Retrofit Rant

[Slick]

Not a real rant, but I just wanted to mention that it is frustrating to me that the retrofit cost plan doesn't make sense. The way it stands, you can upgrade a very old component to the latest tech much cheaper than a newer component due to the older component costing less. There are many examples of this but one that bothers me is that Spaceyard component. Upgrading a Spaceyard I to Spaceyard III is cheaper than upgrading a Spaceyard II to a Spaceyard III. It would seem that this should be the other way around, but since the Spaceyard I costs less than the Spaceyard II, it is cheaper to remove.

Ok, I feel better now.

[Caduceus]

So following that logic, you keep mothballed fleets to save minerals with a mass upgrade once you get PDC 5?

Hrm.

/me wanders away to ponder this

[geoschmo]

I don't see why retrofitting an earlier component would be more expensive then retrofitting an older component. However, I agree it also doesn't really make sense that retrofitting a newer component should more expensive either. I guess what you are suggesting would be the removal cost be some sort of flat rate, or perhaps based on tonnage instead of a percentage of the cost of the component being removed?

[Suicide Junkie]

I would suggest making it somewhat negative, since you're effectively scrapping the old component.

[Slick]

Ok, reality does not apply to a game such as SEIV, but let's not debate that. I would think that an upgrade is not a complete trashing of the old component and a complete installation of the new component. The closer the 2 components are to each other, the less would need to be changed. Thus, there would be more work to upgrade a more obsolete design and its cost should reflect that.

This gets into some sticky points. What about components that get cheaper as they get more advanced? What then?

That's my $0.02

[Zereth]

I never thought it made much sense that you pay extra for the component you're putting in, _and_ pay part of the cost of the component you're taking _out_. Shouldn't you get something _Back_ from the old component, if anything? If nothing else, you could break it down for scrap or something. As well as the fact that you apparently compeltely remove your old DUC III to put in a DUC IV.

[geoschmo]

I believe that the idea of getting something back for the new component is built into the idea that you are not paying full price for the new component. Although it does seem a backwards way of doing it.

[Fyron]

You need to have the retrofit add cost at least 100%, if not higher, for retroseries builds where you are just adding new components. Having a negative cost for removing a component makes normal upgrades cheaper than gamey retroseries builds. You can even do something fun like 200% cost to add a component, -115% cost to remove it. Note that you can never gain any resources from a retrofit. This makes adding components in a retroseries 2x as expensive, while upgrading a component to the next version in the family is a bit less expensive than the cost of the component alone. It also makes it so that if you replace your DUCs with APBs, you pay a lot more than just upgrading DUC I to DUC II, but still less than if you were just adding APBs to an empty hull.

[Nodachi]

Fyron said:
than gamey retroseries builds.



I thought you considered retroseries a feature. Have you changed your position?

[Fyron]

No. Features can still be gamey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[luke_slovakian]

Hey you guys can look at retrofit cost like this.... Older models of components would be easier to update because there will be more options available but the later technology is more specific in a section and requires more care to upgrade and thus making it cost more and the older version.
Get what I am trying to say?

[Fyron]

Given that these are the only 2 moddable lines (not counting cost of the components) that affect this aspect of retrofitting and that the other retrofit mechanics are hard-coded, this can't be adequately addressed in SEIV unless there is another patch to the exe. But it can be brought up here for SEV.

It can, after a fashion. Make the cost to remove -10. Now, removing a more expensive (hence higher level) component will give you back more resources than removing a cheaper component, so it will cost less to upgrade DUC IV to V than it would DUC I to V.

There are only a few components that get cheaper with more tech levels in stock SE4 (I can only think of engines), so they would be the exception for more obselete components being more expensive to upgrade from than less obselete components.

[Atrocities]

Retrofitting is heavily over rated. Don't be fooled, it is not as practical as you might think. Sure retrofitting a ship is cool, even using the retro series designs is neat, but making it actually work in your favor is a real PITA. Good luck and enjoy.

[Fyron]

Retrofitting ships is a necessity... you can keep your DUC armed ships without sensors or ECM, I'll retrofit mine to the latest tech. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

I never have time to retrofit anything in a PBW game. By the time the ships are retrofitted, the game is over, or the design is so obsolete that the ship is worthless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Slick]

A general strategy I use is to build ships that are a split between latest tech but sub-optimized to build them faster based on spaceyard construction rate. They are complete enough to go into battle if necessary. When they are built, I send them to one of my Ship/Fleet training centers for 3 purposes: 1) to be trained to 20/20, 2) to be retrofitted to the latest design, 3) to be put into a fleet. A ship can continue to be trained while being retrofitted.

Typically at one of my training centers, I have several Space Station Spaceyards which provide repair capability for all these retrofits and are always building ships or, more likely troops, to support my fleets.

I normally build ships in a set ratio. If I have the time, each fleet gets at least 1 troop transport (for capturing planets), 2 minsweepers (for redundant minesweeping capability, total usually >100), 2 spaceyard ships (for field repairs, field retrofits and field building of replacement troops), 1 aux ship (supply if necessary, anti-cloak, long range scanning, repair if necessary, and maybe medical bay), and finally enough combatant ships to take on enemy fleets and capture planets - starting around 20-30. I'll also build the occasional infrastructure ship (planetmaker, warp opener, warp closer, pop transport, etc.)

So my internal spaceyards churn out these ships. Then they are sent to the training centers which are a revolving door of new ships coming in, with retrofitted, trained fleets leaving. While being retrofit and trained, the large number of ships at the training center provides defense for this most valuable sector. When new ships arrive, they are temporarily placed into a "holding" fleet where they instantly get the 20% fleet training bonus for sector defense and to unclutter the ship display. In these systems, I commonly move all the warp points into this sector as well to force any incoming enemy to face a large number of ships no matter where they came from.

So, retrofitting is a key element of my play style.