Stellar Manipulation again..

[Ragnarok-X]

Lo everyone,

i guess most will remembe, some time ago i asked about star creation in systems only populated by asteroid belts. Now i have a better question. Im about to have one craft constructed which can turn lifeless, system-sized nebulas into Stars (i suppose). Now im wondering, when using such a device in a system-sized nebula system, will the nebular disappear and one star will be there ? Or will it create asteroid belts or possible even planets ?

Secondly, i have a system with 2 stars. Can each one get a ring/sphereworld ?
Ty.

[Alneyan]

In the stock game, nebulaes are empty, except for their nebulae of course, so you won't find anything there... unless playing a custom game that has been specifically altered, of course. Removing the nebula will never create anything, but will merely uncover objects hiding within, including stars, planets...

You can build one Ringworld/Sphereworld per star in the system.

[Ragnarok-X]

Well does this mean nebula systems ARE actually totally empty or are they normal systems, just with everything being hidden apart from WPs ?

So two stars = 2 ringworlds ?


sorry for asking again, i just need to be 100% sure.

[douglas]

Nebula systems in randomly generated maps in stock and just about every mod are completely empty. Get rid of the nebula, and there'll be nothing left but warp points. You can create a star and build a ringworld/sphereworld around it, but that's all.

If the nebula happens to have been artificially created by stellar manipulation, any planets that were present before the nebula was created will still be there as asteroid fields, and will even be visible with the nebula still there, provided you have sufficiently high-tech sensors to see through the nebula at all.

Two stars = 2 ringworlds or sphereworlds, whichever you decide to build. Three stars makes possible the Triple Molly, or three ringworlds in the same system. I don't know the origin of the term, but I believe it's somewhere in the Encyclopedia Malfadorica. Now for something really impressive, find a five-star system in, say, Adamant Mod and build ringworlds around all five of them. Bonus points if the system has random movement.

[Renegade 13]

Nebula systems are always totally empty.

2 stars = 2 ring/sphereworlds

[Ragnarok-X]

crap. so my rush for systemsized nebular destroyers was a waste, and that in a high tech cost game. fk.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

You can still make stars in them.

[Slick]

Triple Molly comes from an inside joke about the name of actress Molly Ringwald (Molly Ringworld).

[Arkcon]

The ordinary star destroyer blasts the planets into asteroid fields. That's fun, but some TDM Modpack AI's will eventually reignite a star. Then everyone and their relatives will reform planets, colonize, atmosphere convert and -- darn you Tesselate and United Flora -- be back to max resource production and start kicking your arse again.

That's the great thing about the nebula creator or black hole generator -- the enemy can get rid of it, but they're left with nothing for their effort, since they're not co-ordinated enough to build a ringworld or sphere world.

I always meant to try it out -- if I build all the bases -- and turned control over to the A.I. would it activate the component? Probably not.

[Arkcon]

douglas said: Now for something really impressive, find a five-star system in, say, Adamant Mod and build ringworlds around all five of them. Bonus points if the system has random movement.

I tried that once in FQM. But I encountered the dreaded disappearing star bug. I was so disappointed, I abandoned the whole game. Remember, those random movement systems try to move all items to the same point, so you can (kinda) direct bases and sats by moving ships a perpendicular direction.

[Kana]

Slick said:
Triple Molly comes from an inside joke about the name of actress Molly Ringwald (Molly Ringworld).



Haven't heard that one in awhile...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Kana

[Xrati]

I put a warp point generator on a base (since it says you can Ship/base) and found out that without movement it won't work. Is there something I missed or is the ship/base classification wrong on the Stellar Manipulation component's. There's also one that closes warp points.

[Arkcon]

Warp opener/closers shouldn't be allowed on bases. You must have one movement point to activate them, so they'll never work. Several patches before Gold, you could put emergency propulsion on a base, and give it movement points, without giving it movement, because it had no engines. But even then, the warp closer/opener didn't work. So that was patched out.

There's lots of things like this remaining. Satelites can have supply components, and self destruct components, even though they need neither.

[Slick]

Xrati said:
I put a warp point generator on a base (since it says you can Ship/base) and found out that without movement it won't work. Is there something I missed or is the ship/base classification wrong on the Stellar Manipulation component's. There's also one that closes warp points.





