Intelligence Opps

[General Hawkwing]

Is there a formula that determines if your intel ops is a success or does it only depend on resources spent by you versus defensive resources spent by the enemy?

The AI does not develop int ops until later in the game and then fails to build enough facilities to use it effectively.

One unique occurrence I had was when I was doing crew insurrection versus the red lizardmen. I had chosen a specific ship and on the turn the int op was to be completed I blow it apart in combat. The int op came back as successful, but the spies had converted a crew from a different empire! With AI this didn't matter but can you imagine that happening against a human player. "Opps, sorry about that. I didn't mean to convert that construction yard space station which was about to complete your new mega attack ship."

[Jeb]

I'm pretty sure that right now, intel is automatically successful unless it's countered. This means that there's currently no defense against puppet political parties, since there's no counter-intel level 4. Maybe it's in the full game, though.

[General Hawkwing]

Is any one else using int. ops.? Does the AI appear to be lacking to you in this area?

[Taqwus]

Finished up a game (deliberately drawn out so it took something like 95 turns, heh. Large galaxy, 3 starting planets, high resources/race points, everything else default) where IIRC only one of the AI players seemed to be trying intel ops -- at least, my Counter Intel 3 only appeared to affect that one race, and I got no reports of successful intel ops on me.

The other AIs didn't appear to have counterintel going on, either, as I was freely using 'Crew Insurrection' (usually I'd get a colony ship or transport; colony ship would simply be used to colonize a distraction, transport used to ram its former comrades), and that op never, ever, failed.

The AIs, however, may simply have been prioritizing -- my race had been customized for ship war (-50% trade income/-50% ground combat is a bit of a giveaway...), and my speed-10 DDs/LCs/CAs with Quantum Reactors and nasty organic weapons were a greater threat than my intel ops...


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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Noble713]

I tend to only use intel if I've stolen the tech from a race that surrendered, as the computer tends to get intel technology rather quickly but doesn't seem to use it. I've generally found little use for intel beyond ship bombing, and devote all of my resource-poor planets to research instead. It's also possible that the AI is using the intel agaainst the other comps but not the player (for reasons unknown).

[General Hawkwing]

I select view all scores during the start up. I only do this to help watch for bugs, not to gain any advantage. I have noticed that the AI has NO intel points until past mid game. In fact, my current game is at turn 73 and one empire sends me warnings that it will catch my spies, but still does not generate any intel points. I don't think it has researched applied intel yet. I'll check it out next time I play.

[Cyrien]

Hrmm... in one or two games I have actually had the computer start to womp on my fleets and planets with intel... generally after the midpoint. This does seem to be the exception rather than the rule though.

Checked it and they had intel maxed as to my pidly little level 1 intel, they were putting the serious ouch on me... hard to wage a war when you lose several ships each turn as well as planetary facilities and several major planets are rioting. Hope to see more of this deceptive underhandedness in the full.

[Seawolf]

Just an FYI,

They work on this in later Versions

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Seawolf on the prowl

[General Hawkwing]

Should intel ops. be an automatic success? Should it be as easy to subvert a jubiliant homeworld as it is to subvert an angry fringe of the empire planet? An experienced flagship drew or a novice mining ship?
Still SE4 intel ops. is an improvement over current games available.

[Taqwus]

One bit that bothers me about the current intel system is that it's effectively infinite range/speed. That is, as soon as one of your people is within the same system as another -- it doesn't matter if it's a suicidal recon probe that hasn't the fuel to move another step, let alone return -- you can unleash the full force of your intelligence points upon them.

Towards the end of my psy/time game, I was generating 200+k intel points/turn, which meant that the turn I found the Last race (a neutral who'd been well out of the way, and utterly oblivious to the wars elsewhere), I could subvert two of his planets, or four of his ships -- 100% guaranteed as they had no counterintel. This, despite the fact that I really hadn't had the time to infiltrate them, or even to study the basics about their society, and that even if they'd been warlike and demolished my probe ship, and zealously guarded all warp points, my spies could still get through.

It would seem at least that the amount of contact between races should matter a bit, although I really do not know how that should be modeled. But having a delay (distance-based? That is, say, minimum distance in terms of edges on the known subgraph of the galaxy?), at least for the first op, makes sense. And some of the operations perhaps should be limited by how much IP you can put into them per turn, ala construction limits, so that you just don't start subverting planets instantly. A nightmare in a multi might be a Darlok-type race sending out non-returning probes w/ supply storage up the wazoo, who then starts to steal/subvert without fear of retal anytime soon (at least, by somebody who cares about getting his ships back)...

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Jubala]

What about a prerequisite covert operation called "establish spy network" or something that has to be succesfully completed before any other op could be performed? And when counter intel foils one of your ops there's a slight chance they unravel whole or parts of your spy network based on how long it's been in place, number of succesful ops (maybe), and level of network. You know, 4 disgruntled teenagers planting bombs at the mining facility that wouldn't hire them or a fullfledged network with cells that don't know of each other and very deep undercover spymaster or something. You get the picture. The difficulty of establishing such a network would depend on level of network being established, amount of contact between races (treaties, mutual systems, wars (smugglers?), level of trade etc), race attitude (Xenophobes and such), population happines levels and so on.

So establishing a spy network at your intersettled 25+ year partner will be a piece of cake but establishing one with the aggressive Xenophobes you just met and are hellbent on wiping you off the galaxy will be tough as nails.

I also think different kinds of intel ops should generate different kinds of responses. Collecting information shouldn't generate to severe a response, like shaking a finger and saying naughty boy and not raise AI anger too much if at all. I mean, everybody does it in RL. But inciting a revolt should make the targets very angry and the response should be on the level of Shaking The Big Stick under your nose and demanding reparations Or Else.

Makes sense?

[Psitticine]

I like those ideas! I think another consideration should be how physically different the alien race is from your own. If you are rock dwelling oxygen breathers, it should be harder to infiltrate methane breathing gas giant dwellers than it would be a race just like yours.

[Taqwus]

Yeah. Building networks, perhaps with level 1,2,3 etc (successive levels raising perhaps both the ops you can try, and how fast you can do them). Counter-intel could lower the level or remove it entirely.

I was surprised in that psy/time game, when I subverted two planets and there was *no* response. Then the other two went, and the hapless neutral was left with a few ships and zero planets -- and still no apparent hostility. Interesting, considering that the culprit should have been a bit obvious (as you can't, say, incite rebellion on a third-party's behalf. That might be too evil.)


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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Psitticine]

It's a stretch but maybe they're, in some cases at least, not supposed to realize the rebellian was incited from outside as opposed to springing up from purely internal forces.