Interested in a Homeworld Mod?

[RudyHuxtable]

Hey guys. I've been talking about building a Homeworld related shipset, but the more I thought about it the more I wanted a Homeworld Mod! So guess what? By golly I'm going to do it.

I'm in the infancy here, but I'm just curious as to the general interest. I'd like to make something people will play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Races to start:

Hiigarans
Imperial
Rebellion
Bentusi
Children of Kadesh
Vaygr
Turanic Raiders

Tech trees: this will require some creative thinking and I'm open to suggestions.

-Real Homeworld Maps, including major planets and regions from the games, as well as era related starting positions (hiigarans on Kharak or Hiigara depending on the era of play)

I've got some other ideas I'd like to implement.

Thoughts/Ideas/Rants/Criticisms? Hurt me.

[Combat Wombat]

About time someone does it. Make sure that the mother ships are the only ones that can do through warp-points and they carry the rest of the ships with them.

Mothership=Large Carrier
Ships=Fighters

[EaX]

great idea!

i always wanted to play as the bentusi!

[RudyHuxtable]

So all other ships would need to be considered fighters then, and the fighter bays would have to support all of those ships. What kinds of limitations would this require I wonder... ahhh I love being creative!

Explaining away warp points and the true hiigaran conflict is the only thing that's really bugging me. And I'm not extrapolating so I don't spoil it for those who've never played it. Suffice it to say that warp points don't exist in HOmeworld.

[EaX]

Mothership=Large Carrier
Ships=Fighters



The capital ships can make jumps too, when the mothership jumps the cap. (frigates, destroyers, etc) ships do the same. At least on HW1, i don't play HW2. And there's also carriers on HW.

[douglas]

As I recall, the motherships are not the only ships equipped with hyperdrives in Homeworld. Only the really small stuff like fighters, scouts, and corvettes need to load onto the mothership for each hyperspace jump. Everything from frigates on up just lines up in space to look pretty when they all jump simultaneously, and they don't even do that in multiplayer where hyperspace jumps aren't limited to transitions between missions.

[Fyron]

Combat Wombat said:
About time someone does it. Make sure that the mother ships are the only ones that can do through warp-points and they carry the rest of the ships with them.

You'll want to check out the Highliner Mod (http://www.efrafasector.com/Highmod.html) for ideas. It already does exactly this.

[Zaamon]

I think it sounds better if you make motherships and some capitalships able to open and close warp points. This can do by mounting these components.
Fighters and corvets should be carried by carriers. Some frigates can make they own jump points(mounts). This because Hiigarans have only one mothership. That is what i know.
I have HW, HW:C and HW2.

[Frederick_d_Ohlmann]

You can also make the WP opening as hull abilitie

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I've toyed with this before. One thing is that in the homeword games, planets build motherships and motherships build carriers. For this limitation I would have planets use all three materials, motherships use two and carriers use one. I'd say more, but I'm not very coherent right now.

[Zaamon]

That sounds good. That way carrier can´t build motherships, but mothership can build carriers and those what carrier can build. But it needs to think what components you use to bouild your ships. That you wont desing ships that only planets can build.

[Fyron]

That will work great for vs. human play, but the AI will never be able to handle it. It all depends on what you want out of the mod...

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I half-heartedly started a HW mod a while ago, but wuit after under 5 mins.

Fighters and Corvettes can jump too, they just need Vaygr Hyperspace Gates.

Create "comps" that are actual fighters/corvettes/frigates/capital ships from the games, but also other comps, so that you could have a Corvette not as a squadron but as a single ship, and then equipped with anti-fighter AND anti-frigate weaponry. Also, this way you could have a Corvette squadron consisting of 2 gunships and 1 pulsar. (please note: I only have HW2) Mines should be laid by corvettes only (minelayer corvettes as in the game) and the Vaygr should have some sort of "command comp" for their Command Corvette - something like ship/fleet training, combat best experience and negative sector CS interference - but then that would also help their enemy.

[Ron_Lugge]

I take it "Homeworld" is a game, not a mod where homeworlds are hundreds of times stronger than colonys?

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Homeworld, Homeworld:Cataclysm and Homeworld2 are 3D realtime space strategy games, IMO certainly worth a try. Nothing beats following a squadron of Interceptors or Pulsar Gunship Corvettes during an attack run on a Battlecruiser and two Carriers with supporting fighters and corvettes.

[RudyHuxtable]

So Strategia, why don't we work together on it? I've got a number of ideas I'd like to incorporate, and the work you've already done will be incredibly useful. Let's team up and make something every Hut fan can be proud of!

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Tiny little problem; I only did one and a half hull sizes, then thought better of it and deleted the entire thing..... but I would be most willing to help you. What do we say, I do the comps? I've got some great ideas for those..... though I must warn you, I have only got HW2, so anything from 1 or Cataclysm will have to be done by you or someone else.....

[Fyron]

Ron_Lugge said:
I take it "Homeworld" is a game, not a mod where homeworlds are hundreds of times stronger than colonys?

That mod is Proportions Mod (http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/). The basic idea in the Homeworld games is that you have lost your homeworld.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

No, in HW1 you find out that your Homeworld is not in fact your Homeworld but a planet you were banished to. In HW2 you are back home and you must fight to defend your Homeworld from an extremely dangerous threat. I don't know about Cataclysm.

[Fyron]

Never played Homeworld 2, but you do technically have no homeworld for the duration of the game in Homeworld 1, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[RudyHuxtable]

right.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

www.relic.com (http://www.relic.com)

[kaekaze]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[EaX]

On Homeworld Cataclysm, you're finally on Hiigara (i think it name is --The real homeworld--), and the enemy planets are rioting (because of your victory), etc, etc, etc, in the middle of this, a minning ship (your ship), encounters an ancient beacon, abandoned on space. The minning ship recovers the beacon and it awakens some sort of lifeform wich assimilates ships & it's crew (similar to the borg, but using nano mechanical viruses i think), so the thing (called the beast) start spreading and your old enemy tries to capture to use it as weapons, and you're on the middle of all this trying to destroy the creature before it consumes the galaxy.

[Fyron]

EaX said:
...some sort of lifeform wich assimilates ships & it's crew (similar to the borg, but using nano mechanical viruses i think)...

Isn't that precisely the Borg? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[RudyHuxtable]

oh yes thanks, the Beast. I completely forgot that... hmm that would be fun to incorporate.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Imperator Fyron said:

EaX said:
...some sort of lifeform wich assimilates ships & it's crew (similar to the borg, but using nano mechanical viruses i think)...

Isn't that precisely the Borg? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Not quite. I only played the demo, but the Cataclysm Beast was organic; more of a mold-spore, I think.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

This is similar to the Homeworld2 backstory - the third of the three Hyperspace Cores has been found by a militaristic nomadic race called the Vaygr, and their leader Makaan is conquering system after system. (<font color="red">WARNING:</font> If you read on you will get a major spoiler!)

The Mothership and its fleet fights off several Vaygr attacks before they find a device called the "Oracle" which is apparently an ancient "Progenitor" device, made by the people of Sajuuk. The Oracle takes over the Hyperspace core and takes the mothership to the wreckage of an unbelievably huge Progenitor ship (you see a film where the Mothership, being 2.5km in height, is shown in comparison to the Progenitor ship. My first reaction was "OMFG that thing is HUGE!") where you must find an ancient super-warship - a Dreadnaught (no, this is spelled correctly) - called the "Gatekeeper of Sajuuk". You discover that the Progenitors were an extra-galactical race (Ocampa Caretaker, anyone?) and that their relics aren't as passive as you might think (or want). They've still got AI controlled warships, Movers, Drones and most notably Keepers, who are undestroyable uber-warships. At first you (both as a Hiigaran and as a player) think the Dreadnaught will give you superior firepower and that you will win easily, but it turns out there is a second Dreadnaught in the posession of the Vaygr. I have not yet reached the point where I encounter it, but it was said in a cutscene movie. I am currently at mission 12 of 15, Thaddis Sabbah. Any tactical advice would be appreciated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[EaX]

Imperator Fyron said:

EaX said:
...some sort of lifeform wich assimilates ships &amp; it's crew (similar to the borg, but using nano mechanical viruses i think)...

Isn't that precisely the Borg? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



No really, the beast uses a beam that carries the nano-mechanical viruses to infect other ships, while the borg have to board the ships as far as i know.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

The Borg have to manually assimilate other people and hardware to use them. And, when a person is assimilated, he/she turns only partially into a Borg - further engineering is required for things like the eyepiece, the metallic suit, the funky laser pen at the side of their heads, various arm appliances etc.

[wake_of_angels]

Homeworld is a good game which can be used to make SE mod!
But why didn't think about it sooner?

[Combat Wombat]

People have talked about it before but no one has ever stepped foward to make it.

[RudyHuxtable]

*steps forward*

I shall make this. You shall love it.

Of course, by the time I'm done it'll be time to mod SEV.

My initial idea sets are implementable, although I'm working on making the warp point/hyperdrive reconcile at the moment. I'll post some solid features in the next few days once I get my head screwed back on.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

My biggest idea is using fighters/corvettes/weapons that come from the games as well as "fictional" fighters/corvettes/weapons. Say, short-ranged Missile Gunships that can launch anti-frigate missiles, or Ion Pulse Fighters which can launch long-ranged anti-frigate pulses, and Missile Turrets for capital ships that can launch long-range anti-frigate missiles as opposed to the normal Destroyer cannons; Cannons fire faster, but Missiles are more powerful with a longer range and they're seekers, but they're also larger and more expensive.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Ion Pulse fighters? Definitly too high tech for HW1. Don't have 2.

[Zaamon]

On HW2 there is Pulsar corvets. They shoot somekind ion-pulses. But if I have understood, they are anti-corvets. At least I use them anti-corvets. They can use anti-frigate missions too.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

HW2 Pulsar Gunships are anti-Corvette Corvettes that indeed use some sort of pulse cannon, but the color of the pulses is too dark to be a genuine ion pulse. What I meant with the Ion Pulse fighters are some sort of Bombers that are slower but tougher and stronger.

[EaX]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
Ion Pulse fighters? Definitly too high tech for HW1. Don't have 2.



what about the multi-beam frigates from HW Cataclysm?

[Akula]

Also there's the bentusi super acolyte fighter from HW cataclysm.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Never liked the cataclysm ships. Only played the demo, though.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Multi-beam frigates, can be done EaX. The (HW2) Battlecruiser already has 4 ion beams (2 turrets which each fire 2 Ion Beams IIRC, but it could also be one).

So the Bentusi have warships in Cataclysm? Ah, that's great..... In 2 they only have Bentus, some sort of super-mothership, we could make that the largest ship in the game - provided there aren't bigger ships later on..... (Please note: I've only managed to get to mission 12 (Thaddis Sabbah) of 15 in HW2, if anyone has finished all missions and encountered a larger operational ship (NOT the Progenitor ship where you find the Dreadnaught, as it is clearly broken apart, unless you encounter an intact one later on), please let me/us know!)

[Akula]

Technically the acolyte fighter is a bentusi design with Somtaaw weaponry so that one could also be regarded as a bentusi ship, there's also the bentusi cargo barge and trade station.


The Bentusi is really a paradox, from what I've been able to piece together they disarmed every ship around the time the higarans where forced into exile, but in both HW 1 and cataclysm they happely use their tripple rapid fire ion cannons

I think Bentus is the largest ship I've seen in homeworld, I'm not sertain about the T-mat mothership (seen in the end of homeworld)or Naggarok (cataclysm) but my guess is that they're both about half the size of Bentus

I think the only ship larger than bentus is the progenitor mothership, but no it's a wreck and you won't see it intact. Many of the progenitor ships and technologies could be included as unique techs though.

I really find cataclysm ships to be a break from normal homeworld ships, they're too versatile, it's not like in homeworld where you can wreck a heavycruiser with a formation of bombers, the Somtaaw dreadnought is really the ultimate ship in every way, and really find that irritating.

