(Shocking) News!!!!!

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I don't know if you have read the SG Blog lately, but I found this.....





As some of you who follow us pretty closely may have already surmised, Malfador Machinations has chosen not to publish Space Empires V with Shrapnel Games, opting instead to publish through Strategy First and go after the retail market. Although we regret Aaron Hall’s decision, we respect his motivation and wish him the best of luck at retail with a niche product. We only hope he makes enough changes in his game to allow for a broader audience. All of us here at Shrapnel Games wish him a great deal of success.

We will continue to sell Space Empires IV Gold and Space Empires: Starfury until current inventories are exhausted. We want to thank everyone who has supported Shrapnel Games and Malfador Machinations with their purchases of these excellent games.

We have grown to love the Space Empires IV forum community and want to extend an invitation to these rowdy, crazy, and somewhat warped individuals. We would like you to stay with us, and to that end, we will install a Space Empires V forum for you to populate and enjoy! You are always welcome at Shrapnel Games.

Thanks to all who made Space Empires IV a roaring success.




Comments please?!?

My first comment:
Whoa.....

[Captain Kwok]

Yes indeed. Unexpected I'd say.

[Phoenix-D]

Definitely unexpected.

And probably quite annoying for Shrapnel- this has happened several times now.

[Arkcon]

I said *woah* too, and I was worried. Where will we get useful tips and tricks, friendly OT discussions, and give feedback to modders? And selling SE5 through commercial outlets? *shudder* How many "Sphereworld components won't fit on a baseship, and all my colonys are empty"-type questions will we have to field.

Then I see that Shrapnel Games is going to keep an SE5 forum up for us. That's nice of them.

So ... give some thanks the folks at Shrapnel. Click on something in the border. Dunno if it'll help, but I like to give support back where I can.

[Captain Kwok]

Yeah, SE:V would have been a good money maker with an already established and somewhat fanatical base. A big loss for Shrapnel.

[RudyHuxtable]

It will be a loss for Shrapnel, yes, but I also think Aaron lost out on SEIV because of the limits on distribution. It's generally accepted that SEIV is current pinnacle of 4X gaming, and if he had reached a bigger audience, wow. Lexus anyone?

Now, I'm not saying that bigger is better. Give me the chintzy bitmap graphics over flashiness every day (I play War in the Pacific regularly, which features NO graphics).

But let's be honest. He deserves all the success (and capital) that he's entitled to, and a bigger distributor would make that possible. Not to mention the funding it would provide for SE6 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I like Shrapnel Games, and appreciate their efforts to help indie developers. Even Electronic Arts operated out of a garage at one time. I'm just wondering if there is something they can do that is more aggressive and would attract a bigger market. I think TheGamingNews.Com will help a bit. Even I would like to see more games like Dominions or SEIV make it mainstream.

[Phoenix-D]

Another interesting side effect:

As far as I can tell, this means that -every 4x game on the market- is being sold by the same publisher.

[Richard]

RudyHuxtable said:
It will be a loss for Shrapnel, yes, but I also think Aaron lost out on SEIV because of the limits on distribution. It's generally accepted that SEIV is current pinnacle of 4X gaming, and if he had reached a bigger audience, wow. Lexus anyone?

Now, I'm not saying that bigger is better. Give me the chintzy bitmap graphics over flashiness every day (I play War in the Pacific regularly, which features NO graphics).

But let's be honest. He deserves all the success (and capital) that he's entitled to, and a bigger distributor would make that possible. Not to mention the funding it would provide for SE6 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I like Shrapnel Games, and appreciate their efforts to help indie developers. Even Electronic Arts operated out of a garage at one time. I'm just wondering if there is something they can do that is more aggressive and would attract a bigger market. I think TheGamingNews.Com will help a bit. Even I would like to see more games like Dominions or SEIV make it mainstream.



Well we can differ on this subject but I don't think SE:IV in retail would have helped much. I also can guarantee you that SE:IV in Retail would have meant less money for Aaron over it's sales cycle.

We have been offered retail deals, and even considered taking Dom 2 and SE:IV (as well as other games) into retail ourselves through our own contacts in the industry, but it just isn't a good deal for developers or any one else involved.

I wish him luck, this has always been my personal favorite game that we currently publish.

[Ragnarok-X]

Pretty surprising. In my opinion Aaron did a mistake here. Shrapnel is known for publishing of "niche" games, i dont think a better publisher for SEV could have been found. In addition im wondering if the publisher/sale change will have any effect on the development of the game.

[Puke]

Im sorry to see it moving away from Shrapnel. This company publishes alot of good games. I might not like all of them, but I certainly enjoy a larger percentage of them than any other publisher that I have met.

Being in "good company" can attract the attention of like-minded individuals that might not be shopping for your game, but would be interested based on the quality of other games under the same unbrella. This works for both Malfador and for Shrapnel.

[Raging Deadstar]

Dam... I never expected that. But i guess that's business.

And I have to say Thank you to Sharpnel for the forum offer, This place is great and the effort you put here is immense, There isn't a forum i've been on that I've enjoyed more than here. I'll have to go buy a copy of Dominions II or some other Shrapnel Sold Product now out of Loyalty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[mac5732]

I am disappointed that he is leaving especially before SEV comes out. IMHO, I feel that he is losing more then he realizes, If you take into account this forum and those on it that not only play his game but actually go out and advertise it, I don't see Strategy lst having the same kind of player forum base, but I might be wrong. If he looks at Strategy's lst forum site he might realize that their setup and forums don't compare to ours. I have a number of their games, and I have seen that their support is a minus compared to Shrapnel's as well as the friendly feelng in their forums is not anywhere near to par as Shrapnel. I do wish him luck and hope he eventually returns to us. We'll miss him

[DeadZone]

Yea, I kinda found out about this when not long after it was decided (was in contact with Aaron during a now-abandoned project we were doing)

[Alneyan]

Surprising indeed. I am not sure the game will be any better by getting into the retailer stores; if all goes well (not a given in itself), it might result in a better market penetration abroad though. At least in France, a game *has* to be available in stores and in French to sell really well, and will usually not even be reviewed in the mainstream press if the first condition isn't met. Strategy 1st may be able to help in those areas... or perhaps not.

I gather Strategy 1st does business like everyone else in the retail industry? That is, will the game drop in prices once it has been available for a few months? If so, it will be another matter: I would expect many sales of SEIV to have been made months or even years after the game was first published, and those were still profitable. SEV is unlikely to get that kind of window of time while nearing games selling much more quickly.

Well, we shall see I guess. I am glad SEV will still be "sheltered" on those boards; hats off to Shrapnel for that.

[Renegade 13]

Holy crap! This sucks, I always had nothing but good things to say about Shrapnel and their support....I doubt I can say the same thing about Strategy First....Damn. And I sure as hell hope that switching publishers won't increase the price of SEV when it comes out...I'm not exactly rolling in cash, and I can't afford an increase.

Does anyone have any idea why Aaron is going away from Shrapnel, and heading for the retail market?? The obvious consideration is that he thinks he can make more money, but I'm not sure if that's going to happen. I mean, how many people do you know that actually enjoy strategy games, especially games like SEIV?? As a proportion of the gaming population it is quite small, and I'm not so sure SEV will do well in retail. I sure hope it does, that'd be great, but I have my doubts. Obviously Aaron doesn't though.

[Puke]

well, S-F has some very flashy looking games. The game designers all have some very flashy looking web pages. Even the glamor shots of SE5 dont stack up with whats already out at S-F.

So I honestly think that MM is going to sink like a rock in that environment. The kiddies just are not going to be interested when the bells and whistles are not chromed.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Alneyan: I heard that Andres made a Spanish translation of SEIV once, perhaps you could do a French translation, perhaps even for Malfador itself, as they would then also be able to sell more copies in, say, Canada.

And as for further comments:
Good luck Aaron. Here's hoping SEV will appeal to the "mainstream" gamers more, so it attracts more attention in the gaming world.

Who knows..... in a few years you might actually be on the E3 with a Malfador stand! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

We only hope he makes enough changes in his game to allow for a broader audience.

I fear that dumbing it down to mass-market levels will totally ruin the game.

Hopefully it will just mean dumbed down and graphics-intensive stock settings, with higher quality** mods for the rest of us.

-----

** Complex, challenging and imagination-firing, with lots of decisions to consider among designs, strategies and development. To hell with graphics; make it a good, hearty spreadsheeter, and use an ASCII-art shipset http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tim Brooks]

I gather Strategy 1st does business like everyone else in the retail industry? That is, will the game drop in prices once it has been available for a few months? If so, it will be another matter: I would expect many sales of SEIV to have been made months or even years after the game was first published, and those were still profitable. SEV is unlikely to get that kind of window of time while nearing games selling much more quickly.



Alneyan, this is the retailers' bad and there isn't much the publisher can do about it. If a game doesn't hit a certain turn level (so many copies per week), then the retailer either wants the publisher to take it back (free the shelf space for something that turns faster) or reduce the price (bargain bin it). The publisher can't pay to bring the games back from retail, then turn them around again to get them to the consumer - it would be a losing proposition. So there only option is to reduce the price.

It is why retail is so undesirable for niche games. They can't do the numbers quick enough to keep them out of the bargain bins. They aren't allowed to develop a following, the shelf space is too precious to the retailer.

You should read our blog on "Why Traditional Retail and Niche Games Don’t Work" - posted on 2/24/2005 - for the scary numbers.

[tesco samoa]

Truefully I think SEIV was a perfect match for Shrapnel. And I think that Shrapnel helped SEIV as much as SEIV helped shrapnel.

I am disappointed with the announcement. The protental for bigger is not always the protential for better.

This series is not a mainstream game. It is for a small piece of the market.

[Puke]

The only reason I walk into retail stores anymore, is to see which of last year's great niche games i can pick up for under 10 bucks.

Its sad, really.

[tesco samoa]

well guess i will see people here and there....

[tesco samoa]

3 posts.

Either way. It was a good time for aaron here and I wish him luck on his new adventure with SEV.

If I like the game I will support the game as much as i can.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

The only reason I walk into retail stores is to see if a game I've heard about and want is there, and at how much it currently sells, and to pick a game up that I have been looking forward to for quite some time and is now about >$20 or something.

I hope this does not affect SEVI. I recall an excellent niche game with pretty crummy graphics (Settlers IV) that tried to go mainstream as "Settlers: Heritage of Kings". It threw just about EVERYTHING (some to think of it, not JUST ABOUT everything, simply EVERYTHING) that made it a Settlers game overboard and even though its graphics look "better" now, and it's a pretty good game in its own right, it has absolutely NO right to call itself a Settlers game. I hope this is NOT an omen regarding SEVI..... (as SEV is currently nearing beta and is thus purely Aaron's, but SEVI could very well be influenced by the dreaded Marketing Department)

[Evil_Duckie]

There's only a small number of computer games that manage to grab, and hold, my attention for a longer period of time. SE4 is one of them (as well as the SimCity and Civilization series, I keep going back to them). Unfortunately, they're not really the kind of games that sell well. If SE5 is going to go retail, it'll have to compete with the 3D shooters, sports and race games that are so popular at the moment. Tough job.

Coincidentally, a Belgian pc games magazine (imho the best on the Dutch market, as it focuses only on pc games) reviewed 3 games published by Matrix Games last month. 2 of the 3 were similar to SE: stat-heavy strategy games for the 'serious' gamer. They got mediocre scores because of the low-tech graphics and the 'lack of action'.

I don't think the general public will become excited about SE5 and I seriously hope this won't affect a possible SE6 (or the community) in a negative way.

[Alneyan]

Strategia => A translation is a mod will not be enough to break foreign markets (speaking of France at least): a translated manual could help, but there is little inside the files that can be a problem for the users. The explanations about what *is* an APB aren't needed to play the game; knowing how research works is, though I have found SE to be easy enough to understand. The main use of a translation is to make it easier to sell a game in those countries were foreign languages have a harder time (it would be much less of a factor in Scandinavia).

Tim => I should have been clearer. Does Strategy 1st go into "cheaper sales" as quickly as other publishers? Some publishers wait for a lot longer before dropping the prices of their games, while other publishers are much more willing to go to the magic $15 price tag. There may be a difference between the US market and here however: can the same edition of a game have a decreasing price in the US? Almost all games stick above $30 here when first published, and only drop to $15 in a new box, with even lower prices requiring another edition. Or is it just a matter of removing the manuals and changing the boxes, with the unsold full price CDs filling the "$15 edition" boxes?

Hmm, that wasn't any clearer, was it?

[Gandalf Parker]

As I understand it part of "game drops" happen because of discounts for bulk purchases. The stores drop the price for what they have in the warehouse, not the publisher. And many retailers have stopped purchasing from front-line publishers due to lack of agreements meeting the store policies (at least thats what the local retail store said. The stores want to allow returns all the way up channels (or re-shelving) for complaints the way they can with a toaster or a sweater. They can with game catridges and those cheap $10 3rd hand titles but not with sotware from the publisher. (Shrap can correct me on that)

Aaron is doing the standard high-stakes "gamble". He gambled that he had enough followers from his first games (am I remembering right?) to go with a publisher that managed all of the "work hour" stuff like online ordering, overseas coverage, publicity, reviews, coverage at trade shows, help-line support (like forums). In return he got almost instant flow of direct profit checks from beginning to end.

Now he apparently feels he has enough of a base to jump to the "shelfware and advertising" level. It doesnt take alot of reading in the games and development newsgroups to see the pros and cons of that. That goes from "work hours" to hefty "$$$ investment" by the publishers. And that has to be paid back before the developer sees anything from it. There are alot of gripe sessions from publishers naming major companies and complaining that they never saw any money on what they thought was a fairly popular game. They got a bigger base but no payoff so the next version switched publishers again to someone geared for steady checks. Maybe Aaron will come back for SEVI (Keep going Aaron. I want to see the advertising for SEX)

You know, nothing really stopped any of us personally (Aaron included) from doing the "advertising gamble for return" thing with our own moneys as a middle-man site.

Check out the "about us" on the main page and read why Shrapnel was created. It helps.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

You know what I hate about games lately? They're almost all sold in small "DVD boxes" instead of the "old" bix cardboard box. The small DVD boxes are pretty OK, but you get SO LITTLE in print..... I mean, in HOMM4 all that was in print was a tutorial guide, whereas in the "old" boxes there were usually good manuals, catalogues, sometimes extras.....

And the WORST part is multi-CD games with only a single CD slot in the box. It's SHEER INSANITY having to get one or more CDs out of the fricking thing (as some are MOST user-unfriendly and removing a disc from them involves lots of words that had you used them here would have immediately caused you to be kicked out of the forum) and then later having to do the same thing again.

And Aaron, I plead to you, PLEASE, follow your OWN imagination! Don't go with the Marketing Department! Approx. 80% of the games released lately are CRAP because of that dept..... the MarkDept currently seems to rule the games industry and get the overall quality of games down. Please, Aaron, don't succumb to this! Be original! Be creative! Be YOURSELF!

-----and as for the ASCII art ships.....

[XenoTheMorph]

This IS shocking!
I hope I'm wrong for Aarons sake but I think he is making a big mistake, staying with Shrapnel would be the better option IMO. (Not least because of the great community here, let alone the fact we have friendly talkative Publishers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif here )
*Looks up and waits for the sky to fall in for such blasphemy* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I'm hoping that Aaron will see "the light" and return to Shrapnel when SEV hits the market (or preferably before that)..... but when the game suddenly becomes a massive hit, and SEVI and possible SEVII don't suffer in gameplay, I would congratulate Aaron. But then I still think he should return to Shrapnel. Perhaps this will also attract more attention to Shrapnel in general as well.

[DarkAnt]

Richard, thank you for hosting an SE5 forum. You've really helped the space empires community flourish. I hope the best for aaron and you and I hope that the best means aaron will come back to shrapnel.

[Tim Brooks]

Alneyan, sorry I misunderstood. This is a European thing, I know Ubisoft (that's a French Company, correct?) does this - they did it with Ghost Recon 2 here in the states - I think it lasted about 6 months or so before the repackaging and drop. I know Empire Interactive (British) did this over here with my title 101: The Airborne Invasion of Normandy. Most US publishers don't repackage with the price drop. Strategy First is Canadian, so I'm not sure how they handle this.

[NullAshton]

Small boxes are cooler.

[DarkAnt]

Ok, I'm going to be harsh here and I hope you read this Aaron. I may not be an expert on the industry, but as an avid gamer who's been playing games since I was two and a half, I'd like to think I know something about games. Aaron, Star Fury did not have industry competitive graphics and neither will Space Empires 5. You don't have the money to do it. Nowadays if you don't have huge amounts of advertising and awesome graphics your game will always be a niche game. I'm sorry, but that’s just the way it is. The average gamer is going to conclude that this is a stupid spread sheet game when he can't figure it out in the first five minutes. He's going to tell his friends what a bad game and all of this will land Space Empires 5 into the bargain bin and beyond in no time. You’re going to have to deal with hackers, script kiddies and just generally malicious people who's goal is to just hurt Space Empires 5. Aaron, if you're reading this I'd like to say what joy the space empires series has brought me and as a loyal fan, I feel I owe you my thoughts when I think you are making a big mistake. You got greedy, plain and simple. Stick with shrapnel, the real world is too harsh for good games with less than fantastic graphics. I hope for your personal success as you have shown me and the rest of Malfador's fan base nothing but respect.

[Combat Wombat]

I also posted my 2 cents as a respone directly to the blog post.

[Phoenix-D]

My last couple of comments were in the "if you can't say anything nice" vein.

My actual reaction is a gut "Oh [censored]" feeling. SE5 was a instant order before this; now I don't now. I know Shrapnel doesn't screw with their games to make them more mass-market; I DON'T know that about Strategy First, and I'm worried about that.

It almost invariably hurts the game and it almost never actually works.

Best of luck Aaron, and while I don't know the circumstances involved this feels like a mistake.

[thorfrog]

Hey have any of you ever heard of Galactic Civilizations? That is thru Strategy First as well and it was a great CIV3 in space game. I'm not worried. I can't wait for SE:V. Just make sure that what ever you do you do not cheese out like MMO3.

[RudyHuxtable]

Ahhh the march of change. I'm not about to liken this to Roman resistance to adopting Jesus as top dog, but I hope it won't take the gaming community 300 years to accept Aaron's departure for Strategy First.

I definitely understand where everyone is coming from. We love our game the way it is. We want Aaron to take what he's learned from the community and build it into SEV. Early indications are that this is already happening. From the list of intended features, I don't plan on getting married because she'll only leave me out of neglect. All the elements for a masterpiece of a 4X game are there. If anyone can make it, Aaron can. He's done it already with SEIV.

But let's try a glass half full approach for a moment:

"Aaron, moving SEV to Strategy First, revolutionizes the way 4X games are created, developed, and received by the general gaming community, and earns for SEV and SEVI a place on the shelf next to Rome: Total War, and Napoleon: Total War. He ends up knighted by the Queen, who has spent countless hours locked in conflict with the EEE and the Xiati. President Bush declares the release date of SEV a national holiday. Aaron creates world peace ala The Wyld Stallyns."

We don't know what input Strategy First is going to have, if any. It's entire possible they know gold when they see it and will give Aaron carte blanche. If not, then just don't buy it since you're sure it's going to be an abysmal failure simply because of its increased distribution or retail ambitions. Someone else will eventually retake the 4X throne if Aaron dethrones himself.

Now, really. Understand I'm a lover of Shrapnel like the rest of you. Interstellar Trader eats up coffee breaks, and my friend wants to burn my computer for the repeated beatings he's taken in Dominions. But for people to already be making judgment calls is a little premature. For all we know this could be the best thing to ever happen to the world. I'm telling you. Singing in the streets of Delhi. Wait and see.

[Nodachi]

Shocking? Yes, it is. As much as I love this game I think it is going to get murdered in the retail market. Games being released now are extremely graphic intensive. Take a look at the system requirements of popular games like Half Life 2. This is due to what drives the retail games market, younger gamers. Retail PC games have to compete with console systems so you can have the greatest gameplay in the world but if it don't look pretty and have tens of thousands of polys moving around on the screen, it won't sell. From what we've been shown of the game it can't compare.

Something else that worries me is that if the game doesn't do well how will that affect the series? If it bombs in the retail market could we be looking at the final chapter in the Space Empires saga? Isn't this game Aaron's primary income now?

[Renegade 13]

I read in the blog that Shrapnel will sell the current stores of SEIV and Starfury, but that's it...or at least that's the implication. After the stock here at Shrapnel is depleted, where will we be able to get SEIV and SF?? Will it even be possible?? Maybe I should buy my second copy now...

[Combat Wombat]

Renegade 13 said:
I read in the blog that Shrapnel will sell the current stores of SEIV and Starfury, but that's it...or at least that's the implication. After the stock here at Shrapnel is depleted, where will we be able to get SEIV and SF?? Will it even be possible?? Maybe I should buy my second copy now...



I think thats what I might do too

[Renegade 13]

Wouldn't it be cool if we could keep the Shrapnel SEV community here a 'secret' that only old SEIV players knew, and kept the stupid whining kiddies and the like away from this place?? We should try. Keep the Strategy First forums for the frustrated kiddies.

You know, maybe we are all being too negative about this. I'm sure that, even though publishers are being switched, we'll all of us here still buy the game. I mean, basically he'll have the same amount of sales guaranteed as he got for SEIV, so maybe it's not such a risk for such potential gain. But what do I know.

[DarkAnt]

I don't think we should. Although I contemplated it myself, we should really try to bring some extra traffic here and help out shrapnel some. After all, they are letting us use their forum.

[ironman]

I have a few Strategy First games and if "They" think that SE 5 is as good for a Strategy First lable then go for it.

[Caduceus]

This is probably the best forum I've ever been on. I truly appreciate Shrapnel supporting us and our addiction. But, business is business. Aaron wants to try something different. Nobody knows how this will all turn out. I had noticed a lack of information from Shrapnel regarding SEV, but hadn't put it together yet.

[Fyron]

atomannj said:
Hey have any of you ever heard of Galactic Civilizations? That is thru Strategy First as well and it was a great CIV3 in space game. I'm not worried. I can't wait for SE:V. Just make sure that what ever you do you do not cheese out like MMO3.

Both GalCiv and Civ 3 were trite and pointless... I don't see much hope with Strategy First.

[Baron Munchausen]

DarkAnt said:
Ok, I'm going to be harsh here and I hope you read this Aaron. I may not be an expert on the industry, but as an avid gamer who's been playing games since I was two and a half, I'd like to think I know something about games. Aaron, Star Fury did not have industry competitive graphics and neither will Space Empires 5. You don't have the money to do it. Nowadays if you don't have huge amounts of advertising and awesome graphics your game will always be a niche game. I'm sorry, but that’s just the way it is. The average gamer is going to conclude that this is a stupid spread sheet game when he can't figure it out in the first five minutes. He's going to tell his friends what a bad game and all of this will land Space Empires 5 into the bargain bin and beyond in no time. You’re going to have to deal with hackers, script kiddies and just generally malicious people who's goal is to just hurt Space Empires 5. Aaron, if you're reading this I'd like to say what joy the space empires series has brought me and as a loyal fan, I feel I owe you my thoughts when I think you are making a big mistake. You got greedy, plain and simple. Stick with shrapnel, the real world is too harsh for good games with less than fantastic graphics. I hope for your personal success as you have shown me and the rest of Malfador's fan base nothing but respect.



Remember how many times we have seen people complaining on the forums here about not being able to get SE IV in Europe or Australia or something? And then complaining about the awful shipping charges even if they could find a way to get it shipped to them? Wanna take a guess at how many more times people probably emailed him directly instead of posting in the forums? Probably a lot. And he has already had to deal with 'hackers and script kiddiez' for some time. Richard has already posted here in the past that they were estimating 10 copies of SE IV were pirated for every one bought. Maybe MM has judged that getting a major distribution channel is a better way to go so people who want his game can get it without having to resort to piracy.

I am also afraid of what the pressure of a 'marketting department' might do to the game, but I can see how he would want to get his product to as many people as possible and try to make money. But I suspect that even if it does relatively 'well' he won't make much due to the lopsided deals that these big-time software distributors make with the developers. It's very similar to recording contracts. The corporation soaks up all the money with protests of needing to cover 'expenses' and the artists can even end up owing the corporation money.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hmmm Shrapnel has overseas sales sites for Dominions so I figure they would for SEV if it was here.

Folks.. Keep in mind that the same number of sales of SEV as SEIV had will give give Aaron the same money that SEIV did. With the shelfware+advertising model there is a substantial outlay of money from the publisher which gets paid back with interest before the developer starts getting any checks.

Definetly send the whiners to their forums. Have you seen them? The internal ones are the same software as this and not nearly as well setup. Its no wonder that most of their titles do their own boards off of different free sites. And many of them have some pretty extreme rules.

[Joachim]

Hmmmm,

Disapointing for Shrapnel, it must really irritate you when you work so hard with someone and they get up and go. I hope there are not too many hard feelings so that he can come back for SEVI.

What does this mean for the race to SEV tourney? What about the Beta slots and SEV copies?

[S.R. Krol]

One thing that I'm surprised about that seems to have been forgotten is that Strategy First (a)is in bankruptcy (b)is now going to direct downloads...e.g. no retail

Do a Google search, you'll come up with both news items.

-Scott

PS: As far as GalCiv and Strategy First goes Brad Wardell, creator of GalCiv broke off with SF awhile back. Once again, search for it and you'll find his take on the deal.

[Spoo]

Sounds like bad news to me. I hope I'm wrong.

[Suicide Junkie]

Joachim said:
What does this mean for the race to SEV tourney? What about the Beta slots and SEV copies?

The beta slots are given out by Aaron himself.
I'm one of the contributors to the SE5 copy prizes, and this dosen't change that.

[geoschmo]

Joachim said:
What does this mean for the race to SEV tourney? What about the Beta slots and SEV copies?

All of the promised swag for the tourney was worked out between Tesco and Malfador. The publisher doesn't usually get involved in that stuff unless it's something they are setting up themselves, which Shrapnel was not in this case. It shouldn't have any affect at all.

[Joachim]

geoschmo said:

Joachim said:
What does this mean for the race to SEV tourney? What about the Beta slots and SEV copies?

All of the promised swag for the tourney was worked out between Tesco and Malfador. The publisher doesn't usually get involved in that stuff unless it's something they are setting up themselves, which Shrapnel was not in this case. It shouldn't have any affect at all.



Cool, not that I dont have a major personal interest in the outcome of the Atull game....

[David E. Gervais]

S.R. Krol said:
One thing that I'm surprised about that seems to have been forgotten is that Strategy First (a)is in bankruptcy (b)is now going to direct downloads...e.g. no retail
-Scott



Well, the last I heard the 'filing for bankruptcy protection' was about a year ago, since December the company has shown positive cash-flow and are slowly getting back above ground.

They have struck a deal for more online outlets for their games but this is in addition to their retail stuff.

I sure wish people would tell the whole story and not these half-facts that serve no purpose other than to generate worries in the fans.

Aaron is the one funding the development of SE5 and he is in 100% control of the quallity and schedule for SE5. Beta slots and prizes for the PBW tournament are not affected by this news in the least.

Nuf said, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Phoenix-D]

PS: As far as GalCiv and Strategy First goes Brad Wardell, creator of GalCiv broke off with SF awhile back. Once again, search for it and you'll find his take on the deal.



They did? The galciv website still has "Published by Strategy First" on it.

[thorfrog]

Well your welcome to your opinion but I think CIV3 and GalCiv were great. Galciv has been handled well by Strategy First and so will SE:V. Well I can hope.

[Phoenix-D]

Gandalf Parker said:
Hmmm Shrapnel has overseas sales sites for Dominions so I figure they would for SEV if it was here.




Those networks might have been setup after SEIV was released. There was definitely a lot of "I can't get the game!" complaining.



Folks.. Keep in mind that the same number of sales of SEV as SEIV had will give give Aaron the same money that SEIV did.




With the shelfware+advertising model there is a substantial outlay of money from the publisher which gets paid back with interest before the developer starts getting any checks.



One of these is not like the other! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Renegade 13]

Is it just me, or are some posts in this thread being deleted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

I'm positive I just read a post at the top of the thread by Geo I think, and now it's gone!

[Combat Wombat]

OMG renegade you are right fyrons post is gone and geos post is gone!

[Combat Wombat]

Oh fyron and geo deleted their own posts. Oh well so much for having something to be excited about.

[Fyron]

There is no post!

Back to your regularly scheduled shocking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[geoschmo]

Nobody get all paranoid now. It was just a slight misunderstanding. Fyron and I got it straightened out and decided the best thing was to just remove the posts rather than add additional confusion.

Nothing to see here citizens, move along. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Phoenix-D said:

Gandalf Parker said:



Folks.. Keep in mind that the same number of sales of SEV as SEIV had will give give Aaron the same money that SEIV did.




With the shelfware+advertising model there is a substantial outlay of money from the publisher which gets paid back with interest before the developer starts getting any checks.



One of these is not like the other! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif





Ouch. Correct. I meant to say that the same sales will NOT give the same profit. Due to the extra money layout for that marketing model.

[Suicide Junkie]

Gandalf Parker said:
Ouch. Correct. I meant to say that the same sales will NOT give the same profit. Due to the extra money layout for that marketing model.

That is my biggest concern, after the discussion on IRC today settled most of the other things.

I'd like to send Aaron a fistfull of bucks directly, just to make sure he gets mine.
Perhaps some sort of limited-edition signed CD thing for us rabid fans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Annette]

Wow. Some interesting reading today. We truly appreciate the show of support for Shrapnel Games and Malfador Machinations. Our wish is for continued success for both companies.

I see some comments being thrown around that I'd like to expand upon.


Well, the last I heard the 'filing for bankruptcy protection' was about a year ago, since December the company has shown positive cash-flow and are slowly getting back above ground.



Strategy First filed for Chapter 11 protection from bankruptcy on August 18, 2004, with their largest debt being a reported $1.7 million USD owed to game developers around the world. Yes, this may be cause for concern as to what kind of support will exist for their future releases with stories like this being publicised:
Ideal Games Explanation for No Patches (http://www.ideal-games.com/news/20041108.aspx)

Something like this may or may not be an issue in the future if the proposed buyout by Silverstar Holdings meets the conditions set by the Montreal bankruptcy courts.
Silverstar Holdings Aquistion of Strategy First (http://www.silverstarholdings.com/press/02-28-05.html)


There was definitely a lot of "I can't get the game!" complaining.



Our games are now carried by retail outlets in over ten countries (see my blog of March 7). It's true that when we released Space Empires IV five years ago our network was not as large. Since then we have been focused on expanding that market. We also restructured our shipping rates some time ago so that shipping a single game to most international destinations via USPS Global Priority Mail is $5.00 USD.

There are folks who will always complain about not being able to find a game. Heck, there's a thread on the Strategy First forums right now about customers not finding their newest release of Disciples II Gold in stores. No publisher can please everyone. The best we can do is to listen to what is being said and take action to make corrections when we can. It's the response to complaints that will make or break any company.

David is correct about the prizes for the PBW tournament not being affected. The tourney was conceived and implemented by Malfador. Shrapnel donated a small prize even knowing we would not be publishing SEV.

Thanks for allowing me to hopefully straighten out some of the misconceptions.

[RudyHuxtable]

David E. Gervais said:

S.R. Krol said:
One thing that I'm surprised about that seems to have been forgotten is that Strategy First (a)is in bankruptcy (b)is now going to direct downloads...e.g. no retail
-Scott



Well, the last I heard the 'filing for bankruptcy protection' was about a year ago, since December the company has shown positive cash-flow and are slowly getting back above ground.

They have struck a deal for more online outlets for their games but this is in addition to their retail stuff.

I sure wish people would tell the whole story and not these half-facts that serve no purpose other than to generate worries in the fans.

Aaron is the one funding the development of SE5 and he is in 100% control of the quallity and schedule for SE5. Beta slots and prizes for the PBW tournament are not affected by this news in the least.

Nuf said, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



If he's funding it 100% then everybody should just go have a beer and chill. SEV is in good hands. And if it's a stinker, Aaron has no one to blame but himself.

Keep making good games, Shrapnel.

And something needs to be said about these forums. They're great. People are cool, level headed, and don't throw epithets and ridicule where it isn't due. I like having the freedom to express myself without the fear of flaming... but that leads me to a simple point.

Forums devolve into a flaming mess when people insist on not IGNORING the flames. Let em go, and forums clean up quick. This is not a unique forum when it comes to coolness. It's just extra special because we're all science fiction loving dorks with hearts of gold and hours of free time.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I hope my heart isn't made out of gold. I'd die!

[Atrocities]

Well guys it’s been an amazing journey thus far and I have enjoyed it immensely. Shrapnel Games has earned my loyalty through superior games and fanatical customer support. I hate to see SE V going away, but I trust in life that all things change and that sometimes change hurts.

I look forward to many more years as a shrapnel games customer as they release more games and continue to provide excellent customer service.

As for Strategy First, well, they are not Shrapnel Games so I don't expect the same quality of customer service that I have seen with Shrapnel. As for the SE V forum, well that is a concern, but hopefully by then SE.net will be up and running stable.

I am optimistic about space empires future, as I am sure many of you are. However be it store shelf or internet sales, I believe that in the long hall, five to ten years down the road, many of us will look back at the time we have spent here, on the Space Empires IV forum, and miss it. Although SE V is not going to be a shrapnel product, perhaps SE VI will be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Remember SE V is not the end of SE IV so hopefully this forum will continue to have a healthy and long life.

Shrapnel Games has earned my loyalty and I hope the same is true for many of you. Kodos to Shrapnel Games for being more than just a place that sells games.

[Atrocities]

Oh yes, one last thing, Gal Civ is a perfect example of a success story. Never forget that. It flurished because MOO3 failed so horribly. SE IV, albeit never confirmed, gained many sales and picked up a huge chunk of the market as a result of the MOO3 disaster.

Many of us know and trust Shrapnel Games while not really knowning Strategy First. Given the news about their financial situation only flames our concerns, but trust in Aaron, this is his game, and he will do what is right to protect it.

I have faith that SE V will sell well, slowly but well, as did Gal Civ. And please ponder this, by extention, if SE V does well, or even just moderately well, so will SE IV. That means, at least until shrapnels inventory is depleted, more sales for them. With the support of this forum, and the huge resevor of information contained here, this place is a fricking gold mine, an information gold mine that is.

The more people who visit shrapnel games, the more likely sales they will see for their other products as well. Or at least that is what I hope will happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So this change of the gaurd, albeit a very painful one, might just work out well for all three companies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Randallw]

What concerns me is that SE5 will dilute the SE4 elite community (by which I use the connotation, few). As we are at the moment we have a stable community which is friendly and welcoming. I am shocked to think that if SE5 is more widespread we shall be innundated with people with no respect for those established as our communities leaders, such as Atrocities, Geoschmo, or Fyron etc, .People who will insult and disregard others. Imagine the day some leet speaker comes up with (and please excuse my unfamiliar attempt at lowering my vocabulary)

Hey doods, look at mi orsom mod.

I value the fact that to my knowledge Intel has not be sullied by flamewars or baiting. I regularly visit another forum and it is almost as good except for the occasional baiting or insults that are instantly banned by the moderators. Naturally we must be willing to accept converts to the cause but I can't help but be worried that the quality of our community will descend.

[Atrocities]

Randallw I doubt it will ever get that bad. SE V, like IV, are more or less the kind of games that the "hey dood" type avoid.

I know one thing, I am going to buy a few more copies of SEIV for posterities sake. That and so I can sell them on ebay for $100.00 each in a few years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Whoah..... leave this thread alone for just one night and you immediately get over 30 replies! Wow!

[deccan]

Wow, interesting news. Curious that there's so little information on Malfador's site.

And hey, everyone who wants to thank Shrapnel, buy Dom3 when it comes out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[DarkAnt]

I take back those strong words in my previous post. I guess we just don't like change. It was a knee jerk reaction. David has reassured me that Aaron still is in 100% control of the game and everything will be alright. I hope he's right.

[Lisif Deoral]

Well... I actually don't find it too much shocking. I'm starting to wonder if I'm weird http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Anyway, I started playing SE III, and the change from shareware to internet publishing (or whatever its name is) was a big one, IMO a lot more relevant than the change from internet-only to retail.

First and foremost, SE IMO isn't really a niche game (you'll disagree, I know). It was developed (and sold) as a niche game (and as shareware until 2000!), though - there isn't anything wrong with it, but this shouldn't lead us to presume that it can't go well on the wider market just because it's indie (or shareware!).
Actually, many games published by Shrapnel aren't niche games - or at least their niche is wider than the one of other games; Austerlitz: NGV wasn't as "nichy" as BCT, for example. IIRC SEIV has been Shrapnel's best seller by far (really, really far, just check the number of posts in the forum): I suppose this means that it has a wider appeal than other titles.

Consider the changes between SEIII and SEIV: the concept is the same, but while SEIII was developed as shareware, SEIV was a commercial game. SEIV graphics are obsolete (even in their format: uncompressed BMPs!), but they are still much better than those of SEIII. SEIV's interface is needlessly complex, but I found the one in SEIII so annoying to even bother learning it (and quit playing even if I thought SEIII was a great game). And so on. Basically, SE III and IV are the same game, with a different development; there are still a lot of margins for improvements in SEV.


Please note that I live in Europe, so I might not fully understand what could be the actual consequences of the publisher change. I think the PC game market is very different here (or at least, I had difficulties understanding large parts of Shrapnel's blog entries on the PC game market status). BTW, I had both SEIV and SEIV Gold shipped from the US by courier. I think I spent more for the courier than for the game.
Now, what could be the consequences of being published by SF? I suppose you could still buy it online (although not from the publisher, I think), and still have a community and some sort of support (from Malfador at the very least). What else?

"Watering down the game" to increase its appeal to hordes of mindless frothing teenagers isn't a consequence IMO, as publishers don't write game code. They can ask the developers to do some changes, but I suppose Aaron knew this when he (willingly) chose his publisher, and thus anticipated the possibility of any such changes - the game is still his own, not SF's. Should he self-destroy his game in an attempt to gain popularity, it would be his fault...
Also, even if the game sets the new world record for worst sellers in history I don't think Aaron would be jailed for it, so I suppose he'd still be able to develop SEVI. By the way, the hordes of mindless whining kids won't be a problem unless the game has some success, so the two fears are mutually exclusive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Last but not least, I wished to thank Shrapnel for publishing SE IV. A shareware SEIV wouldn't have been the same thing. I'll be back (for Dominions III). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Nodachi]

David is correct about the prizes for the PBW tournament not being affected. The tourney was conceived and implemented by Malfador. Shrapnel donated a small prize even knowing we would not be publishing SEV.



That is just plain classy! Hell, most companies would already have shut the game's forum down. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Thank you Shrapnel for all the support of this community over the years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

The reason SEIV uses bmps is for modding purposes (or so I believe). The Gold Manual even contained a Modding Guide, and there were some much-used mods on the Gold CD.

[Captain Kwok]

I'm not so worried anymore after speaking with David. Aaron is in 100% control and since he's put in all his own money for its development, there's not much the "publisher" can force on him in regards to changes etc.

I still feel for Shrapnel though - so perhaps I'll buy Salvo... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[NullAshton]

Space Empires needs to use .jpg files. Would reduce the size of mods and the game a lot, and allow more stuff to fit in. Imagine... THOUSANDS of system pictures! TENS OF THOUSANDS of component pictures!!!

Edit: Maybe he could also build a mod editor that creates compressed mod files, instead of the old text files that waste so much space. That way, we can utilize all those tens of thousands of component pictures http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Imperious_Leader]

I have quite a few of the hey dood types of friends....their not to bad after you get used to them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.....anyway a couple were over the other night , no worries about hordes of them taking up the game.They couldn't belive that I would waste a hour visiting 15 planets setting up construction ques and redesigning a destroyer......and one of them compared the graphics to pong....lol I was surprised he knew what pong was.You'd have to make into a totaly different game before they'd be interested at all.So for now no worries.......dudes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tim Brooks]

Lisif Deoral said:
IIRC SEIV has been Shrapnel's best seller by far (really, really far, just check the number of posts in the forum): I suppose this means that it has a wider appeal than other titles.



You know folks, I really hate to have to come in here and post like this; we sometimes hesitate to post as we have always felt that our forums are for the fans. But we do still have a business to run and it is misinformation like this that can truly affect our business.

All the above quote actually says is that the Space Empires IV crowd is vocal and the game has enjoyed longevity - which, I believe we all knew http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif. We wish we could get the wargamers to be this vocal here, but they have a vast forum network that extends beyond the Intel Forums. The reality though is that SEIV was not our 'best selling game by far'. It however has been in our top 3 sellers since its release over 5 years ago. In 2004 it was beat out by Dominions II, which was our top seller, and, in fact, SEIV came in 4th place for the year.

The other myth I want to dispell is that somehow retail is going to 'get the name out' in a bigger way than we have. Although it could be true for SEV (who knows at this point?), I would say that we have done an excellent job of making the public aware of SEIV. With over 1 million demo downloads (and it could be much, much more than this, as I stopped following the numbers a couple of years ago), I would say the public is quite aware of SEIV.

If SEV is a major success at retail, it would be due in no small part to our efforts with SEIV (and I think that is what personally hurts me most with Aaron's defection). The reality is that Strategy First does not compete well at retail. How can they compete marketing wise with companies the like of EA and Ubisoft? And as you all know, to excel at retail you need the masses. The game must sell to more than the hardcore strategy fan to do the numbers you need to succeed. This takes informing the masses, and Strategy First doesn't have that kind of money.

I believe I know why Aaron went with Strategy First, based on our convesations of last year. My understanding is his decision was based on the sales of Galactic Civ, a true expception to the niche market rule (name another niche market game in the last 6 years that has done anywhere near that well). If I am not mistaken GC sold over 100,000 units at retail, but this was not due to Strategy First's market penetration, but to Brad Wardell's name and standing in this industry. Search for GC on any search engine, and you come up with not Strategy First entries, but Brad Wardell entries. Now, do a search for SEIV and see who comes up?

In closing, just remember that a defection of a popular developer like Malfador will stir up this industry, and it is our job to make sure that it is put in perspective. Please don't assimilate information that just isn't true. It makes our job much harder.

[tesco samoa]

Update on the Tourny Prizes. They will not be affected... Our goal is still the same. Thank Aaron for SEIV and support SEV. This does not change. SJ and I are still buying the copies of SEV out of our pocket. That does not change. Nor does the other prizes.

And to toot my own horn.... Annette it was I who came up with the idea for the tourney http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif My thankyou to everyone. I get to toot it very little so toot toot ! Narf help me out here...

[Annette]

tesco samoa said:
And to toot my own horn.... Annette it was I who came up with the idea for the tourney http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif My thankyou to everyone. I get to toot it very little so toot toot ! Narf help me out here...



I stand corrected, Tesco. Thanks for the clarification. My intention was to dispell any perception that the tourney was sponsored by Shrapnel and to clarify it's not affected by this announcement in any way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Caduceus]

I am still suprised that there is no response from Malfador. Aaron...?

[Iron Giant]

Wow. Thats a kicker. But for all the back and forth "he said, she said" it seems to me the real questions don't have answers:

1. Will SEV be dumbed down for a broader market?
2. What is its current PROJECTED release date?

As much as I happen to think Shrapnel games is cool (A forum for a game they don't sell?? Who DOES that??) and I like the group of fans here, the publisher won't really affect my enjoyment of the game, the cost is irrelevant (charge $100 for all I care, if the game has the draw of SEIV I'll get 1000 hours out of it. How many games are $.10 per hour?) and its clear that Aaron will support it long after it comes out.

If its dumbed down to appeal to twitch gamers I'll stop following it entirely.

If this change means its not coming out till 2006, I'll stop following it (but I'll keep an eye out in 06...).

[David E. Gervais]

Iron Giant said:
Wow. Thats a kicker. But for all the back and forth "he said, she said" it seems to me the real questions don't have answers:

1. Will SEV be dumbed down for a broader market?
2. What is its current PROJECTED release date?




The quick and to the point answers are..

1) No!
2) The Beta starts in April. (release is always pending the speed and success of the Beta)

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[tesco samoa]

This is my last post in this tread.

But I am going to say this.

Some people here are starting to sound like the SEIII crowd when seiv was coming out.

F.U.D. is not the way to go about this. Enjoy what was and what will come down the road. If its not your ride then get off and catch on to something else. No reason at all to be bitter here. As Geo would say. Dude Chill.

[DeadZone]

Actually David, I now fear, that with Aaron going to SF, what happens to every other game on the market will happen to SEV
Aaron is pushed into releasing before its ready

How many publishers have we seen do that? about 90% of games today are released well before they're ready

I hope this won't be the case and Aaron has full control of this aspect

[geoschmo]

tesco samoa said:
As Geo would say. Dude Chill.

For the record, I didn't coin the phrase, but it is appropriate in this situation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[tesco samoa]

I would say it is fear.

Beta still needs to happen. So that release date has not been set yet. Assume Aaron has full control still.

[geoschmo]

tesco samoa said:
This is my last post in this tread.




Then...

tesco samoa said:
I would say it is fear.
...



Every time Tesco thinks he's out, we pull him back in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

geoschmo said:

tesco samoa said:
As Geo would say. Dude Chill.

For the record, I didn't coin the phrase, but it is appropriate in this situation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



Ah, a continues Shrapnel aficionado.....

So Cliche

[Malfador Machinations]

Greetings to the Space Empires IV fans!
------------------------------------------

Shocking! No, not so shocking. We love the community here at Shrapnel and have had a great time working with Shrapnel Games over the last 4 years. We just need to try and see if there's a bigger audience for the Space Empires series out there. This will mean getting the game into retail, and releasing specific language versions for different countries.

And don't worry about the SE5 development. Its completely in our hands and we have total control. Its being made much the same way that SE4 was. Our support for the game will be the same as always regardless of the publisher. We'll make patches as long they're needed!

The beta test for Space Empires V will start next month, and the first screen shots will be posted in April. We want to thank everyone for the terrific suggestions and support! We couldn't do it without you.

Aaron

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Aaron!

Thanks for the reassuring words. I'll be sure to buy SEV ASAP, be it a Shrapnel release or S1st. Keep up the good work!

[sachmo]

Malfador Machinations said:
We couldn't do it without you.





Well, you could, but who would buy the game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Good luck in your venture. I hope things work out the way you hope they do.

[Gandalf Parker]

Tim Brooks said:
I believe I know why Aaron went with Strategy First, based on our convesations of last year. My understanding is his decision was based on the sales of Galactic Civ, a true expception to the niche market rule (name another niche market game in the last 6 years that has done anywhere near that well). If I am not mistaken GC sold over 100,000 units at retail, but this was not due to Strategy First's market penetration, but to Brad Wardell's name and standing in this industry. Search for GC on any search engine, and you come up with not Strategy First entries, but Brad Wardell entries. Now, do a search for SEIV and see who comes up?



Thats highly unfortunate. I know of Brad Wardell and GalCiv for many MANY years. Any conversation in AI newsgroups brought him and the game to mention as a prime example of game AI. I was always peeved that it was an OS/2 game making use of the multi-tasking in that OS. When I heard that BW was jumping on WinXP as possibly finally being able to run the game properly I rushed to pre-order it. (unfortunately so far Im not thrilled with the porting of it)

From what I see in newsgroups I think that a definate sizeable chunk of GalCiv sales was due to it showing up on shelves but it was because of old-timers like me seeing it and saying "is that the GalCiv I kept hearing about and could never run". There was a ready-made market if you could catch the eye of the people who normaly dont glance at the games anymore. Im not sure if there is much of a "lost gamers" market with fond memories of SEIII and SEIV to be snagged by SEV. There probably is but Im not sure that they cant mostly still be reached by newsgroups and game-mag reviews. Maybe there are, time will tell.

[tesco samoa]

Back again.

Tim to quote you



All the above quote actually says is that the Space Empires IV crowd is vocal and the game has enjoyed longevity - which, I believe we all knew . We wish we could get the wargamers to be this vocal here, but they have a vast forum network that extends beyond the Intel Forums. The reality though is that SEIV was not our 'best selling game by far'. It however has been in our top 3 sellers since its release over 5 years ago. In 2004 it was beat out by Dominions II, which was our top seller, and, in fact, SEIV came in 4th place for the year.




I do not quite follow this... So for 3 years it sold away and then in year 4 D2 took over for year sales and then to date this year 4th place... So does this mean it is only the best selling game by a little then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif
No disrespect. Just trying to understand the paragraph.

[Baron Munchausen]

DeadZoneMDx said:
Actually David, I now fear, that with Aaron going to SF, what happens to every other game on the market will happen to SEV
Aaron is pushed into releasing before its ready

How many publishers have we seen do that? about 90% of games today are released well before they're ready

I hope this won't be the case and Aaron has full control of this aspect



Actually, SE IV was published before it was ready. I don't think the game was complete until the Gold edition. And that was only Aaron and Richard making the decisions (I didn't hear anything about Tim Brooks leaning on them if he did... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) This seems to be a general problem with software, not just games. Proper development takes LOTS of testing, and that means lots of time. Very few people, or companies, are financially secure enough to finish the development of a major software project in one go. I fully expect that SE V will be incomplete in some major ways when first release. If I don't get in on the beta team and get a 'free' copy I'll probably wait till SE V Gold to buy it.

[Tim Brooks]

tesco samoa said:
I do not quite follow this... So for 3 years it sold away and then in year 4 D2 took over for year sales and then to date this year 4th place... So does this mean it is only the best selling game by a little then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif
No disrespect. Just trying to understand the paragraph.



Sorry tesco, what I meant is that on our 'all time' top sellers list, SEIV is in the top 3, not our "best seller by far". Last year, 2004, Dominions II was our number one seller and SEIV was 4th.

This is not meant to discount SEIV in any way, we are proud to call it a best selling Shrapnel game, it just shows how much our fan base has grown since we started in business. Heck our new releases now do in a month what it took SEIV several months to do back in 2000, when it was first released.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Baron Munchausen said:

DeadZoneMDx said:
Actually David, I now fear, that with Aaron going to SF, what happens to every other game on the market will happen to SEV
Aaron is pushed into releasing before its ready

How many publishers have we seen do that? about 90% of games today are released well before they're ready

I hope this won't be the case and Aaron has full control of this aspect



Actually, SE IV was published before it was ready. I don't think the game was complete until the Gold edition. And that was only Aaron and Richard making the decisions (I didn't hear anything about Tim Brooks leaning on them if he did... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) This seems to be a general problem with software, not just games. Proper development takes LOTS of testing, and that means lots of time. Very few people, or companies, are financially secure enough to finish the development of a major software project in one go. I fully expect that SE V will be incomplete in some major ways when first release. If I don't get in on the beta team and get a 'free' copy I'll probably wait till SE V Gold to buy it.



http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20000715.html

[Will]

Tim Brooks said:

tesco samoa said:
I do not quite follow this... So for 3 years it sold away and then in year 4 D2 took over for year sales and then to date this year 4th place... So does this mean it is only the best selling game by a little then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif
No disrespect. Just trying to understand the paragraph.



Sorry tesco, what I meant is that on our 'all time' top sellers list, SEIV is in the top 3, not our "best seller by far". Last year, 2004, Dominions II was our number one seller and SEIV was 4th.

This is not meant to discount SEIV in any way, we are proud to call it a best selling Shrapnel game, it just shows how much our fan base has grown since we started in business. Heck our new releases now do in a month what it took SEIV several months to do back in 2000, when it was first released.


Sooo, Tim... When's the IPO? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

As for the publisher jump, it of course could be a mixed blessing. It sounds like Aaron will be leveraging a bit of SF's resources to get more mainstream advertising and reviews, as well as helping out with translations and such. It's much easier and better to have a professional translator make a non-english version of a game, both the internal description bits and the manuals and such. That opens up the market quite a bit.

The mainstream part is what worries me. The majority of gamers I know in person prefer console games, and the PC games they play are either A) a shoot-'em-up, or B) the Sims, or C) Snood. I still don't get the Snood crowd. Regardless, I have no idea if SEV will fit into the mainstream. I hope it will.

Also, kudos to the wonderful Shrapnel people! Keeping the forums goes beyond anything expected from customer service. Now you said something about selling off existing stocks of SEIV and SE:Starfury... You all are still the publisher for those games, right? (and Dungeon Odyssey?) You'll still be selling those, right? I could understand not ordering any more copies of SEIV once SEV comes out, since people will naturally go with the newest version, but SE:SF should still have some life in it, I think.

/me needs to go to the Shrapnel Store and make some purchaces soon...

[Fyron]

NullAshton said:
Space Empires needs to use .jpg files. Would reduce the size of mods and the game a lot, and allow more stuff to fit in. Imagine... THOUSANDS of system pictures! TENS OF THOUSANDS of component pictures!!!

JPG is not a good format. It loses too much color information (even with those algorithms used by David Gervais...). PNG is far, far superior, and has no royalty fees involved to boot.

[Fyron]

DeadZoneMDx said:
Actually David, I now fear, that with Aaron going to SF, what happens to every other game on the market will happen to SEV
Aaron is pushed into releasing before its ready

Truth be told, both SEIV and Starfury were released before they were really ready to be released... Both of them had big bugs lurking about and that were not yet fixed, as well as some lacking features. Certainly, they were patched within a few months, but still...

[NullAshton]

Imperator Fyron said:

NullAshton said:
Space Empires needs to use .jpg files.

When was this? SE3 had nothing but BMPs...



What does this have to do with anything?

Edit: Why did you have to do that?

[Suicide Junkie]

Will said:
Also, kudos to the wonderful Shrapnel people! Keeping the forums goes beyond anything expected from customer service. Now you said something about selling off existing stocks of SEIV and SE:Starfury... You all are still the publisher for those games, right? (and Dungeon Odyssey?) You'll still be selling those, right? I could understand not ordering any more copies of SEIV once SEV comes out, since people will naturally go with the newest version, but SE:SF should still have some life in it, I think.

/me needs to go to the Shrapnel Store and make some purchaces soon...

Doesn't SE3 still sell copies?

I would expect that the SE4 and SF games will still sell after SE5 has had its 15 minutes of retail fame.
Trying to sell them while SE5 is breaking into the market is probably not a good idea, of course, but it shouldn't kill the market.
There is bound to be a surge of people interested in the whole series.

[Phoenix-D]

Suicide Junkie said:

Will said:
Also, kudos to the wonderful Shrapnel people! Keeping the forums goes beyond anything expected from customer service. Now you said something about selling off existing stocks of SEIV and SE:Starfury... You all are still the publisher for those games, right? (and Dungeon Odyssey?) You'll still be selling those, right? I could understand not ordering any more copies of SEIV once SEV comes out, since people will naturally go with the newest version, but SE:SF should still have some life in it, I think.

/me needs to go to the Shrapnel Store and make some purchaces soon...

Doesn't SE3 still sell copies?

I would expect that the SE4 and SF games will still sell after SE5 has had its 15 minutes of retail fame.
Trying to sell them while SE5 is breaking into the market is probably not a good idea, of course, but it shouldn't kill the market.
There is bound to be a surge of people interested in the whole series.



Any additional SE4 copies would probably have to be made by Strategy first, unless MM made a deal with Shrapnel to continue production.

[Suicide Junkie]

SE4 has nothing to do with S1st.
Why would they make copies?

[mac5732]

IMHO, I think we all need to just sit back, take a deep breath or two, (maybe a brewski to help drown any sorrows) and look at the total picture. This is a business, and Aaron, like any other buisness person, looks ahead to further his growth as well as income. He apparently wants to try something new and look into other possible markets. Thats business. I/we/whomever, apparantly are upset which is normal reaction. However, Aaron has been with Shrapnel and all of us for a long time and I don't think he would turn out a half baked game. If he did, I'm sure most of us would not buy it, further, I would bet that some of us would say so in other forums as well. Therefore, Aaron has everything to gain by putting out another quality product and everything to lose if he doesn't. I know its hard for us addicted rapid fans to make/see a change, but, lets wait and see how the game turns out. After all, we'll still be here and Aaron knows where to find us and Shrapnel. I wish him the best of luck, and still hope he drops in on the forum and in the IRC SE4 chat room once in awhile. Life goes on and so will Space Empires (hopefully). Thanks to the great people at Shrapnel, we will still have a SEV forum here for us to use/talk/complain/gripe/mod/etc. What other company have you ever seen who would post a forum on a competitors game? None that I know of. Tks Shrapnel we appreciate it. The real question is do we combine the SEV and SEIV forums into l or keep them seperate? There are pros and cons for both. We have time to decide and let Shrapnel know. Oh well, my 2 cents, I'm going to go have a brewski or two to enrich my depression over this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lisif Deoral]

Tim Brooks said:

Lisif Deoral said:
IIRC SEIV has been Shrapnel's best seller by far (really, really far, just check the number of posts in the forum): I suppose this means that it has a wider appeal than other titles.


All the above quote actually says is that the Space Empires IV crowd is vocal and the game has enjoyed longevity - which, I believe we all knew http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif. We wish we could get the wargamers to be this vocal here, but they have a vast forum network that extends beyond the Intel Forums. The reality though is that SEIV was not our 'best selling game by far'. It however has been in our top 3 sellers since its release over 5 years ago. In 2004 it was beat out by Dominions II, which was our top seller, and, in fact, SEIV came in 4th place for the year.



Er... yes, I think I used the wrong tense (English syntax error in line 2... er, I meant "it isn't my native language, sorry"). What I meant was that I thought that SEIV was the best seller in 2001 or 2002. Anyway, I suppose the overall sales total for 2000-2005 is good if it managed to stay in the top 3 for 4 years.

[Phoenix-D]

Suicide Junkie said:
SE4 has nothing to do with S1st.
Why would they make copies?



They won't. I don't know for sure, but given Shrapnel's statement I think production rights went with MM. I.e. Shrapnel doesn't have the right to make any more SE4/SF copies.

[Tim Brooks]

Hi Will:


...will be leveraging a bit of SF's resources to get more mainstream advertising and reviews



Again, some misinformation control. Shrapnel Games had SEIV reviewed by every mainstream print and web publication in both the US and Europe, receiving over a dozen industry awards.

As to SF's resources, they are controlled by the bankruptcy courts.


Regardless, I have no idea if SEV will fit into the mainstream. I hope it will.



I believe everyone here feels that way.


Also, kudos to the wonderful Shrapnel people! Keeping the forums goes beyond anything expected from customer service.



We would miss you guys if you left, so we hope you stay here. These forums are yours.


Now you said something about selling off existing stocks of SEIV and SE:Starfury... You all are still the publisher for those games, right? (and Dungeon Odyssey?)



Until current stocks are depleted. Coming from a development, not publishing background, I do not believe in owning rights to our developers games. The rights stay with the developer after the contract period expires. Aaron came to us after we declined an offer to do a catalog exchange with Strategy First and asked us not to print any more Starfury or SEIV. We, of course, agreed. We would have taken Dungeon Odyssey out of print later this year anyway, so doing it a bit earlier just makes the break with Malfador easier.

We will, of course, still support both Space Empires products and Dungeon Odyssey through customer service and here through the forums, even after the inventories are depleted.


me needs to go to the Shrapnel Store and make some purchaces soon...



I wouldn't take too long. Projections are for SEIV to sell out in 2 weeks or so, and Starfury a bit longer.

[Joachim]

To vaguely distract people...

This is a fascinating exploration of loyalties. We have the fans to the game and developer and the fans to the publisher. These connections create a conflict with people choseing sides (loyalties require sides). This is an emotional reaction as people feel threatened, both as Space Empire gamers and as supporters of the protagonists. We also have loyalties from Aaraon and MM to Shrapnel and her people. The switch is being felt like an act of treason to some or growing up and moving on for others.

Our emotions, and loyalty being one of those, helps to direct social action - what we do in response to a given problem/issue/situation. The beauty of emotion is that it does not have to be rational, considered or make 'sense' (what is sense anyway?). Emotion orientes us to how we should feel and act.

So, what am I ranting about? What has happened here will create an emotional response for many - hence the posts and emotional tone that is expressed. Hurrah for that. But try to understand that with competing loyalties there is usually only irreconcilable differences of view. One person's traitor is another's saviour.

From my postion, I only see gain, we will get more players for SEV (and if it flops then for SEIV), we get to keep the fine forum here and thus be kept up to date with other great niche games from Shrapnel. I can see how Shrapnel might be a little peeved, but I also see that MM want to try and grow in a different market.

Thus ends the lecture... now I might go and harrass my actual students.

[Phoenix-D]

That's about what I expected, but what the heck is a catalog exchange?

[Imperious_Leader]

Stocks will be depleated in in two weeks or so.....wow am I ever glad I bought when I did, took over a month to get it but well worth the wait!

[Tim Brooks]

Hi Phoenix-D.


... but what the heck is a catalog exchange?



A catolog exchange is where two publishers will put each others product catalogs into their games. It can be appealing as it brings recognition for your products to the other publisher's fan base.

[Tim Brooks]

Lisif Deoral said:
Anyway, I suppose the overall sales total for 2000-2005 is good if it managed to stay in the top 3 for 4 years.



No doubt. We will miss SEIV.

[Will]

Tim Brooks said:
Hi Will:

...will be leveraging a bit of SF's resources to get more mainstream advertising and reviews


Again, some misinformation control. Shrapnel Games had SEIV reviewed by every mainstream print and web publication in both the US and Europe, receiving over a dozen industry awards.

As to SF's resources, they are controlled by the bankruptcy courts.


Sorry, didn't mean that as a slight to Shrapnel. I just meant that many of the print reviewers shove niche and independant game publishers into small sections of the magazine. With a retail publisher, I think it might be easier to get a proper (at least full page) review. If Shrapnel has managed that, I was not aware, and that would definitely be good news.

Anyway, just ordered Starfury and Gold... I was going to throw in Dominions as well, but I think it's bad enough that I'll be failing the rest of the semester now that I have those two games, I don't need to add a third and $50 to that at the same time. Besides, DomIII is coming out Soon(tm), right?

And I'm assuming that's a "No Comment" on the IPO, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Renegade 13]

To echo the sentiments of some other people:

A: Calm down, wait and see. We can all predict the possible possibilities, but life has a strange way of defying prediction.
B: Did anyone else notice the "over 1 million demo downloads" for SEIV!??! Thats huge! I wonder what percentage of that actually bought the game.
C: I'm in agony! Can I afford to buy another copy on the budget of a 17 year old? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Thermodyne]

Well, I'm surprised. But I’m also sure that Mr. Hall is doing what he thinks is best for his business. After all, I’m quite sure that he does this for money, not the grief we tend to lay on him. And I wish him the best of success with his release of SE5.

As to the company he chose, only time will tell. But past history would say “Don’t spend the money till the check clears the bank.” We can only hope that the game is a big hit and everyone gets rich http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

edit: fixed typos.

[Tim Brooks]

Hi Will:


Sorry, didn't mean that as a slight to Shrapnel.



No offense taken. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Anyway, just ordered Starfury and Gold...



Thank you for supporting us. That will help Aaron with development costs. Enjoy!


I was going to throw in Dominions as well...



This is a great game. My favorite. Maybe after the semester is over... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Besides, DomIII is coming out Soon(tm), right?



Late 4th quarter of this year.


And I'm assuming that's a "No Comment" on the IPO, eh?



Soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Kamog]

Well, I'm going to buy SEV when it comes out in stores later this year.

narf poit chez BOOM said:
I hope my heart isn't made out of gold. I'd die!


That's good, I couldn't stop laughing! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Thank you. Comments like that just make my day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

Thanks Tim and Malfador for the posts and the information.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Thank you very much everyone who posted here. Thank you Aaron for creating such a marvelous game as SEIV. Thank you Shrapnel for publishing it and for this forum. And also thank you Shrapnel for retaining this forum and customer services when Malfador leaves.

And Aaron, good luck with S1st.

[Ragnarok]

Thermodyne said:
Well, I surprised. But I’m also sure that Mr. Hall is doing what he thinks is best for his business...



Why thank you, I certainly am doing what I think is best for...oh wait...you mean the other Mr. Hall! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I always knew having the same last name as the developer of SE series would cause me problems.

Hmmm...maybe we are related...nah, I highly doubt it as I have no family from CA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[AMF]

Joachim said:
...From my postion, I only see gain, we will get more players for SEV (and if it flops then for SEIV), we get to keep the fine forum here and thus be kept up to date with other great niche games from Shrapnel. ...



Yeah, it definitely seems like win-win for the fans. I think it's safe to say that we all seem to love BOTH the forums and the game, and I would like to heartily thank Shrapnel for being as cool about this as they are being as well as Aaron for making an outstanding game. And, I think it makes good sense business-wise and game-wise for Aaron to go the route he thinks will gain SE4/5 the greatest distribution/publicity/fan base. Kudos to shrapnel, kudos to Aaron, and I intend now to go buy Dom II to show my support...(and I am going to buy another copy of SE4, since, if stocks really are going bye-bye I want a backup or one to give to a friend...)

Off MY soapbox...

Thanks,

Alarik

[Thermodyne]

Ragnarok said:

Thermodyne said:
Well, I surprised. But I’m also sure that Mr. Hall is doing what he thinks is best for his business...



Why thank you, I certainly am doing what I think is best for...oh wait...you mean the other Mr. Hall! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I always knew having the same last name as the developer of SE series would cause me problems.

Hmmm...maybe we are related...nah, I highly doubt it as I have no family from CA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

What? You are not one and the same???? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Thermodyne]

atomannj said:
Hey have any of you ever heard of Galactic Civilizations? That is thru Strategy First as well and it was a great CIV3 in space game. I'm not worried. I can't wait for SE:V. Just make sure that what ever you do you do not cheese out like MMO3.



Ya, I heard of it, even bought a copy. I was not impressed! I still have an account, and IMHO the game sucked. But then my opinion could be biased because of the Space Empires series.

Personally, I think that their forum system was a PITA. And I doubt that they are in any way prepared for the kind of fan support that Space Empires will bring with it. I think we will be in for quite an adjustment.

[Instar]

I kinda suspected this for a while now...
Hopefully everything will work out.

My question is when we can expect SF to make an announcement...

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Thermodyne said:

atomannj said:
Hey have any of you ever heard of Galactic Civilizations? That is thru Strategy First as well and it was a great CIV3 in space game. I'm not worried. I can't wait for SE:V. Just make sure that what ever you do you do not cheese out like MMO3.



Ya, I heard of it, even bought a copy. I was not impressed! I still have an account, and IMHO the game sucked. But then my opinion could be biased because of the Space Empires series.

Personally, I think that their forum system was a PITA. And I doubt that they are in any way prepared for the kind of fan support that Space Empires will bring with it. I think we will be in for quite an adjustment.



You're right. GalCiv SUX big time. I've never even visited the forums or even bought the full game, just played the demo..... lasted lass than ~30 minutes on my HD. A record low. It was just too fricking unclear. Research was weird, space travel didn't feel right, systems weren't used well, and that's about all I can remember from the single game I started (but never finished) before deinstalling the program.

[Thermodyne]

StrategiaInUltima said:

Thermodyne said:

atomannj said:
Hey have any of you ever heard of Galactic Civilizations? That is thru Strategy First as well and it was a great CIV3 in space game. I'm not worried. I can't wait for SE:V. Just make sure that what ever you do you do not cheese out like MMO3.



Ya, I heard of it, even bought a copy. I was not impressed! I still have an account, and IMHO the game sucked. But then my opinion could be biased because of the Space Empires series.

Personally, I think that their forum system was a PITA. And I doubt that they are in any way prepared for the kind of fan support that Space Empires will bring with it. I think we will be in for quite an adjustment.



You're right. GalCiv SUX big time. I've never even visited the forums or even bought the full game, just played the demo..... lasted lass than ~30 minutes on my HD. A record low. It was just too fricking unclear. Research was weird, space travel didn't feel right, systems weren't used well, and that's about all I can remember from the single game I started (but never finished) before deinstalling the program.



As I recall, it was a cross between a first person shooter and a treasure hunt, with a tiny little bit of 4X thrown in just to confuse things. And lets not forget the stupid RP stuff. Not my kind of game at all.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I never even got AROUND to combat..... played only 10 or 20 short turns or so before quitting and deinstalling.

[Psyringe]

Wow, this discussion finally got me out of lurking after 2 years. Let me contribute some facts that I think are still missing.

About Stratey First: As has already been said, they are controlled by the bankruptcy courts, however they have been bought by Silverstar Holdings recently and thus have a chance to get back on their feet now. However, if Aaron's decision was based on GalCiv's success (as Tim Brooks has hinted), then he really should have asked GalCiv's developers about their experiences with SF first. Actually, SF had very little to do with GalCivs success, which was mostly fueled by the MoO3 disaster, a GalCiv flyer inside the MoO3 box, Brad Wardell's publicity, and word of mouth spreading fast. Many games stores would not have ordered GalCiv from Strat First if their customers, on returning MoO3, hadn't asked them for it (because they had heard about the game from other sources). So Strat First's contribution to GalCiv's success was basically to provide the game for a market that already wanted it. The chances that this special situation can be repeated for Space Empires V are very slim.

Also, Strategy First did *not* pay the developers of GalCiv any royalties. There are also many other developers around the world who still wait to see a single dollar of their royalties from Strat First. Personally, I would be very careful to get into the business with them - not only because they went bankrupt once (this can happen, sometimes even when you *did* everything right), but because of their attitude to their developers during this period. Some developers still complain that they have not been warned about the problems and that they have plainly been lied to by Strat First officials. I know that people can learn from their mistakes and I honestly don't know whether the same people are still involved in SF's management, but based on their previous record I'd really be careful.

That said, I think that Aaron really *does* have a chance to strike (or have struck) a good deal with Strat First. They must be rather desperately trying to rebuild their reputation among the customers (many of whom are disappointed by Strat First because of games which have not been properly patched or finished due to developers revoking their contracts after receiving no money from SF). Enlisting the developer of a successful, established 4x sci-fi strategy series might be just what SF needs now. This should give (have given) Aaron a lot of leverage in the discussions with them, and I hope he used that.

Let's hope for the best.

Also, as a response to the last posts above: I think there's really no need for bashing GalCiv here, as there's really next to no connection between GalCiv and Strat First despite the fact that Strat First distributed the game into retail (not via digital download, this was done by Stardock themselves) and refused to pay royalties. Also, I think that Space Empires and GalCiv are both very good examples of the 4x genre, and they complement each other nicely because they focus on different aspects. Personally, I'm glad we have both games.

[Desert Fox]

I think Aaron would be better off seeking out Stardock and its TotalGaming.net subscription service to distribute the game. Strategy First is not very stable at all. This company that publishes SEIV and other titles is not very good at all. Never sold in stores or downloadable makes it very costly for anyone to get it in other countries. A South Africa mate of mine has to pay 65.00 to get SEIV.

This bashing Galciv is silly, two entirely different games at least on how they look and play. I LOVE both games and I find any negative comments toward Galciv or the GREAT Company who produced it is damn right stupid. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Both games are outstanding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sharpnel Games is not a very good company at all as many of their games are not, well popular. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif No offense to this fine site..

[Richard]

Desert Fox said:
I think Aaron would be better off seeking out Stardock and its TotalGaming.net subscription service to distribute the game. Strategy First is not very stable at all. This company that publishes SEIV and other titles is not very good at all. Never sold in stores or downloadable makes it very costly for anyone to get it in other countries. A South Africa mate of mine has to pay 65.00 to get SEIV.

This bashing Galciv is silly, two entirely different games at least on how they look and play. I LOVE both games and I find any negative comments toward Galciv or the GREAT Company who produced it is damn right stupid. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Both games are outstanding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sharpnel Games is not a very good company at all as many of their games are not, well popular. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif No offense to this fine site..



Well your entitled to your opinion, most of our games our multi award winning games in the industry and sell very well.

As far as the pricing issue, we did have some issues with pricing overseas when SE:IV first came out but those have long since been resolved. You can get it shipped in 3-7 days for 4.80 in shipping costs. We also have retail and mail order alternatives for many countries. In fact we have the largest non traditional retail distribution network of any online publisher.

Just wanted to set the record straight on that.

[tesco samoa]

you just need to start selling the game in canadian dollars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Derek]

Psyringe said:

Actually, SF had very little to do with GalCivs success, which was mostly fueled by the MoO3 disaster, a GalCiv flyer inside the MoO3 box, Brad Wardell's publicity, and word of mouth spreading fast. Many games stores would not have ordered GalCiv from Strat First if their customers, on returning MoO3, hadn't asked them for it (because they had heard about the game from other sources). So Strat First's contribution to GalCiv's success was basically to provide the game for a market that already wanted it. The chances that this special situation can be repeated for Space Empires V are very slim.



Well, we could always pay someone to develop a MoO4 which is even worse than MoO3 (not sure if that is really possible, making something worse than MoO3, that is...)

I'm still just hoping, as the Marine going to Iraq in June, that SE5 is released before then!

Dave

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Psyringe said:
Wow, this discussion finally got me out of lurking after 2 years.



Hello then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Thermodyne]

Psyringe said:


Also, as a response to the last posts above: I think there's really no need for bashing GalCiv here, as there's really next to no connection between GalCiv and Strat First despite the fact that Strat First distributed the game into retail (not via digital download, this was done by Stardock themselves) and refused to pay royalties. Also, I think that Space Empires and GalCiv are both very good examples of the 4x genre, and they complement each other nicely because they focus on different aspects. Personally, I'm glad we have both games.



Welcome to the forum. Perhaps you would care to elaborate on you 1st post defense of GC? What you call bashing, I call a waste of my money.

[boran_blok]

Now this might be a bit ignorant, but cant he use both ?
(Shrapnel online, strategy first offline)

Those two markets are so far apart,

And imho yes, SE5 will not sell as much retail, ppls will see the screens and the not too flashy graphics and wont buy it.
One biiig suggestion for aron, if you go retail, make sure to include a VERY VERY GOOD tutorial, otherwise ppls will get it, open box, play it, dont get what the hell is going on and just quit.

[AMF]

boran_blok said:
One biiig suggestion for aron, if you go retail, make sure to include a VERY VERY GOOD tutorial, otherwise ppls will get it, open box, play it, dont get what the hell is going on and just quit.



Yeah, a good tutorial is absolutely vital for the retail market I beleive. I confess, I'm one of those typical dorks who assumes that the game will spoonfeed me as soon as I start it up the first time, and when I did that with SE4 the first time I admit to being lost for a while - until I actually read the manual and did the tutorial - and by that point you've probably already lost a fair percentage of the people....

[Hrothgar]

I want to add my thanks to Shrapnel for their amazing offer not only to allow the SEIV forum to continue, but to allow SEV to be represented here as well. It's incredibly generous of them, and demonstrates a high regard for their customers. Personally, it makes it more likely that I'll purchase a Shrapnel game in which I'm only marginally interested, simply as an expression of support for such a dedicated company.

I'm disappointed that Malfador decided to go elsewhere, but I wish them no ill. I may even buy SEV, although it won't be an "automatic" purchase as it would have been previously. We'll see.

p.s. "To each his own," but I like GalCiv also. It's a different approach to 4X, but we don't need a bunch of SE clones--each game is good at what it does. I agree, however, that, if GalCiv's success played a major role in luring Malfador to Strategy First, they may be seriously disappointed. It's my impression that the impetus behind GalCiv's success was not due to Strategy First, but to the community of GalCiv fans, originating in GalCiv's OS2 days and incremented through the GalCiv forums where you could purchase the beta and participate in the development of the game--receiving a copy of the finished product when it appeared. That's what drew me in, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I don't know if Malfador is prepared to make that kind of effort--tracking the demands/suggestions of a huge number of ad hoc beta-testers and deciding what should be incorporated into the game.

[Fyron]

I don't know if Malfador is prepared to make that kind of effort--tracking the demands/suggestions of a huge number of ad hoc beta-testers and deciding what should be incorporated into the game.

Why not? MM has had betas for all of their games since at least SEIV. Not sure about SEIII... The SEV beta will be starting in under a month!

[Instar]

boran_blok said:
Now this might be a bit ignorant, but cant he use both ?
(Shrapnel online, strategy first offline)

Those two markets are so far apart,

And imho yes, SE5 will not sell as much retail, ppls will see the screens and the not too flashy graphics and wont buy it.
One biiig suggestion for aron, if you go retail, make sure to include a VERY VERY GOOD tutorial, otherwise ppls will get it, open box, play it, dont get what the hell is going on and just quit.


From a legal point of view, it could work I guess, if the right partnership deals were made. But realistically, probably not.

[Rasorow]

OK, I have read what everyone has said and have owned and still own registered copies of every SE version since SE II and like everyone else here have some concerns.

1. I am concerned that this will be mutilated by Strat 1st seeking to make it more commercial, I dont like them or the games they have published in the past.

2. I am concerned with this going mainstream that the series will lose its way in the attempt to garner broader support.

Point blank if either of those two things happen I will move on (while still playing my copies of SEIV).

Having said that I am re-assured that Aaron is still in control. I also want to express that aside from some MMORPGs, anymore my games are bought from Shrapnel and other similar online publishers. I don't buy retail anymore.

Shrapnel,

Keep up the good work, I will keep checking the site for more games. You already sold me on Dom2 and I have tried others as well. Hope to see more from you!.


Rasorow

[Azselendor]

There was a beta test team for SE3, However all of those folks have moved on by now.

[Psyringe]

Thermodyne said:

Welcome to the forum. Perhaps you would care to elaborate on you 1st post defense of GC?



Hmm, I'd like to, but as I said, this thread isn't really the place for a discussion about the quality of GalCiv. This thread deals with Aaron's decision to choose Strat First as his distributor for Space Empires V, and neither Aaron nor Strat First had anything to do with the quality of GalCiv.

So I hold myself off from going into details here, and instead just state that both games have many strengths as well as some weaknesses, and I'm very glad that we have them both. Even better, they continue to thrive and develop - Space Empires V will be out this year, and the public beta of GalCiv 2 will start this month. What more can we wish for? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If you're interested in a more thorough comparison of the two games, just pm me, or perhaps point me to another thread where this doesn't feel off-topic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Azselendor]

I jsut cross my mind that shrapnel most likely does contracts game-by-game, so in reality there is a chance future SE games could return to Shrapnel

[Will]

Klvino [ORB] said:
I jsut cross my mind that shrapnel most likely does contracts game-by-game, so in reality there is a chance future SE games could return to Shrapnel


Ah, but does Strategy First do so? If the contract says SF has exclusive rights to publish the next five titles of the series, then it doesn't matter if Shrapnel does contracts per-game; Strategy First gets SEV, SEVI, SEVII, SEVIII, and SEIX. Only after all that can MM and Shrapnel make the triumphant return with SEX.

Ok, ok, I just had to do it. Ignore this entire post, I only made it for the punchline (such as it is).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[AMF]

WEll, I just bought Dom II, so I'll be able to weigh in on that at some point...what a fool I am. There goes the rest of the year I think...

[DeadZone]

Will said:
Ah, but does Strategy First do so? If the contract says SF has exclusive rights to publish the next five titles of the series, then it doesn't matter if Shrapnel does contracts per-game; Strategy First gets SEV, SEVI, SEVII, SEVIII, and SEIX. Only after all that can MM and Shrapnel make the triumphant return with SEX.



Doesn't matter what SFs policy is, as the deal has to be agreed mutually, meaning that Aaron would hold most of the playing cards (he is providing the money maker), meaning he would only have agreed if he was happy enough with it

Plus most contracts of this sort will have a break deal incase either side decide the contract is no longer worth it

[Captain Kwok]

Also note that MM is covering all development costs as well, so that alone gives him better $ and control than the usual deal - and the contract I'd say would be for SE:V only and not future releases.

[Azselendor]

In order for SFI to have a contract with MM for several games already, that means they will mroe than likely be investing into the development of the rest of the series. Similar to how Ubisoft, EA games, and such has been running

I think it's more likely its game-by-game.

[David E. Gervais]

I don't think that Development Funding is part of SFI's business model any more. They off-loaded all their development to MiST Land awhile ago. Although I get the impression that they still have 'creative control' on those projects. (more like an 'if you build it (for us) we guarantee publishing' sort of deal.)

So, I wouldn't worry about 'future' products from Aaron, everything will depend on how well sales of SE5 goes and the results of that are still a long ways off. Personally I think SE5 is going to be a roaring success.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

I don't mean to revive this thread or anything, or to pore salt on an open wound, but one of the developers behind GalCiv had some very enlightening things to say about how strategy first stroked them out of a lot of money.


Given that Strategy First didn't pay royalties they owed us for most of the retail sales of Galactic Civilizations worldwide, I hope they have better luck with Strategy First than we've had.



There is more, in post #7, he explains how they ripped them off.

LINK (http://www.galciv.com/forum.asp?BID=GF&ID=201477#201675)

In a nut shell he said that SF was a middle man and that they kept most of the revenue generated from the world wide sales of Gal Civ. They basically cheated Stardock and laid claim to the title as if they owned it.

I would be heart sick if Strategy First robbed Malfador the way they robbed Stardock. Blind.

[Randallw]

How dare they criticise SE! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. If that is the kind of illeducated people SF attracts we are better off without them. When SE5 comes out we must be careful to keep Intel to ourselves. If they are worthy of our company they can find us themselves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

In my eyes the reason why MOO comes up in conversations and SE doesn't according to these guys, is that though SE is better than MOO, it is a niche game and therefore doesn't attract that much attention to itself. Moreover, there has been just about no marketing at all for SE.

And if S1st both
-ripped money off StarDock AND
-is bankrupt,
I guess that they have a REALLY poor accounting deptment. I mean, you withhold quite substantial amounts of money from a developer and then you go bankrupt?

[RudyHuxtable]

Yea, THAT takes skill.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

And that skill is rare. They could market it, hire themselves out to make companies go bankrupt for tax purposes!

[Tim Brooks]

StrategiaInUltima said:
Moreover, there has been just about no marketing at all for SE.



Really. Where did you get this information? I would like to know why you "think" this?

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Apart from SEIV/Shrapnel sites, I have seen NO marketing AT ALL for the game. No ads, banners, whatever.

OK, so I may be wrong, but at least SE has received less makretingn than MOO, and MOO is more of a mainstream game.

[Azselendor]

Aside from reviews and the banners of Shrapnel-aligned websites, I haven't seen ads for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

But with this latest revelation about Strategy First.. One word comes to mind:

Enron

It actually reminds me to the dot com bubble burst too. I had a huge number of friends who had a 3rd party handle advertising on their site and paid them for those banner placements and then refused to pay the fees to the web master citing bankruptcy. Nearly all of them are website-less now or struggling.


As for GalCiv2, The reviews I saw of that game and the screenshots provided in those reviews are two seperate things. I felt like I was listening to a bible thumper in the reviews. I would give a game more serious consideration if it had a harsher, more realistic review. Hell, if I could I would give them. I'm yet to see a copy of GalCiv outside a last-chance, dent'n'bend bargin bin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm also yet to see more than one copy of the game at the same time in the same store.

This is the only time I'm glad bush's new bankruptcy law will prevent a company from escaping its debts.

And God, Satan, and Dick Cheney forbid that SFI Screws MM, and they'll be hell for them to pay from all of us.

[tesco samoa]

Klvino... Strategy First is in Montreal.

So that law carries no weight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Richard]

StrategiaInUltima said:
Apart from SEIV/Shrapnel sites, I have seen NO marketing AT ALL for the game. No ads, banners, whatever.

OK, so I may be wrong, but at least SE has received less makretingn than MOO, and MOO is more of a mainstream game.



We have done a ton of marketing for SE:IV but over time you spend less marketing effort on a 4+ year old game. Just because folks spend a lot of money on advertising doesn't mean it's smart. We have run ads in the major gaming magazines before but have found them to have little impac on sales. We ran banners for SE:IV for years on most of the major gaming sites, that is until the ROI on banner ads went through the floor.

We have also used a lot of non traditional methods to market SE:IV and all of our games. I won't go into all of them because they are trade secrets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[David E. Gervais]

David takes out his 'SFI rumor-mill gossip coin' and flips it,.. "WTH? Tails again! I'm getting tired of seeing only one side of the 'coin'"

I sure wish SFI would spill the beans and let the public know what their side of the story is,.. I find it strange that they go through serious finacial trouble (mainly due to in-house development and 'government contracts' forcing them to 'Create-new-jobs' in order to stay in business), and just when things are looking bright an 'outside developer' (who shall remain nameless in order not to spread bad news or tarnish their reputation) milks SFI for over $800,000 and that consequences of that saw 108 people loose their jobs and a number of 'other' developers saw their royalties seemingly go up in smoke. I understand their frustration, but there is absolutely no evidence that SFI is not trying to 'make-good' on those contracts. There has been no 'bankruptcy' declared or contracts deemed null and void. SFI filed for 'Bankruptcy-protection' which means that they have the chance to do everything in their power to make things right. getting rid of the in-house development (cash monkey) has greatly improved SFI's financial standing, in december they started showing a positive cash flow, it may not be enough to pay off 'ALL' their debts, but it is a step in the right direction.

Here's a scenario,.. in 3-4 months when things are going good and SFI manages to 'make-good' on their old contracts will those developers that are currently fueling 'negative press' be able to go back in time and say oops? Nope, and what is worse, never getting paid or being paid late. I think that if SFI was the 'Bad Company' that everyone makes it out to be they could have thrown in the towel long ago (when they were actually showing 'millions' of dollars in profit) and taken the money and ran. the fact that they are doing everything in their power to 'make-good' on their contracts says alot about integrty. The fact that they have also refused to enter the 'character-assination' game and bad mouth the people responsible for their financial woes is another sign of integrity.

Yes they have had extreme financial difficulties, but that was not by design or any mallicious intent. Stardock is as much a victim as SFI, so are many other fine developers. SFI is doing everything in it's power to turn things around and I for one believe they will succeed. One sign that they are succeedign at turning things around is this news..

Silverstar to Aquire SFI (http://www.silverstarholdings.com/press/02-28-05.html)

This is not bad news, this is good news, it will help the company by opening up new avenues an in turn make future expansion into new markets available.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm really sick if hearing one side of the coin. and everything I said here is only a tiny part of the 'flip-side' I'm not in a position to know all the details, but what I know goes a long way to explaining why I'm optimistic about the future of SE5.

Nuf said,..

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

EDIT: this is not in response to Richard's post but to the negative press that has been spilled throughout this thread.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I really had no idea that another company squeezed $800k out of S1st..... my apologies to the company. Here's hoping SEV will generate enough money for them to release more games so that they can pay off their debts.

[Tim Brooks]

Joint_Chief_StrategiaInUltima said:
Apart from SEIV/Shrapnel sites, I have seen NO marketing AT ALL for the game. No ads, banners, whatever.



Wow! That's amazing, and proves the point doesn't it. If we spent tens of thousands on those things and you didn't see them, then how effective are they?

Mainstream games that do well at retail have to be advertised differently than niche products -- even niche products at retail must be advertised differently. A publisher who pays $18,000 for a full page ad in CGW, to reach (based on CGW's stats) less than 15,000 people who are actally interested in the game, well they are just setting themselves up for bankruptcy, er disappoinment.

The reality is, I would bet that those that read CGW and are interested in a niche game with art budgets in the $ thousands (not $ millions!), difficult interface, and micromanagement features are way less than 15,000 people.

As for banner ads, well, they just don't work anymore. They haven't for over 4 years now. When we first started in 1999, we could advertise by banners, pay $200 - $500 for 300,000 impressions and get a click thru rate of 7.5% (that brought us about 22,000 clicks which turns into about 330 sales). Now the sites worth advertising on want $8,000 for those 300,000 impressions and the click thru rates are under .5% (that brings us less than 1500 clicks which turns into about 23 sales). So yea, lets do that!

We do alot of marketing, in non-tradtional ways, that get us the returns for our investments. How did you hear about SEIV? I know we have run polls before asking this question, and the top answer is word of mouth (a friend told me, I saw it in a forum or user group discussion, my friend at work was playing it, etc.). One of the hardest things we have to contend with regarding developers is to explain that word of mouth just doesn't happen. Someone just didn't wake up one morning and go, "I have a giant urge to go discuss Space Empires IV - I've never heard of it before, don't even know what it is, but hey, I'll just go talk about it." They talk about it because they FOUND out about it. And that just doesn't happen. That is marketing that gets games to that point.

We don't discuss the many ways we market, because our competition isn't there - you won't find SF there - and we don't want then there. Hell, we want our competition paying $18,000 for ads that don't reach their market. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[NullAshton]

I think I discovered SE when searching for free games. Looked at it, decided to try it, liked it but didn't want to buy it because it was shareware. Then space empires 4 came, and I got it!

[Baron Munchausen]

Klvino [ORB] said:
Aside from reviews and the banners of Shrapnel-aligned websites, I haven't seen ads for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

But with this latest revelation about Strategy First.. One word comes to mind:

Enron

It actually reminds me to the dot com bubble burst too. I had a huge number of friends who had a 3rd party handle advertising on their site and paid them for those banner placements and then refused to pay the fees to the web master citing bankruptcy. Nearly all of them are website-less now or struggling.


As for GalCiv2, The reviews I saw of that game and the screenshots provided in those reviews are two seperate things. I felt like I was listening to a bible thumper in the reviews. I would give a game more serious consideration if it had a harsher, more realistic review. Hell, if I could I would give them. I'm yet to see a copy of GalCiv outside a last-chance, dent'n'bend bargin bin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm also yet to see more than one copy of the game at the same time in the same store.

This is the only time I'm glad bush's new bankruptcy law will prevent a company from escaping its debts.

And God, Satan, and Dick Cheney forbid that SFI Screws MM, and they'll be hell for them to pay from all of us.



Enron is a recent example on a larger scale, but Strategy 1st being a gaming company it reminds me of the shenanigans around TSR when Dungeons & Dragons was the 'Next Big Thing'. He was screwed right & left by people who wanted to live the 'corporate lifestyle' just like those dot-con guys a couple decades later. His wife was actually bargaining with 'her half' of his shares in the company behind his back while their divorce was in progress. Gygax own website seems to be down or inaccessible, but here are some other accounts I've managed to find:

http://www.atlasofadventure.com/Archive/gygaxfaq.asp

http://www.rubycovenant.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=830&start=0

I imagine that something very similar going on at Strategy 1st could produce just those 'impossible' results of non-payment to developers and bankruptcy at the same time. All the money would be going into limousines, 'expense accounts' for free travel around the world, salaried 'jobs' for relatives who never show up to work, and etc. just like happened at TSR. This is not looking good for MM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Atrocities]

I have done a lot more looking and David is correct. If Malfador has confidence in SFI, then so do I. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Greybeard]

I originally found SEIV through one of the game download sites (CNet or ZdNet?). I like strategy games and found the demo on the site. After a game or two, I went to Shrapnel and ordered the game.

In my opinion, free downloads of the demos is the best way to reach those who like this type of game.

[Renegade 13]

I agree Greybeard. I found out about the SE series by doing a search on the internet for "space strategy games". Found the demo for SEIII, got it, bought the game. That's why I bought SEIV, because I liked the genre and had previous experience with the game. And to be honest, how many people actually like 'space strategy games'???

[Thermodyne]

I bumped into SE II shortly after going online for the first time. Took a while to figure it out then spent a lot of late nights because I was sure that tem more turns would win the game. Then I bought a full copy and spent a lot of sleepless weekends because I just knew that 10 more turns would win the game. Any of you been around long enough to remember resolving combat between two really big SE II fleets on an old 75 MHz system? When SE III came out I quickly bought a copy and spent way too much time with it. Soon after I stumbled across the old Borg Forum, and have been addicted to multiplayer ever since. When SE IV came out, it took me a long time to warm up to it. I think the missing right clicks really took me a long time to accept. And the first release had a lot of problems running on the systems I had back then. It actually seemed to run more reliably on my older SDram systems. And I never really got a good with SE4 as I did with SE III.

[DarkHorse]

Renegade 13 said:
. . . And to be honest, how many people actually like 'space strategy games'???



I think that MOO3 proved, by all the hype and anticipation it generated, that there is a good market for a deep, well developed space strategy game.

Unfortunately, MOO3 certainly wasn't that game. I'm cheering for SE:V to fill the void. Hopefully, it can generate enough good press to build anticipation and (re)build the market.

[Annette]

Greybeard said:
I originally found SEIV through one of the game download sites (CNet or ZdNet?).


Marketing.

Greybeard said:
...found the demo on the site. After a game or two, I went to Shrapnel and ordered the game.



Marketing.

Renegade 13 said:
I found out about the SE series by doing a search on the internet for "space strategy games".


Marketing.

[Captain Kwok]

If you're keeping score that's 3 for marketing and 0 for dumb luck.

[Annette]

Captain Kwok said:
If you're keeping score that's 3 for marketing and 0 for dumb luck.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[douglas]

I found out about SE by seeing my older brother playing SE III (unregistered) and asking something along the lines of "What's that? It looks interesting." I have no idea how he found it.

[Will]

Captain Kwok said:
If you're keeping score that's 3 for marketing and 0 for dumb luck.


Well, I can't find a user "marketing", and dumbluck (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=1260&page=18&what=showme mbers) hasn't even posted to this thread. I think it's a bit unfair to be keeping score against him when he hasn't even posted! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I think what the Shrapnel folks are trying to get across is that it's better to make it easy for people *looking* for a game to find at Shrapnel. This works infinitely (or at least, a great deal) better than Grand Spamming people who couldn't give a damn. It's better to quietly release playable demos to free download sites, and anywhere that will offer free or subsidized bandwidth for hosting mirrors. It's better for them to create the atmosphere they did in the forums, effectively making an army of salespeople and tech support. And although the games might not get huge recognition (ie, front page) in any of the game review publications, Shrapnel games ARE in those publications. So, invest a lot of time into making contacts within the industry, slowly spreading awareness of a game for "free", instead of investing a lot of money that could be better spent making more games.

And really, in the end, it looks like the strategy is to market the games in a way that makes everyone *think* they stumbled onto a treasure trove by... *drumroll...* Pure Dumb Luck. Very sneaky devious, and I like it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hope I didn't give away too many secrets! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Psyringe]

Hi David,

hey, I don't think we've seen "just tails" in this thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Look at my post a while back, I explicitly mentioned the buyout by Silverstar and that that's a good thing for SFI. No one here has an interested to badmouth anyone - it's just that many people are deeply concerned about the future of the Space Empires series, because they love the work of you two. I think, based on SFI's history, these concerns have to be expected. After all, *if* something goes wrong in the end, is a small developer like Malfador really in a position to finance or occupy itself with lengthy lawsuits?

I'd really appreciate if SFI were a little more open about what caused their problems. The explanation that an outside developer milked 800.000$ from them comes as a total surprise to me, and at the moment I don't really see how this could have happened. I just don't see any developer involved who even was in a position to demand that much money from SFI. (SFI didn't have so many successful outside developers besides Stardock, and Stardock didn't do such a thing, they are the ones who didn't get paid). To be honest, to me the explanation that SFI's cash-monkey in-house development used up all this money to produce games that didn't nearly generate enough revenue, sounds much more likely. Also I wonder, if SFI's financial breakdown can be explained so easily by this so far rather mysterious third party, then why weren't the developers who waited (and are still waiting) for their royalties told about it? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but please understand, from my perspective the details as of now don't fit together very well.

Anyway, the decision to go with SFI has been made, and so we can't do anything else but keeping our fingers crossed that things will turn out the way you hope. And that's exactly what I'll do. Fortunately, there's no one making ridiculous announcements like "SFI are eeeevil, I won't buy anything from them", so even if people are skeptical about SFI's trustworthiness, this won't hurt sales.

I certainly will buy SEV, no matter who distributes it. What I heard about the game so far sounds great. I just hope that you and Aaron really get the money you deserve for your outstanding, dedicated work.

[Unknown_Enemy]

It seems to me that if Malfador want to change of distributor, well, that's his business. As a grognard, I'll still check Shrapnell, Matrix and Stardock on a regular basis anyway.

However, I do question the wisdom of going from direct sales to channel sales for a niche product. As I recall the mass of sales for Gal Civ were done via resellers (their 100000 copies sold) but the money came almost exclusively from direct sales. I hope to be wrong, but I fear Malfador is heading for a world of pain.

[Brad Wardell]

I've heard many excuses from Strategy First why they couldn't pay us at Stardock the hundreds of thousands of dollars in royalties, but never have I heard anything about some rogue third party developer screwing them of $800k or whatever.

I do NOT think Strategy First is a dishonest company. I actually like the people who work there. But Strategy First has a LOT of people that they owe money to. Millions of dollars are owed to various people and companies.

With Galactic Civilizations, Stardock developed the game on its own. It did most of the box design. It did most of the marketing. It handled virtually all the support. It made the demo. It distributed the demo onto sites. It created and maintained the website for the game. It handled the distribution of game updates (including paying for all the bandwidth).

In short, Strategy First's contribution to the success of Galactic Civilizations was minimal IMO. They essentially took our game, put it in a box, and turned it over to Encore to distribute into the stores. And then only have paid a fraction of the royalties that they owe. Which we find pretty maddening considering how much of their job we did for them.

I think they have made a good faith attempt to try to pay us what they can. But at Stardock, we don't mess with royalty money owed to others. When we have collected money that is to be paid as a royalty to a third party, it is seperated from our general fund precisely so that we don't get tempted to spend money that should be reserved for third parties. That's what Strategy First should have done in my opinion. But they didn't.

And Stardock isn't the only ones who were hurt by Strategy First's financial short-falls. And there's no reason to think that the same thing won't happen again.

I just hope the author of Space Empires V isn't choosing publishers for the wrong reasons. If he thinks that Galactic Civilizations was successful thanks to Strategy First, he's wrong IMO.

Galactic Civilizations succeeded because:

(a) It's a good game.
(b) It happened to come out right when Master of Orion 3 came out which was not well received by fans.
(c) It had very good word of mouth
(d) It got very good reviews (which, btw, Stardock was the one who sent the game out to most of the reviewers who reviewed the game)
(e) Its developer provided a year+ of FREE updates to the game to keep it fresh and new.
(f) The distributor, Encore, was able to get it into lots of stores adn thus capitalize and A,B,C,D and E.

That isn't to say that Strategy First won't pay the Space Empires V developer. I have no idea. But if he's counting on them to make Space Empires V a "big hit" then past performance should be considered.

-
Brad Wardell
Designer of Galactic Civilizations
http://www.galciv.com

Incidentally, for Galactic Civilizations II we're publishing it ourselves and have had no trouble getting contracts for most of the major retail stores negotiated.

[sachmo]

Richard said:

StrategiaInUltima said:
Apart from SEIV/Shrapnel sites, I have seen NO marketing AT ALL for the game. No ads, banners, whatever.

OK, so I may be wrong, but at least SE has received less makretingn than MOO, and MOO is more of a mainstream game.




We have also used a lot of non traditional methods to market SE:IV and all of our games. I won't go into all of them because they are trade secrets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif



No need to spill the beans.
I have personally sold at least 3 copies of SEIV for you...word of mouth works best!

That, and good reviews from people who care. Like underdogs.org...

[mac5732]

newest rumor/truth, Sega just bought out Creative Assembly, (There goes the Total War games down the tubes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif )

[Desert Fox]

I agree with you completely Psyringe!

I am glad to see Brad stopping in. One of the things I enjoy about you Brad is your entrenched in the community more then I have ever seen any game company owner or CEO has in the past. I have been around this industry from the very beginnings. Talking about the early and late 70's.

[boran_blok]

Hell, this looks like it's going to be a bad choice, I'd say if you can change back, go ahead, but in the end it's your game.

[Blueentity]

I am intrigued by the discussion of marketing in this thread. How did I “discover” this game? Back when I had a boring chemical sales job, a weekly search on CNET’s Downloads netted SE 3. Downloaded demo, loved it, sent demo to all family & friends who enjoy that type of game, eventually bought full game. What marketing was that? Most of the games at that time on CNET were garbage, so a few lines of description in that sea of trash was nothing that any marketer to be proud of.

In the “business” I was an “inside sales” contact. Already bought product, and likely to buy again, as are most of us who are fans of SE. I received an email from MM when one of the SEIV demos came out, downloaded gold demo from CNET (again sent to all family & friends who enjoy this type of game). Liked it even better than SE III, bought it and made sure all said family and friends bought a copy of their own to stop sponging off of my copy and to support Mr. Hall. With all due respect, how are those 10 sales a plus for anyone’s marketing department? Inside sales are easy to close.

Now where does marketing come in? After enjoying many hours learning not to right click in SEIV, I read the book that came with the game. The other book-not the manual-the sales one. It was near Christmas and relatives were inquiring what I wanted. Dungeon Odyssey caught my attention. So off to the Shrapnel web page. That’s marketing. Getting someone to buy your product that would not have otherwise. Kudos to whoever designed that book. You got the sale.

I wonder how much cross-over Strategy First is expecting to get from the SE audience, or if their marketing is even considering it.

[Captain Kwok]

Based on Brad's comments, many of his feelings on why his game did well should be consistent with SE:V when it's released, so perhaps SE:V will do well regardless of who publishes it.

[Spoo]

Captain Kwok said:
Based on Brad's comments, many of his feelings on why his game did well should be consistent with SE:V when it's released, so perhaps SE:V will do well regardless of who publishes it.



Yeah, but what if it does well and Malfador still doesn't get any money fron SF? That's what I'm worried about.

[NullAshton]

Spoo said:

Captain Kwok said:
Based on Brad's comments, many of his feelings on why his game did well should be consistent with SE:V when it's released, so perhaps SE:V will do well regardless of who publishes it.



Yeah, but what if it does well and Malfador still doesn't get any money fron SF? That's what I'm worried about.



Then we'll sue Strategy First for the money.

[Unknown_Enemy]

NullAshton said:

Then we'll sue Strategy First for the money.



Should have asked Brad about that part. It seems Stardock had its fair (and unfair) part of publishers going out of business. If you believe you'll get a cent from a company going out of business, please tell me the name of the business you're running, I'll make sure you never get a cent from me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

[Puke]

Captain Kwok said:
Based on Brad's comments, many of his feelings on why his game did well should be consistent with SE:V when it's released, so perhaps SE:V will do well regardless of who publishes it.



while it might sell well, it remains to be seen wither MM will be paid. Stardock distributed and collected revenue for its own product online, so the only thing they lost out on because of SF was the retail and mail order sales.

MM does not have their own distribution channel, and has not published downloadables in the past. therefore, they stand to lose a lot more if SF does not come through.

Class action from the creditors could potentially freeze SF's assets, but that isnt really good for anyone. It basically assures you will only get a small fraction of what you are owed, if anything, and then will have to negotiate a new publishing deal with someone else...

[Azselendor]

You know, SF needs to clear up this whole matter once and for all.

[Possum]

Desert Fox said:
I agree with you completely Psyringe!

I am glad to see Brad stopping in. One of the things I enjoy about you Brad is your entrenched in the community more then I have ever seen any game company owner or CEO has in the past. I have been around this industry from the very beginnings. Talking about the early and late 70's.



But there were no computer games back then, except Pong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I know, because I was there, and played Pong, (in the bowling alley, with my mother, may she rest in peace).

So I figure you must be talking boardgames. You remember SPI, then? Big Jim Dunnagan? (Dunnigan? Hell, I don't remember how he spelled it)

What a talented group that was, at its peak. Mark Herman was, IMO, one of the 3 best boardgame designers that ever drew breath. Mech War 2, that awesome Pacific War carrier sim, Central America...great work all.

Wonder what happened to all those guys? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[spoon]

Possum said:
So I figure you must be talking boardgames. You remember SPI, then? Big Jim Dunnagan? (Dunnigan? Hell, I don't remember how he spelled it)

Wonder what happened to all those guys? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif



Just heard that one of SPI's cofounders (Redmond A. Simonsen) died about a week ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[capnq]

Possum said:
So I figure you must be talking boardgames. You remember SPI, then? Big Jim Dunnagan? (Dunnigan? Hell, I don't remember how he spelled it)

What a talented group that was, at its peak. Mark Herman was, IMO, one of the 3 best boardgame designers that ever drew breath. Mech War 2, that awesome Pacific War carrier sim, Central America...great work all.

Wonder what happened to all those guys? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Redmond A. Simonson died (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/16/obituaries/16simonsen.html) recently.

[Possum]

Oh man, that's too bad. And he was only 62...I'm almost...erm, let's not think about that!

On the original topic of this thread...Odd news!

I don't think Malfador is going to get what they're looking for out of this. I wish Aaron all the best of luck, but I suspect he's going to regret this decision.

[Thermodyne]

With all the talk of the old days, and with the eminent beta test drawing a few of the old guys back into the forums, I though I’d give everyone a little trip back to the days of the Ladder. With what I had to do to get past my ISPs firewall, this might be the last time I put it up. But for your viewing pleasure here is the old SE III (SE4) Ladder.

SE Ladder (http://69.136.230.163:10085)

[dumbluck]

Captain Kwok said:
If you're keeping score that's 3 for marketing and 0 for dumb luck.



How did I get into this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I found SEIV from a review in CGW! (BIG ad dollars at work) I downloaded the demo, and, ummmm... kinda went crazy until the purchased game arrived....

A Rabid fan? Me? Surely you jest.....