LZ X-RAY Commanders names

[Boonierat]

Pyros,

Here's what I could find about the leader names of 1/7, hope it helps:

1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry:
-LTC HAROLD G. MOORE, CO
-MAJ LEON J. McCALL, XO
-SGM BASIL PLUMLEY, Command Sergeant Major
-CPT JERRY E. WHITESIDE , Artillery FO
-1st LT CHARLES HASTINGS, Air Force FAC

Headquarters and Heaquarters Company:
-CPT THOMAS METSKER

Company A:
-CPT RAMON A. NADAL, CO
-1st LT JAMES L. LITTON, XO
1st Platoon:
-2d LT ROBERT E. TAFT
2d Platoon
-2d Lt. WALTER J. "JOE" MARM
3d Platoon
-2LT CHARLES ANDERSON

Company B:
-CPT JOHN D. HERREN, CO
-1st LT KENNETH E. DUNCAN, XO
1st Platoon:
-2d LT AL DEVNEY
2d Platoon
-2d LT HENRY HERRICK
3d Platoon
-2d LT DENNIS DEAL

Company C:
-CPT ROBERT H.EDWARDS
-1st LT JOHN W.ARRINGTON
1st Platoon:
-1st LT JAMES H. APPLEGATE
2d Platoon
-2d LT JOHN L. GEOGHEGAN
3d Platoon
-2d LT WILLIAM W. FRANKLIN

Company D:
-CPT LOUIS R. "RAY" LE FEBVRE
-1st LT JEFFREY H. WHITE
Mortar Platoon:
-1st LT RAUL E. REQUERA-TOBOADA
?

2d Battalion, 7th Cavalry:
-LTC ROBERT A. McDADE, CO

Company B:
-CPT MYRON DIDURYK, CO
-2d LT JAMES BELL, XO
1st Platoon:
-?
2d Platoon
-?
3d Platoon
-?

2d Battalion, 5th Cavalry:
-LTC ROBERT B TULLY, CO

Company C:
-CPT EDWARD A. BOYT, CO
1st Platoon:[/b]
-?
2d Platoon
-?
3d Platoon
-?

[Pyros]

Great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Btw, does anyone know what support elements had been used (from the NVA) during the LZ X-ray battle?

I would also like to inform you that I am in contact (emails) with a veteran of that battle: Russell L Ross
and the webmaster of the http://www.lzxray.com/ site and I wait a response from the agent of Lt Gen Harold G. Moore.

cheers,
Pyros

[Listy]

IIRC: It was mortars and HMG's only in support

[Pyros]

Hi Listy,

Do you know what quality and quantity of these mortars?
What about their location (arty park)?

What about NVA AA assets?

I know that a support formation of heavy mortars (120 mm) and some medium AA assets were on route to reinforce the LZ X-ray front, but I don't know if they participate in the LZ X-ray battle...

cheers,
Pyros

p.s Is it an exaggeration if we get contact with the Vietnamish ministry of defense/ historical department? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

p.s I know that Moore (in his book) has such details... does anyone has access to that book?

[Listy]

Yes, I've got that book, thats where I think I remembered the mortars.

[Pyros]

Listy,

Please could you look your book in order to find valuable info?

cheers,
Pyros

[Listy]

OK post a list, of what you want.

BTW: the list of battles and stuff i posted else where was taken from that book.

[Pyros]

As boonierat and Touchard Laurent have already started to post:

1. Formations (platoons) with names of the leaders
2. Equipment and quality of these platoons (both US and NVA/VC)
3. Any close map with deployment of locations (I already have several)
4. Anything good on the time allocation, quality and quantity of arty & air support for both US and NVA.
5. An estimation on the experience level of the various units (modified custom experience level)
6. What is the armament of these units?

I know this already too much to ask... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

cheers,
Pyros

[Listy]

From what I remember (As Like A true Idiot, I left the book at home, when meaning to bring it to work with me).

1. Formations (platoons) with names of the leaders
already done up above?

2. Equipment and quality of these platoons (both US and NVA/VC)
He only gives his forces equipment list. and it's different the to the AirCav formation in the OOB. M79 and M60 in each squad, no separate HW section, and no LAW's.

3. Any close map with deployment of locations (I already have several)

4. Anything good on the time allocation, quality and quantity of arty & air support for both US and NVA.

The US Stuff was Very good, apart from the one mis-aimed Napalm strike. One Quote I do remember is Something like "...At any point we could look out into the Bush and see a constant stream of exploding Bombs and arty not more than 50 yards away..."

So I would whack the arty's and air support EXP levels up alot so they're right on the money. apart from One Napalm armed plane who drops in the wrong place.

5. An estimation on the experience level of the various units (modified custom experience level)
Well the US forces normally managed to keep a constant stream of fire going out, and seemed quite good, their morale was good as well, even when they lost their officers they hung on fighting.

The NVA I can only guess at. Their discipline was Very good, being able to move quitely into position, then hold on until the order to attack was given.

6. What is the armament of these units?
Ask General Han, I've only read the US side of things, however there is a part where Hal Moore talks about force compositions...

[Pyros]

Listy said:
Ask General Han, I've only read the US side of things, however there is a part where Hal Moore talks about force compositions...



to be honest, I am considering to ask for their point of view... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

david, thanks for the prompt response.

[wulfir]

Boonierat said:

2d Battalion, 7th Cavalry:
-LTC ROBERT A. McDADE, CO

Company B:
-CPT MYRON DIDURYK, CO
-2d LT JAMES BELL, XO
1st Platoon:
-?
2d Platoon
-?
3d Platoon
-?




One of the platoon leaders in Bravo Company 2/7 Cav was a former British soldier named Cyril R. "Rick" Rescorla who had volunteered for service in Vietnam. Previous combat experience from Africa. Rescorla died September 11, 2001 during the WTC attack. IIRC he is the soldier on the cover of the book by Hal Moore.

Additional stuff 2/7 CAV at the time of LZ X-Ray and LZ Albany.

Bn XO: Major Frank Henry
S3: Captain Jim Spires
Recon Platoon: Lt David 'Pat' Payne

Alpha Company
Captain Joel Sugdinis
XO 1Lt Larry Gwin
First Sergeant Frank Miller

1st Plt - SFC (Sergeant First Class?) James L. Fisher (Jack Hibbard sick)
2nd Plt - 2Lt Gordon Grove, Sergeant Charles L. Eshbach
3rd Plt - 2Lt William Sisson, Sergeant William L. Farrell aka 'Pappy'
Mortar Plt - Sergeant Harold L. Braden (Mike Mantegna sick).

Company C
Captain John 'Skip' Fesmire

[Pyros]

Thanks Ulf http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Listy]

Right some info, taken from a skim reading of "We Were Soldiers Once... and Young".

LZ X-Ray,
Manpower:
1/7th Cav.
A Coy: 115.
B coy: 114.
C coy: 106.
D coy (Heavy weapons and recon trp): 76.

229 Assault helicopter: 16 UH-1.

LZ Falcon,
21st Arty: 2x battery of 6 guns each.
Bat C, OC: Bob barker.
Bat A, OC: Cpt Donald Davis.

66th Regiment:
7th, 8th, 9th battalions: aprox 515+44 officers, or, 450.
(The book gives both strengths; the 450 figure is General Han's).
H-15 Veit Cong main force battalion: 600.

Locations (these are the locations stated by Gen Han):
7th bat: A ridge Above X-ray, about 90mins away
8th bat: 12 hours away
9th bat: 500 Yards south.
H-15: 8 hours away.

Additional info:
The round trip for the helicopters was 30 minuets.
Each squad was carrying 2 LAW's for use on bunkers, trenches and Termite hills.

Hopefully more to follow.

[Pyros]

Great stuff Listy,

Here are few questions though:

Each company was assigned to carry a mortar with maximun ammo loaded inside the Huey, and the all mortars were given to the command of Co D.

What was the total number of the mortars assigned to Co D (3 from Co A, B & C and those that Co D was carrying = ?) ?

Did any additional mortars arrive as reinforcements?

I am certain that some regimental 8" arty has participate in the battle, can you find anything on this?

At the moment of "Broken arrow" what was the quantity & quality of the incoming support?

I haven't yet found anything about any NVA mortars and/or any NVA AA assets... Did the NVA use any mortars at all?

What was the TAC AIR used during the battle?

Number of ARA and Gunships assigned in the battle?

What could be a good model for the ARA?

cheers,
Pyros

[Listy]

Each company was assigned to carry a mortar with maximum ammo loaded inside the Huey, and the all mortars were given to the command of Co D.

What was the total number of the mortars assigned to Co D (3 from Co A, B & C and those that Co D was carrying = ?) ?

Gen Moore says that All the battalions mortars where lumped under D Co for the op. However D co lost most of it's officers and some managed to revert back to the line companies as they where found by the Line officers.

Did any additional mortars arrive as reinforcements?

Not that I know of, the only reinforcement I can remember is that of a Co (B?) from the 2/7th.

I am certain that some regimental 8" arty has participated in the battle; can you find anything on this?

There is no mention in the book about 8", only 105's. However there was almost constant Arty falling.

At the moment of "Broken arrow" what was the quantity & quality of the incoming support?

Quote:
"... And we received all available aircraft in South Vietnam for close air support. We had Aircraft stacked at 1,000-foot intervals from 7,000 to 35,000 feet, each waiting to receive target and deliver their ordnance."

That was at 0715 on the 15th.

About an hour later there was the friendly fire incident, the planes involved where F-100's armed with napalm.

I haven't yet found anything about any NVA mortars and/or any NVA AA assets... Did the NVA use any mortars at all?

I believe they may have had a few 12.7mm's AAA weapons.
What Gen Moore says the unit captured at the end of X-ray.
57x AK47, 44x SKS, 17x Degtyarev 4x maxim HMG's, 5x RPG-2, 2x 82mm mortars, 2 9mm pistols.
Destroyed on site:
100 "rifles and Machine guns"

Make of that list what you will.

What was the TAC AIR used during the battle?

A1E Sky Raiders of the 1st and 602nd Air commando squadrons.
F-100's as mentioned above. Beyond that, it is not mentioned. However that early in the war, a search of what squadrons where deployed to that theatre and what aircraft they where equipped with should provide an answer. It would include USMC air as well...

(On a side note, the building where I am at the moment has just been buzzed at 150 feet by a Catlina flying boat...)

Number of ARA and Gunships assigned in the battle?
ARA: C bat, 2nd battalion, 20th arty. Commanded by Maj Roger Bartholomew. 6x ARA, possibly another ARA, being flown by the battery commander.

4x UH-1 Gunships

What could be a good model for the ARA

Well the ideal solution is a Cluster weapon to pin troops in a large target area. However, with out the custom OOB (That comes later) the next best model would be a normal UH-1 with all 4 weapons slots with 4x7.25" rockets, and 12 rounds of HE each, oh and a very high ROF. The normal practice was to fire half the rockets in one big salvo, and save the rest for emergencies.

And now A question for you. The battle should last about 250-300 turns, if you go by the numbers... Obviously this IS to huge a number.
So how are we going to manage it?

[Pyros]

In order to answer this question we have to take account several parameters.

The basic, since this is a historical simulation is to recreate the battle with the best possible accuracy.

Since the human's decision could create havoc in such a big map we have to limited his option, this is why after further consideration I came up with this idea:

Instead of a single battle that could become something completely fictional and the player would lose the feeling of the battle, I propose that we do something innovating.

We should split the phase of the battle to chapters.
Each chapter will start at the point where the other will end. Also each chapter will be more easily manageable.

At the end we may include also a huge scenario with all the battle for the hardcore players.

There is also the possibility that we may connect the chapters in a campaign and the only unit that the player will have as core force will be his HQ unit (all other units will be FIX aux units (also this way the player will keep a score).

So we have 3 possibilities (we may do 1,2 or all of them):

1. a collection of 4-5 scenario (phases of the battle)
2. a huge battle with freedom to the player to do as he wish.
3. a campaign with a linear link of the scenarios of choice No1 (using a fixed core force of only a HQ units "Moore")


cheers,
Pyros

[Pyros]

Flown by Maj. Bruce Crandall, CO of Company A, 229th Combat Aviation Battalion "Snake 6," Moore conducted a high-altitude recon of the proposed LZ X-Ray at the base of Chu Pong mountain. Crandall was an all-American high school baseball player and a superb athlete; he was my roommate at flight school and later was a flying buddy in our first aviation unit. Two other fellow company commanders included Maj. John Radu, "Tiger 6," who commanded the gun company, "D"/229th, and Maj. Dick Rogers, "Preacher 6," who was the CO of "B"/229th-all old comrades from the 521st Engineer Company (Topo Aviation). An equally fine officer, Maj. (later Col.) Willard Bennett, "Cobra 6," was the CO of "C"/229th, another lift company.

[Pyros]

1/7th Cav's arrival had been preceded by artillery prep from LZ Falcon, five miles away. Fire support came from the 1st Cav's 1/15 Artillery and the 2/21 Artillery. All 12 guns had been moved by the 228th Aviation Battalion's CH-47 Chinooks. Escorting the lift birds was "Tiger 6"; Maj. John Radu personally led his birds while blasting and slashing everything ahead of the troopers.

[Pyros]

The new Huey "D" models used by the Snakes did not yet have mounts for the door guns. Freeman and Crandall made 22 flights into LZ X-Ray, with Freeman counting 14 medevac flights among the total. Each time they went in, the aircrew kicked out ammo, water and medical supplies and then loaded wounded and dead.

[Pyros]

lst Lt. (now Col.) Walter J. Marm is the only other MOH awardee from LZ X-Ray. He was a platoon leader in B/1/7th Cav who single-handedly engaged an NVA machine-gun bunker that pinned down his troops. He destroyed the gun and bunker and killed 11 NVA in the process. He was shot in the jaw and throat in the desperate action.

[Pyros]

At LZ X-Ray that night, Moore had tightened up security and had the men dig defensive positions all around the perimeter, although he placed the bulk of them facing the mountain. On the first day, he had lost 27 dead and 6 wounded, with 13 officers and 326 men remaining. In his defense, the artillery fired 4,000 rounds.

[Pyros]

Sixteen helicopters in five succeeding lifts airlanded battalion elements at LZ X-ray. A Company followed B Company unopposed into the landing zone, and the perimeter expanded. C Company arrived next, with little opposition, but as the helicopters airlanded D Company, they took numerous hits. The enemy killed one infantryman before he could dismount and wounded two helicopter crewmen. Moore radioed the second flight of eight helicopters to turn back until LZ X-ray could be stabilized. Supported by artillery, air strikes from the Air Force, and division gunships, the battalion had airlanded into X-ray by 1500.

[Pyros]

At a distance of 2 Km south of LZ_X-ray there is marked a village by the name Anta village.

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Spiller/images/pg014.gif

[Pyros]

In September the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile) arrived and brought with it the first U.S. Army division artillery to arrive in Vietnam.

The organization of the 1st Cavalry Division Artillery was typical of other division artilleries that followed. The division artillery consisted of three light 105-mm. howitzer battalions with three batteries of six guns each and an aerial rocket artillery battalion with thirty-nine aircraft. Most division artilleries contained three 105-mm. battalions but also included a fourth battalion of three 155-mm. howitzer batteries and one 8-inch howitzer battery. Whether aerial rocket artillery or heavy cannon artillery, the fourth battalion augmented and extended the range of the three 105-mm. battalions, each of which was in direct support of a brigade of the division.

Before the end of 1965, the remainder of the 1st Division Artillery arrived to provide support for the Big Red One in III Corps. Its organization was typical of most of the division artilleries that would arrive later, its fire power coming from three 105-mm. battalions and a composite 155-mm. and 8-inch battalion. The initial field artillery buildup also included the first few separate battalions that provided the general support and reinforcing fires needed to complement the divisional artillery.

15/10 To provide additional artillery support, Landing Zone COLUMBUS was established 4 1/2 kilometers to the northeast of X-RAY. This landing zone was midway between X-RAY and FALCON, where Batteries A and C of the 1st Battalion, 21st Artillery, were located. Battery B of the 1st Battalion, 21st Artillery, and Battery C of the 2d Battalion, 17th Artillery, were now moved into COLUMBUS.

The enemy broke contact and filtered back into the mountains after suffering tremendous losses. He was pursued with heavy firepower: cannon artillery continually pounded the area; Air Force tactical air provided continuous support with a fighter bomber on a target run on an average of once every fifteen minutes; but the most devastating support was provided by B-52 bombers which struck without warning six kilometers west of X-RAY. Though the bombers had been employed initially in Vietnam some six months earlier, this was their first use in direct support of U.S. troops on a tactical operation. For the next five days, the big bombers systematically bombed large areas of the Chu Pong Massif.



p.s PleiMe battle:
On the morning of 26 October, the Vietnamese task force conducted a sweep around the Plei Me camp. Five minutes after noon the task force encountered mortar, small-arms, and recoilless rifle fire. The force immediately took casualties and faltered. The two batteries of the 2d Battalion, 19th Artillery, responded at once with supporting fires, which enabled the task force to regroup, withstand the attack, and take the offensive.
Of the three North Vietnamese Army regiments, the 33d had been particularly hard hit. When the unit attacked Plei Me, its strength was 2,190 men. In actions against the 1st Brigade, the regiment had lost 890 men killed, more, than 100 missing, and still more suffering incapacitating wounds. Materiel losses had also been heavy. The regiment lost 13 of its 18 antiaircraft guns as well as 11 mortar tubes and most of its recoilless rifles.

p.s ***opponents:Reacting swiftly to the cavalry landings, the enemy Field Front ordered the 66th Regiment to attack the landing zone. Strong elements of the regiment were established on the ridge line overlooking the landing zone to provide a base of fire for the attack. The 9th and 7th Battalions of the 66th and a composite battalion of the 33d (the combined forces of what remained of the 2d and 3d Battalions) provided the initial assault forces.

[Listy]

Do a combo.

1. Do the mini-campaign, maybe have it as a totaly seperate chapter? Which was what I was thinking.

If that's the case you have to ask your self a Question. Do you want to do the whole battlion in each senario, say 50 turns each (About 5 hours) that way you wouldn't need to worry about ammo resupply as such (About 5 Senario's).

Or do you want to do it by focusing each of the companies (About 15 senario's!)?

Personly I'd go with the whole battlion. On each of the units work out a way of decreaseing the amount of men as caslties start being applied. we could even with careful work, work out which units lost whom, and apply them. It would also alow greater control over support assests.

2. Release the Big Battle to the public, as a hint of what we're working on here, and start getting them intrested. Sort of Baiting the water's.

The other Question is, are we going to include LZ Albany?

[Pyros]

David,

LZ albany will be covered in the 1st CAV Vietnam Campaign, for the moment lets focus on the LZ X-ray battle.

There are so many technicalities for this battle that I will start a new thread for this reason.

There is a very important parameter that we have to find a way to simulate: The rate of attrition because of combat casualties.

In such close combat we have to test a lot in order to assure that the units will behave the way they should behave.

There is always the danger that after 10 - 15 turns none unit will be present in the map (all killed)... :

cheers,
Pyros

[Weasel]

From LCol Moore's AAR they captured 82mm mortars, and he also states they used RPGs as "arty support".

[Listy]

Found 'em!
Mortars:
At 1315 1st paltoon of Bravo Co, was hit my 60mm and 82mm mortar fire.