OT question about elves

[Wolfman77]

When refering to something made by the Elves, is it "Elvish", "Elven", niether, or both depending on situation or personal preferance? If niether, then what is proper? If both, depending on situation then how do I tell. How about when refering to ideas thought by them? Would it be "Elvish way of thinking" or "Elven way of thinking"?

How about Dwarves or Orcs? I think "Dwarven" is right but I'm not sure.

If anyone knows I would like to hear before I type it out too much. Thanks.

[Suicide Junkie]

Perhaps you should use "-ish" for "in a similar manner to species X"
While using "-en" for "an actual X made this"

[NullAshton]

The proper term is Elven, I believe. Elven way of thinking, Elven armor...

[Alneyan]

Orcish is the only adjective form I ever heard for Orcs; there is the occasional Dwarfish for Dwarves, but Dwarven is a lot more common.

Make your own choice for Elves: Elven, Elvish, and Elfin are relatively common, with Elven being the most widespread, and Elfin rather common in lighter writings.

Still, you can get away with making up your own adjectives: Tolkien did just that, and created some new plural forms, if memory serves. Some names have so many variations it isn't even funny: Morgan/Morgana/Morgane/Morgain/Morgaine La/Le Fey/Fae (and a couple of others, including Fée or Fee perhaps, or even Fata), and other such names where spelling varies wildly.

[inigma]

Elven would equate to American
Elvish would equate to Americanish

Drop the "h" and you'll understand what happened to a famous singer.

Elvish would be "elf-like" for "ish" means "like," or "as unto".

Elven is an adjective. It would be used to describe the people, places, and things related to an elf.

Elvish is also an adjective. It would be used to describe nouns that are "like" Elven. To say a sword made by an elf is an Elvish swords is to use improper english. It is more proper to say that that it is an Elven sword.

However, a sword made by a human to look like an Elven sword would in fact be properly called an Elvish sword.

When describing a noun's relationship to an elf, it is Elven.

When describing a elf-like noun's relationship to anything other than an elf, it is Elvish.

Same goes for other creatures.

For example, you say it's an "American car" or "Japanese car." You never say it's an "Americanish car" or a "Japanesish car."

[inigma]

It's also phonetically related to Latin:

"en" means "in"

So American (pronounced Ahmehreghkin) means an adjective describing something being related "in" America.

"Ish" does mean "like" as in "it's saucer-like in appearance". Ish implies a disassociation with the connected noun. So Elvish would be anything like an Elf but disassociated with an Elf.

Also, phoneticaly "Elven" is "Elfen" and you start to understand from a phonetical perspective that it's literally "Elf in".

Elf in
Elf like

This is the basic difference between "en" and "ish".

[Baron Munchausen]

Prior to Tolkien the adjective was 'elfin' or 'elfish' actually. These are still valid, but now much less used than 'elven' and 'elvish'. And yet, the 'Tolkien' style is the older and original style! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif In fact the 3rd edition of the American Heritage Dictionary still lists only 'elfin' and not the newer/older style 'elven'.

elf·in -- adjective

1. a. Relating to or suggestive of an elf. b. Made, done, or produced by an elf.
2. Small and sprightly; mischievous.
3. Having a magical quality or charm; fairylike: moved across the dimly lit stage with elfin grace.

elf·ish also elv·ish -- adjective

1. Of or relating to elves.
2. Prankish; mischievous.

It's the same with dwarf -- dwarfin/dwarfish and dwarven/dwarvish. Tolkien revived the older style. Somewhere or other in the Letters he sets out the argument why this is in fact the correct form but I don't know where to find it now. He was a philologist, remember. The dainty 'elfin/dwarfin' form is a pseudo-Medieval coinage from the late Renaissance/Shakespearean times.

[inigma]

phonetics knows no spelling style.

Elven and elvish are two totally different sounding phonograms.

Elven can be spelled Elfin, and elvish can be spelled elfish. That is not in dispute.

The difference, I think, is in phonetics, and the "en" sounding ending is meant to imply a straight relationship; whereas the "ish" sounding ending is meant to imply associative relationship.

To prove my point: you can have Elvenish, but never elvishen.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

All of which is completly irrevelent...

*Pauses for a moment*

...Can you imagine your typical fantasy elf putting up with the word 'Elvish'? Waaay to silly. 'Elven' is much more dignified.

So I guess it depends on wether you ask the elf...Or the dwarf.

[inigma]

yeah, just ask an elf.

just dont ask what dwarfs and elves would call the other though. not suitable for children.

[Kamog]

How about Elvian / Dwarvian, Elvese / Dwarvese, Elvers / Dwarvers, Elfie / Dwarfie, Elfatoid / Dwarfatoid...

[Fyron]

Narfie!

[Atrocities]

No, Elfs cannot fire snowballs like bullets from a machine gun, that was just Hollywood being Hollywood.

[Wolfman77]

Well in SE IV they'll be more like missiles......with dispell magic for PD.........

[Caduceus]

Actually, Fyron, I believe it is Narfish.

If he stops believing in something, it will be Narfilism.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

And if I pound you flat, it's Narfialation.

[NullAshton]

There's going to be some narficide if you don't get back on topic.

It's elven. The elven language, dwarven language...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

You would threaten a poor little mousey?! You heartless human, you!

[NullAshton]

Yup. I have lots of mouse traps, all around my house. Booya.

[Wolfman77]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm using "elven" and "dwarven". I think "orcish" sounds like the way to go there, "orcen" seems just wrong. My setting is middle earth, but I'm not concerned about being precice on Tolkien's spellings, just close enough for the feel of it. Though I'm may here about anything that isn't just right. Oh well.

[NullAshton]

Orcish is right, there is no orcen.

[Wolfman77]

Yes, sometimes I just feel the need to state the obvious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

NullAshton said:
Yup. I have lots of mouse traps, all around my house. Booya.



Ooh, fun.

* Five minutes later...

You might want to be carefull the next time you use your phone.

[Possum]

Umm, there are elves in SE5?

Space elves! Yes!

WTH not? I mean, Warhammer 40K has Space Orks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif