And The AI is ???

[Richard Link]

What`s the take on the AI in this Game so far ?

It sure seems strange that no one is talking about that at all since it's the core of the game, and it is a Combat sim after all....and Yes, I know that 100 turns is just starting.

I find the AI in SE 3 to be excellent if a little "lets all gang up from the getgo and kill the Human player" type stuff. As an example, let the " AI Ministers " run everything for you and you will still lose to the other 2-4 races played by the AI.

Maybe some SE IV Beta Testers will weigh in here.

[Psitticine]

Well, I've not been talking about it because it keeps beating me in an embarassing fashion and I rather thought I'd keep that to myself. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

IOW, I've found it excellent. I'm not a beta-tester, BTW, just a 100-turner, but I've seen it doing an excellent job with things like following up one line of research to a useful degree instead of spreading the RPs around too thinly to make a difference.

It does seem to have a tendancy to launch attacks identical to ones which have already failed. Many times, I'll find an identical class ship making another try against, say, a space station which just ate the attacker's sister ship for lunch Last turn.

Of course, it will eventually pull out all the stops and send in a force large enough to crush that station into titanium dust, and I suppose all those puny attacks dotted about could be intended to keep me from knowing where the big one is landing . . .

But, nah, I think it just doesn't correct failed attack strategies quickly enough!

Other than that, I've been finding it a nicely difficult opponent.

[Master Belisarius]

Your you have a point here Richard.
I have only played the demonstration, and I am conscious that SE4 are still in development, and that MM will continue improving the game, but regrettably, the AI in the Se4 Demo 0.56 is MUCH worse than the AI in SE3.
As I said before I am conscious that SE4 are still in development and that SE3 is a completed game with one of the betters AI that I know... but, for this same reason, although in this and other forums I can see tons of good suggestions (most of them to make more complex the game), I would prefer that MM put its efforts to create an AI like they already did for SE3.

[This message has been edited by Master Belisarius (edited 20 September 2000).]

[General Hawkwing]

I agree with Master Belisarius, the AI is much weaker than SE3. in SE4, I'll lose a few minor battles in early game but by turn 40-60 will have pretty much sealed up the victory. In SE3 the game was still contested (and sometimes lost) at turns over 100.

[wingte]

Hmnnnn,, I never lost a game at the "normal" setting in SE III and so far I haven't found the "normal" setting in SE IV to be either easier or harder. I always run out of turns before there is a clear indication of wheather I am going to win or lose.
My biggest problem is that when I pick "generate random computer empires" even on the "low" setting for the number of other empires,, there is always a minimum of 4 and often as many as 8 enemies and half of them will be the type that attack on sight.
It is also very frustrating to have to always fight everytime another ship enters the same square I am in. This results in making enemies of those races that would otherwise be inclined to become alies.

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Wingte

[Master Belisarius]

No offense Wingte, but I must disagree with you: if you play a Se3 game with not warp point manipulation, and not star manipulation techs, you will have a challenging game.
Also, if you start with less starting techs points, all the AIs against you and large galaxy, I think that really you will have a hard work...
I have played the SE4 demo giving all the advantages to the AI, and with all the AI against me... and always was an easy job.

[This message has been edited by Master Belisarius (edited 21 September 2000).]

[wingte]

The medium setting should be balanced so that is the position where I will play.
The real test would be to creat an AI where you could give yourself every advantage and still have a challeging game because the AI actually learns.
My experience in SE III was that the AI would adapt to the tactics I was using in the medium/normal mode. When I developed the stellar manipulation tech and started cleaning systems by destroying the suns,, the AI started mining the sun. When I started putting mine sweepers on the sun destroyers,, it put a fleet at the sun. So far as I could tell the AI never used any of the stellar manipulation tech even when they clearly should have had it since I had long since maxed out the tech. I also found that using the warp manipulation would upset even my allies and using the sun destroyer against even a genocidal opponent would likly cause my allies to break their treaty with me.

But none of this happened in less than 50-60 turns since that was just about the minimum time I could research the warp point tech and still research the other stuff that would give me the resources to maintain the fleet with expensive components.

So ,, I still maintain that 100 turns is not enough to be able to really get a feel for what and how the medium setting on the dificulty is actually going to react. This is especially true since the Demo doesn't have the stellar manipulation tech in it that caused the SE III AI to really show what it could and would do.

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Wingte

[eagleton]

Sadly, it was not as hard to beat the AI of SE III even without stellar manipulation. My main strategy was to colonize as much as possible from the beginning, so I had more ressources, and to wait until they attacked me. Then I would attack their planets, minimizing ship-to-ship battles. I also developed much more intelligence then my opponents to destroy their economic basis. Most of the time, they could not resist that. Often, they had much better ships in the beginning, but I soon had more ressources, what counted in the end. The only opponents that really stood a chance were those who had half of the maintenance costs and so produced
much more ships than others.

[wingte]

Yes eagleton, your stratege is one that will almost always beat an AI opponent. The key is to determine what acts are "tolerated" by the AI even if they send you warnings and then staying just inside the envelope.

Looking at the script in SE VI it appears that there is a section in there that will make this signicantly more difficult to accomplish. There seems to be a "counter" that tracks how many times several seemingly unrelated minor events happen and when the count is reached, the AI treats that final minor event as if it were a major event. That final event may be the first time you did that particular action but the AI will react as if you had carried out an deliberately hostile act.

In a longer game, particularly since there seems to be no way to not fight when some other race, even an ally, enters a space you are in, it looks to me like this "anger counter" will almost guarentee that end of the game will be decided by force rather than diplomancy.

Befor any tweaking is done on the AI,, I want to have the opportunity to play some longer games. 100 turns with the demo technology limit isn't long enough and doesn't allow for suffeciently dramatic enough events to really get a feel for the AI.

Right now the only unacceptable single events seem to be:
Actively declaring war...
Being considered a "racial" enemy...
Attacking a planet...

Things in the "counter list" seem to include:
Blockading a warp point... (5-7 events)
Just entering a system claimed by another race... (10-20 events)
Any kind of servalance espinoge... (3-9 events depending on type)

2-3 total of each event seems to produce a declaration of war faster than larger numbers of any single event.

Colonizing a planet in a system claimed by another race,, even an ally race. and refusing to abandon it seems to result in war in 3-5 turns depending on how good your relations were to begin with.

Because just passing through someones territory trips the counter and you can't colonize a planet even in an allies system, I think that somewhere arround turn 150 you will always be at war with every other AI player you have contacted if you try to do the fast early grownth plan. Once the warp point tech is available it should become possible to creat bypass warps so the passing through counter stops. It also apears that in the early game you will have to tolarate other races creating colonies in your systems even though they won't tolerate you doing the same.

Hmnnnn Now,, I am wondering if there is something in the script that if you allow them to colonize in your systems,, they will allow you to colonize in theirs??? I have never tried this,,, HMNNNN...

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Wingte

[General Hawkwing]

Wingte,
I don't know about the script(not having read it) but I have done many of the things you say leads to war and have not had war declared by some empires. I've even stole planets intl. ops. (7-8) without war starting. Other empires have declared war after a single, accdental ship battle. Maybe something has to do with whether it is a "enemy" or "neutral" AI empire?

[wingte]

If you have the intel resources to steal a planet,, then you probably also have the other resources to simply intimadate the AI into being tolerant. This must be true since the diplomacy window includes the ability to demand that a race subjegate itself to you so the AI must have a way of calculating it's chance of surviving if it refuses.

One of the things I so far find about SE VI is that the default settings produce perhaps the most balanced game I have played. Oh the small fighter is too small. The shipyard limit and being required to put only fighter bays on the Carrier is annoying.

My main concern is the mandatory fight even when the other ship belongs to an ally. This makes it impossible to blockade a warp point without ending up at war with everyone. Right now the only way arround this is to use tactical combat and then run for thirty turns. Since I don't like what the AI does when I have a group of ships in a fleet,, this means I have a very tedious 30 turns or I have to set my stratege to "don't get hurt". This of course means that even when I know I have a lock on the battle,, I must fight it out manually and never use the strategic option or the resolve confict option.

I still think that the individual races should have racial advantages and disadvantages. I also think there should be advantages and disadvantages based upon type of government. There also need to be mutually exclusive technologies and races or goverments that are incapable of using some technologies.

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Wingte

[Tampa_Gamer]

I agree, the mandatory fight option seems a little bit dated. But I don't think this happens if you have any kind of treaty with the races, just those you have nothing with. But it would be nice for human player to have an option whether to engage or not. The computer player may still want to, but at least you gave them an out and you would not be the aggressor. Do the beta-testers have any comment?

[General Hawkwing]

I also have not had combat with an ally. When in tactical, it tells me that I can not fire on an ally. In 1 game, I was an ally with 2 empires at war with one another. They both would use my planet to refuel and I would have to sit and watch a AI vs AI tactical battle. It was informative about the AI combat plans but got tedious after the 4th time.

[wingte]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by General Hawkwing:
[B]I also have not had combat with an ally. When in tactical, it tells me that I can not fire on an ally.

I have had the same thing happen when I have entered a space occupied by an ally.. But when an ally enters a space I am in such as a warp point, then I have to select stategic/tactical and there doesn't seem to be any warning. That makes me think the ally attacked me. If I fight back I end up at war,, if I run away the aliance is saved but it was a very boring time consuming excercise.

Now,, what settings do other people use in the empire options?? I always turn of both the selections for clearing orders befor ships enter spaces/systems with other races/ships.. Could this be what is giving me trouble??

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Wingte

[dmm]

Some stupid things about the diplomatic AI:
1) If you blockade a planet and demand it as tribute, the AI always gives it to you, with all facilities intact and a population that's not especially unhappy about it.
2) If you blockade all of an empire's colonies and destroy all of its ships, it ALWAYS agrees to a demand for surrender, regardless of how you've behaved. Shouldn't it at least try to negotiate for protectorate status, or even subjugation? And shouldn't some races simply refuse to surrender to others, even if it means annihilation?
3) The AI never takes desperate cooperation measures like trading Colonization techs or surrendering to each other, even in the face of a ruthless conqueror who's taken over 1/2 of the galaxy (i.e., me). Or if it does do this, it waits way too long.

Because of these facts, I _never_ destroy an enemy colony. Also, I especially target biologically dissimilar races for assimilation, because they add to my collective ability to colonize other worlds. (We are the Borg.) Example: I'm an O2 Rock race. I blockade a colony of H2 GasGiant people, which is given as tribute next turn. Suddenly I can colonize all those H2 planets in my systems without using domes. Later I force the H2 GasGiant empire to surrender, and I get GasGiant colonizing ability (not to mention 2-8 billion H2 breathers). Unless the AI totally gangs up on me, I'm now unstoppable in the long run. (Resistance is futile.) Now I turn my attentions to CO2 breathers, or Ice colonizers. Using this strategy, I can conquer the entire galaxy in less than the demo's 100-turn limit, and lose less than 20 ships (if I use tactical combat).

p.s. Obviously this strategy would not be so successful in an Advanced Tech game, but then you lose the fun of researching tech.

[Baron Munchausen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
Some stupid things about the diplomatic AI:
1) If you blockade a planet and demand it as tribute, the AI always gives it to you, with all facilities intact and a population that's not especially unhappy about it.
2) If you blockade all of an empire's colonies and destroy all of its ships, it ALWAYS agrees to a demand for surrender, regardless of how you've behaved. Shouldn't it at least try to negotiate for protectorate status, or even subjugation? And shouldn't some races simply refuse to surrender to others, even if it means annihilation?
3) The AI never takes desperate cooperation measures like trading Colonization techs or surrendering to each other, even in the face of a ruthless conqueror who's taken over 1/2 of the galaxy (i.e., me). Or if it does do this, it waits way too long.

Because of these facts, I _never_ destroy an enemy colony. Also, I especially target biologically dissimilar races for assimilation, because they add to my collective ability to colonize other worlds. (We are the Borg.) Example: I'm an O2 Rock race. I blockade a colony of H2 GasGiant people, which is given as tribute next turn. Suddenly I can colonize all those H2 planets in my systems without using domes. Later I force the H2 GasGiant empire to surrender, and I get GasGiant colonizing ability (not to mention 2-8 billion H2 breathers). Unless the AI totally gangs up on me, I'm now unstoppable in the long run. (Resistance is futile.) Now I turn my attentions to CO2 breathers, or Ice colonizers. Using this strategy, I can conquer the entire galaxy in less than the demo's 100-turn limit, and lose less than 20 ships (if I use tactical combat).

p.s. Obviously this strategy would not be so successful in an Advanced Tech game, but then you lose the fun of researching tech.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All of this will change, considerably, in the next release. Hopefully the next demo will be out soon. You'll find many changes, especially in the AI.