Arkcon said:
Warp opener/closers shouldn't be allowed on bases. You must have one movement point to activate them, so they'll never work. Several patches before Gold, you could put emergency propulsion on a base, and give it movement points, without giving it movement, because it had no engines. But even then, the warp closer/opener didn't work. So that was patched out.

There's lots of things like this remaining. Satelites can have supply components, and self destruct components, even though they need neither.



Someone should make a "mod" that eliminates these and other similar silly mistakes and submit it to MM for inclusion into SEIV Deluxe. These are instances of minor oversight, and can be easily changed by small changes to the .txt files. If MM wants to showcase SEIV by increasing sales in a broader market, I'd think that he'd include this in the final patch.

[Wolfman77]

douglas said:
Nebula systems in randomly generated maps in stock and just about every mod are completely empty. Get rid of the nebula, and there'll be nothing left but warp points. You can create a star and build a ringworld/sphereworld around it, but that's all.




I have found Homeworlds in nebula systems, and even in Black hole systems, if I use a small quadrant size, and more often using ancient quadrant type, and add all 20 players. But generally destroying nebula only reduces hiding spaces, although you can usualy see through them by the time you can destroy them. I was going to test something, but maybe someone here already knows: can you create a star without first destroying the nebula?

[Xrati]

Wolfman77 : "Can you create a star without first destroying the nebula?"

Yes you can. I've done it in games where I started getting bored as the game was almost over. Other than a hidden planet (ring/sphereworld) in a nebula, what would you want a sun in a nebula for? By the time you get to that tech your sensor ratings can see through the nebula.

[Wolfman77]

Thanks. I thought I read somewhere on here that the red nebulas are at level 5 Obscuration, could be wrong though. I tried it last night and it said I could not create it with a nebula in the system. The reason I was asking though was ragnarok said his nebula destroyers were useless. If you want ringworlds in a system and have to destry the nebula to buils a star then that is one thing they are good for.

Destry nebula
Create star
Build world

If you were able to do it though, I wonder if there are some you can and some you can't. I'll have to test all kinds of nebula I guess.

[Xrati]

In using the map editor, which is what generates the maps in the game, I have not seen a nebula with a sight modifier of more than 3 on any generated maps that I've used.

I may have been wrong, but I could swear in one game that I was able to create a sun in a nebula. Now you've got me thinking, so I'm off to start the game and see! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Alneyan]

I don't *think* you can create Suns in nebulas without removing the nebula first, if I recall correctly. It doesn't make a lot of sense, as the sun would effectively be hidden from view, so the game probably requires the nebula to be gone first.

In the stock game, red nebulas give cloaking level 5, so it's effectively invisibility until the nebula is removed (mines have the same cloaking level). The lowest level is 3, and that's the level of created nebulas as well.

[Renegade 13]

I'm almost positive I've created stars in nebular systems before. Though I could be wrong...

[Arkcon]

Renegade 13 said:
"I'm almost positive I've created stars in nebular systems before. Though I could be wrong..."

Possibly because of what someone else mentioned. If the game has to create a homeworld in a game with a limited number of sectors, it will do some strange things. Once during a P&N game, the Sergetti started out in a black hole system, 3 sectors from the center.

What I have seen the TDM Modpack aliens do is destroy all nebulas and then ignite stars in the center, just 'cause they can, I guess. ANd they will also create stars in the center of an organic infestation, maybe that's what you saw?

[Xrati]

Nope, just finished trying to create a sun in a nebula and it doesn't work! BUT that still doesn't mean if your using an edited .txt files or mods for the game that some changes may allow you to end up doing it!
Also I generated a couple of maps and discovered that the sight modifier is random. I had a green Neb. at 4 and a red at 3. Soooo it must be part of a random generation unless the mod your using has again made changes that effect the generator. I forget which .txt file is used for planet generation, I think it's SystemTypes.txt that controls the map generator.

[Arkcon]

Also, I don't think nebula's hide stars, warp points, and planets. It's like they're "on the top layer of the image" as it were. In FQM, the nebula system with planets has random storms covering all objects. You need the right level of sensors to see what's underneath, but you know something is there.

[Alneyan]

Indeed, nebulas don't hide stellar objects; I got confused with Geo's map where you start with a peculiar ship mining an invisible planet, and somehow thought the planet was hidden because of the nebula.

[Wolfman77]

OK I did some testing last night again, here's what I found.
There are 2 "types" of nebula.

