3D modelling - HELP!

[TurinTurambar]

AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Oh the fruSTRAtion!!!

OK, so being an artistic person, I've been wanting to try my hand at this modelling thing, cuz I look at what TC, AT, & David do and I just drool! So I went thru the links that Nodachi posted in the Rag-Tag-Fleet thread and decided to download the demo of Cinema 4D.

O...M...G... I am so lost.

Should I have started with a different program that's less sophisticated? Is there something else I can do to get a jump on the learning curve? Should I go and get an Associate's Degree in computer drafting before I try this seriously?

I am so friggin lost.
And frustrated.

Turin/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif

(and again I ask, "Why do you have to mis-spell 'shield' as 'sheild' to get the graemlin to work?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Ed Kolis]

Have you tried Doga (http://www.doga.co.jp)? Or Wings (http://www.wings3d.com)? Or Art of Illusion? (http://www.artofillusion.org)? Or Blender? (http://www.blender.org) I even hear that BRL-CAD was released as open-source but it's mainly geared toward UNIX/Linux and so I've never got a chance to try it out...

[TurinTurambar]

Everyone mentions DOGA. I'll try that first.

Thx.
Turin/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif

[Atrocities]

When I started using DOGA I knew nothing. If you look at my very first set, The UFA and Doppleganger (On the SEIV Gold disk) and compare them to the latest ship set I have done, the Saturians you can see I have come a long way.

DOGA is very easy to learn. All of the parts are pre-made and all you have to do is combine them in such a mannor as to make the image you want. The trick is to not rely upon the prefabbed parts so much as using the basic parts to form the designs you want.

Modeling in DOGA is like playing with lego's. It is a hell of a lot of fun.

[Randallw]

Will current software for SE4 models be usable for SE5 models?

[Fyron]

You might want to skip Doga and start with a modeler that will be capable of making ships useable in SE5 (such as Wings3d)...


Randallw said:
Will current software for SE4 models be usable for SE5 models?

Depends. Doga is not, but a large portion of modelers (hard to say whether it is the majority or not) have used "game" modeling programs that will be capable of making models with low polygon counts, thus will be useable in SE5.

[CovertJaguar]

I've not used it, but you might try GMax (http://www4.discreet.com/gmax/). It is basically a scaled-back Version of 3D Studio Max that is offered for free, for game modding. It can model, but lacks the rendering capabilities of 3D Studio Max. Just something to look into.

EDIT: Maybe not, I looked a little closer and it appears that it will only export to specific game formats. Whether or not one of those formats is .x or a format that can be convert to .x easily I do not know.

EDIT2: I know for a fact that it will export into M3D.

EDIT3: Look what I found, GMax to X-File (http://www.turbosquid.com/MessageBoard/index.cfm/FuseAction/ShowThread/TID/13746). I appears that gmax can be made to export to x-file. Happy Modeling. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[AgentZero]

Or you can try http://www.gentrycitylimits.com/DemoSoftwareA.htm for a demo of Bryce 4. The setup the guy's got for downloading/installing it is a bit annoying, but I'd personally recommend it for beginners. It's only real drawback is a lack of export capability, so there's really no way of getting Bryce models into .X format. I've just posted a question on the Bryce forum to see if the upcoming Version will address this or not.

[Ed Kolis]

K-3D (http://k3d.sourceforge.net) supports .X, is free, and is quite powerful (there are some advanced matrix features and stuff I don't even UNDERSTAND http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif); unfortunately I can't stand the user interface (it seems to take about 40 clicks in various arcane places to get ANYTHING done! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif). However, the developers are working on a new UI for Version 0.6 of the program, and I'm going to try out the CVS Version; if I can make a Windows build of it and it seems useful even in its development state I'll let you know...

[TurinTurambar]

Thanks for all the support and replies folks. I started DOGA and have already built a Troop for the ragtag fleet. (Oh wait... do we still need a troop?)

The question is: Now that I've modelled it in DOGA, how do I turn it into a file that can be viewed here? I know next to nothing about this stuff. I think this does .X whatever that means.

So now what?

Thanks,
Turin

[TurinTurambar]

Didn't know what else to do so here's a screenshot.

Turin/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif

[Ed Kolis]

Ooh, nice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TurinTurambar]

Thanks! Was kind of going for the "HIND Gunship" look.

[Atrocities]

Render it, (Under Display. I render at 1000x1000, but you can render it at any size you wish. 128x128. Also when you make your mini's, it is best to do it from the Create Movement DOGA program. In that case all you do is add OBJECT, center the camera view dead center top, and render.) Save it as a PNG, and then upload to the forum. Put in post with the the [image]tags.

[Fyron]

Atrocities said:
Render it, (Under Display. I render at 1000x1000, but you can render it at any size you wish. 128x128.

Generally best to render at a larger size, then reduce in size with Photoshop or Paintshop Pro or something of that nature to your target size.

[TurinTurambar]

OK here they are as larger images. The shading of the models kinda gets lousy when rendered so they look even more "untextured" than when created. I guess I could try to attach them as whatever format can be opened in another modelling program? Then someone else could slap some skin on them? Like I said, I'm an artistic person, but I actually have no idea what I'm doing!

So here's the Medium troop:


...and here's a small transport:


AAAaaaarrrgh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif or not...
I can't "paste" between the [image]tags.

*/me feels dense and rolls eyes at self repeatedly.

[TurinTurambar]

Ok. So with the attachment feature, as .png images, here's the troop:

[TurinTurambar]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif...and here's the small transport:

[Nodachi]

Turin, like this:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/323107-MedTroop.png </pre><hr />

BTW, you might want to make your images a little bit smaller. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TurinTurambar]

Ahhh... I see. So I make it smaller, as suggested, attach it, and then paste the link to the attachment into the image-tags?

Or should I stick these in my Yahoo!Briefcase and paste that url in there...

I know that others are pasting in links to wherever their images are on their websites, but these new images aren't on any site yet, so what would be the prefered method? (If I could, I'd disect someone else's post, but...)

[Atrocities]

TurinTurambar said:
OK here they are as larger images. The shading of the models kinda gets lousy when rendered so they look even more "untextured" than when created. I guess I could try to attach them as whatever format can be opened in another modelling program? Then someone else could slap some skin on them? Like I said, I'm an artistic person, but I actually have no idea what I'm doing!

So here's the Medium troop:



...and here's a small transport:


AAAaaaarrrgh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif or not...
I can't "paste" between the [image]tags.

*/me feels dense and rolls eyes at self repeatedly.



Must be a PNG image.

[Atrocities]

First, what Version of DOGA are you using? If its L1 then go get L3 and install it.

Go HERE (http://www.worldlingo.com/en/websites/url_translator.html) and enter in this address into the Translate Website tab. http://doga.jp/2004/programs/dogal/dogal3/download.html Set to translate from Japanese to English and click ok - if it fails, try again. If not download L3 210 (http://doga.jp/archive/021010/dl3_210.exe) or L3 210 T (http://doga.jp/archive/021010/dl3_210t.exe) or both. L3 210T has High Res objects and rendering ability.

Also visit the DOGA Forums (http://www.doga.co.jp/english/bbs/bbs.cgi) and browse them for links to download new parts. Also visit Todd's WEB SITE (http://zircher.iwarp.com/doga/) for more help.

You have seen the renders I have done, so that should tell you that it can be done.

[TurinTurambar]

I'm going to upgrade from L1 to L3 today now that I'm fairly comfortable with L1. Will it install seperately or update the L1 install?

[Atrocities]

I don't know. I guess the best way is to install it and see what happens. Mostly likely it will install over L1 and you will have to select your L1 images manually as it will default to open only L3 images.

[TurinTurambar]

I've now installed L2 and L3. They install seperately. In the File drop-down of 2 and 3 is the abililty to "Open DOGA-L1 File."
I've got a boring fighter model I made in L1 opened in L2 and I'm playing with the textures.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/323207-BoringFighter.bmp
Don't so much like any of them. Are there textures to download into this as there are parts/components? Is there a way to mod the textures to get different effects? If TC is only using DOGA, where does he get all those *****in textures?

Thanks,
Turin/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif

[TurinTurambar]

Oh fer f's sake...

[Atrocities]

Take a night off and relax. You will figure it out in the morning.

Open the DOGA L3 folder and make a short cut for the DOGA.exe file.

Or copy the DOGA file and BMP for the ship you have and email them to me. (Zip them please.) I will see what I can do.

The textures are mostly made or aquired via a google search.

Also to post an image on this site it has to be PNG. You can save your rendered object with a black back ground as a PNG. (Doga L3 that is) L1 is much more limited.

Just send me the files.

[Atrocities]

I downloaded and resaved your image as a png. Lets see if it works.

Never mind, did not work. Ask David Gervais how he did it.

[Nodachi]

Let's give it a try:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/323233-fighterx.png

OK, the only thing I did different was to resave it with a lowercase png as the file extension;
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/323233-fighterx.png </pre><hr />

[NarfsCompIsBack]

Oooh! Aaah!

[TerranC]

TurinTurambar said:
Don't so much like any of them. Are there textures to download into this as there are parts/components? Is there a way to mod the textures to get different effects? If TC is only using DOGA, where does he get all those *****in textures?



From Google image search, from Freespace 2, from a friend, and some... I mean one I've created myself.

But mostly from a site which I would be happy to give you a link to it via PM if you are interested.

And if you would like, I could try to write up a quick tutorial on DoGA texturing.

[NarfsCompIsBack]

Why not just post the link?

[Timstone]

Nice fighter! Me like it. Only the window isn't really my stile. Maybe something a little more transparent?

[Atrocities]

He is off to a good start. If keeps up with it, it will be nice to see what he can come up with.

[David E. Gervais]

AT said: "Never mind, did not work. Ask David Gervais how he did it."

I have no idea what you're talking about.. How I did what?
If you mean how did I make textures I find many on the net and almost always modify them to fit my needs. I also found out I can very easily make textures in Bryce (which is my rendering program of choice)

Note about the 'image' tag.. The only types of pics that work are .gif, .jpg, and .png (my personal preference for posting is .jpg)

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TurinTurambar]

AT, how did you change the background on my fighter to black before you posted it?

(I want to be able to do that, but I dont particularly like it for this model cuz it "eats" the dark part of the camouflage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

You guys really like that fighter? I thought it was boring. I much prefer the small transport. I'll redo that one in L2, slap a skin on it, render it as a png and put it in my next post. I'll do the portrait/mini Version in the other thread in case anyone wants to add it to the fleet.

Thnks 4 the kind words and advice all, and yes TC, a texturing tutorial for DOGA and a link to those textures would be GREATLY appreciated! This is fun and I need more options. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TurinTurambar]

Timstone said:
Nice fighter! Me like it. Only the window isn't really my style. Maybe something a little more transparent?



That "window" is actually part of a stock fuselage that I reshaped to suit my needs, therefore I couldnt change it. The colony ship I'm building from scratch has nice shiny blue windows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif It'll be a week before I'm done with it though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Timstone]

Well keep up the good work, we'll be waiting for the result. Good luck!

[TurinTurambar]

test
http://img148.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img148&amp;image=smltnspt1280na.png

I guess I really don't understand the use of image tags. I can copy and paste that http into my browser and go right to the image.

WTF!

So i've put the fullsize transport as an attachment. It's big: 999x999

[Timstone]

Nice render. Maybe you could make the texture you use for armorplating (visible on the front section) a little bit small. This way the ships looks bigger. It also adds more realism to the construction of your ship. No shipyard can build with armorplates the size of houses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TurinTurambar]

http://img151.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img151&amp;image=smtnspttop961sn.png

Here's the top-down image for the minibmp with the crane collapsed. Just copy and paste it.

[TurinTurambar]

Timstone said:
Nice render. Maybe you could make the texture you use for armorplating (visible on the front section) a little bit small. This way the ships looks bigger. It also adds more realism to the construction of your ship. No shipyard can build with armorplates the size of houses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I haven't figured out how to edit the textures yet. I'll be doing a google on textures this evening and hoping as well that Mr. Terran C was serious about the tutorial.

Regards, Turin/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif

[TerranC]

TurinTurambar said:
I haven't figured out how to edit the textures yet. I'll be doing a google on textures this evening and hoping as well that Mr. Terran C was serious about the tutorial.

Regards, Turin/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif



I was, and still am, serious. You'll need to download and install (if you haven't already done so) DoGA Lvl 3. And I'll be sending you a PM and possibly an attachment containing the textures I use.

[TurinTurambar]

Timstone said:
Well keep up the good work, we'll be waiting for the result. Good luck!



Here's a little taste. (Attachment) I suprised myself by pulling off the attempted cable structure supporting the... the err... thingies around it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Nodachi]

That Last one is really cool! Looks like a fair bit of work too. Great job! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TurinTurambar]

It's not done yet, but thanks very much!

I think it helps to have an 11-year-old son... I'm 37 and I still play with legos!

(AT was right about this program... it is almost like Legos©

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Happily,
Turin

[Nodachi]

Turin, I know exactly what you're talking about, my son is five! One of the great things about having kids is getting to play with all the new toys that have come out since you were a kid! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

TurinTurambar said:
AT, how did you change the background on my fighter to black before you posted it?

(I want to be able to do that, but I dont particularly like it for this model cuz it "eats" the dark part of the camouflage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

You guys really like that fighter? I thought it was boring. I much prefer the small transport. I'll redo that one in L2, slap a skin on it, render it as a png and put it in my next post. I'll do the portrait/mini Version in the other thread in case anyone wants to add it to the fleet.

Thnks 4 the kind words and advice all, and yes TC, a texturing tutorial for DOGA and a link to those textures would be GREATLY appreciated! This is fun and I need more options. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif



I did it the old fashioned way, in PAINT.

When I use DOGA L3 I have the images rendered with a black back ground at 1000 x 1000. I then use Windows Tools to resize them to 128 x 128 and 36 x 36 and the use PAINT to ensure that the black back ground is indeed black by chaging it to a white back ground the back to black. I save my work and I am done.

[Atrocities]

Wait until you get L3 working with all the extra parts. Ohhhh boy.

[ToxicSlurpee]

Heh...here's a couple things I made with DOGA. I'll agree with Atrocities...it's crazy fun!

http://www.strike9.com/toxicslurpee/dreadnought.jpg

http://www.strike9.com/toxicslurpee/rablak.jpg

The top is the shipset's dreadnought. The set isn't quite done yet, so it's not getting put anywhere yet.

The second is what I intend on using for the race picture. I created them to be the energy manipulation race for the mod I'm working on. Basically, they are biological fusion reactions (a bit like small stars, I guess), hence the glowing, and glow brighter when agitated. They can also change energy to matter to a limited degree, which lets them build themselves carbon-based limbs, organs, and such.

...

The sciencey stuff to define the race is still in the works.

[Timstone]

Turin:
Way to go dude! Like AT said, wait till you install more parts and stuff, then you'll get more an more into the program. Then the fun really begins.

Toxic:
Cool ships. I like the organic feel they have.

[Atrocities]

Please Check your Private Messages TurinTurambar, and how do you pronounce your name?

[TurinTurambar]

Atrocities said:
Please Check your Private Messages TurinTurambar, and how do you pronounce your name?


Right back at ya, big fella.

---------------------------------

/jess-key/ or /jhesh-keh/ depending on where youre from.

Turin

[kerensky]

Question about DoGA. Is there a way to get more parts/textures for the program???

[Atrocities]

Yes, Todd Z has posted links to download more parts on the Doga English forum. Just scroll through the message until you find it.

[ToxicSlurpee]

Oh my. More parts to play with?

*sigh* I'll never sleep again!

[Atrocities]

And they are good parts too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I am normally on MSN or Trillan by 1pm PST each day.

If you see me here posting, send me a PM.

[kerensky]

Toxic, how did you create the glowing parts on your models? Did you set the emmisions high or did you use the glow material setting?

[kerensky]

When I use DOGA L3 I have the images rendered with a black back ground at 1000 x 1000. I then use Windows Tools to resize them to 128 x 128 and 36 x 36 and the use PAINT to ensure that the black back ground is indeed black by chaging it to a white back ground the back to black. I save my work and I am done.



Is Windows Tools a program that comes default with windows or do you have to buy it seperatly? Also, waht are the advantages/disadvantages of doing it this way instead of just rendering them in 128 x 128 and 32 x 32?

[TurinTurambar]

By "Windows Tools" I think he means a standard Windows program like Paint or Photo Editor.

Rendering larger and then shrinking, in effect, gives you a higher resolution.

Turin

[Ed Kolis]

But it also causes a moire effect on renders which require heavy antialiasing (see my Annihilatorbeam which I recently submitted to the imagemod - the white and black rings on the mini don't really look like rings because I shrunk the image from the original portrait image http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif)

[TurinTurambar]

Yeah, that's true.
But what can we do?
If Aaron says 36x36
Our options are few.

Hey, that's like, a poem er somethin.

Turin

[Ed Kolis]

Render at 36x36 so that the renderer's antialiasing will fix the moire effect... you might get a gray blob, but it beats The Japanese Anime Spastic Blinking Seizure Robots Color Show (TM) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif :p

[Fyron]

TurinTurambar said:
By "Windows Tools" I think he means a standard Windows program like Paint or Photo Editor.

Rendering larger and then shrinking, in effect, gives you a higher resolution.

Turin

I believe he was refering to one of the XP Power Toys programs that can resize images decently well. Far better than MS Paint at any rate. Still better to use an actual graphics program if you have one though.

[ToxicSlurpee]

kerensky said:
Toxic, how did you create the glowing parts on your models? Did you set the emmisions high or did you use the glow material setting?



I used the Emmition setting. It wasn't high or low, I used the custom type and set it to about 400% for the ships. I forget what I set the Rablak himself to, but it was probably similar.

[EaX]

hi!
i was about to download the program you mention here (doga i think it's name is), but the problem is that from what i see it's about 30 mb don't?, and with my modem it'll take about 3,4 hours with luck, so...., it's worth?, i've blender, but it seems a bit complicated but i've to read some tut i found, so what do you think, should i try to download doga?

[Atrocities]

If you want to make ship sets and have fun, then yes, it is worth it. But be sure you download DOGA L3.

[TerranC]

I used the Emmition setting. It wasn't high or low, I used the custom type and set it to about 400% for the ships. I forget what I set the Rablak himself to, but it was probably similar.



Emition Low Preset = Emition tab at 0%
Emition High Preset = Emition tab at 400%

[TurinTurambar]

Grrrr! My DoGA L3 seems to have "blown up;" I open a part in the assembler and as soon as I click any part to edit it, I get:


Pame has caused an error in PICLIB.DLL. Pame will now close.



... and then it crashes. I assume PICLIB is the picture library?

On another note, I can't seem to use any of these *****in new textures I downloaded either. (Moreover, when exploring the file folders of DoGA, I find all sorts of textures and effects that aren't available when I'm using the Parts Assembler, but I think that's a whole 'nother issue.)

Is there a standard resolution that the textures have to be? Do they have to be .png files? I can take a jpeg of a table-lamp from a desktop folder and paste it over a ship hull, but not any of these textures. WTF?

Oh, and the uninstall process won't finish either, so I can't reinstall the darn thing.

LIL' HELP....!
Turin

[TerranC]

TurinTurambar said:
On another note, I can't seem to use any of these *****in new textures I downloaded either. (Moreover, when exploring the file folders of DoGA, I find all sorts of textures and effects that aren't available when I'm using the Parts Assembler, but I think that's a whole 'nother issue.)

Is there a standard resolution that the textures have to be? Do they have to be .png files? I can take a jpeg of a table-lamp from a desktop folder and paste it over a ship hull, but not any of these textures. WTF?

Turin



They can be in any resolution, and they can be in BMP, JPEG, PNG, or in TGA format.

As for your PICLIB.dll problem, I haven't a clue on how to fix it; try just reinstalling over everything and see if that works.

[TurinTurambar]

Thanks TC. I'm tired and hungry right now so this isn't the time I guess. I'll try manually removing all the L3 crap and reinstalling after that. I tried just running the install again and it does the same thing.

Ugh. Computers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Turin/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif

[ToxicSlurpee]

TerranC said:


I used the Emmition setting. It wasn't high or low, I used the custom type and set it to about 400% for the ships. I forget what I set the Rablak himself to, but it was probably similar.



Emition Low Preset = Emition tab at 0%
Emition High Preset = Emition tab at 400%



Now THAT is quite amusing. When it comes to Emmition, I don't use the presets at all. Funny how that worked out.

[TurinTurambar]

OK. So the error occurs when I click an arrow in the bottom of the texture window and open a file browser. (Attached screenshot). If I click to set an external texture to that button, that's the error I get.

Now. The problem is, once you set that button to that texture it can never be changed, that's a function of the program that TodZ mentions even in his tutorial. And now that the texture is in there, anytime you try to edit any pallet, it sees that error in loading to PicLib and the whole thing crashes. The whole program is now completely defunct. The only solution is to manually remove all of DoGA (data/mecha backed up of course) and reinstall the whole thing.

That TOTALLY blows. Has anyone else had this problem? I have all my external textures in a folder on the Desktop... is that wrong? / should they be "installed" somehow? Where do you guys save your textures?

I know it's not a size problem, cuz I have several at the recommended 512x512 and those don't work either. I also know it's not a filetype problem; they're all jpeg's.

I'm at a loss and haven't worked on a model in a week and that's really buggin me...


I'll reinstall it tonight and try to get that funky error again. I've tried emailing TodZ, but he hasn't responded.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gifTurin

&lt;edit: found the error screenshot&gt;

[zircher]

What's your current status on that PAME bug? I think I replied off list several weeks ago. One possiblity that has come to mind is that a progressive JPG image might freak out the image library code if it didn't know how to parse it. Also, I think you can just edit an INI file to remove files from your texture scratch pad without having to re-install L3.
--
TAZ

Specifically, you can edit dogal3.ini with any text editor and change/delete the UserTexture entries. That might save you some grief.