OT (or is it?): American Imperialism

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I was just browsing the newspapers when I saw a mentioning of "Bush squeezing oil out of VASSAL STATE Iraq". I'd thought about this b4, about American global commercial/political/military imperialism. Saddam refused to let WMD inspectors enter his country... and what do the US do? Invade the country... WITHOUT A UN MANDATE. Ok, for Afghanistan, they had one, but for Iraq? The UN was still voting!

And look to the current situation: murders, kidnappings, bombings, urban warfare, etc. Before the invasion, Iraq was stable - opressed, but stable.

A few days back I noticed a small mention in the newspapers of a controversial Iraqi politician who "would rid the Iraqi Parliament of Saddam loyalists". Well, excuse me, but I believe that about the entire Shi'ite population of Iraq were Saddam loyalists... and they comprise about 20% of the Iraqi population. To "rid the Iraqi parliament of Saddam loyalists" would mean shutting TWENTY PERCENT of the ENTIRE IRAQI POPULATION out of parliament. And then what? You could very easily end up with a situation where the Shi'ites are being restricted in many aspects of life - due to laws passed in parliament - which were made by Sunni politicians - which were the only politicians in the parliament. But would the US interfere in case of discrimination like this? I can imagine the official reaction:
"The Iraqi parliament has voted to pass these laws. They were created in a democratic fashion, and we will not interfere with democracy."
Hypocritic son of a *****.

And in the end were there any nukes or WMDs in Iraq? No, just several poorly maintained facilities with radioactive material - which is currently irradiating the population, and the US has not done ANYTHING to prevent it.

Sometimes, I really wonder: why do we allow the US to exert this much influence on us? Why does the US have to interfere everywhere in the world? Why do we still have a f*cking NATO if the US comprises over half of its entire military strength? Why do we allow the US to force us? Why do they have nukes stationed in Europe that almost nobody knows about? Why do US multinatitionals intrude our lives? McDonalds restaurants are to be found everywhere in the world - from Rio to China. In the waning days of the Soviet Union, McDonalds opened restaurants in Moscow. Why? What is it that the US have to demonstrate their power to themselves in every possible way?

[dogscoff]

I don't want to say anything much because this thread is probably doomed to becoming a flamefest anyway, but you are not the only one who is angry.

[geoschmo]

Why? Like Clinton said, "Because we can." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Say what you want about the motivations of the US administration attacking Iraq. A lot of Americans will agree with you on that. President Bush was just recently reelected by the smallest margin ever for an incumbant, so don't assume that all Americans agree with him.

But how does McDonalds in Moscow translate into evidence of some nefarious plot? It's called international trade. Americans buy a lot of stuff from your country. In fact, we set a record trade deficet last year. MickyD's wasn't installed in Moscow by a military invasion. Some Muscovite decided his fellow citizens would enjoy eating greasy cheeseburgers and soggy french fries enough to pay money for the privilage. McDonalds being in business to make money simply obliged them. No one is forcing people to eat there.

By the way, you have got Shi'ite and Sunni reversed in your post. The Sunnis are the 20% minority that is presumed to be loyal to Saddam. In reality most of them probably saw he was a bastard too, but at this point they are facing the very real prospect of being on the wrong end of a round of ethnic cleansing, so it would be natural that they might long for the "good ole days".

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I'm not Russian. And I'm not necessarily saying something about a "nefarious plot". But I do sometimes notice the over-excessive invasion of Americanism into our lives. A large part of the major expenses we (Europeans) make are either for Japanese or American products, but I don't see Japan invading islamic nations or forcing their way of life onto us.

edit: Oh, and if I reverse Shi'ite and Sunni in my post, well that doesn't matter that much - what I'm saying still holds. The Sunni minority will STILL be looked on with contempt from now on.

And what to think about the "vassal state" Iraq? It's an almost feudal situation. The US can basically do anything they want with the country.

edit 2: International trade? International trade is OK, multinationalism too, but commercial and cultural imperialism isn't.

[geoschmo]

Cultural imperialism doesn't exsist. It's a myth. It's something for people in other countries to blame when they see their children growing up listening to Rock and Roll and wearing Levi's. American parents have similer complaints. Insteaed of blaming other countries we blame Hollywood. I don't know what parents in Hollywood complain about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

American business doesn't go into other countries to spread our culture. They go there because they see an opportuity to make money selling things to people in those countries that want to buy them. If your complaint is that you don't like people in your country buying American products, then don't buy American products. But the real problem is that people in your contry want to buy American products, not "cultural imperialism".

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

The US "way of life" is being forced upon us everywhere. That's what I call "cultural imperialism".

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

And I do NOT have any objections to people wearing Levi's... it's their choice. But it's the way that the US is promoting itself everywhere it can, patting itself on the back for something that they had no right or reason to do, that did not go so very well, and that is still not exactly finished.

[geoschmo]

The US way of life isn't being "forced" on anybody. If you live in Iraq or Afganistan you could definetly make a case that something is being forced on you by the US, but it's not the US way of life. If you live anywhere else then anything you are getting from the US is being bought, not forced on you.

I am using your terms here, but I don't accept the notion of a US way of life. Americans are not a homogenus group of cultures and political viewpoints. We don't have a master plan to take over the world. Well, not all of use do anyway. Most of us are simply trying to make a living. Some of use make that living selling you cigarettes, cheeseburger and beer. Well, maybe not beer. Nobody but an American would be stupid enough to drink American beer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[geoschmo]

So is your complaint here about the spread of US influence cultrually and economically around the world, or is your complaint about the military invasion of Iraq? Because they are two totally different things. Arguements for and against both are not interchangable.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I don't smoke (and tobacco commercials are illegal where I live) and I'm a vegetarian (e.g. I drink milk and eat eggs, but I don't eat anything containing the cadavers of animals.).

Ok, so the US "way of life" is not being forced upon us (Europeans). But there are STILL nukes stationed here. Why? The only feasible threats at this moment are Iran and North Korea, and the US have plenty of allies closer to thos countries... why the f*cking hell don't you just GET YOUR F*CKING MISSILESD OUT OF OUR F*CKING COUNTRIES?!?!? WE DON'T WNAT YOUR NUKES!!!!!

(Note: Nothing personal.)

[TerranC]

StrategiaInUltima said:
A large part of the major expenses we (Europeans) make are either for Japanese or American products, but I don't see Japan invading islamic nations or forcing their way of life onto us.



That's because they already tried and failed.

[geoschmo]

StrategiaInUltima said:
But there are STILL nukes stationed here. Why? The only feasible threats at this moment are Iran and North Korea, and the US have plenty of allies closer to thos countries... why the f*cking hell don't you just GET YOUR F*CKING MISSILESD OUT OF OUR F*CKING COUNTRIES?!?!? WE DON'T WNAT YOUR NUKES!!!!!

(Note: Nothing personal.)

Why don't you ask your own elected leaders? I can guarantee you that any nukes would be pulled out of any European country that told the US flatly to remove them. The last thing we want is nuclear weapons sitting in a country that is potetially turning hostile towards us. There is a sizable percentage of Americans, I consider myself one, that thinks the need for large numbers of US military personell stationed in Europe is past. But whenever the idea of bringing those garrisons home is brought up, some of the loudest voices objecting are the governments hosting them and the busineses in those countries that sell things to those soldiers. You want our soldiers there spending their money in your resturants and stores, just don't be bringing your "culture" in here. Leave that on the base thank you very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I don't think Japan has ever invaded an Islamic country.

Ask our elected leaders? Pah! When the parliament here debated about whether or not to send soldiers to Iraq, over 80% of the population was against it... and they were sent. Some time back, less than 20% of the population supported our Prime Minister.

[NullAshton]

Bush's tern will be over in a little less that 4 years. Everyone in the world will celebrate then.

[TerranC]

StrategiaInUltima said:
I don't think Japan has ever invaded an Islamic country.



Wait 5 years or until OPEC decides to stop selling the world Oil.

[Alneyan]

StrategiaInUltima said:
I don't think Japan has ever invaded an Islamic country.




WW2 perhaps? Indonesia is mostly an Islamic country (among others), but I do not know if Japan conquered Indonesia during WW2 (modern history has never been my cup of tea).

And Japan has been trying to "impose their culture": mangas and animes are much more popular here than comics, and Asian restaurants are simply more common than places selling American beer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I would not call this imposing culture, however; at best, governments can try to promote their culture aboard, or make it harder for foreign culture to "invade" the country.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Japan conquered Indonesia, alright. They conquered whole fricking East Asia from China to the Pacific and from Hokkaido (but that already was Japan) to New Guinea. But that was in a time when Japan was a fascist empire. I was talking about nowadays.

Though I don't know if Indonesia was islamic in WWII. Back then, we still controlled it, and we were christian. I think that most of the population there was christian as well (like in the Phillippines) and that it only became an Islamic country after they had (rightfully, I think) won their independence.

(I know I've been using "islamic" and "Islamic".)

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

http://projectxstudios.com/funny/europe_usa.jpg

slightly related to "cultural imperialism": Europe strikes back!

[TerranC]

Japan conquered Indonesia, alright. They conquered whole fricking East Asia from China to the Pacific and from Hokkaido (but that already was Japan) to New Guinea. But that was in a time when Japan was a fascist empire. I was talking about nowadays.



What makes you think they have changed completely? What makes you so sure that the entire japanese population does not harbour right-wing ideas and nostalgia for their past?


Though I don't know if Indonesia was islamic in WWII. Back then, we still controlled it, and we were christian. I think that most of the population there was christian as well (like in the Phillippines) and that it only became an Islamic country after they had (rightfully, I think) won their independence.



Mr. Dutchman, read what you have typed there once more, very carefully, word per word, and see if it makes sense.

[geoschmo]

Islam spread to Indonesia by way of the Asian continent hundreds of years before Christianity came with the Porteguese and Spanish explorers. I don't know what the percentage of followers for each by population was before WWII though.

[Nodachi]

America is not guilty of cultural imperialism (at least not in this century). What is being observed is a blending of cultures brought about by the advent of high speed communication.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

A blending of cultures... where the predominant culture is the mainstream American one.

If it doesn't make sense, well heck. As long as my point gets across I don't matter if I'm writing something in English, then encrypt it using an alphanumeric key, translate what I've got into Chinese, encrypt that using another alphanumeric key, translate it into Indonesian and then back into English.

If THAT doesn't make sense, well heck. As long as my point gets across...

[Nodachi]

A blending of cultures... where the predominant culture is the mainstream American one.



That is actually true, but only because American culture is a mix of many different cultures and the blending of cultures is what is spreading around the world.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

The MAINSTREAM American culture. And it doesn't add much these days, it just changes internally with little external influences.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Won't be posting anymore for a while... pro'lly tomorrow... spent the entire day on the forums... gotta go work on Capship 0.81

[dogscoff]

I don't know what parents in Hollywood complain about.




Everyone in Hollywood is insanely happy all the time. They all have great teeth and big cars and no-one os ever sad. Or so I'm told.



American business doesn't go into other countries to spread our culture. They go there because they see an opportuity to make money selling things to people in those countries that want to buy them.




But that is american culture. I'm not saying that capitalism is an exclusively american thing, or that the US even invented it, but the form of excessive, aggressive, all-absorbing, all-homogenising, lowest-common-denominator, ignorance-worshipping capitalism that is currently melting the population of the entire universe into a gigantic, brainless, MTV-cloned consumer-pool for rampant, soulless multinationals was very much born in the US in the latter half of the last century. I guess it's difficult for Americans to appreciate just how invasive this influence feels to everyone else. For example, this year I've seen the first few Humvees in this country, and it sickens me that people here are actually becoming ignorant enough to think these hulking abominations are actually desirable on our overpopulated little island with its narrow old streets and city centres.



If your complaint is that you don't like people in your country buying American products, then don't buy American products.




I don't (Shrapnel products excluded). Doesn't seem to be making a difference so far.

[Will]

Just a vain attempt to bring some levity to the discussion:

geoschmo said:
I don't know what parents in Hollywood complain about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


They complain about how hard it is to find a good supply of Vicodin. You would be doping up, too, if the whole world was blaming you for things. Even if they bought everything from you willingly, and continue to do so even after complaining http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And re: American culture, to that I say: What American culture? We don't have any. We just take from everybody else's, mix together haphazardly, put it in lots of packaging, and call it "our culture". If anything, the only thing that you could call "American Culture" is our somewhat unique practice of selling anything and everything to whomever wants it, as long as you pay real money for it. And even then, I'm pretty sure that's just a European practice taken to the utmost extreme.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

But that is american culture. I'm not saying that capitalism is an exclusively american thing, or that the US even invented it, but the form of excessive, aggressive, all-absorbing, all-homogenising, lowest-common-denominator, ignorance-worshipping capitalism that is currently melting the population of the entire universe into a gigantic, brainless, MTV-cloned consumer-pool for rampant, soulless multinationals was very much born in the US in the latter half of the last century. I guess it's difficult for Americans to appreciate just how invasive this influence feels to everyone else. For example, this year I've seen the first few Humvees in this country, and it sickens me that people here are actually becoming ignorant enough to think these hulking abominations are actually desirable on our overpopulated little island with its narrow old streets and city centres.



Thnx Dogscoff... thats exactly my point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Slynky]

StrategiaInUltima said:


But that is american culture. I'm not saying that capitalism is an exclusively american thing, or that the US even invented it, but the form of excessive, aggressive, all-absorbing, all-homogenising, lowest-common-denominator, ignorance-worshipping capitalism that is currently melting the population of the entire universe into a gigantic, brainless, MTV-cloned consumer-pool for rampant, soulless multinationals was very much born in the US in the latter half of the last century. I guess it's difficult for Americans to appreciate just how invasive this influence feels to everyone else. For example, this year I've seen the first few Humvees in this country, and it sickens me that people here are actually becoming ignorant enough to think these hulking abominations are actually desirable on our overpopulated little island with its narrow old streets and city centres.



Thnx Dogscoff... thats exactly my point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Then go complain to the people that purchased them and quit blaming America for an "arm-twisting" that didn't occur. In order for something to sell, there needs to be a market. (I shake my head everytime I see one, too!)

[TerranC]

Slynky said:
Then go complain to the people that purchased them and quit blaming America for an "arm-twisting" that didn't occur. In order for something to sell, there needs to be a market. (I shake my head everytime I see one, too!)



Our point exactly.

[dogscoff]

And even then, I'm pretty sure that's just a European practice taken to the utmost extreme.




Thankyou, that actually sums up my attitudes to American culture better than my own last post did. It seems that American culture is all about pushing evrything to its furthest possible extreme. Cars are good. Therefore, it must be good for everyone to have two cars each, and for each one to be the size and weight of an armoured personnel carrier. You like burgers? Well, here's a burger the size of your head- buy one get another free. Guys like boobs, right? Well then girls, go out and get surgery so your tits look like a couple of badly parked Volkswagen Beetles.

Moderation is gradually being erased, replaced by a culture of excession. This is a bad thing, in terms of personal health, public life and global resources. What's more, it's extremely hard to resist this kind of excession because it is so... well... excessive. By definition it has to be bigger, heavier, louder and richer and will out-compete and utterly destroy (or at least absorb, bastardise, soil, repackage and sell on) any more moderate alternative that stands in its way. It's a plague, it's the Borg. This is what the usa has brought to global culturem and this is why there is now this backlash (moderate backlash, like mine, and extreme backlash, like Al-Qaeda) against US culture.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Moderation in all things are some pretty good words to live by.

However, if someone sells you something and you buy it, you are responcible for the use to which you put it.

[dogscoff]

Then go complain to the people that purchased them and quit blaming America for an "arm-twisting" that didn't occur. In order for something to sell, there needs to be a market. (I shake my head everytime I see one, too!)




Ah yes, market forces. The sacred democracy of the wallet. Unfortunately, it's all hogsh!t. A company with enough money can generate any demand it wants out of thin air- it's called marketing. I mean seriously, what possible reason could there be for anyone (anyone not planning to invade something, anyway) to actually want a Humvee other than for image? It serves no other purpose that couldn't be served cheaper, cleaner and more efficiently by a smaller vehicle. It's a false demand, resulting from the culture of excession in my previous post.

[Ragnarok-X]

Slightly OT, but did someone watch "SuperSize ME" ? I think it pretty much fits the topic. In my opinion the USA are trying to force their way of life onto everyone else, weiter it be by force or without. Just recently i read that america has deposit 180 !!! nuclear weapons over military bases in germany, france, spain and great brittain. The reason for this is because in a condition of war, those missiles can reach targets in europe faster than when launched from north-america. Just imagine this...now, about their various wars against islamic countries...now that korea announced they have nuclear weapons, how will bush react to this ? Didnt he promised he would make america "safe" and keep the people "safe" ? All i can is that both bush, the administration and EVERYONE who voted for bush in the last election of a stupid **** and should care for this children or whatever may come after him.

A lot of people will agree with me, weither they openly say so or dont.

[geoschmo]

It's not a plague Dogscoff. I might be convinced that it's an addiction, but it's not a disease. It's not the Borg. People sucumbing to rampant consumerism aren't losing their free will. They aren't being made to do anything they don't want to do. I won't argue it's not healthy, but I won't try and complain that it's McDonalds fault I'm so overweight either. I've eaten a lot of cheeseburgers in my life time. And I can honestly say that in every case the hand stuffing it in my face was attached to my own arm.

Where is your nations responsibility in this discussion? Why are you here protesting the evils of American greed and our prosteltyzing form of consumer excess, instead of preaching to your own countrymen for taking part in the very activities which are the real cause of you afflictions. Supply follows demand D, not the other way around.

It's nothing person though D. I'll be the first to admit that Americans are just as bad at this sort of attitude of victimization. We meddle in Latin American political affairs telling ourselves we are trying to stop the flow of drugs into our country when the flow would stop if we simply stopped snorting the drugs in the first place. And of course, the whole Middle East would be nothing to us but a bunch of sand if we didn't need the oil to satisfy our own excesive desires.

But really, how would you take it if we started complaining that the reason we drive SUV's is because the Arab countries keep supplying us with so much cheap gasoline? The argument doesn't really work does it?

[Jack Simth]

TerranC said:

Though I don't know if Indonesia was islamic in WWII. Back then, we still controlled it, and we were christian. I think that most of the population there was christian as well (like in the Phillippines) and that it only became an Islamic country after they had (rightfully, I think) won their independence.



Mr. Dutchman, read what you have typed there once more, very carefully, word per word, and see if it makes sense.



StrategiaInUltima said:
If it doesn't make sense, well heck. As long as my point gets across I don't matter if I'm writing something in English, then encrypt it using an alphanumeric key, translate what I've got into Chinese, encrypt that using another alphanumeric key, translate it into Indonesian and then back into English.


I suspect it wasn't the language itself he was referring to, so much as the appearence of a double-standard in the post; in a thread you started about diliking America supposedly forcing it's ways on the rest of the world, mostly through big buisiness, you blithly mention an incidence of Europe forcing it's views on the rest of the world, mostly be military force.

That, and the little matter of assuming the country had exactly the same religion as it's rulers, then switched after they threw them out.

[dogscoff]

Geo, I'm not trying to take away free will. People do have the power to make their own choices about what they want, but most of the time they don't bother. And of course capitalism is only too happy to capitalise on this all-too-human laziness and desire to conform and tell people what they want. You want a humvee. You want macdonalds. You want to pay £200 for a pair of shoes that cost $2 to make. You want to pay Malboro to give you cancer.

It's all screwed up.

Finally, I would be more than happy to discuss this with my countrymen if met anyone who would actually listen. I discuss it here not because there are lots of americans here to ***** at, but because there are intelligent people here who I can have a discussion with.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Ragnarok... it's indeed bull****. The US could also simply place those missiles on nuclear subs RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GULF. They have plenty of nuke subs, so why the [censored] do they need to place ONE HUNDRED AND FRICKING EIGHTY NUKES in Europe? Are they afraid of the possible emerging of the Soviet State of France and Western Europe or something? They have NO REASON - NO REASON AT ALL - to place those nukes on OUR soil. And what if something goes wrong? Who's to blame? I can imagine the US (toto pro pars for Bush):
"The recent nuclear accident was probably the result of either a terrorist attack or negligence on the part of the Europeans that looked after the nukes. For now, we assume that US citizens were not in any way responsible for the accident, other than that they should have kept better watch over the weapons."
And I really think that son of a mother****ing ***** would actually say something like above... and I don't think Europeans are even ALLOWED NEAR those nukes. Almost NOBODY knew about the EIGHTY nukes in my country until someone published an article about it - and immediately one of my country's left-wing parties (the one I support) began openly demanding those nukes to be transferred out of Holland in parliament. Greece has already voted to remove the nukes stationed there, but it is not clear whether or not they HAVE actually been removed.

[Slynky]

Sorry if I come off upset when I hear that people of their own free will purchase stupid items (whether it be American or not). Before we got "international" with this kind of finger-pointing at "evil" America, I got just as upset when I heard (yet another) complaint from the black communities that tobacco and alcohol manufacturers target them--as if humans didn't posses a free will to refuse to buy things simply because they saw a picture of it.

So, to ANYONE, of ANY nationality who uses their money to buy something that's either stupid, over-priced, or bad for them, go look in the mirror and quit blaming others. People need to take responsibility for their choices. I used to smoke. If I get cancer later, it's my fault. I used to eat fast food / McDonalds. If I never return to a healthy state again, it's my fault.

I just get a little tired of everyone lumping in all their unhappiness about their lives into a big rotten tomato to throw at America.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I'm not just throwing rotten tomatoes at America. And I won't say something bull****ty like "Oh no, I'm also throwing their rotten nukes back to them as well" but I'm serious. I also believe that people should make their own choices (as I'm existentialist - i.e. the choices I make for myself I indirectly make for the rest of humanity too) but I'm saying that America is always actively influencing our choices - marketing, commercials, American "vanity projects" like the invasion of Iraq, etc.

[dogscoff]

So, to ANYONE, of ANY nationality who uses their money to buy something that's either stupid, over-priced, or bad for them, go look in the mirror and quit blaming others. People need to take responsibility for their choices. I used to smoke. If I get cancer later, it's my fault. I used to eat fast food / McDonalds. If I never return to a healthy state again, it's my fault.




People who get fat eating burgers and try to sue mcdonalds are losers, I agree. I think the smokers might have a point, given some of the highly addictive crap in cigarettes, but that's an aside. It's the people who suffer from these products and *don't* complain about it that cause me the greatest worry.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

And I personally do not have ANYTHING against normal American people... as long as they are able to make choices for themselves without relying in the idealistic worlds you see in commercials everyday.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Well placed Dogscoff.

[geoschmo]

Keep in mind that American influence of this level on the world stage is a historically recent thing. For much of our history we were pretty isolationist. The current generation in power grew up in an era where we were the only major nation to come through World War II basically undamaged. The cold war was our major formative influence and that taught us basically that there is right and wrong in the world, and that we were right. Nuance and subtlety wasn't really something we dealt with. We have to learn a little humility, and we have to learn a little moderation. I believe that for the most part we are decent people and are just trying to make a living the best way we know how.

These things run in cycles, and if we can manage to get through the next fotry years without wiping ourselves out or irradiating the planet I'm hopeful that things are moving in a more positive direction long term. While the threat of terrorism is real, it's not nearly as serious as many here believe. Certainly not as serious as the threat of mutual nuclear annialation that I grew up with.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Terrorism in the US is now impossible. Al Qaeda is practically beheaded and is without a firm base of operations. The US's internal and external security is so tight, that a large terrorist attack is virtually impossible.

As for the rest, very well put Geoschmo. I certainly hope that happens - though preferably not in forty years, but sooner if possible.

IMO your post is the best so far. If this discussion ends here, I hereby declare you to have "won" this discussion.

[Renegade 13]

Ok, just to clear a few things up:

- As for the nukes in European countries: Your leaders have to have accepted the nukes being there, no?? Take your frustrations up with your leaders. They are the ones who should be listening to the common people, and if the common people say no nukes, they shouldn't accept American nukes. However, you can't blame the US for wanting to have nukes all over the world; it gives them power, and everyone wants power. Convince your leaders that the people don't want the nukes, and they'll probably leave.

- Fat has been proven to be as addictive in some cases as nicotine (addictive agent in cigarettes). Therefore, the point made below about cigarettes being different than fast-food due to addictive factor is not horribly accurate. However, I think that people who used to smoke before it was known to be unhealthy....that's not so much their fault as people being fat is. I'm sorry, but I have little sympathy for people who are overweight due to eating lots of fast food. Like someone said, it's your own hand that's stuffing your own face. Your own choice.

- Americans are by no means the only people who practice "cultural imperialism" if there is such a thing. They are simply the most successful at it, and therefore they take the brunt of the criticism of the world. Doesn't at all mean that other countries aren't trying to do the same thing...maybe even some of your own countries?? (referring of course to the people here who are not American)

- Oil: The middle east supplies a lot of the worlds oil, granted, but here in Canada, in the tar sands of Alberta there is supposedly more oil trapped in the sands than is in most of the middle east oil reserves. Also, where I live, in British Columbia, there's huge oil reserves off the coast and actually all over the province. They simply haven't been tapped as much as the middle east has done. My point is, if the Middle East cuts the world off oil, it won't be such a horrible thing. In fact, I'd prefer it if we didn't have to rely on such an unstable part of the world for a product that most of us use in our daily lives. Be happy Americans, NAFTA forces Canada to sell you whatever oil you want to buy from us. Even though you still won't accept our beef!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Now, not all of what I have said has any bearing on this conversation, but I hope it all does relate to the central theme, or at least to the many tangents this conversation has followed.

Oh, and for those of you thinking I must be American, because I'm not blaming America for all the world's problems, think again. I'm Canadian, and yes, there is a difference http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif . A big one. Whose culture would you rather be under the influence of, American, where people are usually considered equal, at least under the law, or a culture like the Indian one, where it's perfectly alright to kill a woman simply because she 'shamed' your family? Or another similar culture?? Always remember, no matter how bad things are, they can always, always get much worse...until you're dead. Cant' get much worse than that, eh?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[dogscoff]

Terrorism in the US is now impossible.




Terrorism is never impossible- that's one of the reasons all the "security" measures (patriot act et al) now in place are so ridiculous and frightening.

That's not to say we - or you, america- should hide under our/your bedclothes and not come out. Terrorism may not be impossible, but it is still rare, despite what Bush and Blair would have you believe. Save your fear for something with a more significant statistical chance of killing you, like a bizarre laundry-realted accident or being savaged by an enraged giant mutant squirrel or being drafted into the armed forces and sent to the middle east.

Besides, making you live in terror is what terrorsts want you to do. And getting us to give up our cherished freedoms in the name of supposed security is something else they would regard as a victory as well.

[Renegade 13]

StrategiaInUltima said:
Terrorism in the US is now impossible. Al Qaeda is practically beheaded and is without a firm base of operations. The US's internal and external security is so tight, that a large terrorist attack is virtually impossible.




I'm sorry, but large scale terrorism is not impossible. Perhaps large scale Islamic terrorism is impossible, but if I, a Canadian citizen, went down to the US with the purpose of performing terrorist acts, I would have no trouble at all doing it. Why? Because I look like an American. No one could distinguish me from an American visually, so they wouldn't suspect me. How would I do my terrorist acts? Not in the way that the Islamic terrorists flew a plane into a building which was, to be honest, very inefficient with how they did it. Oh yeah, and if I was a terrorist, I can almost guarantee you that you would not catch me for a long time. You'll see why as I explain what a 'smart' terrorist would do:

What would my terrorist activities be?? First, I would travel to California in the summer. No, not for a vacation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif What would my terrorist tools be? One thing, a box of matches. I would go around to all the forests and start lighting fires. Soon, the entire state would be ablaze. What's that? That's not terrorism?? I beg to differ. I would cause massive destruction, and cost the US feds and state gov't's many millions to rebuild, and put out the fires. Call it economic terrorism.

Next, I would do something else, like blow a few bridges up. Major ones, and trust me, it wouldn't be hard. Build your own explosives, and down goes the bridge. Stop that after a few bridges. Can't let them see a pattern.

You see, there's many ways for large-scale terrorist attacks that don't require dying, or hijacking aircraft. All it takes is a few smart people to figure out a smart way to cause massive damage. There's also a good reason why the 9/11 terrorists chose to do what they did; they wanted to kill Americans, due to an overwhelming hatred. A smart terrorist wouldn't concentrate his efforts on killing people, he'd concentrate on killing the economy. And that my friends, would end up causing a lot more damage than a couple of collapsed buildings, and a few thousand people dead.

Scary isn't it what kind of terrorist ideas a 17 year old kid can come up with. Imagine if a serious terrorist thought of this, and actually intended to do it? What havoc could he cause?

[Renegade 13]

As a matter of fact, the terrorists are succeeding right now. I dont' see how the American gov't doesn't see that they are playing into the hands of the terrorists right now. All their 'security' is costing untold billions of dollars. Economic terrorism, at it's best. Eventually, the US will hit the point of no return, and collapse economically.

[geoschmo]

StrategiaInUltima said:
Terrorism in the US is now impossible. Al Qaeda is practically beheaded and is without a firm base of operations. The US's internal and external security is so tight, that a large terrorist attack is virtually impossible.

Impossible? I wouldn't go that far? Ever heard of the Alfred P. Murrow Federal building in Oklahoma City? Terrorism doesn't require an active, and well funded organization. A highly motivated individual acting alone, or in a small independant cell can do a lot of damage. My point wasn't that terrorism can't hurt us. Ironically my chances as an individual beign killed by terrorists is, though infinitesimally small, are greater than the risk of being killed by the soviet union ever were, short of an all out nuclear exchange of course. But the terrorist capabilty to cause serious damage to America as a whole is much smaller. Even if the worst case scenario were to happen and they took out a major city with a nuke or something, we would survive as a nation.

[dogscoff]

I think the most effective act of terrorism you could commit against the USA would be to knock out the TV networks. It would be an almost impossbly big task, granted, but imagine the results. Quite apart from the trillion-dollar hole in the economy where all that advertising and spending used to be, the morale and societal imapcts would be massive.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

OK, OK, I withdraw my statement http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I was wrong...

[dogscoff]

OK, OK, I withdraw my statement I was wrong...


No need to withdraw your statement just because some ppl have a differnt opinion. Maybe you're right and everyone else is wrong. No-one really knows.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Large-scale (I won't say "Islamic" here because... well, I'll explain below) terrorism is largely impossible in the US. Terrorists ususally aren't that clear-headed.

The reason I wont type "Islamic" above is because that would be severe religious discrimination. I personally know several Muslims, and they're all very nice people, also firmly opposed to Al-Qaeda. In fact, most of the Islamic world (here at least) firmly opposes terrorism. And then why would I type "Islamic terrorism" when it's only a small part of the Islamic world that commits these atrocious acts?

[Will]

dogscoff said:Everyone in Hollywood is insanely happy all the time. They all have great teeth and big cars and no-one os ever sad. Or so I'm told.


Pssh. I think somebody also forgot to tell you that Hollywood is the ***-crack of Los Angeles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Everything is a facade, and if you go beyond the main roads, you can see it for the slum it really is. Now the Valley on the other hand... or more accurately, vallies, there's a lot of them... Those people are the ones with the great teeth, big cars, and are never sad. They usually work in Hollywood, and they're almost always stoned. Which explains the never sad bit.

And as for nukes in other countries... look at it this way. Yes, technically it would be just as easy to put all of them on subs, and then the missile force would be a lot more mobile. But by having missiles at a fixed land location, it is more guaranteed that the missile will be there and ready the instant it is needed. But there's another reason. The countries hosting the missiles WANT them to be there. Think about it: some neighbor is giving you problems, all you have to do is mention that the US gave you THE BOMB. That's a pretty powerful bargaining tool. So in the end, it ends up being a trade. The US gets a guaranteed launch point, the host country gets better diplomatic relations and the ability to trot out that little fact in any negotiations.

And that basically sums up everything in this thread. If something exists, there's probably an American who will try to sell it. But, as was already said, you shouldn't get pissed off at the US for selling, you need to get pissed off at the people who are buying it. Basic economics, if there is no demand, supply means diddly. People all over the world buy into "American excess" because THEY WANT TO. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I personally abhor most of it, and prefer to live simply. But don't blanket-blame an entire country for what amounts to the vices of everyone else.

[Renegade 13]

StrategiaInUltima said:
Large-scale (I won't say "Islamic" here because... well, I'll explain below) terrorism is largely impossible in the US. Terrorists ususally aren't that clear-headed.

The reason I wont type "Islamic" above is because that would be severe religious discrimination. I personally know several Muslims, and they're all very nice people, also firmly opposed to Al-Qaeda. In fact, most of the Islamic world (here at least) firmly opposes terrorism. And then why would I type "Islamic terrorism" when it's only a small part of the Islamic world that commits these atrocious acts?



When you talk about Ireland, and the fighting that goes on there, do you not say "the Catholics fighting the Protestants"? Is that also severe religious discrimination? I highly doubt that all Catholics and Protestants are fighting, no?

It is not severe religious discrimination to say "Islamic terrorists" because it is simply a distinguishing identifier. It is no worse than saying "that white serial killer". If you say "that white serial killer" are you discriminating against all white people? I think not. That's not discrimination, it's just an identifier, so people know what you're talking about.

[TerranC]

The countries hosting the missiles WANT them to be there. Think about it: some neighbor is giving you problems, all you have to do is mention that the US gave you THE BOMB. That's a pretty powerful bargaining tool. So in the end, it ends up being a trade. The US gets a guaranteed launch point, the host country gets better diplomatic relations and the ability to trot out that little fact in any negotiations.



I was under the impression that US nukes deployed to foreign bases stay in the foreign US bases themselves, which are sovereign US territory unless otherwise dictated, which means that the nukes are under total US control and are not "given" to their host countries.

And a nuke does not mean better diplomatic relations and the ability to trot out that "little fact" in any negotiations; it only gives the other party (or parties) incentive to gain equal nuclear footing, or even achieve nuclear "superiority", which just screws up everything. Cuba was awarded nukes because the soviets wanted to offset american nukes in Turkey; The UK and France developed their own nukes in responce to Soviet and perhaps American ones; Pakistan developed nukes in order to offset India's military might, which in turn developed nukes itself; China developed nukes in order to tell the soviets off in the Sino-Soviet split, and support for nukes is growing if not revitalized in South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan, because of NK's nukes. Need I say more?


I personally abhor most of it, and prefer to live simply. But don't blanket-blame an entire country for what amounts to the vices of everyone else.



Hear, hear.

[TerranC]

StrategiaInUltima said:
The reason I wont type "Islamic" is because that would be severe religious discrimination.



Islamic terrorism is as such because Islamic terrorists use Islam as "justification" to launch vicious attacks on other muslims and people of the book such as Christians and Jews who are all deemed "infidels" through their "true and clear" view of Islam.

Even Moslems themselves refer Al-Zarqawi and others as islamic terrorists - are they then discriminating against their own religion?

[tesco samoa]

tesco goes to the microwave and puts some popcorn in
sets it at 2 minutes high.

beep beep

grabs some beers and the popcorn

sits down.

opens the bag and munch munch...

[TerranC]

tesco samoa said:
stuff about popcorn



Tesco, pass me some too. I want to throw some at Dogscoff every time he posts something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[AMF]

Renegade 13 said:
When you talk about Ireland, and the fighting that goes on there, do you not say "the Catholics fighting the Protestants"? Is that also severe religious discrimination? I highly doubt that all Catholics and Protestants are fighting, no?

It is not severe religious discrimination to say "Islamic terrorists" because it is simply a distinguishing identifier. It is no worse than saying "that white serial killer". If you say "that white serial killer" are you discriminating against all white people? I think not. That's not discrimination, it's just an identifier, so people know what you're talking about.



The difference lies in the word "the" - iEnglish, "the" identifies a specific noun (the white serial killer") whereas, if left off, applies to ALL of that class of subjects. Hence, I would think that, grammatically speaking, equating "the white serial killer" with "the islamic terrorists" is fine. But by saying "islamic terrorist" you are essentially saying ALL muslims are terorrists.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Not semantically true, but I think it is true that that is what many people hear.

[Renegade 13]

Alarikf, it all depends on context.

[Ragnarok-X]

dogscoff said:


People who get fat eating burgers and try to sue mcdonalds are losers, I agree. I think the smokers might have a point, given some of the highly addictive crap in cigarettes, but that's an aside. It's the people who suffer from these products and *don't* complain about it that cause me the greatest worry.




Your point is only partly right. It has been scientificly -PROVEN- that certain integrints within mcdonalds, burgerking and fast food products in general are indeed addictive as well. Just watch the movie i mentioned, SuperSize Me, afterwards you will know a few things you didnt want to. Whats happening is amazing, on the entire line unbelieveable.

[Ragnarok-X]

Renegade 13 said:
Ok, just to clear a few things up:

- As for the nukes in European countries: Your leaders have to have accepted the nukes being there, no?? Take your frustrations up with your leaders. They are the ones who should be listening to the common people, and if the common people say no nukes, they shouldn't accept American nukes. However, you can't blame the US for wanting to have nukes all over the world; it gives them power, and everyone wants power. Convince your leaders that the people don't want the nukes, and they'll probably leave.



No offense, but you should open your eyes. Under NO circumstances would countries with history like france and especially germany be willing to openly accept the stationing of nuclear weapons within their countries. BUT, and thats the point here, would they have denied the US request they would have to face certain consequences. When germany didnt participated in the iraq war, most german companies were sanktioned and didnt received ANY official orders/tasks both in iraq and afganistan. Up to NOW, it is inofficialy known that german companies are overseen when choosing which companies get which order. And THIS indeed is cultural imperalism. I dont get your point...
Over the last month i have read so many articles its hardly to believe. I think europens definitly get to know more than americans or canadians or texans or whatever. Would you know what i do, i would be sure you would agree on the entire line with me. America is wrong, american people, the gouverment, the president, their are all wrong and need to be taken care off. I dont know how, but something must happen in the near future. While im at it, i dont entirely blame the population for it, because they are somehow kept "stupid". I mainly blame the newspapers and tv and stuff for not spreading information correctly. Then again, i fully blame the gouverment and whoever helped bringing bush into the presidents position.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

"Islamic terrorism" and the "justification" of it are both bull****. I've talked with a Muslim about it once, and he says that those terrorists are NOT "good Muslims", just like a Christian killer is not a "good Christian". The Koran says that it is a sin to kill people, like the bible does, and the person I talked with about it said that those terrorists will most likely end up in Hell.

To say that the Islamic terrorism is justified by the Koran is total nonsense. Those who claim it isn't need to talk to a Muslim about it once.

[Fyron]

Holy scriptures can be used by those looking to twist them as justification for anything... It is all a matter of interpretation and which parts you stress over the others.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Yes... but according to most of those living by the Koran the people that use it to justify blowing themselves up with lots of other people around misinterpret the Koran and are therefore (not because of the misinterpretation, because of the acts that follow it) are sinners, doomed to Hell.

[Yith_Saulkar]

StrategiaInUltima said:
And I do NOT have any objections to people wearing Levi's... it's their choice. But it's the way that the US is promoting itself everywhere it can, patting itself on the back for something that they had no right or reason to do, that did not go so very well, and that is still not exactly finished.



Your confusing "America" with "American Business".
We import Japanese cars by the bucketloads... We buy more foregin cars than domestic I believe. Does that mean the Japanese are trying to push thier "cultural imperialism" on us? No, it is simply international trade and business men trying to make a buck.

Iraq is a total mess. BUT it is not America patting itself on the back. People everywhere in the US still protest our actions there... it is the Bush administration doing the patting. You should see/hear/read the heated debates between the Republicans and the Democrats over the war. Just so happens the Bush supporters are in control of the government right now. Republicans hold majority in both the house and senate so Bush has little opposition to his agenda. So the "American Policy" transmitted to the world is the "Republican/Bush American Policy".

America has the same problem as an overplayed comercial. You get sick of seeing it all the time and end up hateing it.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

[06:07:45-PM] puke: any chance of "cultural imperialism" like in IG2, where your trade income could be influenced by how much of your culture has spread to influence other empires?



Excerpt from chat transcript. Cultural imperialism exists. QED.

[Yith_Saulkar]

StrategiaInUltima said:


[06:07:45-PM] puke: any chance of "cultural imperialism" like in IG2, where your trade income could be influenced by how much of your culture has spread to influence other empires?



Excerpt from chat transcript. Cultural imperialism exists. QED.



If this is the case than the US is the one being assaulted by "Cultural Imperialism". We IMPORT way more product than we EXPORT. Look at the "made in" stamps on the products you buy. Guarantee you US made products are few and far between. Your unknowingly culturaly assailed by the Chiniese. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Alneyan]

"If you've done six impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe?"



Excerpt from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Milliways, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe exists. QED.

Feel free to replace "Restaurant at the End of the Universe" with "Earth creatures with seventeen eyes, sapience, and sixty pink wings", or anything that strikes your fancy. That, and IG2 happens to be in a different setting than real life.

And if you want to nitpick, Puke wrote "cultural imperialism"; the " sign seems to mean Puke considered the phrase as being incorrect. The other uses of this sign do not seem to apply here: it is not a quotation, or spoken speech, or a word of foreign origin, or the name of a book/movie, or a way to delimit propositions.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

The other uses of this sign do not seem to apply here: it is not a quotation, or spoken speech, or a word of foreign origin, or the name of a book/movie, or a way to delimit propositions.



Erm... could you translate that please?

[Alneyan]

I cannot; I am supposed to be obscure and all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Pitiful attempts at levity aside, I made the list of all usual uses of the " sign to support my claim about why Puke used them. I cannot be sure of why he did it of course, since I am not him. I think.

Since "cultural imperialism" was not a quotation of some kind or another, I made my claim that Puke considered the phrase as not being wholly accurate or adequate. Another such example would be "Why aren't your 'friends" helping you out?", if the speaker considers that you are wrong to call them friends.

*Grumbles* Why do I have the feeling the explanation is even more obtuse than my previous post? Next time, remind me to leave grammar aside.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

'Tis OK. Excellent explanation

[Renegade 13]

Ragnarok-X said:
No offense, but you should open your eyes. Under NO circumstances would countries with history like france and especially germany be willing to openly accept the stationing of nuclear weapons within their countries. BUT, and thats the point here, would they have denied the US request they would have to face certain consequences. When germany didnt participated in the iraq war, most german companies were sanktioned and didnt received ANY official orders/tasks both in iraq and afganistan. Up to NOW, it is inofficialy known that german companies are overseen when choosing which companies get which order. And THIS indeed is cultural imperalism. I dont get your point...
Over the last month i have read so many articles its hardly to believe. I think europens definitly get to know more than americans or canadians or texans or whatever. Would you know what i do, i would be sure you would agree on the entire line with me. America is wrong, american people, the gouverment, the president, their are all wrong and need to be taken care off. I dont know how, but something must happen in the near future. While im at it, i dont entirely blame the population for it, because they are somehow kept "stupid". I mainly blame the newspapers and tv and stuff for not spreading information correctly. Then again, i fully blame the gouverment and whoever helped bringing bush into the presidents position.



It is most certain the Germany and France etc would not dare to refuse the stationing of American missiles in their countries. Though I'm not exactly certain why, since the US in turn could only impose economic sanctions in return. Granted, those do hurt, a lot. I should know. The product my parents produce is currently "prohibited" from entering the US, so I know how important sanctions are first hand! I also am aware that the US only gave contracts for "rebuilding" Iraq and Afghanistan to those who supported their war. Yes, I would agree that that is a form of "cultural imperialism", if there is such a thing. America as a whole may be "wrong" as you say, but the people are not all wrong. They are simply ignorant. Now, the people who helped elect Bush, they are definitely "wrong" in my opinion. Then again, would Kerry have been any better?? In some ways yes, in others no. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, is that it? It seems like it to me. The government, the leaders, yes they are wrong. In some important ways at least.

To go back to the German companies being "overlooked" in favor of companies who were based in a country that supported Bush's war. Canada was one of the countries who did NOT support the Iraq war the US waged. We too have been the victim of the same discrimination against our fully qualified companies. I don't believe that I am ignorant, which you seemed to be implying. I may not be as fully informed as you are, I agree that that is completely possible. But I do my best with the information that I have at my disposal.

I have intended no offense. All I was doing is trying to explain things as I see them. This conversation we're having is the exact reason why I posted, so that I could be informed of other viewpoints, and learn new things. I thank you for enlightening me, and I hope that I may have managed in some small way to help you to learn something as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Thermodyne]

I have just one thing to say on this. The fact that much of the world has the right to chose their way of life at all, is do in large part to the actions of the United States. How soon the ungrateful will forget.

[TerranC]

No offense, but you should open your eyes. Under NO circumstances would countries with history like france and especially germany be willing to openly accept the stationing of nuclear weapons within their countries.



France has nukes of its own; Germany doesn't need to host any nukes if it does currently since US bases in Italy can more than accomodate them. Both countries don't need to station US nukes, or at least not anymore. If it wasn't for the vehement opposement of German politicians, bases in Germany would quickly be closed and US service personnel would be sent home or somewhere else where they are needed like Turkey or the Persian Gulf.


BUT, and thats the point here, would they have denied the US request they would have to face certain consequences. When germany didnt participated in the iraq war, most german companies were sanktioned and didnt received ANY official orders/tasks both in iraq and afganistan. Up to NOW, it is inofficialy known that german companies are overseen when choosing which companies get which order. And THIS indeed is cultural imperalism. I dont get your point...



Of course that's cultural imperialism. It doesn't matter that companies of 48 nations from all five continents were eligible to recieve contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq, ranging from the UK to South Korea to Japan to the Netherlands to Poland to the Ukraine and many more, because their respective nations gave direct or indirect support (and some not even troops) to the Coalition war effort, as long as Russian, German, French, and Canadian companies were never even considered even after their respective governments chose not to get themselves involved with Iraq in any way possible, that just shows the blatant pervasiveness of US cultural dominance that the Americans seek to diffuse around the world!

Edit: Btw, you must have missed this.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/01/13/americas.summit/index.html


Over the last month i have read so many articles its hardly to believe. I think europens definitly get to know more than americans or canadians or texans or whatever.



Of course, I mean, those european media outlets get their news not just from Reuters but from Associated Press too! Just like every other media outlet in the world.


Would you know what i do, i would be sure you would agree on the entire line with me. America is wrong, american people, the gouverment, the president, their are all wrong and need to be taken care off.



And this is a sure sign that europeans such as yourself know a lot more about the world than the rest of us.


I dont know how, but something must happen in the near future. While im at it, i dont entirely blame the population for it, because they are somehow kept "stupid". I mainly blame the newspapers and tv and stuff for not spreading information correctly. Then again, i fully blame the gouverment and whoever helped bringing bush into the presidents position.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Nodachi]

I've always found it interesting that with all the money the US spends overseas (look at our trade deficits) it seems to be one of the most hated countries of the world.

Earlier in the thread someone (I forget who) pointed out that the US invaded Iraq without the UN's consent. I would like to point out two things concerning that; #1 - The US was just enforcing an already existing UN resolution, and #2 - The US (or any other sovereign nation) does not need the UN's consent to do anything. The UN is just another example of a corupt bureaucracy that is more concerned with maintaining and increasing it's own power than doing the job it was created for.

[Renegade 13]

TerranC said:
Edit: Btw, you must have missed this.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/01/13/americas.summit/index.html




I stand corrected. However, the right to bid on a contract doesn't necessarily mean that the aforementioned bid will be considered, does it? Pure political posturing. (The Triple P http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif )

[Suicide Junkie]

Perhaps better PR would help.

All you hear the US doing overseas is bombing countries into the ground...

[Atrocities]

Suicide Junkie said:
Perhaps better PR would help.

All you hear the US doing overseas is bombing countries into the ground...



Because that is all the media wishes to report as it drives up views and or readers. Think bigger, don't let the media dictate your opinion. Ya the media would love nothing better than to convince the world that all the US military is out to do is bomb little helpless people back into the stone age. Give me a f***ing break.

Don't buy into the propaganda. Just think for yourselves for a God damn change and ask yourselves some questions. Like why would the US bomb said country into the ground.... Hummm could it be because there is a larger goal or issue at stake? I don't know and I really don't want to speculate. All I know is that we are not doing this simply to do it as the world media has seemed to decree. In fact who the hell are these SOB's that they can tell you and I what to think and what we should believe? They are nothing more than rich SOB's out to make themselves richer off of our interest in whats going on. They cast the US in a bad light and feed the fires of resentment not over fair and accurate news, but over the all mighty green back, deutch mark, frank, rupple, pound, Loonie, or whatever the hell your currancy is. They are telling us what they think we should know in such a way as to stir the fricking pot. The truth died long ago and with it, any resemblence of real news. Hell if it were Bill Clinton doing this the UN would be selling seats like it was major sporting event. "Come one come all, come get rich quick off the scams we running now." The world media would be casting the insurgance in Iraq as the blood thristy criminals they really are and not has the heroic freedom fighters that they are NOT.

I shudder to think of Bill Clinton as SG of the UN.. OMFG NO!!!! And his slevok wife as the President of the USA.. ... No Way In Hell that should ever be allowed to happen. My god the USA would become a puppet nation to the UN.

[Atrocities]

Oh ya, just for the record, I know that if the crap really came down, our friends the Canadians, Mexicans, and even a few over seas would stand with us. We might bicker back and fourth about this right now, but in 20 years, 50 years, or even a 100 years from now NONE of this will matter. So why waste your time debating it now?

Trust me it won't change a thing, and all it will do is tick a lot of people off at one another that otherwise wouldn't be mad at each other. I say take your opinions and hard line attitudes on over to PBW and hash em out over a nice game of SEIV. Hell play as countries, winner take all.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Maybe everyone here needs to take a break? This is getting a little too heated.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I *can't* PBW.

[massmanfun]

How soon all the Europeans forget that they always call on "The Good Old USA" when they need something dirty done.
Why didn't the EU take care of the genocide that happened in Bosnia before the US got involved?

Now I'm not saying I agree with the current administration's actions (Bush WASN'T my choice) but don't lump all of America in one box and mark it EEEVIL!
There are power hungry leaders in every country on Earth.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I know... but in the US it is far, far more evident than in any ohter country. I agree that Bosnia was a black eye for Europe, but I think Iraq was a black eye for the US.

However, IMO Afghanistan was a feather in the US's cap. We've never heard any important news from there in over a year. For as far as I know, Afghanistan is now a peaceful, free country. But to say there is an "Axis of Evil"... is a very big black eye for the US.

(So... someone else here read Catch-22?)

[Nodachi]

massmanfun said:
There are power hungry leaders in every country on Earth.

StrategiaInUltima responded:
I know... but in the US it is far, far more evident than in any ohter country.



Really? Ever hear of North Korea?

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

More evident WORLDWIDE. So far, North Korea hasn't been that much of a worldwide influence. The US HAS. Now, I say again, I have nothing against American people in general; but it is the American government and their policy that I detest.

As said before, by someone:
In under four years' time Bush's term will have ended, and then the world can celebrate.

[TerranC]

StrategiaInUltima said:
So far, North Korea hasn't been that much of a worldwide influence.



That's because Nork nukes have a limited range. But there are about 2 billion people and some influential countries who are directly or indirectly affected by the North Korean Crisis. If North Korean nukes could reach Europe, you wouldn't be saying that.

[Nodachi]

Right now North Korea's missiles have an estimated range of 3600 miles. That is why China is pushing so hard for them to discontinue their nuke program.

Speaking of China, they are the next potential threat. If they were to switch their production over to a war footing it would make the US's WWII war machine look like kids playing with blocks. It really is just a matter of time before China starts trying to expand. When they do none of their neighbors will be able to stand up to them in a conventional war. If the US steps in to stop them it will (yet again) be the bad guy in the eyes of the world sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong. Yet if the US does nothing the world will cry foul that the US is 'allowing' China to act aggressively.
We catch Hell either way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[dogscoff]

I have just one thing to say on this. The fact that much of the world has the right to chose their way of life at all, is do in large part to the actions of the United States. How soon the ungrateful will forget.




Seems to me the America of the 1940s bears very little resemblance to the america of today. I mean, no-one expects the Germany of today to be the same as it was 65 years ago.



I've always found it interesting that with all the money the US spends overseas (look at our trade deficits) it seems to be one of the most hated countries of the world.




Woo. Money. Yeah. That's OK then.



We've never heard any important news from {afghanistan} in over a year. For as far as I know, Afghanistan is now a peaceful, free country.




Or the exact opposite. Ah, the short attention span of the media...

[EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro]

I should have known this was a Euro-Whiner type of topic. America attacks countries because because we can. And sometimes doing things the nice way (diplomatically) is slow and chock full of Euro-self intrest that it's sick. Iraq may or may not have been a mistake. I could not imagine how many more years the Hussain family would have ruled Iraq. I'm just mad that my president had to lie to me about going in. I'm also mad that his buddies are making alot of money off of it too. And I must confess that I am really enjoying all the European countries trying to negotiate the end to Iran's nuclear program..all to no avail. And when that diplomacy fails who do you think their gonna call? The U.N.? Don't even bother. China and Russia will veto any military intervention there. What are those poor peaceful and concerned European countries gonna do? We practically had to pull all of the E.U. (screaming and crying) just to help out in Kosovo! And in the end they caught a French General calling Serbia on his cell with that nights targets! Wow, what great friends.
As for U.S. nuclear warheads in France? Bull! France is not a member of NATO and they have enough of a nuclear deterrent anyway. You may have warheads in your country but thats because you are a member of NATO. Just like their is a RAF training detachment in Nebraska. And if you remember, the U.S. had recalled the Pershing II delivery vehicles and destroyed them in full view of Russian spy satellites. The Tomahawk GLCM's were recalled and re-fitted for aerial and naval launch platforms. And I do recall we are destroying our warhead stockpiles, it takes time you know. If we were true Imperialists, you wouldn't even have a government to complain too. You would be called "Airstrip One".
If your culture is so superior then just do what we do and market it. Let's see something coming back this way instead. I know the commercialism is annoying. It makes me really sick at Christmas time. But we're not the only ones. The asians are so into it, that I can't even understand what they are selling sometimes. Go look at engrish.com
And if you think our businesses own everything, you should see who owns our businesses. Not the Japanese or Saudis. The Dutch and British are the biggest investors in American business. The Japanese don't even come close. Except in Hawaii of course.
I just feel that this time around we are caught with a bad administration that people were too scared to dump. Don't hate us for it. We mean well. And if it's not us selling you crap, it would be someone else. Someone else who isn't your friend.

[Puke]

i was talking to a friend the other day, and we were discussing that modern day america is probably the last empire the world is likely to see, and that this is probably the end of it.

i mean, not like its going to come crashing down tomorrow, but the era of imperialism is on the wain. after we succumb to ignorance, corruption, and decadance, i dont think anyone else will ever achieve the same things. i dont think any one nation will ever dictate global policy in the same way, nor will other nations plant military bases all over the world. none others do now.

but for all that, it does not much feel like we (in the US) are living in a great empire. it feels pretty mundane, like any other place.

or does it? Japan and Hongkong are both very modern, industrial, first-world places - by any measure. citizens enjoy a high standard of living, and you can find some of the most expensive realestate in the world there. But many things are not like you would expect to find in the US. toilet water is sea water, and is not desalitinized. paper napkins in restaurants are very small and thin sheets. if you want hot water, you have to turn on your own water heater and wait for it to get hot - it does not run all the time. so its an extra 5 to 10 minutes when you want to take a shower, and you usually wont bother with the heater just to wash your hands.

In the States, i flush my fecies down the toilet with fresh drinkable water. i could take a gulp from the back tank of the toilet if i was so inclined, and it would be more sanitary than the real drinking water in most of the world. I can be a pig at a restaurant, and use as many danm napkins on my greasy fingers as i want. and I have hot water whenver i want it, a big heater is running round the clock just incase i get the urge to wash my hands at 01:00 in the morning.

supermarkets here are better stocked with produce and all manner of foodstuffs. it might not be as fresh as what you could get in a european maret, but we sure as hell have more of it. year-round, too. you can buy things in the states even outside of their growing seasons, thanks to hydroponics, genetic engineering, and farms in places with all kinds of weather. I can go to the market in the dead of winter, and buy as much citrus fruit as i can carry.

and those are just a few small examples of the luxuries that we overlook. sure, we dont have seargent pepper parrading his company up and down the square for the pomp and glory of our empire. but undeniably, this is an empire - and our great-grandchildren will probably never see another one like it.

[EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro]

We are already developing advanced Hypersonic aircraft that don't need forward bases. I bet they probably won't need pilots either. Looking forward to that new E.U. Swift Reaction force. Let's see Europe do some world policing for a change. I get a little tired of others always yelling at the U.S. for not getting involved/getting involved. I guess when your on top, all that heavenly backlight makes for a good silhouette to take shots at.

The American Empire: It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

[Renegade 13]

EvilGenius, I agree with nearly everything you have said. It simply is too easy to criticize, and not look at the way things "could have been". Most of the time, the other options the US had would have led us eventually to a worse world. I'm not saying I like wars, but sometimes wars are the only way to change corrupt, and just truely evil places. I for one am happy my country is an ally of the US. And I'm sure as hell happy that the US is around....if it wasn't I'd probably be speaking Japanese by now.

[Renegade 13]

Atrocities said:
Oh ya, just for the record, I know that if the crap really came down, our friends the Canadians, Mexicans, and even a few over seas would stand with us.



Damn right we'd be with you! Unless you were trying something like genocide....don't think I'd be with you then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif But come WWIII, I'll be there, fighting alongside Americans, you can bet on it. /threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Canada.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Canada.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Canada.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

So... you'd be fighting in WWIII. Just don't expect to survive.

Call me a ****ing idiot, but I still believe WWIII will be fought using, amongst other weapons, nukes. If worst come to worst, and we get WWIII, it will most likely involve China and N-Korea... both with nukes... on one camp, and the NATO on the other.

Global nuclear exchange.

(PM Sent to you)

[Atrocities]

MODERATOR MODE

<font color="red"> PLEASE DO NOT DILIBRATELY TRY TO AVOID THE SWARE WORD FILTER </font>

[TerranC]

StrategiaInUltima said:
Call me a ****ing idiot, but I still believe WWIII will be fought using, amongst other weapons, nukes. If worst come to worst, and we get WWIII, it will most likely involve China and N-Korea... both with nukes... on one camp, and the NATO on the other.



*Sigh* I give up. This man is lost to us. Whoever that tries to actually inform him that the cold war is over, I wish him luck.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Sorry... did not try to avoid the filter, was just a typo. Will watch it in the fututre.

The cold war ended. I know. But I still think that IF a WWIII breaks out, someone will *push the button*. Be it the USA (tho unlikely), France (also unlikely), the N-Koreans (more likely), the Iranians (dunno 'bout them), the Pakistanis (dunno 'bout them too), or some Evil Genius (nothing personal) on an island retreat, I believe that at least ONE or SOME nukes WILL BE USED IN WWIII... if WWIII ever happens, that is. Certainly hope it doesn't.

[dogscoff]

If your culture is so superior then just do what we do and market it. Let's see something coming back this way instead.




You can't market culture. That's kind of the point. You might as well try to vacuum pack a live cow. All you end up with is a cheap plastic imitation of culture.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

bear in mind that there is no money to repair decaying soviet nuclear control centers.. this could pose a problem!

During the Cold War, WWIII was already averted by the narrowest of margins when a Soviet commander refused to launch a 'counterattack' despite the fact that their own new warning system showed first one than multiple nuclear missile launches from America.

As for North Korea, it would be limited to 5-6 nukes technologically if arms controls talks had not been screwed up repeatedly by Congressional funding disuptes and the Bush Administration. (The reasons for this are involved, but it involves the availability of fuels for differing types of nuclear weapons). 5-6 nukes are terrible, but not a holocaust.

As for China, they have no real interest in messing with the US; their currency is already artificially manipulated to be favorable vis a vis the Dollar, and they obtain huge benefits from foreign investment and manufacturing. Also, they own large amounts of US government debt; they'd lose a lot of money if the US tanked. Of course, people and governments are not always rational...

I would not say that the US is marketing culture, just business methodologies and, er, marketing. Standardized hotels, despite their soullessness, are a vast improvement on the random trashheaps that came before. Fast food chains really succeed because of distribution, branding, and costs-management... The people that run these things, they're businessmen; not really 'loyal' to a concept of America. A business that is not growing is a business whose stock price is stagnant; a business whose stock price is stagnant is one that will shortly find itself a new CEO. Thus, growth into world markets is not only natural but imperative for businesses that have saturated the US markets. Is Coca Cola cultural imperialism? It doesn't really seem that way. Is McDonalds or Burger King? Not really, although they are viewed as American brands. Maybe they are culture-destroying, but they arn't a culture in and of themselves! Interestingly, Jack Daniels is not viewed as an American brand (specifically; by Europeans) to nearly the extent that Budweiser is. (as specified in the article, "Don't Buy American", by Daniel Gross).

So what is American cultural imperialism? I think this really refers to the destruction of local culture to feed the American consumer market or the profits/stock price of multinational chains.

Well, okay, I will concede that Starbucks is cultural imperialism. None can deny that.

[AMF]

TheDeadlyShoe said:
So what is American cultural imperialism? I think this really refers to the destruction of local culture to feed the American consumer market or the profits/stock price of multinational chains.




The exact same thing happens in local American neighborhoods. Ever seen WalMart? Everywhere you go now in the States, place all look pretty much the same - the lowest common denominator prevails, and that is defined as the most efficient/profitable enterprise...it's not necessarily that American culture is bad, it's that although Capitalism is the most efficient wealth generating system we as humans have ever come up with, it also carries with it some inevitable repercussions - such as a leveling of society and economics to the most profitable, and class, taste, ethics, etc become irrelevant. That which makes money becomes the norm - whether we like it or not. Capitalism is great, free trade is great, I love NAFTA....but I am concerned about the "standardization" of society

Not sure I am making my point well....but...oh well...

[Atrocities]

Walmart is evil and thanks to Bill Clinton, is the downfall of the American way of life. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif No crap, PBS ran a NOVA show about it.

Clinton, being from the home state of Walmart, agreed to the free trade with China so that Walmart could get cheap goods. This free trade agreement put Rubbermade and many other companies out of business. Hell it was what started the recession in the first place. Before Billy Boy signed that agreement, the company I worked for was doing very well in the semi conductor market. Bill signed the agreement and over night the market collapsed. I kid you not, the bottom fell out within days of them signing that agreement and still has not recovered.

NAFTA hurt us a bit, but not as bad as free trade with China has. The Chinese swamped the world market, and the US with cheap quality low priced crap that no one could compete and voila, went under. They are not kidding when they say that the Chinese controlled Bill Clinton, they did. They paid that tratorous SOB millions and helped to get him re-elected. He ruined our economy because WalMart wanted cheap goods to sell in their stores.

Its ironic now that many Americans have to go to Walmart to buy stuff because they cannot aford to go to other stores. Ironic. (Its like feeding off of your own body, eventually you die.)

[Captain Kwok]

Umm, there is no free trade agreement between the US and China...

[Atrocities]

Captain Kwok said:
Umm, there is no free trade agreement between the US and China...



Yes, yes their is Kwok, and yes situation it has caused is real and not imagined Kwok. Needless to say it functions as Free Trade. Our deficate in trade to chine is huge and growing. If not for the tarrifs placed on Chines high end TV's one or more US Television manufactures would have been run out of business.

Front Line Story (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/)

This is indicitive of a lot of businesses. More and more and more and more companies going under because of "free trade" with china.

[Captain Kwok]

China did recently gain status in the WTO, but there isn't a free trade agreement in place with China and the US.

And do you really think that any TVs are still made in the US? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Atrocities]

... Free Trade are Sinking American Living Standards. In this interview, he explains how recent international trade agreements -- particularly with China -- have



Trade with China (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/china/trade.html) complete story.


Another major source of friction between the U.S. and China has been the fairly frequent American charge that Chinese producers are guilty of dumping -- that is, producing exports and selling them in the U.S. below the price in China, or below what it costs to manufacture and ship abroad.

In recent years, U.S. companies in a variety of industrial sectors have brought trade complaints to the International Trade Commission (ITC), an independent, nonpartisan, quasi-judicial federal agency in Washington that provides trade expertise to both the legislative and executive branches of government, determines the impact of imports on U.S. industries, and directs actions against certain unfair trade practices, such as patent, trademark, and copyright infringement. The American companies have accused Chinese companies of dumping everything from shrimp to household goods like brushes and plastic bags, from tissue paper and bedroom furniture to color television sets.




If you can, watch the Front Line story on this. It is very enlightening and will explain much. Not only is the US market being hurt, but so is the Canadian economy. We are in this together whether we like it or not.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Btw, what currency does China use?

(and thnx for taking off some of the pressure in this thread.)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The Yuan, but it is artificially manipulated vis-a-vis the Dollar to keep trade more favorable for China.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

And in what methods is it manipulated? The planned economy is one thing, of course, but are there others?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Got this from googling "Chinese Currency Manipulation"; just the first hit. This is congressional testimony given by a manafucturing trade group, so it's biased, but frankly I'm no expert on the issue, anyways. The effects are rather complicated (I don't understand them, either), but to summarize, many central banks keep their currency artifically weak and strengthen the dollar because this provides considerable trade benefits; there is a large incentive for money to flow out of the strong currency and into the weak currency, encouraging the massive trade deficits that currently exist. This also results in outsourcing, as not only are wages lower in real terms, but the real value of a dollar spent in China is greater.



Chinese exchange rate policy is an important special case which spells currency manipulation in a different way. The Chinese currency has a fixed rate to the dollar but is nonconvertible on capital account. Over the past year, there has been a $25 billion trade surplus, a $45 billion net inflow of foreign direct investment—which also puts upward market pressures on the exchange rate—and over $50 billion of central bank purchases of foreign exchange. In this case, the central bank purchases offset almost three-quarters of market-generated upward pressure on the yuan from the trade surplus and the FDI inflow combined. Moreover, these official foreign exchange purchases may have been even larger except for an unfolding financial scandal involving billions of dollars of missing reserves.[2]

Based on the IMF definition, China has clearly been manipulating its currency for mercantilist purposes. The Bank of China has made protracted large scale purchases of foreign exchange—$150 billion since 1995—in order to maintain a large trade surplus as an offset to poor growth performance in the domestic economy. A direct measure of the manipulation is not possible because of the nonconvertible fixed exchange rate. There is no doubt, however, that if the central bank had not purchased $50 billion in 2001, there would have been strong upward pressures on the yuan in formal and informal markets. The bottom line is that the Chinese yuan is substantially undervalued and should certainly not be devalued as the Chinese government occasionally threatens to do.

[AMF]

Atrocities said:
Walmart is evil and thanks to Bill Clinton, is the downfall of the American way of life. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif No crap, PBS ran a NOVA show about it.




One, there is NO free trade with China. It is NORMALIZED trade through the WTO. The WTO is NOT a free trade organization, it is an organization that hopes, eventually, to be free trade promoting. It is primarily a dispute resolution and tariff reducing body. Do not confuse normalized trade with free trade. It used to be called "most favoured nation" status. "The World Trade Organization (WTO) is the only international organization dealing with the global rules of trade between nations. Its main function is to ensure that trade flows as smoothly, predictably and freely as possible."

It is one of the greatest creations of the Post war world, in that it has had a key role in making the last fifty years the most prosperous the human race has ever known - it does this by standardizing trade relations, contracts, and lowering tariffs. The theoretical ultimate goal if the WTO is universal free trade. But it ain't there yet. Today it is primarily a dispute resolution body.

Two, to "blame" Clinton for the WTO (ie: normalizing trade with China) is not only ridiculous but completely ignores the facts for the sake of you getting in another (tiresome) jab at Clinton. Aside from the fact that it was Nixon that normalized relations with China in 1972, businessmen since 1970 have been clamouring for trade with China - and they have been overwhelmingly republican. The vote in Congress to normalize trade with China was very bipartisan and, frankly, very welcomed by the republicans in Congress. Last time I checked the Congress needed to ratify treaties - check the vote and then tell me how much you hate the WTO.

Needless to say, it's ridiculous to blame Clinton for everything wrong with the world. Separation of powers is the way the government works here. By your logic, Bush should be held accountable for everything that goes wrong while he's in office - and, oh, hey, by the way, his party controls all three branches of government. Clinton had to make do with only one. So, hey, hows Bush doing?

It makes rightists seem REAL stupid when Clinton hasn't been president for over four years and they still blame him for all the worlds' ills. It speaks to a certain amount of defensiveness and unwillingness or inability to exhibit any iota of objectivity or ability to self-criticize. Or a bleeif that they're oh so victimized by the left. It must be so terrible to be the victim all the time...but it's pretty hard to keep that facade up when the entire government is controlled by the Right now. But then again, I've never met a far rightist who could ever admit they made a mistake or were wrong about anything. Plenty of moderate republicans, of which I used to be one, could do so...But they have become pretty timid nowadays. The only one who isn't a coward is McCain. Everyone else kisses De'Lay's butt.

The hell with this. I am so tired of hearing the same broken record go on and on...there is such a thing as criticism and then there is mindless parotting of party lines without regard for facts, or for willful ignorance of facts. Propoganda is the rule of the day, both sides play into it. But as individuals we can make a choice to not be part of the problem. Don't be part of the problem.

Good bye.

Oh, here's the basic WTO pitch from their website:

The World Trade Organization (WTO) is the only international organization dealing with the global rules of trade between nations. Its main function is to ensure that trade flows as smoothly, predictably and freely as possible.

The result is assurance. Consumers and producers know that they can enjoy secure supplies and greater choice of the finished products, components, raw materials and services that they use. Producers and exporters know that foreign markets will remain open to them.

The result is also a more prosperous, peaceful and accountable economic world. Virtually all decisions in the WTO are taken by consensus among all member countries and they are ratified by members' parliaments. Trade friction is channelled into the WTO's dispute settlement process where the focus is on interpreting agreements and commitments, and how to ensure that countries' trade policies conform with them. That way, the risk of disputes spilling over into political or military conflict is reduced.

By lowering trade barriers, the WTO&amp;#8217;s system also breaks down other barriers between peoples and nations.

At the heart of the system &amp;#8212; known as the multilateral trading system &amp;#8212; are the WTO&amp;#8217;s agreements, negotiated and signed by a large majority of the world&amp;#8217;s trading nations, and ratified in their parliaments. These agreements are the legal ground-rules for international commerce. Essentially, they are contracts, guaranteeing member countries important trade rights. They also bind governments to keep their trade policies within agreed limits to everybody&amp;#8217;s benefit.

The agreements were negotiated and signed by governments. But their purpose is to help producers of goods and services, exporters, and importers conduct their business.

The goal is to improve the welfare of the peoples of the member countries

[geoschmo]

You know, it's Clinton's fault Enterprise got cancelled too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (Oooo, I'm gonna regret that one, I just know it.)

[AMF]

geoschmo said:
You know, it's Clinton's fault Enterprise got cancelled too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (Oooo, I'm gonna regret that one, I just know it.)



Dude! No way. That was purely a business decision. Had nothing to do with the inherent merits of the show.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Gozra]

I have seen a couple of incorrect statements in this thread. I was in manufacturing about 5 years ago until I was laid off and About 8 years ago they closed the last factory that made TV's here in American. So there are no TV manufactures to suffer.
Some one mention that we are the only Imperial Power I beg to Differ China Just signed aggreement with several countries to establish military bases overseas to protect their trade routes.
I disagree that we are an Imperial power yet. I think we are still in our Republic Phase and if Things continue along with the federal Government being strong we won't switch over to Imperilism for another 20 years or so. (a cataylist for Empire is to have Military Units that no one cares if they are destroyed or not GEO points out a news article on the development of Robot soldiers built right here in America new Jobs for American Manufcturing anyone?)
And what could be so wrong about an American Imperium? Most people would benifit from it. Some one mentioned being able to drink from their toilet well I bet a lot of folks would be glad if America was in charge and they could drink from their american made Toilets.

[Puke]

because god knows i wouldnt want to drink out of a forign made toilet. who knows what insidious hands of lesser people might have been molesting it. dive me domestic porcilian, or give me disintary!

or something...

just kidding, of course. everyone take a deep breath, and exhale.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Gozra said:
I have seen a couple of incorrect statements in this thread. I was in manufacturing about 5 years ago until I was laid off and About 8 years ago they closed the last factory that made TV's here in American. So there are no TV manufactures to suffer.
Some one mention that we are the only Imperial Power I beg to Differ China Just signed aggreement with several countries to establish military bases overseas to protect their trade routes.
I disagree that we are an Imperial power yet. I think we are still in our Republic Phase and if Things continue along with the federal Government being strong we won't switch over to Imperilism for another 20 years or so. (a cataylist for Empire is to have Military Units that no one cares if they are destroyed or not GEO points out a news article on the development of Robot soldiers built right here in America new Jobs for American Manufcturing anyone?)
And what could be so wrong about an American Imperium? Most people would benifit from it. Some one mentioned being able to drink from their toilet well I bet a lot of folks would be glad if America was in charge and they could drink from their american made Toilets.



Geez Gozra, are you so passionate about this or something? Judging by the amount of capitals, I'd say you've got a very strong opinion about this subject...

Enterprise CANCELLED?!?!? OMFG - I'll send down a Starfleet Orbital Precision Bomber detachment to Sol III immediately!

[Gozra]

Grin. Well opinated maybe passionate nope. It is my typing style I put captials in were they are not suppose to be and I am too lazy to remove them.
And with global warming in full swing we will have plenty of water to flush toliets.
I find this thread is interesting.
Someone mentioned our cultral Imperlism and seemed to resent it and I guess that could be a valid viewpoint but here in America you see a great deal of cross contamination of cultral influnces. I grew up in all sorts of diffrent places here in America and I found big diffrences and got caught in them (had a tendency when asked were I was from to just give the last place I was from you don't want to tell a southerner that your from The north). Unfortunatly History shows that a successful culture is one that blots out or absorbs the other culture. I am not saying that's right I am just pointing out that that is what happens. And America is a melting pot of cultures and I bet we are still struggling to find The American Culture. The United States of America is a very complex thing made up of a lot of groups. Corporate America. Federal America. North. South. Yuppies. Generation X. Black. Latino. European. Native American. Asian. Californians. No telling how things will sort themselves out. I'm hoping for the one big happy Family thing myself, but I am not holding my breath.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Don't forget Alaskians and Hawaiiites.

[tesco samoa]

HEY KWOK grab me another beer..

Munch Munch Munch...

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

?

This isn't a restaurant! Visit the Won-Ton (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=332509&amp;page=0&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=#Post332509) if you want eats and drinks, or start your own restaurant!

[Jack Simth]

StrategiaInUltima said:
Don't forget Alaskians and Hawaiiites.


Alaska was purchased from Russia, who had conquered it, and Hawaii applied for admission to the US after they had a successful internal revolution by a bunch of plantation owners after the US raised tarrifs (Hawaii's application waited five years before it was approved - plenty of time to discover whether or not the new regime was going to quickly collapse, or itself get overthrown - it didn't). Texas joined the US in a manner similar to Hawaii.

[Puke]

curse those stupid californians.

oh, and dont forget panamanians and philipinos. oh wait...

sorry. im really not opinionated, i just like to stir the fire (cause im a prick).

ignore me.

[Renegade 13]

StrategiaInUltima said:
So... you'd be fighting in WWIII. Just don't expect to survive.

Call me a ****ing idiot, but I still believe WWIII will be fought using, amongst other weapons, nukes. If worst come to worst, and we get WWIII, it will most likely involve China and N-Korea... both with nukes... on one camp, and the NATO on the other.

Global nuclear exchange.

(PM Sent to you)



If you were referring to sending me a PM, well it never arrived... If you weren't referring to me, sorry!

[Atrocities]

alarikf, we all know that your a Clinton fanatic so arguing with you about Clinton really is pointless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

that was AT sending a PM to me because a stupid typo avoided the swear word filter.

[Atrocities]

StrategiaInUltima said:
that was AT sending a PM to me because a stupid typo avoided the swear word filter.



Just doing my part for a greater Shrapnel Forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[AMF]

Atrocities said:
alarikf, we all know that your a Clinton fanatic so arguing with you about Clinton really is pointless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Nope. Clinton had a whole raft of problems and screw ups and I wouldn't vote for him today, and Bush has done a number of good things that I applaud him for. I'd like to think I'm a bit more objective about things than you imply. In fact, the heck with that. I KNOW I am a lot more objective than you.

And here's why: As always Atrocities, you make an inflammtory statement, then when you are rebutted with facts, you claim that "Oh, no need to be fanatical" or "I was just kidding" or "I don't really want to talk politics" or something like that that allows you to take the side door out of the debate and ironically sound high and mighty in so doing. Trust me - I do this for a living, and to those who actually talk and study politics it sounds clearly like you're afraid of actual substantive debates. You keep falling back on ad hominen attacks and divorcing yourself from rebutting the actual points made, instead you come up with some way out to save face. Hey, that's fine, but you can't do that and also claim your having a debate about the issues. You're not. You're just yelling fire in a crowded theater and leaving through the back while everyone responds.

Here's a thought experiment to try: when was the last time you changed your opinion about something based on a debate you had with someone on "the other side"?

Odds are, if most people are honest, they'll realize they have never changed their minds about something substantive except when it served their interests.

For me, at least two big instances come to mind immediately: I used to be fanatically pro-gun control. Conversations over the years with right wingers ahve convinced me of the merits (both philosophical and otherwise) of gun ownership. Heck, I even own a gun now.

I actually supported the Iraq war in the beginnging. So much that I was in Iraq for the first five weeks of the war as an embedded analyst with the Marines of 1st FSSG. (go guys! yay!). And, yes, I volunteered for it. Knowing what I know now, and the lies and missteps that have occurred, I realize what a mistake it was. (still very supportive of getting rid of Saddam, of course, but the other stuff we really screwed the pooch on...and for stupid and purely political reasons).

I am most likely in the process of changing my minds on school vouchers. Farm subsidies. I think we did the absolute right thing in Afghanistan (was in the mideast for that war too btw...)...I think we should have killed Saddam years ago...and, oh by the way, Clinton tried to (or did you forget that too?)...

Put your money where your mouth is. Respond to the FACTS - don't just take the side door out. If you are convinced of the rightness of your position, then you should be able to logically defend it and you should not be afraid to do so.

I'm waiting.

[Alneyan]

alarikf said:
I am [...] changing my minds [...]



I *knew* there was something fishy with you Alarikf. Sorry, couldn't resist. I will now leave this thread, and bring my silliness somewhere else.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Doesn't matter. Your input is valued by me (and many others, I think) to alleviate ptrssure from this thread when it gets too high.

[Gozra]

I always thought Clinton is the greatist Politician we ever produced.( I don't admire politicians ) It's lucky for us his flaws got in the way of putting his mark on American society forever.

I have read some about the Initial stages of the Iraq war And understanding what I do it was obvious that
A. reporters are really ignorant about military matters
B. The military carried out it's orders
C. The Politicians were prepared for disaster and not for success
D. I am convinced that the Press is so focused on selling papers that The Truth is just another tool to be used or not used
E. I know that most people in the United States are ignorant of the Constitution and only have a hazy understanding of Rights and Responsiablities they have.
F.We are allowing Corporate America to define America
G.We are headed toward serious consequences
H.This is one of the most Interesting times in History.

[AMF]

I think I totally agree with every one of your points here.....I would say that the plans could have been a bit better for the Phase IV stuff, of course...but that was a political not as much a military decision.


Gozra said:
I always thought Clinton is the greatist Politician we ever produced.( I don't admire politicians ) It's lucky for us his flaws got in the way of putting his mark on American society forever.

I have read some about the Initial stages of the Iraq war And understanding what I do it was obvious that
A. reporters are really ignorant about military matters
B. The military carried out it's orders
C. The Politicians were prepared for disaster and not for success
D. I am convinced that the Press is so focused on selling papers that The Truth is just another tool to be used or not used
E. I know that most people in the United States are ignorant of the Constitution and only have a hazy understanding of Rights and Responsiablities they have.
F.We are allowing Corporate America to define America
G.We are headed toward serious consequences
H.This is one of the most Interesting times in History.

[AMF]

Hey, sorry if I sound harsh, but frankly making controversial and inflammatory political statements, and then dodging any real debate, is emblematic of the entire problem the US faces today. Watch the talking heads on CNN, Fox, or whatever. People just shout their points, and the facts are lost while they scream at each other.

This country's political state is pretty cruddy right now largely because no one actually listens any more, instead we use rhetoric and insults and volume to score points. This approach, whether in a listserv, a public forum, or on the news, is part of the problem.

Don't be part of the problem. Listen, deal in facts, rebut logically, and be willing to change your mind. I am convinced that that is one of the marks of a mature polity and civilization. When we lose the ability to look at and discuss facts then we might as well call an end to the experiment that is Democracy.

With that in mind, I call's them like I sees them. Think globally, act locally, and all that. I'm not just gonna sit by and watch the political process get murdered any more than it already has. And one of the places where I can make this effort is here. So, yes, I will call people out when they are part of the problem. Sorry if it offends, but to do otherwise would be to condone to the slowly murder of the political process. And, yes, I too am guilty of this. We all are. But we are sentient human beings who can change our minds and our behavior.

Thanks,
Alarik

StrategiaInUltima said:
Doesn't matter. Your input is valued by me (and many others, I think) to alleviate ptrssure from this thread when it gets too high.

[Frederick_d_Ohlmann]

[I will go to english dictionnary for meaning of "interesting"]
A. Agree. Even if I am a pacifist it's too obvious
B. Agree.
C. Can be discuss but I don't think it would have change anything.
D. Yes. Nobody is interested by truth ; military lie to have an easier task ; newspaper lies to make money ; politician lie to be reelected.
E. Sadly, yes.
F. Replace "america" by "world". I can't find a country where it's false.
G. Obvious !
H. I remember that in some culture it's a curse...

[Puke]

alarikf said:
Hey, sorry if I sound harsh, but frankly making controversial and inflammatory political statements, and then dodging any real debate, is emblematic of the entire problem the US faces today.





StrategiaInUltima said:
Doesn't matter. Your input is valued by me (and many others, I think) to alleviate ptrssure from this thread when it gets too high.




I think he was refering to Alneyan, who was just being a wisenhiemer, and not really political.

[AMF]

Puke said:I think he was refering to Alneyan, who was just being a wisenhiemer, and not really political.



Doh! I feel stupid. Sorry! Removing foot from mouth now.

Guess I'm wound a bit tight, eh?

heh.

[RudyHuxtable]

I would just like to say that if we want to see an end to the actions the US takes, it's actually simpler than you think. It's called speaking up.

During the rise of Hitler, he began instating programs during the time of '35-'36 (sorry I don't remember specifics right now) and the people, including the international community said F-U dude, no way. The man caved. So if HITLER can cave under international pressure, so can GW. I call my Congressman whenever something goes on I don't like, but I'm only one voice. Get everyone else to do it and we'll have the power back where it belongs.

[Alneyan]

Actually, I think this message was aimed at Atrocities: the reply field was Atrocities and not Alneyan, while Atrocities was not the last poster at the time of this message (so it was not a quick reply thing). I feel that the message fits in best with Atrocities as well, mainly because of the "Doesn't matter" part.

But I guess it could have been aimed at myself too. Or perhaps not. Still, I stick with my point that Alarikf should not be allowed to have several minds, among other things.

[AMF]

Alneyan said:
Still, I stick with my point that Alarikf should not be allowed to have several minds, among other things.



Hey! I'm gonna call the the society for the protection of multiple-brained humanoids!

Besides, I need more than one brain to even survive in SE4 games where I'm fighting you.

[Gozra]

I have observed that people in general have a problem with facts. If it does not support their world view then apparently it is not a correct fact. I find that it is very difficult to have a debate and convince someone that they are wrong or maybe changing their world view might be a correct thing to do. Voices advocating reason are few and far between and the ability to change your mind based on verifiable facts is a talent that is hard to find. We have slowly developed a society that stands on their rights and refuses their responsibilities and has a hard time understanding their duties. I think this situation is a product of more people living in cities and organized for group think rather than Independent style of living out in the country.
As to current events President Bush has outlined a stragety that can work against global terrorism but since we are unable by ourselves to make it work mostly what will happen is the law of unintended consequences. And liberal and conservative elements will take advantage to tweak things their own way with most of us in the middle. I think the best thing to do now is find a place to watch from the sidelines and hope to figure the best time to jump in and make a difference. Maybe the right difference.

[Alneyan]

Wily Alarikf! Do not cross me, and you will not need to fight me; nonetheless, feel free to spread the word about my extraordinaire cunning and unparalleled genius. If that can scare off would-be enemies, it will be one less war to fight, and wars not fought are wars we won.

Since you are planning on fighting you, I also forbid you to ever change your minds: changing schemes are really not called for. I feel especially silly for giving you a small tip about your designs in that game, just when you were planning to declare war on me. At least, I did not tell you *too much*, but still, I shouldn't be so talkative. And speaking of not being talkative, I will stop digressing here.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I WAS meaning Alneyan. So far, whenever the pressure in this thread got too high, he put in a "light" post which alleviated much of the pressure and sometimes even changed the entire course of the conversation/discussion.

[Atrocities]

And here's why: As always Atrocities, you make an inflammtory statement, then when you are rebutted with facts, you claim that "Oh, no need to be fanatical" or "I was just kidding" or "I don't really want to talk politics" or something like that that allows you to take the side door out of the debate and ironically sound high and mighty in so doing. Trust me - I do this for a living, and to those who actually talk and study politics it sounds clearly like you're afraid of actual substantive debates. You keep falling back on ad hominen attacks and divorcing yourself from rebutting the actual points made, instead you come up with some way out to save face. Hey, that's fine, but you can't do that and also claim your having a debate about the issues. You're not. You're just yelling fire in a crowded theater and leaving through the back while everyone responds.




You’re a feisty one aren’t you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I sent you a PM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[AMF]

Atrocities said:
I sent you a PM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



S'all good man. See my PM.

Alarik

[Gozra]

I do believe there is corporate American Imperialism but the system that created it is in a down swing. I hope. I will be very disappointed when we all find out that ethics and morality in corporations is not cleaned up. It certainly looks like that won't happen.