1. The usual type, described as "system wide storm", these are the ones you can destroy with a ND. there are 5 types(I think this was covered somewhere before). the red ones have a "maximum" obscuration of 5. I belive this means they can have anything up to that. The other four colors have 2 maxed at 3 and 2 maxed at 4. You cannot creat stars here untill you destroy it.

2. There are also some that are actually described as nebula, there are 4 types I believe. They are different from the five standard one everyone is used to. I think they are used only in the "ancient" quadrant type. You cannot detroy them but you can create stars in them. They have a max obscuration of 3 and cut shields by 5000(it says renders shield useless, but the systems text file says 5000). They are also much more colorful that the other kind.

I'll have to check it out to see if any of them hide stars or rings/spheres. I know they hide planets, don't hide warp points (you'd never find your way out, reminds me of a map I made once http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Only bad part about it is the AI couldn't handle all reaserch being done by finding ruins). Anyway I'll check it out tonight unless someone else wants to confirm it before then.

[Xrati]

That would explain why Renegade 13 and myself remember creating stars in a Nebula. I don't recall if I used the Ancient setting on the galaxy.

[Wolfman77]

I'll have to check the quadrant text when I get home to see if they show up in any others. I uce clusters usually and I don't recall them in that one but I have seen them in ancient, not sure about the rest yet.

[PvK]

Last time I created a star in a system-wide nebula during play, was in a much older version of the game than the current one. But it was possible at one point. There's another obscure reason or two one might want to do so, besides building a ring/sphere-world.

Of course, it used to be possible to move planets, too, until that bug was fixed.

I hadn't heard of the "vanishing star bug" though - what's that? Try to make a ring/sphere-world in a system with many planets, and the star just vanishes with no planet created?

PvK

[douglas]

PvK said:I hadn't heard of the "vanishing star bug" though - what's that? Try to make a ring/sphere-world in a system with many planets, and the star just vanishes with no planet created?


That might be the "vanishing stellar object" bug. Basically, whenever a star destroyer, nebula creator, or black hole creator is used, there is a chance that some seemingly randomly chosen stellar object just disappears. It could be a star, it could be a planet (even a sphereworld), or it could be half of a warp point.

[PvK]

Oh WOW... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif good to know!


PvK

[Arkcon]

Yeah, its an old bug. {Clicky} (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB23&Number=90642&Forum=A ll_Forums&Words=vanishing&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Ma in=90641&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=2937&dater ange=1&newerval=5&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype= &bodyprev=#Post90642)Like they said, it was too rare for MM to pin down. But its becoming more common, when you increase objects like Fyron's Quadrant Mod, or now that the TDM Modpack uses stellar manipulation so often. Late game TDM Modpack in FQM is practically surreal. Wierdness starts happening like once every 10-20 turns.

[douglas]

Arkcon said:
Yeah, its an old bug. {Clicky} (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB23&Number=90642&Forum=A ll_Forums&Words=vanishing&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Ma in=90641&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=2937&dater ange=1&newerval=5&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype= &bodyprev=#Post90642)Like they said, it was too rare for MM to pin down. But its more common, when you increase objects like Fyron's Quadrant Mod, or now that the TDM Modpack uses stellar manipulation so often. Late game TDM Modpack in FQM is practically surreal. Wierdness starts happening like once every 10-20 turns.


Try blowing up 30 stars at once in a PBW game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. I lost 5 planets, noticed one formerly trinary system was now binary, and two warp points became one-way - and that's just what I noticed, all of which was in my space except for one of the one-way warp points.

[Wolfman77]

I ran into a one way warp point once not long after I started playing. I just assumed at the time that I missed a log about an event happening. Now I know what happened.

On a pevious note, I checked the text files. The nebula you can create stars in (as opposed to the system wide storms that can be destroyed) they have a setting of 3 out of 1000 in all quadrants exept ancient where they are at 10 out of 1000. There are five of them listed so .3% five times (note: this does *not* mean 1.5%) in most quads. System storms occur much more frequently.

[Arkcon]

douglas said:
Try blowing up 30 stars at once in a PBW game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. I lost 5 planets, noticed one formerly trinary system was now binary, and two warp points became one-way - and that's just what I noticed, all of which was in my space except for one of the one-way warp points.

Well then, we'll have to hope that the "determine which object gets destroyed" sub-routine in SE5 gets a complete re-write instead of a quick and dirty patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif