Retrofitting

[General Hawkwing]

My main complaint about retrofitting a ship deal with ships acquired from other empires. I understand the "realism" part about not being able to upgrade an "alien" ship but it would be cool to upgrade the generic components (engines,shields,etc.) on a ship and leave the specialized tech alone. Ex: the LC with shard cannons 3 and ion engines 1.
Also, when you upgrade an "alien" ship with generic components why does the picture of the ship have to change? I know its only appearance but it is neat to have the different designs in your fleets.

[Lerchey]

Interesting thought, but consider the engineering involved. An alien ship would have components of different shapes, sizes and configurations, despite the fact that all "ion engines" are massed at 10kt.

Consider trying to fit the engines from an Independence Day (the movie) fighter into an F-14. Yeah, the weight might not be a problem, but EVERYTHING else would be.

I think it's fine the way it is. Though I agree that if you do do an upgrade, the basic hull should remain unchanged, so you should keep the cool alien pic. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

John

[Seawolf]

But then how would you maintain it? WOuld be cool but not very probable

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Seawolf on the prowl

[General Hawkwing]

I know its not realistic but would be cool. Then again consider the following:
(sorry about length)

When I manage to force another empire to surrender to me I gain what?
a) population that may breath different than me
b) planets and facilities that fit within my specs so well that I gain full capacity of them right away
c) common technology advances if higher than mine (or planet colony tech if different)
d) any and all ships/stations in whatever state they are in, with their orders wiped out
e) if they had racial trait for space saving then any planet with extra facility keeps extra facility

but I don't gain
a) any facility that is currently under construction -all work is lost
b) any ship/station currently under construction
c) the ability to research special technology "unique" to the race
d) the ability to build ships/stations containing special comps. unique to the race
e) new planets don't appear to be able to be able to have extra facility for space saver traits (not sure if this always happens)

Now I can understand c) above being closed. Would you feel comforatable letting a group you took over researching technology you don't understand? Does rebellion come to mind? Also e) closure can be explained with your structure of facility placement not allowing them to use "unsafe" construction. One could stretch a) and b) into destruction my rebels during the transition period. But why doesn't that affect currently built facilities.
But what about d)? Does that knowledge just vanish? Are blueprints lost? Parts of shipyards detroyed and rebuilt to fit your empire? Do the builders/scientists refuse to produce them (considering the population is happy with you)?

Any thoughts/answers??

P.S. Not a major concern, I believe this is one of the best games to date, just wondering....

[Seawolf]

General,

I think the reason is that since you can push the AI to surrender to you if you were to get everything on your list then a Player race can get very powerful very fast. In the later verision of the gmae they adrees this problem but it still an issue

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Seawolf on the prowl

[General Hawkwing]

Seawolf,

Maybe surrendering should not only be less frequent/easy but also more damaging. Like no/limited production for x turns, lose of facilities to "true patriots", rebellion, etc... If one looks at the nations Hitler defeated one learns of a number of different ways resistance was carried on. It would greatly improve balance.
I also believe that surrendering should not happen until an empire is down to at least 1/2 of original population. Bloody? yes but also more realistic.
Also, the AI should never, ever, never tribute or gift a home world.

[Taqwus]

Hmmm.

* There's happiness Ratings. I don't recall the happiness levels immediately after a surrender, but (in 0.56, haven't checked in 0.99) a 'gifted' planet seemed to join as 'Angry', which equates to a production penalty IIRC. If these planets started as 'Rioting'... *shudder*.

If you've previously genocided 20 million of their ilk, they probably SHOULD be rioting when they transfer to your "control"; at least the ones not facing immediate annihilation by your orbiting fleet of planetary bombers... Xenophobic and Beserker races should also, arguably, not go quietly into the night.

FWIW, it may make sense for rioting planets to *lose* facilities/population, and to be treated as enemy. So if you're the Foo, and some of your outworlds get so pissed off at you for whatever reason (say, you're letting them being raided and not bothering to defend them) they may be labelled as "Foo (Rebel)" and act independently, perhaps even attacking loyalist worlds... Right now [0.99], it appears that rioting merely halts production...

* Along the same lines, ships should probably have loyalty Ratings. Perhaps not everybody obeys the call to surrender, say.

* Maybe a 'neutral' race, or one that's simply been pushed to the brink of annihilation or otherwise sees it cannot cope on its own, should offer to surrender to empires that are a) powerful enough to help, b) nearby, and c) well-liked. Basically, voluntary assimilation. In that case, maybe you should be allowed to take advantage of the 'special' tech they have, at least at their worlds -- although this is probably a better use of subjugation/protectorate than surrender.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[General Hawkwing]

I've yet to have anything but happy/jubiliant populations. Had 1 planet gifted Last night and failed to check. I'll look tonight.

[Psitticine]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
* Maybe a 'neutral' race, or one that's simply been pushed to the brink of annihilation or otherwise sees it cannot cope on its own, should offer to surrender to empires that are a) powerful enough to help, b) nearby, and c) well-liked. Basically, voluntary assimilation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember both enjoying the realism and grinding my teeth when an opponent in MOO2 would surrender to another, stronger race instead of allowing itself to fall to me when their oncoming defeat had become too obvious to ignore.

That would be a great piece of AI to add to SEIV, albeit a potential challenge for the coders!

[General Hawkwing]

Or tribute everything away to an ally AI. I've seen this done in AOE2.

In reply to my early post: The gifted/tributed planets are happy. They know a good leader when they see one. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif