Simple armor question

[AMF]

Ok, I've been able to avoid figuring this out for a long time, but I must now ask what is probably a simple question. I looked through the FAQ, and didn't find the answer (but I'm probably looking in the wrong place).

How does armor that automatically dismisses a certain amount of damage work in the aggregate?

For example, Race A has weapons that do X damage. Race B has armor that automatically deflects/abosrbs/dismisses X+10 damage.

When I fire at Race B ships, do all their armor stack against all the damage of my single volley? or does it do it on a shot by shot basis?

For example, if race A ships hit a Race B ship with ten shots, for a total of 10X damage, and race B ship has 5 armor to deflect a total of 5X+50, does the game compare the totals done by Race A to the total absorbed by Race B and apply any extra as damage that gets through?

Or, is each shot by Race A deflected automatically, since it is examined in isolation?

I appreciate any help understanding this admittedly simple issue.

Thanks,

Alarik

[Ragnarok-X]

Each shot counts. So if your weapon has a damage of 50 and the target has 2 armors which have the shield-generation from damage value of 5 each, than the 50 damage will be decreased by 10 damage, making a total of 40. Those 40 are then decreased by the 10 shield they generated, so in fact 30 points go through. At least thats what i think how it works...

[AMF]

I'm still confused, but I think it's due to verbiage.

Let me take your example like this: if each weapon causes 50 damage, and each armor on their ship deflects/absorbs 10 damage, then how do these situations play out:

Situation One:
I have two weapons and both hit for 50 damage done each (total=100 points of damage). They have 5 armor, each deflecting 5 damage each. So, do I do:
a) 75 points of damage to the enemy ship (100-25), or
b) 50 points of damage to the enemy ship (2x(50-25))

Situation two:

I have two weapons and both hit for 50 damage done each (total=100 points of damage) just like above. They however have 20 armor this time, each deflecting 5 damage each. So, do I do:

a) zero damage (100 - 100 = 0) or
b) 60 damage (2X(50-20)) or
c) zero damage, but this time because each shot is 50 - 100 = 0.

I know I'm being anal, but I think it matters a lot in a certain game..

thanks,

Alarik



Ragnarok-X said:
Each shot counts. So if your weapon has a damage of 50 and the target has 2 armors which have the shield-generation from damage value of 5 each, than the 50 damage will be decreased by 10 damage, making a total of 40. Those 40 are then decreased by the 10 shield they generated, so in fact 30 points go through. At least thats what i think how it works...

[Spoo]

I both cases you do ninety damage total. The number of emmissive armors don't matter. (50-5 + 50-5 = 90)

EDIT: added equation

[AMF]

What if this were crystalline armor rather than emissive - do those stack instead?

Thanks, sorry to keep this going, just want to know...

Alarik

[rdouglass]

Spoo said:The number of emmissive armors don't matter....



So any more than 1 is a waste since regular armor has a better protection/Kt ratio?

I knew this was the case w/ scattering and stealth (w/ def bonus), but emissive as well? (I too don't want to beat this up, just want to clarify...)

[AMF]

Yeah, emissive doesn't stack and so it is a waste to have more than one...but I remain unsure of the way crystal works....

[Fyron]

Emissive armor and crystalline armor are absolutely, fundamentally different.

Emissive armor acts just as Spoo said, by reducing the damage of each shot by the highest ability level of any component on the ship (no stacking at all). It does not matter which component is hit, the reduction still occurs.

Crystalline armor does not reduce any damage. It requires functional shield generators to have any affect. You take full damage when a weapon hits your hull. An amount of shield points are added to your shield levels that does not exceed either the total of all CA ability on the ship or the total damage done by the weapon. The next shot will then have to damage these new shield points before being able to damage the hull. Any amount of partial damage that was left over from the previous shot does not stay on the hull, but instead is added to the damage for the next incoming shot. This allows you to become immune to weapons that do not do enough damage to destroy a complete CA component in a single shot, provided that you have enough CA ability. It does not matter which component is hit, the shield generation still occurs (this is what allows leaky shields in mods to function). Say you have 150+ ability points and the enemy uses weapons that do 70 damage. Assume that your shield points are currently at 0. Shot A hits, and does 70 damage. 70 shield points are added to the totals. Shot B hits. That 70 partial damage from shot A is then added to the damage of shot B. Shot B effectively does 140 damage. The 70 shield points are vaporized. 70 damage is done to the hull (which currently has 0 damage accumulated), and 70 shield points are generated. The next shot does the same thing.

Any sort of armor skipping weapon does not trigger either of these abilities, even if the ability is on a component that is not armor (in a mod). Shard Cannons, Null Space Projectors, etc.

[NullAshton]

Crystal is diffrent. Lets say you have a 50 damage weapon, and they have a crystalline ability of 10.

50 damage hits. That does 50 TOTAL damage. The first time its hit, nothing happens, except 10 of the damage is put into shields(think this is how it works).

50 damage hits again. 10 of this is stopped by shields. That is 40 damage by the time it hits the armor. But 10 of THAT damage, is turned into shields, but it still hits the armor. So 40 damage is done.

We decide to shoot again, with a 10 damage weapon. That damage destroys the 10 shield points from the Last time, but no damage goes through to the armor. Since no damage hit the armor, nothing is done, and no shield points are generated.

Another shot, another day. 10 damage hits. But instead of hitting our nice shiny crystalline armor, it hits a regular piece of armor instead. It does 10 damage to the regular armor, but 10 shield points are still generated! This is confusing, but I guess all the armor is 'blended' together.

15 damage shot this time. 10 points is asourbed by the shields, and 5 breaks through. Thus, 5 damage hits the armor. Because only 5 damage hit this time, only 5 shield points are created.

I think that this is how it works, if anyone would like to correct me, feel free to do so.

[Nodachi]

The way I thought emissive armor worked was like this:

when the ship takes damage the emissive value reduces it
the remaining damage is applied against the structure of the armor
after destroying the first armor component the remaining damage is reduced by the emissive value of the second armor component
any remaining damage is then applied against the structure of the second armor comp
this cycles until you either run out of armor or damage

I'll go ahead and try to set up a test to find out for sure how it works and report back.

[Fyron]

Nodachi said:
The way I thought emissive armor worked was like this:

when the ship takes damage the emissive value reduces it
the remaining damage is applied against the structure of the armor
after destroying the first armor component the remaining damage is reduced by the emissive value of the second armor component
any remaining damage is then applied against the structure of the second armor comp
this cycles until you either run out of armor or damage

This is how it worked in SE3, but not in SE4. Only one emissive armor ability is applied per shot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Nodachi]

Thank you Fyron.

[Riesig_Bar]

Ok really new and haven't played much. I saw this and I wanted to be sure about how it works so I am asking maybe a stupid question.

First I don't know what emissive armour is. Like I said I have barly played. The only armour I have seen so far is titanium (sp). But I haven't even played 2 years worth of turns. So here is my question.

If I have a destroyer and put 3 armour on it only one counts?

[Fyron]

Each component of armor acts as a separate component of armor. 3 Armor IIIs count as 3 Armor III components. Emissive Armor is more advanced armor that becomes available with Armor 4-6 technologies. It has an ability that reduces damage taken by the ship (once shields are down). This special damage reduction ability is what does not stack, so 3 Emissive Armor I components have the same damage reduction applied per shot as 1 Emissive Armor I component. Extra components are useful in case the first Emissive Armor I component is destroyed, as there is still some Emissive Armor left to reduce damage.

[Riesig_Bar]

Imperator Fyron said:
Each component of armor acts as a separate component of armor. 3 Armor IIIs count as 3 Armor III components. Emissive Armor is more advanced armor that becomes available with Armor 4-6 technologies. It has an ability that reduces damage taken by the ship (once shields are down). This special damage reduction ability is what does not stack, so 3 Emissive Armor I components have the same damage reduction applied per shot as 1 Emissive Armor I component. Extra components are useful in case the first Emissive Armor I component is destroyed, as there is still some Emissive Armor left to reduce damage.



Ok I feel better putting armour on my ships now. I haven't gotten to armour II yet. Let alone any thing more. So much to learn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Caduceus]

Make sure your family checks on you every few days, Riesig Bar
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[ToxicSlurpee]

wildcard06 said:
Make sure your family checks on you every few days, Riesig Bar
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Nah, they just need to get him a quantum generator - he'll never need supplies again! (hurr hurr)

Anyhoo...this thread really made me re-think what I thought armor types did. Nifty.

[NarfsCompIsBack]

And hello. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Heh, I wasn't sure what they did myself.

Just to clarify: Accumulated damage will eventually destroy CA, right?

[douglas]

No. In order to destroy crystalline armor, you must do more damage per shot than either the total shields from damage ability on the ship or the structure of one crystalline armor component. Anything less than both of those numbers is incapable of harming the ship, and could actually reduce the effect of a previous, more powerful shot. Of course, all of this is irrelevant if you get a few hits with shield disruptors and the ship doesn't have an intact shield generator any more.

[Atrocities]

Ok I am utterly confused and hopelessly lost by all of this. Thank you for making my brain hurt.

[Suicide Junkie]

Perhaps somebody should make a little graphical CA simulator http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[NarfsCompIsBack]

Yes. That would help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

What the hell is a CA?

[Slick]

Crystalline Armor.

The "Dubious Strategy Guide" has a really good armor discussion. This guide has a really good example of how CA works. There are small parts of it that have been made obsolete by patches. Most notably the pre-regeneration of organic armor has been patched out.

[AMF]

Ok, I feel a bit better now. I really thought I was asking a stupid question, but I see now that , welll, Crystalline and other armor types really are confusing...

[Fyron]

The only stupid question is the one that is not asked.

[/cliche] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kamog]

Thanks for the explaination. I was never very clear on how emissive armor works exactly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

...does the emissive armor work on fighters? What happens if you shoot at a stack of fighters with emissive armor? I guess the number of fighters destroyed by the shot is equal to the damage of the shot divided by the (structure of each fighter plus the emissive ability per fighter)?

[Fyron]

I do not believe that EA and CA abilities work on units of any sort.