Indeed ion cannons is a videly used weapon in homeworld I don't even want to try and find all the ships that use them, but I think all factions in HW 1 and Cataclysm use them.
I really find it strange though that the vaygr don't have any ships using them. After all they got hold of a lot of the old taiidan empire.

[EaX]

Yes the Bentusi give the Super Acolyte fighter, on the last mission of HW Cataclysm.

On HW1 &amp; Cataclyms the bentusi only have very few ships, the Huge ships, (bentusi trade stations i think their name are), the super acolyte fighter, and other ship wich i don't know it's name, some kind of cargo ship i think.

I don't know if the bentusi appear on HW2, since it doesn't run on my computer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[RudyHuxtable]

Just to update...

I've begun on the shipsets (have to play through the games again, poor me), and Strategia is starting on the data files. I've also been building a map, and I'm going to make it capable of three eras of play.

It's going to be a relatively small map. I think this is a good idea because of how much violence there is in the Homeworld series http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Let's get enemies together early and let the beatings begin, I say. Anyway, there it is.

Mod status --- .0000001 % completed

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

If anyone got further than me in HW2 (currently at Thaddis Sabbah (mission 12) where the damned Vaygr Battlecruisers keep creaming my Dreadnaught in some inexplicable way) and spotted new ships/technologies, please let me know?

I looked into the Homeworld2 Forums some time ago, and I saw a mention of some object called "Sajuuk", if anyone can provide info about it/him, it would certainly be appreciated. Couldnt login to the HW2 forum though, bloody thing wont accept Hotmail as an email provider.....

[Akula]

Okay a bit of plot spoiling

Sajuuk is really just a dreadnaught on steroids, it's armor is almost twice that of the mothership and it's beamcannon is the most powerfull in the game, it can slice a vaygr cruiser in 3 hits (if the armor isn't upgraded) the only problem I can remember with it is that it can't target fighters.

It's what you and Makaan is searching for throughout the game

For the ultimate spoiling try
http://well-of-souls.com/homeworld/hws/
You can find information about all HW 1, HW 2 and Cataclysm ships here, as well as a few outtakes, some HW 2 ships are a bit vaguely detailed though, I think it's made before the official release of HW 2, there's also a lot about the plot

[RudyHuxtable]

Good call on this webpage, Akula. I've got some great shots for ships thanks to it.

I've also decided that in addition to the traditional shipsets, I'm going to make a few kiith specific sets. They'll probably use the same graphics as either the Taiidan or the Kushan, but the AI will be different. I'm sorry I don't have artistic skill or I'd draw a few ships myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Maybe I can beg AT to join in? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Okay kids:

Homeworld Mod: .01 % completed

[zircher]

Were you planning to extract the assorted ship models from the HW/HW:C/HW2 games and render them as SE IV shipsets? I was poking around the various HW mod sites and that seems like a real possibility.

I've got HW/HW:C somewhere, never found the time to get HW2 so I don't know if they used the same pack file technology, etc.
--
TAZ

[zircher]

I found the disks and installed HW, I'll see if I can confirm that capability as time permits tonight.
--
TAZ

[RudyHuxtable]

What programs would I need to extract the images? If I can do it without having to screenshot EVERY single ship, I'd prefer that.

I'm still going to need to make some custom artwork for troops and the like... Stick figures are always good right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Akula]

I might be able to do a bit of 3D work if someone can provide me with some artwork, my time is limited though, I got some exams in a few months

[zircher]

These links might help for tools and info.

http://forums.relicnews.com/archive/index.php/t-3024.html
<a href="http://www.csh.rit.edu/~seubanks/homeworld
" target="_blank">http://www.csh.rit.edu/~seubanks/homeworld
</a>

I have not found a valid link for the WinBig binaries. This utility is essential in order to unpack the *.big files that keep all the game data. I do have the VB source code for WinBig and after dinner/after LOST/after a visit to the fitness center tonight ( :-P ), I plan to compile and test it. If I get it working, I'll post a link for you.
--
TAZ

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Have you tried the Relic Developers Network? I'm wandering around in there now.

Looks a little sparse, but some interesting stuff.

This might be helpfull: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=25632

[zircher]

Good links, I did get WinBig to compile so I'm playing with that. When I get HW2, I'll definately need those other tools.
--
TAZ

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Could you post it someplace, please?

Multi-gun corvets(sp?) with ion-cannons sounds fun right now...:D

[zircher]

Of course! I just needed to test it first.

http://www.fire-on-the-suns.com/WinBig.zip

I grabbed the first ship that I saw and converted it to .X so I could do quick view in my DarkBasic Pro model viewer.

Assuming the link works... one advanced support frigate. :-)

http://www.fire-on-the-suns.com/hw_asf.png
--
TAZ

[zircher]

Yeah, I'm rather pleased with myself. Not only can people export the models from HW and render them into ship sets. You can in theory export those models and textures to SE V when it is released. [insert real big grin]

I doubt that I'll have the time to actually build the shipsets for SE IV. I'm more of a tools guy this time around. But, I hope this will convince some folks that a HW mod is very easy to achieve. The most creative part will be where it comes to units that are not part of the original game such as ground troops. It will be interesting to see what Akula and others can achieve there.

Of course, if anyone needs to pick my brain on this, go for it. I'll try to do my best to help given the time I have available.
--
TAZ

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Akula]

What about copyright? I don't think they'll allow us to use their images in another game.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I saw a shipset once with ships that looked very Homeworldish..... It's on the Gold CD, I forgot its name, but it is a Gas Giant floater race of nautilus-like cephlapods. The race image is a nautilus with an eye of red and yellow. I believe it's an actual Homeworld Taiidan shipset, since I've seen very similar pictures on the Homeworld Shipyards site Zircher linked to. (Please note: I've visited this page last about two days ago, so I missed that at first.....)