[wingte]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
All of this will change, considerably, in the next release. Hopefully the next demo will be out soon. You'll find many changes, especially in the AI.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NEXT DEMO??? WHEN???


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Wingte

[Psitticine]

Check out MM's site (www.malfador.com). There's some info on upcoming matters in the What's New section.

Basically, though, the next demo will be built off the gold code, and that's still on target for 10/1.

[Rambie]

The AI in the latest Beta is much better than in the available demo. It's still not a replacement for a human player but still hard enough.

[dmm]

I'm glad to hear that the AI is improved. I beat up on the .56 demo regularly. But my sons (11 and 9) think it's already plenty hard! Here's what the one does to improve his chances: he starts with high racial points, then makes up all the computer opponents and doesn't have them use all their racial points. "Quite frankly, Captain, you are inferior -- mentally, physically." :-D

[Jubala]

I do the same thing but the other way around to give the AI's a chance. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Sometimes I get some really interesting games this way.

[This message has been edited by Jubala (edited 06 October 2000).]

[Taqwus]

[0.56]

Heh. I might as well have done that for my current game. Instead of my usual beserk fighting races, I opted for a stranger combo using Time, Psychic, Advanced Propulsion, -50% ground combat, +20% research, +20% cunning, and minor maintenance/production/reproduction bonuses.

Interesting opening, as well -- war with the Drushocka almost immediately; we even shared a system from the get-go.

The points on Time were basically wasted, as the two weapons granted seem rather broken -- they usually *repair* the enemy ship (They won't repair destroyed components, but the total damage taken drops almost to nothing...), so for instance 4 CAs with a speed advantage and loaded to the gills with Time weapons will NOT kill an unarmed colony ship. They may immobilize it, but they won't kill it apparently... so that was quite a few points that were misspent. Oops.

On the bright side, two enemies have surrendered to me (at least three to go, at least two of which have allied), and the others are terrified enough of me that I can make outrageous demands like 10 planets + 20 ships + 10 tech levels and they agree. And I've enough intel to either rob 'em blind every turn, or, say, plant lots of ship bombs...

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[dmm]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
[0.56]
The points on Time were basically wasted, as the two weapons granted seem rather broken -- they usually *repair* the enemy ship (They won't repair destroyed components, but the total damage taken drops almost to nothing...), so for instance 4 CAs with a speed advantage and loaded to the gills with Time weapons will NOT kill an unarmed colony ship. They may immobilize it, but they won't kill it apparently... so that was quite a few points that were misspent. Oops.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's strange. I haven't had that problem at all. Playing a game right now with Time weapons, and they're awesome, totally devastating the opponents. (Plus, by this point, I've out-researched my opponents to death. I just simulated 3 of my LCs each armed with 6 Large-Mount Time Distortion Burst V, Sensors II, 3 Armor III, and +1 engines against 18 of my opponents' best destroyers armed with pitiful Antiproton Beam III, and I win every time, even in strategic mode.) Maybe you have your fleet strategy set to not hurt colony ships and you're doing strategic combat??

[Cyrien]

I have also not had any problems with Time Distortion tech. It is also one of my favs. Set that sucker up with Chrystaline and it kicks ***. Skip armor and 4x damage to shields along with chrystaline armor. I have never had problems with it. Even solo time tech is superb.

[Taqwus]

Did some more checking. One of the two Time weapons seemed to operate normally, but the other one (the one with longer range that fires every turn, IIRC) did the repair work. I usually placed 'em in that order, and the second one usually undid whatever damage the first one managed. Odd. In

That's in tactical, full manual control, as well as in strategic w/ Optimal Firing Range set. And my ships never ignore noncombatants. ;-)

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Rambie]

There was bug that had some weapons repair your target. It's been fixed. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Rambie

[Psitticine]

"Private, for the Last time, stop bLasting our enemies with the Temporal Regression Field! I know you like to watch the smoke suck back into their hull breaches, but it makes it hard to win the battle!" http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif