 years and, averaging, they Lasted about 2 and a half. We've been together for 8 years. Though 15 years younger, she is now mature enough to realize being treated nicely leads to much more happiness than what she settled for in the past. Oh, don't get me wrong, we still dabble in some "bad" excitement http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif but I don't treat her like dirt.

Slynky

July 12th, 2004, 03:36 PM

Another comment:

I'm not rich (though, I suspect, some people struggling to make a living might disagree after seeing our house and lifestyle). I'd say I'm well off. So, as to the question about nice guys finishing Last in the workplace (where the money is made), I'll say there are those who are much more ambitious than I am and who are willing to step on people to climb that "ladder". But I like to sleep well at night. And more money in exchange for that sleep just isn't worth it to me.

AMF

July 12th, 2004, 03:48 PM

Well, I think it is safe to say that nice guys generally finish Last in SEIV and politics in general. I am almost exclusively a cooperative/non-zero-sum type of player, building alliances, gifting tech freely, helping others out in SEIV...and I don't think I've won a PBW game yet...my fault, of course. I also suck at ship design and micro-managing, which doesn't help.

Traskelion

July 12th, 2004, 04:20 PM

In response to David E. Gervais's comment:
I'd like to say that I DO leave my cars unlocked, and no one takes them, so HAH to you! Then again, most of them don't work anyway, but the big reason is I live in a little town where no one locks anything (except school lockers).

Anyway, to the point. As a "nice guy" I can safely say that in SEIV, it will get you beaten around pretty badly by someone more cruel

Slynky

July 12th, 2004, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by alarikf:
Well, I think it is safe to say that nice guys generally finish Last in SEIV and politics in general. I am almost exclusively a cooperative/non-zero-sum type of player, building alliances, gifting tech freely, helping others out in SEIV...and I don't think I've won a PBW game yet...my fault, of course. I also suck at ship design and micro-managing, which doesn't help. I hear ya, "Deccan" (smile). 1 x 1 games are OK because everyone (both people) have agreed at the beginning to be enemies. But in a multi-game, I find it hard to choose an enemy when it needs to be done for expansion's sake. I usually look to who has treated me the worst. In your case, as you know, we settled out pretty well. So, I think we are similar in this regard http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Slynky

July 12th, 2004, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Traskelion:
Anyway, to the point. As a "nice guy" I can safely say that in SEIV, it will get you beaten around pretty badly by someone more cruel There is some truth in this. While I understand that "backstabbing" is part of the game, I prefer to be known as a person who would never do that. So, when people are looking to me to consider me for an alliance (or a treaty of some sort), I know they are thinking 2 things: (1) I can absolutely trust him and (2) He'll be so trusting that I can screw him over later. It's a double-edged sword I live with. I hope that people will give more consideration to trying to win the game with point #1 in mind than in point #2. But for those who give more weight to point #2...well, that's fine. I would rather finish 1 game out of 5 in first place by being the "honest/nice" guy than winning 4 out of 5 by backstabbing. As I said below...I like to sleep at night and my gaming conscience won't let me otherwise.

tesco samoa

July 12th, 2004, 05:14 PM

yea but they are high school girls or club girls...

You do not marry a bad guy unless you like being married to an ***.

Long term relationships need a good level of the niceness...

Ps. what do you define nice as

As for work... Everyone at my work is nice... Mind you we do not want to go up the corperate ladder into management... Now there are some nice people who care about their work and help out and take responsiblity for when stuff goes wrong... I return the favour ... To me that is nice at work.

And in life... Hell yea...

p.s. in seiv i try to play to the race i am playing.... So some are nice some are not...

And I have won 1 game without being in a single fight with any race....

AMF

July 12th, 2004, 05:18 PM

Yeah, that's my reasoning too, almost exactly. Now, that's not to say that it doesn't sometimes lead to uncomfortable situations. I *HATE* to attack anybody preemptively, but I also can't envision myself ever not supporting an ally. So, when my allies insist that we go to war against a power whom I have no specific beef with, it puts me in a real bind. In a recent case, I was faced with three allies who made a very strong case for going to war against a Talisman weilding power that eventually probably was going to be a big threat...so, I tried very hard to get a viable casus belli to justify my war on grounds other than "self-interest" - of course, self-preservation is a good enough reason, but to strike someone pre-emptively for that reason is a problematic bit of logic. Perhaps I took too many "ethics in international relations" courses at school...in any case, I would much rather do the "right thing" rather than the "selfish" thing...and it has indeed meant that I generally lose out to other with a more cutthroat approach...Oh well. Better to be known as someone who will go down fighting for an ally, even to the end, than someone who might betray an ally for advantage...

Originally posted by Slynky:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Traskelion:
Anyway, to the point. As a "nice guy" I can safely say that in SEIV, it will get you beaten around pretty badly by someone more cruel There is some truth in this. While I understand that "backstabbing" is part of the game, I prefer to be known as a person who would never do that. So, when people are looking to me to consider me for an alliance (or a treaty of some sort), I know they are thinking 2 things: (1) I can absolutely trust him and (2) He'll be so trusting that I can screw him over later. It's a double-edged sword I live with. I hope that people will give more consideration to trying to win the game with point #1 in mind than in point #2. But for those who give more weight to point #2...well, that's fine. I would rather finish 1 game out of 5 in first place by being the "honest/nice" guy than winning 4 out of 5 by backstabbing. As I said below...I like to sleep at night and my gaming conscience won't let me otherwise. <hr /></blockquote>

Slynky

July 12th, 2004, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Now there are some nice people who care about their work and help out and take responsiblity for when stuff goes wrong...
LOL, no one is perfect. I make mistakes at work (sometimes). The boss knows that. But, instead of taking the usual "try to make up an excuse" road, when I screw up, I say so. I've told the boss more than once when he asked how something happened that, "I forgot about it" or "It's my fault". Been working for him for over 10 years. I still remember the first time he heard me say that (LOL)...the look on his face as he expected a bunch of bull**** excuses. Now, I think, he can depend on me when I give a real excuse...and know it isn't just crap. 'Cause he knows I'll level with him if it was my fault. Though it may not be the greatest way to conduct one's career, I think he appreciates knowing he can depend on the truth.

Aiken

July 12th, 2004, 05:25 PM

According to my pessimistic observations: nice guys die first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif And where are too many long living and prospering bastards around. Cruel statistics of RL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Slynky

July 12th, 2004, 05:28 PM

alarikf said, "Oh well. Better to be known as someone who will go down fighting for an ally, even to the end, than someone who might betray an ally for advantage..."

Well said http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Renegade 13

July 12th, 2004, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Paul1980au:
Nice guy as in rollover and beg
Or nice guy as in a bit of a bastard if you dont get yorue way but nice to women
Or nice guy im gay and im nice to women cause i wanna shop and gossip with em ?

I know nice guys lose in SE4 unless they make peace the winning option.

In SE4 always have at least 1 war going. By "nice" I mean someone who isn't a lying, cheating, a**hole bastard. Or maybe even someone who just treats other people well, but isn't a total wimp. I sure as hell don't mean your "nice guy who's gay" option http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Probably closer to your second choice.

narf poit chez BOOM

July 12th, 2004, 06:23 PM

* Is listening to Weird Al's Version of 'Dog Eat Dog'. The guy in that song is going to have a heart attack. Or go mental.

Renegade 13

July 12th, 2004, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Gryphin:
I realize your post was partly tongue in cheek cynicism and we are talking �in general�. Haha you got me Gryphin. Total cynicism. Being the nice guy really doesn't work for me at all. Then again, I'm only 17 years old http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . So my experience is kind of limited. But I can't help being the "nice guy". Its who I am, and I won't change who I am.

Renegade 13

July 12th, 2004, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Gryphin:
I personly feel women are excited by "bad boys", but truly want "good boys" for a long term relationship. You might see younger women go for the exciting types but most of them have a realist expectations and no intention of statying with them. I would agree with you here once again, and this gives me hope. Just kinda sucks sometimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Renegade 13

July 12th, 2004, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Slynky:
I'm with Gryphin on this one.

When I was growing up, I saw lots of girls I found attractive and interesting who seemed only to have eyes for guys that treated them like dirt (or substitute another 4-letter word). I never understood it especially when they could have been with ME http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Exactly. This is why I'm so cynical about being the "nice guy". When it comes to love, it gets you nowhere. It seems we have plenty of nice guys here, but no women to tell us what they think!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Raging Deadstar

July 12th, 2004, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gryphin:
I realize your post was partly tongue in cheek cynicism and we are talking �in general�. Haha you got me Gryphin. Total cynicism. Being the nice guy really doesn't work for me at all. Then again, I'm only 17 years old http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . So my experience is kind of limited. But I can't help being the "nice guy". Its who I am, and I won't change who I am. <hr /></blockquote>Don't worry about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'm 17 and i seem way too occupied with helping people out than i should be. In most peoples opinion I'd admit I probably full under "Doormat Nice" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif But as everyone's said eventually you get rewarded.

Of course if you don't you can start being rather evil and scheming in your spare time and No-one will suspect you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ragnarok

July 12th, 2004, 07:06 PM

I'm a nice guy and I have never had any problems succeeding in life, so far. Granted being 19 and young compared to alot of the members here does not say much for me but my boss knows he can trust me and rely on me to accomplish a task without taking a dirty route to get it done.