Edit: Seen more ships and yup, the race I meant is CERTAINLY a Homeworld 1 race.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Looked through (almost) all ships on that site. MAN I really must get back to playing the game, I can't wait to see Sajuuk in action, or the Balcora Gate, apparently leading to the supermassive black hole Sajuuk rested in.

One more thing tho..... the Megastation outtake. Is anyone here familiar with Homeworld2 modding? It has been done, I've seen screens of a Star Wars mod (watching a wing of TIE Fighters doing a flyby of an Imperial Star Destroyer is always fun) but noone has as of yet done work on the outtakes, or at least for as far as I know. I would most certainly appreciate it greatly if someone would make the Megastation available ingame..... or more.

In conjunction with the people responsible for the SW Mod for HW2, there are interesting possibilities - Death Star anyone?

(Man, can't WAIT to follow the Millenium Falcon as it goes through the Death Star.....)

[zircher]

Akula, the copyrights are in still in place. This would be a fan mod and for personal use only. So, it would never see the inside of a CD, it should never be sold for profit, and it wouldn't hurt to say that you should be an owner/licensee of Homeworld as well.

I'm pretty sure everyone who is helping on this knows that we're not making anything official for Relic or any of its parent companies.
--
TAZ

[Akula]

I know it's not taking anything away from Relic, but they might see it different, the only reason that I say it is to avoid any possible problems with Relic, perhaps asking for permission

[zircher]

Technically, based on the license you have to agree to in order to install Homeworld, you already have permission for personal use. Distribution is another animal. But, I would not worry unless they came down with a cease and desist order.

Paramount has not jumped down Atrocities' neck for his ship sets and they're much more agressive than Relic. For that matter, Relic even gives away the source code for Homeworld. So, I don't think there is any need for concern as long as the project stays at the fandom level and we do nothing to defame the Homeworld name.
--
TAZ

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

No, we're actually giving the Relic people *free marketing*..... Think about it; if you have never heard of HW but you have played the HWM, and you see HW somewhere, you're more likely to click the "buy" button (or take out your wallet if you go to *actual* stores) than when you haven't played HWM.

[Akula]

Some licenses only allow you to install it, not modify any content or really do anything else but install it, I don't know about the Homeworld license that's mainly why I ask.
Also yes there's the free marketing, but some companies don't care the slightest about this.
After all you're also giving material free marketing by putting it up on peer to peer, but I hardly think any companies like that, and some companies don't see the difference.
Some companies pretty much states that they won't allow people to post material, modified or not, sometimes not even for their own game. I don't think it matters if it's just a picture and such, but some will react really harsh if you convert their material for another game, especially if you don't ask for permission first.

[zircher]

Fair enough, paranoia has its place. Does anyone want to try their hand at writing up a letter and contacting Relic and/or their parent company for permission? Of course, since Relic was bought by a competitor to Sierra, there is probably a snowball in hell chance that it will work. Did I forget to mention that there are some... complications in getting official permission?
--
TAZ

Just for fun, I posted a general request for contacts message in the official Sierra HW forum. We'll see what that reveals over the next few days.

[zircher]

To continue... I got pointed to a VUGames forum admin and I'm now coresponding with him on the subject as I work my way up the food chain. Of course, at some point they might tell us to stop all activity and abandon the project, but that's the dice you roll when you ask for permission. As I'm going along, I am also making some distinctions between SE IV and SE V since they may allow one and not the other.

More info when I have it...
--
TAZ

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

-----DATAFILE UPDATE-----

Putting weapons on holdfor the time being, starting on ship sizes now. Got an idea that would make the HWM more Hoemworld realistic, but also much bigger and harder to make, but I'm doing it anyway;
I'm making Kiith-specific ships.
The HW1 Mothership(what's that ship's name, btw?) will only be availvable to the race with the racial trait that defines them as Kushan, while the Pride of Hiigara (HW2 Mothership) is only available to the race with the racial trait Hiigarans (i.e. the united Hiigaran fleet, with multiple Kiiths working together in it, like in HW2).

Also working on colonizing. Currently I've got Motherships at 5MT, and a Colony Module-ish thing at 4.5MT, to make colonizing more difficult. However, the module (called the Cryo-Storage, thank you very much Homeworld Shipyards) DOES generate ample shielding, so any Mothership with the Cryo Trays will be very hard to destroy, even for capital ship killers.

Currently, I'm making all frigate/capital ship components generate a modicum of shielding, while the fighters and corvettes can use free, 0kT armor. (It does have damageresistance though.) The Mothership components generate the largest amounf of shields of course. The Mothership Construction Bay (oh, btw, got an issue with that too; the Mothership can't build Battlecruisers (well, in HW2at least), but the mobile Shipyard can. Should we enable the Mothership to produce Battlecruisers or should we allow the Shipyard to produce Motherships? Dilemma, dilemma.....) generates 10K shielding IIRC, which does provide good protection but can be worn down with relentless fire from capitalship killer weapons. The Cryo-Trays generate a massive 1M shielding, yetare prohibitively expensive, making colonizing a very very very costly arrangement that will take a lot of time but once you have your colonizer Mothership it's just about impossible to destroy it..... only "drawback" is that it can mount only a few weapons and other systems.

However, I'm also currently planning to change colonization again. I'm going to create a ship class available to everyone (will probably be the ONLY ship size available to everyone) called the Khar-Tobarha, a refitted Khar-Toba prison ship at approx. 6MT, the only ship capable of mounting the soon-to-be 5MT Cryo-Storage bays.

Mod status --- .002% complete. Sorry Rudy!

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Uh...Homeworld ships rarely have shields.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Whoops, sorry, forgot to mention that. I'm reworking all shields and armor to make a division between anti-strike craft (i.e. fighters and corvettes) and anti-warship (i.e. frigates and capital ships) weapons. Anti-strike craft weapons will have a moderate amount of damage, but their damage suffers when they're used against frigates and capital ships. Anti-warship weapons have low to moderate damage, but an attack bonus versus larger ships.

It's like this:

Strike craft has tough armor, while all warship components generate shields. Weapons will generate less shields than, say, fighter bays, so a heavy warship will be easier to destroy than a ship of the same size but crammed full of fighter bays. Colony ships will be virtually impossible to destroy; there is only one colony module type component available, and it generates 1M(!) shields, which is enormous.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Ah. Now it makes sense.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

If only you could add a damage modifier for weapons in the sense of "Tenth Damage To Shields", or "Double Damage To Armor". And if only you could add multiple damage types - so a medium weapon powerful against both Corvettes and Frigates (think along the lines of the Pulsar) could have both Double Damage To Armor and Double Damage To Shields. Oh well.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Rudy, when you have HW2, could you please screencap all of the Progenitor ships? (icluding the Progenitor Mothership where you find the Dreadnaught) That way, we could make a "Progenitor Relics" race, similar to Space Monsters; their ships would be extremely strong when compared to similar ships of the "normal" races, but t'hey'd produce them very slowly, so every ship is precious, and every Keeper lost is a small disaster. Also, would it be possible to make their "homeworld" either the mobile Progenitor Mothership (an intact one) or a rather large piece of debris of the Mothership (like the Dreadnaught Berth or the Foundry)?

Oh, and as for troops, it would be simple (I think); On the HW Shipyards they say that the "Blade" interceptor from HW1 was originally meant for atmospheric travel. You could take this, and using the models of some of the anti-fighter fighters (Interceptors and Assault Craft and the like) you could make troops, simply put wings or other atmospheric flight assistants on them (like antigrav units (for the Bentusi, for example), helicopter rotors, lift jets, etc.) and there you have it, ready-made troops.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Bit OT.....

Been thinking for a while, and I can only come to one conclusion:

the Hiigarans are direct descendants of the Progenitors.

All the evidence points in that direction; I mean, just look at the Dreadnaught:
-It is over ten thousand years old.
-Its control matrix and crew interface is compatible with the Hiigarans'.
Now I don't know about you, but I don't think that in ten thousand years or more, their computers (i.e. control matrix) are compatible with our current ones. And the crew interface is even more astounding;
-It has to be more than ten thousand years old.
-It was built by a race from another galaxy.
-(Assuming Hiigarans have a human physique) It has been designed for people approx. 1.80m tall, with two arms and two hands. It does not operate chemically or telepathically.



One more conclusion, this one even more radical than the last:

the Progenitors are human.

It fits; we're obviously not from the same galaxy as the Hiigarans; in the cutscenes, a diagram of their Galaxy reveals only one spiral, which goes fully around the core at least two times. Our galaxy has multiple spirals, which do not go fully around the core IIRC. At best, they go around one time, nothing more.

Think about it; in an unknown amount of time (possibly millions of years) we discover Hyperspace and start manufacturing hyperdrives to travel around the galaxy. We eventually manage to build a massively powerful hyperdrive which we place in an exploration vessel - called NAGGAROK.

The NAGGAROK is never heard from again.

It remains dormant for a million years.

Meanwhile, less powerful hyperdrives are installed on other starships which are sent to the same galaxy at much slower speed. The NAGGAROK is presumed lost, probably as a result of its hyperdrive. So, we send a colony fleet.

We arrive. We build a network of wormgates, which we call (for some reason) the Eye of Arran. We install the activation mechanism in a powerful warship we call Sajuuk. What happen next is not clear, perhaps other aliens exist in the Galaxy or perhaps a part of the humans revolt, but we are at war. We are about to lose the key to the Eye network, so we maroon it at the edge of a supermassive black hole, then we build a single gigantic wormgate to its location. The activation mechanism for the wormgate is installed in a small but powerful warship, which is then berthed on a massive mothership, perhaps a command ship, perhaps a last hope of escape. (Note that the Dreadnaught cannot get out of the Berth while the Mothership is intact; it cannot move out of it vertically, and the horizontal way is blocked by the Foundry engineering section, where the Hyperspace Cores were created to power the Sajuuk key. The Dreadnaught can only launch if the Mothership breaks apart, which could happen in two situations; either the Dreadnaught is cut loose, be it because of threat or because Sajuuk can be reactivated safely, or the Mothership is destroyed, in which case it could very well hold its own against a medium-sized attack force. History tells us it is the last thing that happened, only the Dreadnaught did not fight.) The Mothership is attacked by the enemy, perhaps bent on acquiring the Gatekeeper key, probably not, but the Mothership is destroyed.

The Mothership wreckage becomes the Karos Graveyard. In HW1 we see the Graveyard littered with wreckage from the old (four thousand years - leaves a six thousand year gap) Hiigaran fleet. In HW2 we learn that the Graveyard (part of it, at least) is the wreckage from the Progenitor Mothership. Coincidence or not?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

'Elementary, my dear Watson!'

[EaX]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
Bit OT.....

Been thinking for a while, and I can only come to one conclusion:

the Hiigarans are direct descendants of the Progenitors.

All the evidence points in that direction; I mean, just look at the Dreadnaught:
-It is over ten thousand years old.
-Its control matrix and crew interface is compatible with the Hiigarans'.
Now I don't know about you, but I don't think that in ten thousand years or more, their computers (i.e. control matrix) are compatible with our current ones. And the crew interface is even more astounding;
-It has to be more than ten thousand years old.
-It was built by a race from another galaxy.
-(Assuming Hiigarans have a human physique) It has been designed for people approx. 1.80m tall, with two arms and two hands. It does not operate chemically or telepathically.



One more conclusion, this one even more radical than the last:

the Progenitors are human.

It fits; we're obviously not from the same galaxy as the Hiigarans; in the cutscenes, a diagram of their Galaxy reveals only one spiral, which goes fully around the core at least two times. Our galaxy has multiple spirals, which do not go fully around the core IIRC. At best, they go around one time, nothing more.

Think about it; in an unknown amount of time (possibly millions of years) we discover Hyperspace and start manufacturing hyperdrives to travel around the galaxy. We eventually manage to build a massively powerful hyperdrive which we place in an exploration vessel - called NAGGAROK.

The NAGGAROK is never heard from again.

It remains dormant for a million years.

Meanwhile, less powerful hyperdrives are installed on other starships which are sent to the same galaxy at much slower speed. The NAGGAROK is presumed lost, probably as a result of its hyperdrive. So, we send a colony fleet.

We arrive. We build a network of wormgates, which we call (for some reason) the Eye of Arran. We install the activation mechanism in a powerful warship we call Sajuuk. What happen next is not clear, perhaps other aliens exist in the Galaxy or perhaps a part of the humans revolt, but we are at war. We are about to lose the key to the Eye network, so we maroon it at the edge of a supermassive black hole, then we build a single gigantic wormgate to its location. The activation mechanism for the wormgate is installed in a small but powerful warship, which is then berthed on a massive mothership, perhaps a command ship, perhaps a last hope of escape. (Note that the Dreadnaught cannot get out of the Berth while the Mothership is intact; it cannot move out of it vertically, and the horizontal way is blocked by the Foundry engineering section, where the Hyperspace Cores were created to power the Sajuuk key. The Dreadnaught can only launch if the Mothership breaks apart, which could happen in two situations; either the Dreadnaught is cut loose, be it because of threat or because Sajuuk can be reactivated safely, or the Mothership is destroyed, in which case it could very well hold its own against a medium-sized attack force. History tells us it is the last thing that happened, only the Dreadnaught did not fight.) The Mothership is attacked by the enemy, perhaps bent on acquiring the Gatekeeper key, probably not, but the Mothership is destroyed.

The Mothership wreckage becomes the Karos Graveyard. In HW1 we see the Graveyard littered with wreckage from the old (four thousand years - leaves a six thousand year gap) Hiigaran fleet. In HW2 we learn that the Graveyard (part of it, at least) is the wreckage from the Progenitor Mothership. Coincidence or not?



Very intresting....., i would like to add that the Naggarok was destroyed on HW Cataclysm (but i'm sure you already knew that) i wonder what would had happened if the race from HW2 (i don't know it's name, since i don't have the game) would have encounter the beast.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Who? The Hiigarans or the Vaygr?

In the case of the Hiigarans, well, they'd probably fight it like Kiith Somtaaw did. In the case of the Vaygr, I honestly have no idea - the Taiidan allied with the Beast in exchange for half the galaxy, because they wanted their power to be restored. Makaan also wants power, but he also wants to acquire Sajuul, and I don't think the Beast would surrender any Hyperspace Cores it acquires when it destroys the Pride of Hiigara or Bentus. In fact, I think Makaan would most likely attack it as well - he wants the entire galaxy, he doesn't want simply to gain a power base in part of it, he wants the whole thing.

[EaX]

The Vaygr, i've no idea who the Makaan are or what Sajuul is (i ship i think don't?), damn, i think i'll buy HW2 anyways, someday i'll upgrade my computer i hope http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Makaan is the Vaygr leader. Sajuuk was worshipped as a god by the Kiiths on Kharak (and the Taiidan named their Ion Cannon Frigate Sajuuk-Cor, "God's Wrath") but turns out to be.....

a starship.

LOL the irony! For four thousand years or more the Exiles - and perhaps others too - worshipped a spaceship! LOL!

edit: Oh, Sajuul was a typo, it was 'sposed to be Sajuuk.

[EaX]

funny i love ironies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Yes, when I first read Sajuuk was a ship it really made me laugh..... Oh dear, those poor Hiigarans, worshipping a derelict ship for millennia.....

But, back to business. Two more ideas for HWM:

-Warp points.
Could be represented by "Hyperspace Gate Complexes". Perhaps when you've received HW2, Rudy, we could start a multiplayer match simply to make some nice screenies without worrying about the possibility of a sudden attack that would ruin your photo session. And, when that is done of course, we can..... well, test our skills against each other..... You, who knows the Hiigarans from HW1 and Cataclysm, and probably uses good tactics, versus me, specialized in HW2 combat, a firm believer in the "tank rush" tactic.....

-Storms.
The Progenitor wreckage in mission 7 emits harmful radiation clouds which damage ships and can be utterly lethal to non-capital ships. Even Frigates can be severely damaged. Also, in at least one skirmish/MP map (Terah, I think it was), there is a large cloud of radiation dividing the map into two sections. Perhaps this could be a plausible explanation for the storms from a HW perspective?

[Akula]

I think there's a fenomenom in Cataclysm called slipgates or something similar, the Cal Stooh (not sure about the spelling) uses one of those for a far jump, those could propably serve as some sort of warppoints, it's not a great explanaition, but it's not entirely away from the HW universe, without having to rely solely on the Eye of Arran
Also about constructed gates, I think a large part of the Bentusi escaped through some sort of massive gate a good way into the cataclysm storyline

Actually radiation fields might be a very good explanaition ofr storms, don't they also affect sensors?

A thing to note though, the Dreadnaught isn't a unique ship, Makaan also has one he uses to open Balcora gate, this raises some questions, are there more than one mothership? Or are/was Dreadnaughts generally used as progenitor warships.
Also one might think that the Vaygr somehow has some sort of compatible matrix, after all Makaan is so bend on getting a hold on Sajuuk I really doubdt that he'd waste the time trying to get things like it's weapons systems operational, also as mentioned before the Taiidan also know the word Sajuuk, if I remember correctly they're the only ones that uses it in HW 1, thus there are also some things that point to the Vaygr having some relations to the progenitor

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

To continue my earlier rant about us being the Progenitors being the Hiigarans:

It could very well be that the colonization fleet found no other (intelligent) life at all in the HW galaxy, and that the splinter factions that destroyed the Mothership (as I said before) completely broke away from each other and became the Hiigarans, Taiidan, Vaygr, Bentusi etc.

[CovertJaguar]

I've been thinking about how you could implement hyperspace in SEIV and I came up with this idea:

While it is not possible to set a time limit on how long a warp point lasts, it is possible to create an environment in which warp points are inherently unstable and would eventually collapse. This can done using events, by making a low severity event that immediately closes a warp point. You could then adjust the "Event Percent Chance" values in the setting.txt file to control how often a event occurs.

I have attached a zip file with a settings.txt and events.txt that demonstrate this effect. After a certain amount of turns after a game starts, in which I believe no events can occur and appears to be hard coded, a warp point will be closed somewhere in the galaxy each turn.

This would allow you to place warp-openers on say your mothership and use it to open a hyperspace gate that will close in a few turns. I think this is as close to the Homeworld system as SEIV will allow.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Yes, however the Vaygr use Hyperspace Gates which can be deployed anywhere. Ships up to Frigate size can warp through them. HS Gates remain active indefinitely, perhaps it'd be a better idea to make the warp points "HS Gate Complexes" since they'd remain active no matter what. It saves a whole lot of fussing about, and Hyperspace never truly remains open in HW, the ships simply jump and the hyperspace "window" disappears. Also, one WP per turn could be a bit..... well, slow, especially in a larger quadrant. And you'd make "first contact" with the same empire over and over again.

However, to increase the speed of WP closing, you could make a lot - and I mean a lot, several pages perhaps - of entries for the same event. However, then the problem still remains that you'd make first contact with another empire over and over again. And Hyperspacing would be too difficult, since you'd have to open a new WP every time, but the HS modules are very expensive to make Hyperspacing more difficult. It's like that in the HW universe too.

[CovertJaguar]

Also, one WP per turn could be a bit..... well, slow, especially in a larger quadrant.


Yes, the limit of of one warp closed per turn bothered me as well.


And you'd make "first contact" with the same empire over and over again.


Didn't even think of that. That would be annoying.


However, to increase the speed of WP closing, you could make a lot - and I mean a lot, several pages perhaps - of entries for the same event.


The problem wasn't the number of events that were warp closers, but that I could only get one event period to trigger a turn. I don't think more copies of the event would help.

[zircher]

Hmmm, don't shoot the messenger, but here's the result of my quest to get something official ruled on concerning the mod. It you don't like the answer, you can always shoot Akula for asking the question about copyrights in the first place. [That's supposed to be humorous, btw.] If you all want to proceed, it would be wise to use sufficently different images and names so as to not raise a conflict.
--
TAZ

--------------------------------------------------------
Response from VUG with a little text formatting added...
--------------------------------------------------------

Hi Todd,

Sorry for the long wait time on a response, but I wanted to take this issue to our legal team to make sure you were protected. We really appreciate the enthusiasm for the product. The response if that this would not be something that we would condone. The mod would take Intellectual Property (IP) that we own and modify it to support IP that we don not own. This would harm our own IP and provide us with no benefit. If you were to proceed with the mod it is possible that our legal team might take action. There have been similar issues in the past. Therefore I can’t grant you the clearance and assurance you are requesting.

I wish I could give you a positive response. I think you did a really good job presenting your case and you were very wish to ask for permission ahead of time.

Best regards,
Gregory Agius

Interactive Marketing
Vivendi Universal Games

--------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Zircher [mailto:tzircher@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 12:02 PM
To: Agius, Greg
Subject: RE: Getting permission to make a mod about Homeworld...

Well, the mod group itself is a loose collection of friends and forum dwellers that are fans of Space Empires and the Homeworld series. The idea is to create a fan mod for Space Empires IV (and V when it is released this fall) that is based on Homeworld. SE is a strategic space empire 4x game that is very mod friendly. The project is strictly non-profit with zero intent for commercial distribution. It's something that we want to do as a labor of love for both games.

As you can tell, it's not a very tightly knit organization. People can come and go on the project since it is a fan effort and not done by a game studio or anything like that. I've kind of nominated myself to do some leg work on issues such as permission because I have a knack for 3D graphics. I've shown the other forum members that it is possible to use the ship models in the Homeworld files and render 2D graphics or convert models into a 3D format that SE V should be able to read. [SE IV uses 2D graphics, but SE V should be capable of a combination of 2D graphics and 3D models.]

My general take on it is that it a personal use thing more or less covered under the Homeworld license. And, we're not out to challenge any copyrights or trademarks of the Homeworld series. However some members of the group would like to see some level of permission so that we don't have to worry about a cease-n-desist order two thirds of the way through the mod. Of course, if there are any restrictions, disclaimers, or other such verbiage that we need to post, the group would be glad to comply with that.

Even if that means zero permission and we're asked to stop immediately, it is better to know that up front than months later.
--
Todd A. Zircher

"Agius, Greg" &lt;gregory.agius@vugames.com&gt; wrote:

What we’d need to do for starters is get an exact idea of what you are trying to do. Are you physically altering the source code? Are you selling the game? Etc etc

Gregory Agius

Interactive Marketing
Vivendi Universal Games

--------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Zircher [mailto:tzircher@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:14 AM
To: forumadmin
Subject: Getting permission to make a mod about Homeworld...

Good morning. Nocturnus, a moderator on the Homeworld forum, suggested that I drop you a line and perhaps you can point me in the right direction.

I have some friends over on the Shrapnel game forum that are interested in making a Space Empires mod using images and models from HW/HW:C/HW2. The idea being to make a mod for strategic gaming. Some of them asked about getting permission to do this, just in case Relic/Sierra/VUG wanted to stomp on a fan mod for some reason.

Given that info, do you have a ideas as to who I can contact so I can get permission to make a Homeworld mod for Space Empires?
--
TAZ

----------------------------------------------------

[zen.]

I'm the one that did the Commonwealth shipset a few years back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I might still have it somewhere despite my HD crash a year or two ago. However, in light of the above letter, maybe I shouldn't go looking for it...

*cough* (http://web.archive.org/web/20020814114303/http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/zenbudo/Taiidan_v135.zip) Anyway, there are no live links left it would seem...any sites that were hosting it are pretty much defunct.

zen

[CovertJaguar]

I just went back and actually beat HW2. I can now see how the Hyperspace gates could fit in. The Age of Sjet is a perfect time setting for a mod. After they find the Progenitor gate network at the end the galaxy would look just like a SEIV galaxy with links running all over the place. They even show such a picture in the final movie.

A pity that the mod was quashed before it even really got off the ground.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Not exactly quashed. The mod-makers can make a HW2-esque mod; they just can't make a HW2-copy mod.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

It did get off the ground. I've already started on the basic data files and Rudy said he was taking screenshots for the graphic files.

I think we can create a HW Mod without it actually being HW..... Perhaps in the First Time, before, during and immediately after the Great Hiigaran War after which the Hiigarans were exiled to Kharak? It'd be sufficiently different from the games to be legal, yet it'd be HW without a doubt.....

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Still involves copyrighted material. I think the best you could do would be one based on HW, much like Space Empires is based in part on Starfire? Some boardgame.

[Fyron]

Akula said:
What about copyright? I don't think they'll allow us to use their images in another game.

zircher said:
Hmmm, don't shoot the messenger, but here's the result of my quest to get something official ruled on concerning the mod...

Thanks guys for effectively killing off (or at least severely maiming) a potentially great mod for no good reason at all...

[Sivran]

Mods to make one game look/act like another are common. Using images from other sources is also common. It's also non-commercial. I say, damn the lawyers and full speed ahead.

[EaX]

i agree.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Ooh dear. We could get into trouble for this.....

moves to his own PC again and resumes modding

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Looks like it's going to arrive after all.....

[RudyHuxtable]

Yea seriously. Who asked anyone to contact the lawyers? I'm sure Atrocities didn't give Paramount a call prior to creating his mod. And thus they still probably have no clue it's available. NOW, the Homeworld Mod is on the radar.

I believe there is a swahili word that fits perfectly in this situation:

Morons.

[Combat Wombat]

Call the mod Homeplanet and change a few pixels on the ship images and keep working and no one will be the wiser.

Edit: Or don't release it to the "public" and keep going the way you are and then you can share you project with us your private group of friends. See how that works?

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

That's a great idea. Anyone want to sign up, give Rudy and me a PM with your email adress and we'll send you the finished version once it's..... well, finished.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
I saw a shipset once with ships that looked very Homeworldish..... It's on the Gold CD, I forgot its name, but it is a Gas Giant floater race of nautilus-like cephlapods. The race image is a nautilus with an eye of red and yellow. I believe it's an actual Homeworld Taiidan shipset, since I've seen very similar pictures on the Homeworld Shipyards site Zircher linked to. (Please note: I've visited this page last about two days ago, so I missed that at first.....)

Edit: Seen more ships and yup, the race I meant is CERTAINLY a Homeworld 1 race.



Taiidan and Kushan. It's the Eridani shipset, file attached.

[zircher]

Imperator Fyron said:
Thanks guys for effectively killing off (or at least severely maiming) a potentially great mod for no good reason at all...



You're welcome. Actually, I did have a very good reason to ask. I wanted to export the actual ship models from the HW series to SEV V when it was released. The technology exists, but I wanted to see what the legal waters looked like and see if a friendly agreement could be reached.

Also, everyone here is now aware of the real situation and can take appropriate precautions: either filing off the serial numbers or moving the project out of the public forum. While I might have kicked the project in the shins, I didn't kill it.

Too many people were standing around with their heads in the sand thinking that it would cover their ***. The real world doesn't operate that way.
--
TAZ

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Info about the progress of HWM can now be obtained by PMing me or Rudy. Rudy's doing the images, I'm working on the data files. This thread will now be allowed to die in peace, its spirit living on in the form of extensive PM traffic.

[Fyron]

Too many people were standing around with their heads in the sand thinking that it would cover their ***. The real world doesn't operate that way.

Thats a load of hogwash. What's next, going to go report the lot of us to Infogrames/Atari (or whoever it is that owns the ashes of Microprose these days) over 8+ year old images in the Image Mod? Who the hell cares? Seriously... Let people have their fun. It was no loss to anyone.

What did you think would happen? What corporate lawyer has ever said, "sure, go ahead and let people use our "property" freely and publically?" That's right, none of them.

[Gandalf Parker]

Come on guys. Be nice. You know that we are seeing representatives of both the "been around awhile" crowd and the "rules dont affect me yet" group. Check out the age thread and then take some of this stuff with a grain of salt.

Having said that..
there are many examples of "go ahead and use that" from the corporate world. It usually comes with rules like "be sure and say where its from" and "do not sell what you make with it" and "dont make us look bad".

So its not wasted effort to ask. And since it is the way its supposed to be done, it is a good suggestion if anyone likes the guy making the mod. Now if the author of the mod wants to ignore that then thats his decision but it would not be a good idea for anyone to suggest that he not at least make an effort at CYA

Gandalf Parker

[Fyron]

You know that we are seeing representatives of both the "been around awhile" crowd and the "rules dont affect me yet" group. Check out the age thread and then take some of this stuff with a grain of salt.

Wow...

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Sector - Sight Obscuration
Value1 = Level of obscuration. (Obscures all types) (Units cannot use this ability)
</pre><hr />

Is this true? In what way?

Edit: The "Units cannot use this ability" part I meant.

[Fyron]

I would imagine it means that the ability can not be used when placed on a unit. Units in the sector with the storm (or ship/facility) will still be cloaked.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

So a unit with a component with that ability will not work? Dammit. Going to have to rethink Sensors Distortion Probes.

[Sabin]

The results of petitioning companies varies. Some companies are agressively against modding(Freedom Force VS Marvel/Other) which in the end resulted in there being almost no place where Super Man, Goku, Batman, or other characters for Freedom Force could be obtained. Almost the same happened for City of Heroes, though Marvel made a blunder in that case.

Some companies actually encourage modification and alteration. A good example is Freespace 2: Fans petitioned for the source code, and were allowed to essentially make use of it - which has resulted in Freespace 2 Open, which has better graphics and things. Thief 3 also seems to have the Mission Editor available too...speaking of which, we also have Space Empires IV, no?

In any case, the results of petitions, the actions of companies and others can result in many things. That is all there is to it, essentially.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I haven't seen/spoken to Rudy in quite a while..... I wonder if he's still taking screenshots?