In SEIV I will play both nice and mean guy depending on the game, can never become too bland and predictable so you have to spice it up sometimes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Women...ugh...they are so confusing sometimes... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

dmm

July 12th, 2004, 07:57 PM

[edit: not directed at anyone in particular!]
If you're a nice guy, why do you want to date a woman who is attracted to jerks? Maybe just because she's HOT? Maybe you're not so nice after all, huh? Just not successful at playing the jerk role, so you try playing the nice role?
My advice to you genuinely nice young guys is:
1) Don't bother dating in high school. It's a waste of your time and money. You're too immature for a relationship worth having (and even if you are not, the girls are).
2) Bide your time. Nice guys usually get even more than they deserve. Jerks eventually get their come-uppance (and we often get to watch).
3) The grass is NOT greener over the fence. Learn to be content. Unattached guys should take the opportunity to do stuff that attached guys can't do easily, like move around, work your head off, take risks, switch careers, etc.

[ July 12, 2004, 18:59: Message edited by: dmm ]

Atrocities

July 12th, 2004, 08:00 PM

Women love to be treated like dirt by guys who have no value system. I see it every day and have seen my entire life.

In a recent poll women said that they are drawn to a man for his humor...... yaaa riiiiiiiighhht.

In every situation that I can even begin to point to, the women fell for the nut job they are with because he had a bad boy image.

I can sight example after example on this. Women love to be treated poorly by beef cake loosers.

If given a choice between one of us, and a beef cake looser, the beef cake will always win even though we all know how well we would treat her.

Women are drawn to brawn more than brain... They are animals after all, and can sense our kindness thus our weakness.

No kidding, I go video tape a wedding and now I am involved with a women that wants far more than I am able to give, given my present RL situation, and this scares me because this does not follow the norm. HOWEVER, now that I have gone to many parties and other with her, other women, the kind that would have nothing to do with me otherwise, are begining to show me a lot of interest. WTF is up with that?

I simply do not understand women. Or is it that I do understand women, I just don't comprehend there many facitted and unique ways of doing things?

Needless to say I am running scared at the moment not knowing what in the hell to do. On one hand I like having someone like her to talk to, on the other, I am alarmed at why she is so interested in me knowning my RL situation. *Perhaps she is over desprate and I am the first thing to enter her possible husband radar in years. That alone should be making me run and duck for cover yet I still call her....... I am so confused... Women have a tendacy to do that to us.

Long story short, I played a nice guy to get the job done, and she must have thought I was honestly a nice guy or something. Given her taste in men, I would chalk her up to the desprate, "must take any man I can get" kind. That means this whole thin will end poorly for me.

Nice guys do finish Last and so it has been written. The 11th command from God himself, you know the five laws on the third tablet that was accidently dropped. 11. Man shall know that nice guys shall always finish Last in everything. 12. What can go wrong, Shall go wrong. 13. Thow shall not trust no man or no women. 14. Thow shall always get promises and agreements in writting. 15. Thot shall always pack heat.

Raging Deadstar

July 12th, 2004, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by dmm:
[edit: not directed at anyone in particular!]
If you're a nice guy, why do you want to date a woman who is attracted to jerks? Maybe just because she's HOT? Maybe you're not so nice after all, huh? Just not successful at playing the jerk role, so you try playing the nice role?
My advice to you genuinely nice young guys is:
1) Don't bother dating in high school. It's a waste of your time and money. You're too immature for a relationship worth having (and even if you are not, the girls are).
2) Bide your time. Nice guys usually get even more than they deserve. Jerks eventually get their come-uppance (and we often get to watch).
3) The grass is NOT greener over the fence. Learn to be content. Unattached guys should take the opportunity to do stuff that attached guys can't do easily, like move around, work your head off, take risks, switch careers, etc. Hear Hear!!! Much Agreeing on my part! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

AMF

July 12th, 2004, 08:42 PM

Ok, guys, come on, all this talk about how "girls always like the bad guys" ...let's think about all this as an analogy...

How many times have you wanted to "go out" or "sleep with" a REALLY hot woman? All the time right? Well, given my "vast" years of experience, the REALLY hot ones are also usually the one's who are NOT GOOD for you. They've got some manner of wacko-ness that is likely derived from they're being REALLY hot. Our society does that to them.

That is the analog to the men's side of things. We, as men, generally want to go out with the HOT ones because we find them hot. But by the very virtue of they're being HOT they are also BAD for us.

So, for women, the situation is the same: they want to go out with the "HOT" ones - defined in this case as the James Dean/Marlon BRando/"Dangerous" ones (because that's what our society defines male "hotness" as) but they are also the exact same one's who are bad for them.

It also is related to the idea that if one is "hot" (of either gender) they feel that they can get away with a lot more in life - which is exactly the selfish sort of behaviour that makes them bad in relationships.

Eventually, one stops desiring the "hot" ones and goes for the "sane/better" ones.

(Frankly, I think I got very lucky with the best of both worlds: my wife never thought she was hot but she is - so, she doesn't act like she is although she is...did that make sense)

Atrocities

July 12th, 2004, 08:50 PM

So what your saying is, go for the fat ones? Problem, the Fat women also just want really tall skiny, well packaged bad boys as well.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Well secretly they do..... But even as fat guys we all know that having a fat girl friend is ok, so long as she is not her own postal code. That being said, and as I am discovering for the first time, fat women are not all that attractive physically, but they do seem to be awful over needy.

God help me for I am just not up to climbing this moutain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ July 12, 2004, 19:53: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

tesco samoa

July 12th, 2004, 08:56 PM

youth is wasted on the young... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Alarifk you get to an age when you realise that all women are nice looking to someone.

You just have to figure out what ones you are attracted to.

I have always been atracted to women who have the same love of music that I have. And not the same type of music. I like hearing new music.

Then I take it from there... It did not work out the first few times ( well quite a few ) and then it did http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

P.S. don't get too down on meeting people , being with a few , being rejected by a few, having ones heart broken by a few, breaking a few hearts.

Better to learn what you like and what people like in you as you grow up and learn from your mistakes , and accomplisments. You will find out along the way that you will have some good memories and some bad ones. But you will have gained experence. And lived and met a whole wack of people along the way. Which makes it worth it in my opinion.

So enjoy.

Raging Deadstar

July 12th, 2004, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
But you will have gained experence. And lived and met a whole wack of people along the way. Which makes it worth it in my opinion.

So enjoy. This reminds me. Good Judgement only comes from Expirience and Expirience only comes from Bad Judgement http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Atrocities

July 12th, 2004, 09:19 PM

Why do most women hate Sci-Fi? The lady I am so so dating now always resonds with alarm when she finds out I like Sci-Fi and that really PMO! (Pi**es Me Off)

All because she had some jerk arse boy friend who like Sci-Fi and treated her poorly does not give her the right to think I am a jerk arse because I like Sci-Fi. I mean what the hell! "If you love me you will never play that stupid game or talk to those werdo's on line again." - Ex-girlfriend comment.

Every single women I have ever dated from HS on up has hated Sci-Fi with a passion. Could it be that women who hate men who like Sci-Fi possess a sixth sense that tells them that we have the love sci-fi gene or something?

IS loving Sci-Fi a weakness? I think they feel it is. WTF is up with that. 8 of the top ten all time grossing movies are sci-fi based. So obviously there are a lot more closet sci-fi fans than we know. But honestly people look down on people who like sci-fi. Hell I am THE ONLY person in my entire family that likes sci-fi and the rest of them look at me as if I am weird. WTF is up with that? Hell my own mother read my story (Once Upon The Stars) and told me that I should keep my day job...... THIS REALLY F***ING SUCKS!

So ya, women do NOT like Sci-Fi for the most part. Although there are many who do, the norm is that 80% or so do not.

Gryphin

July 12th, 2004, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gryphin:
I realize your post was partly tongue in cheek cynicism and we are talking �in general�. Haha you got me Gryphin. Total cynicism. Being the nice guy really doesn't work for me at all. Then again, I'm only 17 years old http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . So my experience is kind of limited. But I can't help being the "nice guy". Its who I am, and I won't change who I am. <hr /></blockquote>Truth is it does work for you. Think about it. You go home at night and feel good about yourself. You know you did not personaly contribute to making the world a worse place to live.

And think a little more. I knew somehow you were a nice guy and look where that got you. Keep in mind that I have a strong strong aVersion to teenagers, for me to somehow feel / know about you....

Pagans have a strong belief in "The Rule of Three". Anything, (good or bad) that you do will come back to you three fold.

"What goes around , comes around"

Gryphin

July 12th, 2004, 10:03 PM

Pooh Star loves Sci Fi. It was one of the things listed in her profile at the Online dating service we met through.

X wife liked it also

Slynky

July 12th, 2004, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Gryphin:
Pooh Star loves Sci Fi. It was one of the things listed in her profile at the Online dating service we met through.

X wife liked it also Funny...

Wife and I watched the 3 "Terminators" 3 weekends ago in a small Saturday marathon. Then Last weekend, we did the 4 "Alien" movies on Sat and Sun. Watched "Equilibrium" (sp?) yesterday. We're both "Firefly" nuts (own that seires, too). I could go on but you get the picture.

PS: And I spend a lot of time with her watching Lifetime movies and we own about 10 Hallmark movies (not ashamed to admit).

Will

July 12th, 2004, 11:36 PM

Some more "youthful" input http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

With women, I said Last. Because I've seen it so often, that just seems to be the case. alarikf is right though, IMHO... the school I go to (USC) tends to have a lot of the more well-off, "beautiful people", and I've gotten to know several after two years there. Unfailingly, all of them have had some sort of wildly unattractive neurotic behaviour or are extremely depressed. They can hold up the image of being a "normal", "sane" person for at most two minutes in anything going beyond superficial conversation. I know most people here also have a slightly sarcastic outlook on what exactly normal and sane are, but I think we all agree that self-destructive, malicious, sadistic, etc. behaviours are not "normal" or "sane".

However, my view on it at this point is I don't have time for that bulls#!t. I'm too busy worrying about handling my (overloaded) academic schedule, working, figuring out what I'm doing with my life, expanding my computer skillsets... while still sleeping enough, exercising enough, and eating right. Throw a relationship into that, and in 99% of cases I've seen, a few to several of those priorities vanish completely.

In the workplace, nobody likes the jerk, and the jerk will eventually get fired. On the way up "The Ladder", it pays to be the nice guy, since by showing a willingness to work with others, others will be more willing to help you out, and will feel better at looking to you for guidence (which is a big factor in determining who is management material).

Everything else... it really depends. It's not the same as in the workplace, because it's more difficult to remove the jerks. They have to commit a crime, be convicted, and put in jail for them to be "removed". We won't discuss the more vigilante way to "remove" them, but you can get some ideas from AT's "I just caught some punk" thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

July 13th, 2004, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Gryphin:

Pagans have a strong belief in "The Rule of Three". Anything, (good or bad) that you do will come back to you three fold.

"What goes around , comes around" Pagans? Don't you mean Wiccans? Pagan applies to all non-christian religeons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Originally posted by Atrocities:
Why do most women hate Sci-Fi? The lady I am so so dating now always resonds with alarm when she finds out I like Sci-Fi and that really PMO! (Pi**es Me Off)
Go to a lot of sci-fi movies, marry a women that comes in costume.

[ July 12, 2004, 23:06: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Gryphin

July 13th, 2004, 01:23 AM

I realize your post was partly tongue in cheek cynicism and we are talking �in general�.

Posted by David E. Gervais:
Q2: Nice at work.. The nice guys at work will be mashed like ripe potatos, taken advantage of and never climb the corporate ladder. You need greed to succeed in business and without it (Being Nice) you're destined to fail. (or stay at your current level forever) This is more a matter of definition . If you don�t want to climb the corporate ladder then you can easily be the nicest guy around and be very successful, (like I am). The important part to my success is getting into a line of work you love and keep your lifestyle fairly simple. That will generate the highest level of �Finishing First� at the end of the day.

[ July 12, 2004, 12:25: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

General Woundwort

July 13th, 2004, 01:38 AM

Interesting that the level of cynicism is (so far, with 9 votes) much deeper re: the opposite sex, than for work and life in general. I shall have to run these results by some trusted sources in the "enemy" camp and see what they think... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 12, 2004, 12:39: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Gryphin

July 13th, 2004, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
Interesting that the level of cynicism is (so far, with 9 votes) much deeper re: the opposite sex, than for work and life in general. I shall have to run these results by some trusted sources in the "enemy" camp and see what they think... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I personly feel women are excited by "bad boys", but truly want "good boys" for a long term relationship. You might see younger women go for the exciting types but most of them have a realist expectations and no intention of statying with them.

If you watch "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" Spike turns her on big time but she loves Angel. Yes this is a TV example but I have seen it in real life. Women "talk" about the bad boys like they wish they could "have" them but when pushed they admit they want a "nice guy" they can trust.

Kamog

July 13th, 2004, 02:10 AM

Why don't women like action movies? They don't seem to enjoy "combat" type movies that have stuff like kung fu fight scenes, sword battles and so on.

Gryphin

July 13th, 2004, 02:49 AM

Originaly posted by narf:
Pagans? Don't you mean Wiccans? Pagan applies to all non-christian religeons It is possible that at one time it had another more general meaning.

If you prefer, Neo Pagan are basicaly very similar to Wiccan except (in far to simple terms), less structured.

They follow the wheel of the year, the seasons and the cycle of life.

Pooh Star is a Wiccan High Priestess

Gryphin

July 13th, 2004, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
Why don't women like action movies? They don't seem to enjoy "combat" type movies that have stuff like kung fu fight scenes, sword battles and so on. Because women are nurturers. Violence is unpleasant to them. That is a broad genearlisation. There are lots of exceptions. Pooh Star likes the Conan and Mel Gibson movies. Some women choose movies based on the actors. The ones that push thier butttons. Pooh Star liked Bab 5 for the show but also she had the hots for one of the actresses. She will watch anything with Keano Reeves, (Matrix) but not Matt Daemon.

Does that help?

narf poit chez BOOM

July 13th, 2004, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Gryphin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Originaly posted by narf:
Pagans? Don't you mean Wiccans? Pagan applies to all non-christian religeons It is possible that at one time it had another more general meaning.

If you prefer, Neo Pagan are basicaly very similar to Wiccan except (in far to simple terms), less structured.

They follow the wheel of the year, the seasons and the cycle of life.

Pooh Star is a Wiccan High Priestess <hr /></blockquote>As far as I can tell, Neo-Pagan covers any type of behavor which may possibly have pre-dated Catholicism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

tesco samoa

July 13th, 2004, 03:30 AM

will you should watch that movie pumpkin... classic.... P.S. I think the woman would love your hair... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

AT.... Reading you post.... Hell that scares me.... And hiding behind all that post is a sci-fi lover.... OUCH...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Gryphin

July 13th, 2004, 03:56 AM

Origianly posted by narf
As far as I can tell, Neo-Pagan covers any type of behavor which may possibly have pre-dated Catholicism.
I'm not sure what your sourses are. The Neo Pagans I have met would nod, understand why you think that, and try to explain that *in general* Paganism is an earth based spiritualty and that Pagans follow the The wheel of the year, the cycle of life and the seasons and that each group has thier own interpretations and beliefs.
They would dissagree with such a sweeping generalazation.
But I am sure that different areas have different deffintions of Pagan. I love variety

AMF

July 13th, 2004, 04:16 AM

Uh...I was just being sarcastic....I've been around the block more than my share of times...not that young anymore...got at least 35 years under my belt...not that I'm counting...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
youth is wasted on the young... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Alarifk you get to an age when you realise that all women are nice looking to someone.

Renegade 13

July 13th, 2004, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
Of course if you don't you can start being rather evil and scheming in your spare time and No-one will suspect you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Hmm...thanks for the idea...Muahahahaha!

Renegade 13

July 13th, 2004, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by dmm:
[edit: not directed at anyone in particular!]
If you're a nice guy, why do you want to date a woman who is attracted to jerks? Maybe just because she's HOT? Maybe you're not so nice after all, huh? Just not successful at playing the jerk role, so you try playing the nice role?
My advice to you genuinely nice young guys is:
1) Don't bother dating in high school. It's a waste of your time and money. You're too immature for a relationship worth having (and even if you are not, the girls are).
2) Bide your time. Nice guys usually get even more than they deserve. Jerks eventually get their come-uppance (and we often get to watch).
3) The grass is NOT greener over the fence. Learn to be content. Unattached guys should take the opportunity to do stuff that attached guys can't do easily, like move around, work your head off, take risks, switch careers, etc. I realize this was a general post, but I'll reply as though it were directed at me, just for the fun of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I don't want to date a woman who's attracted to jerks. There are however, lots of girls/women who ARE hot, but AREN'T attracted to jerks. The best of both worlds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I agree that dating in school is generally useless, and I mostly agree with the rest of what you say.

Renegade 13

July 13th, 2004, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by Gryphin:
Truth is it does work for you. Think about it. You go home at night and feel good about yourself. You know you did not personaly contribute to making the world a worse place to live.

And think a little more. I knew somehow you were a nice guy and look where that got you. Keep in mind that I have a strong strong aVersion to teenagers, for me to somehow feel / know about you....

Pagans have a strong belief in "The Rule of Three". Anything, (good or bad) that you do will come back to you three fold.

"What goes around , comes around" I must agree with you once again. I do sleep well usually, and I don't feel guilty about what I've done that day (usually). Lol I usually have a strong aVersion to most teenagers as well...and I am one! Simply put, most are not the most wise people in the world. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And thank you once again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Renegade 13

July 13th, 2004, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by Will:
However, my view on it at this point is I don't have time for that bulls#!t. I'm too busy worrying about handling my (overloaded) academic schedule, working, figuring out what I'm doing with my life, expanding my computer skillsets... while still sleeping enough, exercising enough, and eating right. Throw a relationship into that, and in 99% of cases I've seen, a few to several of those priorities vanish completely. Very true Will, very true. In the very few relationships I've been in (all within the Last year BTW), I've seen my grades slip significantly. I don't think its a coincidence that the relationship coincided with the drop in grades http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Priorities do change, and not always for the better. However, I still ask myself; if that one girl/woman wanted to have a relationship with me, would I reject her?? The answer is an unconditional NO. Even though it may be bad academically, I would value a relationship more than I would my academic performance.

Will

July 13th, 2004, 07:24 AM

Tesco,

Unfortunately, my hair hasn't been of the blue, red, green, purple, or orange variety for almost two http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif years. I'm considering purple once the whole corporate internship thing ends (it's a software company, but there still are *some* limits to the corporate culture). Should be fun.

And if this {link} (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0265591/) is the Pumpkin you are referring to... I would probably like it, even if the reviews on imdb are lukewarm.

Renegade,

We all have different things that are important to us. It's good that you realize that relationships are a trade-off, and I think even better that you choose to pursue them anyway. And great that they apparently are chasing after you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I guess my view is skewed from the fact that I haven't had any 'significant' relationships. In high school I was far too socially inept (read: geek, nerd, dweeb, etc), end of high school and college I focused more on friendships than anything with 'benefits'. And I guess it doesn't help that in SoCal, I would be considered below average... but like I said, doesn't matter, I have (I think) more important things to focus on. My dad seems to agree on the waiting part too (he married my mom when he was 20, she 18). Freedom to move around and discover a bit, instead of being anchored to one place/person.

...

I was going to say something else, but I forgot.

Atrocities

July 13th, 2004, 07:24 AM

That BullS**t will eventually catch up to you whether you want it to or not.

The thing is, if nice guys know that they are going to finish Last, then they can play the game under a differnt set of rules. Finding the rules that work best for you will be the challenge.

Will

July 13th, 2004, 07:29 AM

Good point AT. And when it does catch up to me, I'm probably not gonna do much to resist (like Renegade, I'm not one to flat out reject).

But in the mean time, I don't spend time worrying about it. Hell, friends do it enough for me, since apparently it's not normal to be single http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif .

narf poit chez BOOM

July 13th, 2004, 08:19 AM

As far as I can tell, you just go with girl or guy (I mean, their are one or two girls reading this) #2. In every story, it's allways the second one the're really in love with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Paul1980au

July 13th, 2004, 10:11 AM

Wow this post quickly took off didnt it.

Slynky

July 13th, 2004, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Paul1980au:
Wow this post quickly took off didnt it. Well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , it had the magic four-letter word in it: girl.

Raging Deadstar

July 13th, 2004, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Gryphin:
[QUOTE] I'm not sure what your sourses are. The Neo Pagans I have met would nod, understand why you think that, and try to explain that *in general* Paganism is an earth based spiritualty and that Pagans follow the The wheel of the year, the cycle of life and the seasons and that each group has thier own interpretations and beliefs.
They would dissagree with such a sweeping generalazation.
But I am sure that different areas have different deffintions of Pagan. I love variety In the english dictionary the definition of the word Pagan is someone who doesn't worship christianity or at least a polytheistic Religion. I think thats where Narf was coming from.

Don't mind the english language...We Brits have been stuck on our own Island for far too Long http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It's why so many dislike the EU. It's not a "I don't agree politically wise" reason, it's "The Europeans are Invading Again!!!" Reason...It's in our blood after being invaded so many times before http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Gandalf Parker

July 13th, 2004, 05:29 PM

Sorry for jumping in late and probably off course....

Nice guys do finish Last. But the thing to notice is that they FINISH. Its the nice-guy strategy that gets you the Lasting relationship, home, family.

The high school "winners" are considered winners because they are playing the scoreboard for points. After highschool they either have to wise up and completely change their tactics, or die alone. When their goals shift from 1-nighters to relationships, then their targets probably will also.

Personally I have always preferred rubenesque women (same curves as everyone else likes but alittle farther apart). I guess its the empath in me. Id rather have one where I get points because I can truthfully tell her that her self-doubts mean nothing to me. Id rather one that needs help in the confidence department than one that needs NO help in the confidence department. Ive had so many bad experiences with the model-chicks that I actually turn them down if there is a heavier chick around. That probably sounds bad but its just truthfulness of my own faults.

[ July 13, 2004, 16:32: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Caduceus

July 13th, 2004, 11:00 PM

As a nice guy who took a while to achieve what he wanted to do, I can say it was worth the wait.

Being true to yourself if more important than just about anything else.

If you can't stand to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning for what you did or said yesterday, you're doing something wrong.

Wildcard

narf poit chez BOOM

July 14th, 2004, 12:54 AM

See, that's why vampires are all evil. They can't look at themselves in the mirror anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

tesco samoa

July 14th, 2004, 01:17 AM

Will that is it... an upside is that Christina Ricci is in it... and as always looking good.

Alarikf... The http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif hehehe

Renegade 13

July 16th, 2004, 05:55 AM

Nice guys finish Last, dead Last, i guarantee it. Be nice, and you will end up Last, experience has told me. Niceness screws you over in the end, beginning and middle.

mac5732

July 16th, 2004, 06:00 AM

Nice guys, eventually win out in the end, you just have to wait and give it time.. Remember, never try to be something or someone your not. That is the worst thing one can do and you will regret it in the long run. Always be yourself, and if someone doesn't like it, tough, sooner or later, someone will come along, usually when you least expect it, and like you for yourself.

Example. I met my wife, when I pulled her over one night with her girl friend. towed the car, pulled them down to the station, called friend father to come and get them.... she was nasty, snotty, obnoxcious, smart mouthed, etc. Month later saw her at local bar, began talking with her, and to make long story short, married her 3 yrs later....

so always look on the bright side, what was meant to be will be and nothing you can do will change it. Just be yourself, have faith in yourself, and rmember, its her loss, not yours. Its all a part of life's trials and you will experience more in your life. Don't let something like this get you down, look on the bright side, you woke up this morning, and any day that happens, is a good day no matter what else takes place... besides you have many friends here, and most if not all of us have at one time or the other gone thru the same thing, some easier others harder...

you take care

[ July 16, 2004, 05:03: Message edited by: mac5732 ]

Loser

July 16th, 2004, 06:19 AM

There is, unfortunately, a tendancy for weakness to be mistaken for nice . . . nice . . .ness, nicety? Whatever.

One must be strong, learn to be strong, before one can actually be nice.

I could be wrong about that, but that's what I've learned in my own life.

Atrocities

July 16th, 2004, 06:56 AM

renegade 13, Nice guys are meant to finish Last because we are the ones who are best capable of handling it. We take the pain, and we move onto the next lesson in life.

You can look at the menu, but you just can't eat
You can feel the cushion, but you can't have a seat
You can dip your foot in the pool,
but you can't have a swim
You can feel the punishment, but you can't commit the sin

*And you want her, and she wants you
We want everyone
And you want her and she wants you
No one, no one, no one ever is to blame

You can build a mansion, but you just can't live in it
You're the fastest runner but you're not allowed to win
Some break the rules, and let you cut the cost
The insecurity is the thing that won't get lost

You can see the summit but you can't reach it
It's the Last piece of the puzzle but you just can't make it fit
Doctor says you're cured but you still feel the pain
Aspirations in the clouds but your hopes go down the drain

No one ever is to blame
No one ever is to blame

[ July 16, 2004, 05:57: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Renegade 13

July 16th, 2004, 07:01 AM

Thank you all for the advice and words of encouragement. It means a lot to me. Its kind of ironic though...I have more friends here than I do anywhere else! I suppose all we can do is live life day to day, and take what gets thrown at us.

Slynky

July 16th, 2004, 02:09 PM

Without trying to sound like the "typical" adult "know it all", I might add in here that, with youth, there is a certain amount of impatience with life. Well, it seems to me from the people I know in the age group of 16-22. I'm not sure if the world is in a deeper state of gloom these days and some feel they need to have everything quicker before it all ends or what.

I'm not so old that I don't remember the pain of having feelings for someone and to have them ignored. I remember sitting on a riverbank in the hills of North Carolina with a rifle in my hand at age 19. So, I think I can empathize a bit.

And though it sounds really lame, your life will change, you will mature more (I still gain maturity even at my age, so don't take it as an insult http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), and you WILL see that nice guys do NOT finish Last. Just remember, those girls have to mature also http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Will

July 16th, 2004, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Slynky:
And though it sounds really lame, your life will change, you will mature more (I still gain maturity even at my age, so don't take it as an insult http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), and you WILL see that nice guys do NOT finish Last. Just remember, those girls have to mature also http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . So true... I think people gain maturity throughout their lives; it's just some gain far more slowly than others (e.g. that 40-year-old that never seemed to mature past 14). I think there's also a tendency for those in the 70+ years range to relapse into the maturity of someone in the 8-15 years range once in a while.

And also true that the girls have to mature... which can suck if your growth is a bit more fast paced.

Just hang in there. University is coming soon for you, right?

geoschmo

July 16th, 2004, 05:41 PM

Nice guys don't finish Last, because in life nobody really finishes. Life just keeps on going till you are dead. And then it doesn't matter where you place cause you are dead either way.

The only thing to do is keep on living. Be true to yourself, do things that make you happy at least some of the time, be as nice as you can to those around you, and try not to worry about the scoreboard.

If you are worried about the girl that got away, she's not the Last one you'll ever find. And trust me, often they are much more trouble then they are worth. Sometimes losing a girl is the best thing that could ever happen to you. Find one that loves you for who you are and you will be much happier.

[ July 16, 2004, 16:42: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Taera

July 17th, 2004, 10:49 AM

Interesting discussion. Lemme add my own thoughts.

Nice guys do finish Last, when it comes to a relationship. But what is Last? Later than all the school "winners"? Well, its Last by their list. Do you realy care?

I've known different people. I've known the "winners"/*******s, and nice guys (am one). I've also known the "too hot for my own good" girls and the nice girls.

Winners go for the hot and instinct. Nice guys think and wait. Me, am a good example, i believe. I watched peope date in gr.8 and gr.10. I decided that I should find someone too. It was a mental struggle, because initially i of course was attracted to the "hot" girls. Well, so bad, as i discovered a total lack of any personality worth a mention.

I dont know about all, but about me, and other "nice guys" i know, nice guys are picky. We dont choose the obvious, we go for the pearls. And, believe it or not, there are girls who think the same way as you do. Physical doesnt always declare the mindset of a girl.

Sure, you dont get to date that hot girl in your english class. But do you realy want a person with whom you wont be able to hold even a 15-minutes conversation on something besides her interests?

Now, an interesting observation from a maturing mind. I am currently in a relationship, and im reflecting on my past years. I was _NOT_ ready for this before. Then its a good thing it waited, no?

Nice guys finish Last. So said the "bad" guys, by their scale. Do you care? Nice guys work their way throughouthly and get the truly marvelous results.

Okay, its late, i should go sleep. If above doesnt make sense, I blame mrs. Time.