SEIV: Play by Web

[Admiral]

Hello all,

I have created a server-based, "Play by Web" Version of Space Empires IV to greatly simplify the management of multiplayer "play by mail" type games. I would greatly appreciate it if I could have several volunteers (beta) test and play with this service so that I can then open it up for general player use. I also have another request or two, below.

The current features of this server are:

* A user registration system
* An unlimited number of games the server can manage (limited only by practical considerations, not architecture)
* Users can create games (and become the owner of that game)
* Users can join games; game owners can reject players they don't want
* Players can upload their empires; game owners can download all together in a .zip file
* Game owners upload the first turn only (after getting the empires and creating the universe); completely automated turn management by the server thereafter (host password is stored by the server)
* News items on a per-game basis
* Complete log of activities on the game
* Storage of the user-provided empire passwords in case Users drop out of games and need to be replaced - which are not revealed except to the replacement
* Configurable turn durations

The short-term planned features of this server are:

* A nice user interface (see below)
* Security enhancements to prevent malicious "stuff" (to be discussed with Aaron)
* E-mail alerts to the administrator when all player files received
* Automatic execution of turns when all player files received (trivial)
* E-mail alerts to players when the time limit is nearing and/or when they are holding everyone else up
* Automatic execution of turns when the time limit is up even without Users
* Removal/replacement of Users currently playing in games
* User administration screens
* Game creation privileges (or restrictions)
* E-mail acceptance of new turns
* Write a privacy policy

The longer-term planned features include:

* Support for multiple installations of the SEIV game, to provide for players who want the raw game, others the ModPack, and so forth
* Support for user-contributed AI files (after tests with the administrator)
* Support for user-contributed shipsets (which will be made available for player download)
* A player messaging system for private Messages
* A player bulletin board (probably by linking to EZboard or another similar technology)
* Statistic reporting on the games (e.g. to tell who gets their turns in on time reliably) and Users
* Full administrative capabilities

One of the major problems that I have, as a hard core systems developer (in a previous life) is that I have no skill with web page design, layout, or page flow. Hence, when you use this server, it will look spartan. If you like the service, and would like to write it's user interface, I welcome your assistance. (The UI is entirely HTML and JSP.)

Finally, once the service gets up and running, there will be administrative requirements (approving new games, approving Users to create games, handling user problems/complaints/issues, etc.) which will need attending to. I would welcome volunteers for this type of role when the time comes.

If you are interested in assisting or beta testing, please contact me at admiral@admiral.com at your earliest convenience.

Thank you,

Admiral

[This message has been edited by Admiral (edited 13 April 2001).]

[Richard]

Why is no one else interested in this?

I think this would be an AWESOME tool for playing SE:IV.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Baal]

This is an excellent tool. I would think you people would be all over this one. This is just what SEIV needs. I for one don't play PBEM because it's too slow. Maybe I'll start now.

[raynor]

I agree, Richard. I fired off an email Last night and was experimenting with it a bit around midnite. It is very, very cool. I'm gonna spend some more time this weekend testing it.

[Marty Ward]

I would love to try it except I never know when I will have free time.
I would love to take 3-4 days and play in a 10-20 player game. That would be awesome.

[Master Belisarius]

Yep, looks like a very good way to play SE4.
I'm sending an e-mail...

[Admiral]

New features added today, so far:

April 13, 2001: E-mail alerts to the administrator when all player files received
April 13, 2001: E-mail alerts to administrator when a new player joins his game
April 13, 2001: E-mail alerts to administrator when all empire files are uploaded to his game
Cheers,

Admiral

[Dracus]

I'll play around on it. Send the information to r-bradley2@ti.com

[Puke]

This sounds like a godsend! soon SE4 will have a larger following than VGAplanets had in the mid 90s! we will have se4 portals all over the web!

well, maybe. this is still sounding pretty darn cool though.

[Admiral]

One Last update for today...

The system now automatically executes and e-mails the new turns when all the players have uploaded their turn files.

The owner of the game can, as always, kick off a new turn whenever he wants.

In this fashion, this service is now fully automated. Once the game is set up and the first turn is uploaded by the owner, each subsequent turn requires no input from anyone but the players who must upload their turns.

Cheers,

Admiral

[CaptSpoogy]

Thanks to Admiral for taking the time to create this program.

This is what makes Space Empires IV a great game - the player's dedication.

[Instar]

This sounds cool. I want in! Send me info at instar_m@hotmail.com

[Phoenix-D]

Great! Does this system support both modes (i.e. turn based/simultanious) or only one?

Phoenix-D

[Admiral]

I'm not sure if it supports "turn based" multiplayer. I've only ever played the simultaneous one, and it certainly supports that. If the mechanics are different (which they probably are) then it would not be supported now, but it would almost certainly not be much effort to modify it in the future to accept both.

Cheers,

Admiral

[Admiral]

Remember, if you would like to join the beta test team, please e-mail admiral@admiral.com .

Additional new features installed today:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Highlights games in which you are playing in game list, also highlights your player record in a game
<LI> Administrator can reject new players from games
<LI> Zips all turn files, not just .gam, and e-mails a zip file after a turn (actually mails both, just for testing, now)
<LI> E-mail alerts to players when approved to join a game
[/list]

Thanks,

Admiral

[Darwin]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
This sounds like a godsend! soon SE4 will have a larger following than VGAplanets had in the mid 90s! we will have se4 portals all over the web!

well, maybe. this is still sounding pretty darn cool though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Already is, since long before SE4.

The SpaceEmpires fans are very web prolific, Especially us Roleplayers.

[Mephisto]

Indeed awesome. I'm in. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:
Why is no one else interested in this?

I think this would be an AWESOME tool for playing SE:IV.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Dracus]

Still need 4 more test players for my game.

[Jason2]

I have never played a game through the net but would like to try. Dracus if my novice level doesn't put you off - I'll play (and I'll understand if you'd rather I don't)

Jason2

[Will]

Keep us posted here! This sounds very interesting, a nice, fast way to play SEIV, or SEIII, SEV, SEVI (I can dream, right? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif )...

I don't really have time to personally have a hand in it's development, so I'll just give encouragement http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Dracus]

Jason You are more then welcome to play.

[zap_c]

wowsy! count me in if there's still room available!!
antioch@gmx.net

[Admiral]

I uploaded some new updates. Unfortunately, while uploading them, I accidentally wiped the database. I restored a backup from Friday... I made it very difficult for this to happen again. Sorry.

The updates:<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>April 16, 2001: Ability to change number of players (before game starts). Thus, administrators have the ability to start games before all players join.
<LI>April 16, 2001: User option to keep private or publish e-mail addresses to other players in a game
<LI>April 16, 2001: User can change password
<LI>April 16, 2001: User can change e-mail address
<LI>April 16, 2001: Begun work on nicer user interface (Eric Snyder II)
<LI>April 16, 2001: Bug: Fixed update description submit button
<LI>April 16, 2001: Fix: Check the uploaded file for first turn against the name the user says it should be
<LI>April 16, 2001: Bug: Check the entered base game filename does NOT end in .gam, and if so, remove it
<LI>April 16, 2001: Bug: Empire password not being pre-populated when uploading
<LI>April 16, 2001: Bug: Tell the user what the login name can be in registration screen
[/list]

Enjoy,

Doug

[This message has been edited by Admiral (edited 17 April 2001).]

[Aussie Gamer]

I hope that you all have the same data and race files otherwise it will not work!

Sounds great though!

Lets get a couple of leagues going-
one which has original files &lt;as per MM&gt; and one that has altered files.

How does that sound???

[LazarusLong42]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Gamer:
I hope that you all have the same data and race files otherwise it will not work!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good point. Anyone using the TDM ModPack shouldn't have any trouble because the important data is all the same (unless someone really wants to have AI's in a multiplayer game). But anyone with modified data for their own use will have to change their path.

I think that eventually the PBW system will have support for multiple game types.

LL

[Admiral]

I personally play the game with the TDM ModPack, but the PBW is set up "clean" right now.

As LL says, it will (eventually) support a variety of mods by dynamically rewriting the path.txt file prior to executing a turn. That's not the difficult part; the difficult parts are:

1) Making sure the uploaded zip file is set up properly to extract as a new mod directory.

2) Making sure that the se4.exe never pops up any UI windows under any circumstances (which is not the case today) when run from the command line.

Cheers,

Admiral

[Lupusman]

I signed up to play a game, and now I don't have the link/site anymore (actually it's on another computer, which I can't get to right now). Could someone send it to me again, or post it here please. I need to upload my race. Thanks.

[Jason2]

I would like to play by PBEM - where do I go to sign up? Um, I'm a novice to this so any and all info is mucho appreciated http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanx.

Jason2

[raynor]

The email address of this cool system's author is down at the beginning of this topic. I'd post it in this message but I want you to read all the Posts in between. This guy is a programming machine. He's already enhanced the system so much. Look for the Posts by: Admiral.

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 18 April 2001).]

[Dracus]

I have a second game set up.
The first one is under way.

[javaslinger]

Back from vacation! Did I miss a fat multiplayer game starting????

NOOOOOoooooo!!

Anyway, I'm in if I can get in!

Are we using the new 1.35 patch?

Thanks,

Ken

[Admiral]

We're running v1.30 stock.

I've moved up the "can run multiple Versions" on the priority to support v1.30 or v1.35. Selection can be made at game creation time; I am not certain I should allow mid-game changes.

Cheers,

Admiral

[Admiral]

Hello all... Some additional enhancements, including support for v1.35:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> Support for multiple installations of the SEIV game, such as to provide access to Version 1.30 and 1.35 games
<LI> An option to include the *_stats.txt player scores in the zip turn file (game owner use only)
<LI> Bug: Don't add the zip file when making the turn zip file
[/list]

[javaslinger]

So anyway... Can I get in this game? I'm dying to play multiplayer!

[Dracus]

They are not full blown games, they are more for testing the new server. Finding problems and such.
When admiral clears us for a full blown game. I will be glad to set one up.

[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 19 April 2001).]

[Admiral]

New features:

1) Delete games yourself
2) Kick players from running games (empire stays for someone else to take over)
3) Take over a previously vacated empire (it gives new player the empire password)

[LazarusLong42]

**bump**

[Lefty]

Can their be an option from the players perspective that dissallow he's empire from being taken over from another empire (when either kicked or can't continue).

The computer will continue to play his turn anyway.

Maybe I wouldn't like to give away tactics/strategies in such a manner (rather you work em out from the wrong end of a meson bLaster)

[Admiral]

Lefty, I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Please clarify?

[LazarusLong42]

I think in English, he's saying:

Could you have an option allowing a player to make the game host unable to replace him in the event he drops out--replacing him with the AI instead? This would prevent anyone from learning the strategies players use.

LL

[Admiral]

Two answers:

1) I _could_ do that from a technical standpoint of course

2) But _would_ I do that, given that people play multiplayer PBEM (or PBW) games to play other _humans_ and not the AI? After all, if we wanted to play AIs, we wouldn't be using multiplayer.

So, that said, given the reservations of #2, I'd put it way down the list to be taken care of by #1.

What do you think?

Admiral

[Lefty]

Developing strategies that no one else uses is part of the fun of multi-player.

I think the player, not the game host, should have the right to choose whether his empire is taken over if he goes away.

I play for the long run, but if I leave or get kicked out I should be able to let my secrets dissapear with me.

(BTW..my typing sucks)

[This message has been edited by Lefty (edited 24 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

If you know you're going to drop from the game, just scrap all your ships & abandon your planets, then surrender to somebody.

You vanish, your secrets intact.

[LazarusLong42]

SJ... that's pretty awesome. I like that idea. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

LL

[Admiral]

I wasn't going to say this, but...

SJ's tactic sounds pretty unsportsmanlike to me.

[Trachmyr]

C'mon, what "tactics" are you folks trying to preserve... most experienced gamers already know them, if you don't then you could probally just search this thread for 'em..... Most humans don't use scanner jammers, and once you get in combat, you'll know the ship's setup. So what are you trying to preserve... unless your cheating? (like altering your componet.txt file to make Phased polaron beams 20 tons instead of 30.... building a bunch of "extra" powerful ships... then changing the componets.txt file back... there will be no game error, your "special" ships will still be valid and builable (you just can't make new Versions of the ship unless you remod the componets.txt)... and it'd be unlikely you'd get found out... after all how many people count up the tonnage of enemy ships?)

I AM NOT suggesting/supporting cheating in any way, I'm just pointing out that this kinda thing is possible, and when someone dosen't want players to look at their ship designs in detail (since we all can in combat), it strikes me as suspicious...

I'm also not accusing anyone, I find it possible that someone might think they have an "awsome tactic"... usually they'll find that others alredy came up with it long ago.

[Lindan]

I'd like to give it a try.
lindan@zombieworld.com

thanks.

[javaslinger]

What is the difference between this play by web and the PBEM helper?

Thanks

Ken

[jimbob55]

The PBW system runs the turns on the game /web server. It used to execute the game turn as soon as everyone had uploaded their plr files. It doesn't seem to do that anymore.
Once the turn is processed, it's auto sent to all players to respond when they can.

Advantages : The host/ starting player doesn't have to worry about files and such. There's one upload and that's it. Offers a central 'meeting room' for players to get together and talk about the type of multiplayer game they want.

Disadvantages: If a player fails to upload the plr file, the game goes on hold until they do or the host executes the turn with the AI playing the missing player's turn.

The PBW allows some features that PBEM helper doesn't / can't yet: Forums for all registered players.
As it is still in Beta, developed by some enthusiasts, it isn't finished yet and is developing 'in an organic fashion'. Join the fun and join the games. Help make it work the way you want it to work.

I haven't played with PBEM helper, so I can't say which is better / best.

[Fuerte]

The main difference between Play By Web and PBEM helper is that Play By Web automates the server and PBEM helper automates the client side. PBEM helper has also support for hosting, but it is not fully automatic.

Admiral has said that he will add support for PBEM helper in Play By Web. When that is done, then both the server and client sides can be automated to the maximum.

------------------
PBEM (http://www.sci.fi/~fuerte/pbem.htm)

[Admiral]

Very nice summary, Jimbob.

It also supports automatic execution of turns after a specified duration. Unfortunately, because of some issues with command line, unattended operation (of the se4.exe program) with v1.30 and v1.35, the system must remain in beta and without automatic turn execution enabled.

The problem is related to the fact that the se4.exe program pops up dialog boxes (there is no player file, the player file is the wrong turn, etc) to which you must click "OK" or such before the turn will be processed.

Until the program is completely hands off in all circumstances, the server requires hand holding (someone must click these boxes) and is not very reliable.

Cheers,

Admiral

[Admiral]

Additional changes today include several bug fixes, complete integration of message forums, the ability to have nice user names (such as on this forum but even more flexible), etc.

Still waiting on fixes to the se4.exe program to allow it to be run reliably in a server environment prior to opening it up to general use.

Cheers,

Admiral

[Dracus]

What is going on with this, it is down again.....

[Admiral]

It isn't down as far as I am able to tell, nor has it gone down due to a crash or other reason. The Users were wiped, however, so you will have to re-register (as it says in big red letters on the main page).

Cheers,

Admiral

[Dracus]

All beta testers,
I have a new game set up....

[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 29 April 2001).]

[Puke]

I have a test game open now in each Version, will be starting weds. anyone is open to join with multiple accounts, one of the ideas is to generate some RCEs so that we can develop either a way for the server to handle it or to figure out what kind of manual inervention policy we can create.

ALSO, I would really like to see the PBEM helper working with the PBW server, so here is some feedback I recently posed to the PBEM Helper thread:


hey guys. I have been having some problems with the helper and sending out turns. here is what I have observed:

the MAPI mail features do not seem to work when another MAPI compliant mail client is open. at first I thought that multiple profiles were throwing it off, but it seems to work only when all other MAPI mail programs are closed.

The SMTP support seems to rely on having OPEN MAIL RELAYS. for those of you who dont know, this is generally considered a BAD practice and leads to spam portals, and is the very kind of thing those stupid nazis at ORBS go around DoS'ing fortune 500 companies for. basically what i am saying, is since the software is trying to drop mail onto an smtp server instead of actually logging onto (with username / pass) a POP mailbox, any properly configured SMTP server will only accept mail for local accounts, and therefore if i logged onto MY server, and tried to send mail to somewhere else, it would be denied since open relays are 'bad' and most SMTP ports are now only good for receiving mail.

..so, what I should be able to do is have it log on to my smtp server, send the mail to ME, and then I could forward it off to the correct destination with a POP, WEB, MAPI, or any other client in an ordinary fashion. when I tried this, the mail was not rejected as 'unknown address' or 'address not present locally' but instead I got some long string of output from the PBEM helpers smtp client window, and it scrolled by before I could read it, and the SMTP helpers error dialog stole context from me so I could not even access the scroll bars in the smtp dialogue.. so I cant figure out why that was not working, but I can tell you that it demonstrated the same behavior when talking to an exchange 5.5 and an exchange 2000 smtp server. I have not tried a sendmail server, if anyone would care to give this a shot, it would probably be helpful.

now dont get me wrong, this isnt a gripe. this is constructive input from the beta testing squad, and I have to appologize to the PBW guys out there that I have not been able to spend enough time on that service to put together the same level of feedback as I had promised, but hopefully when everything is fine-tuned, it will all be kosher pickles.

I think the PBEM Helper SMTP support may need to be changed to POP support if people dont have a mapi compatible client, but that still wont help the web-mail guys, whom are basically f-ed and will have to do it manually. the SMTP support would be perfect in conjunction with the play by web service though, since the SMTP server could just be pointed to the central web server that is hosting everything. that would even ensure faster turnaround and no email delay, since it would be dropped directly to the destination mail server from each player.

[Admiral]

Hey Puke and everyone,

There is no point in starting v1.35 games. That Version of the se4.exe program does not run any games from the command line at all. I've tested it now with about a half different games with about a hundred different turns.

So, you can only test it with v1.30 games. And the v1.30 Version of se4.exe will not work if any turn is missing OR the wrong turn (because it will pop up a dialog box).

I have heard no acknowledgement about these issues from either Shrapnel or Malfador. As the PBW system is useless until these are addressed (or at least, acknowledged and planned to be addressed) I have more or less ceased to enhance it's current level of functionality. I don't want to spend another several hundred hours making a system which will never work because the underlying se4.exe doesn't properly run.

Cheers,

Admiral

[Admiral]

Oh one more thing on POP, Puke...

POP does not support sending of mail (at least, not per the standard I am aware of, there may be proprietary extensions for it). IMAP does, and SMTP does. Most ISPs provide a non-open SMTP relay server for their clients.

Cheers,

Admiral

[Puke]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Admiral:
Oh one more thing on POP, Puke...

POP does not support sending of mail (at least, not per the standard I am aware of, there may be proprietary extensions for it). IMAP does, and SMTP does. Most ISPs provide a non-open SMTP relay server for their clients.

Cheers,

Admiral<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh thats right... dialup ISPs can have internal servers only visible to their clients, i forgot about that. i tend to use between 3 and 5 different services thru any given day, so anything i want to access needs to be visible through the public net. i guess people will need to either use an internal server, or use VPN then. and you are right, pop is incoming (to client) only - i had thought it might do something since it supports authentication, alas i was wrong.

[jimbob55]

Looking for as many players to join a game to start next week (Monday 7th May).

Please join and play.
It will be full tech, maximum bonus and 5000 race points. If we can squeeze 20 players in, it'll be fun (a bloodbath, but fun).

Visit : http://seiv.admiral.com/index.html
To register, the interface is fairly easy to navigate. The game will be called Sardines.

Sticking with SE4 Version 1.30 for the time being until some of the 1.35 bugs are ironed out.
Thanks for your time.

[Admiral]

Quite a few updates to Play by Web this week.

The system is now very stable, and as long as the Users stay within the parameters of the bugs in the current 1.30 Version, works quite well (that is, don't upload corrupted .plr files or the wrong turn).

The system now has many administrative capabilities and unusual circumstances should be more easily resolved.

I would say the system is ready for primetime, but until the command line se4.exe problems are fixed, it will have to stay in beta.

I hope this is useful to the community, and I appreciate your support to date.

Thanks,

Admiral

[Admiral]

The Play by Web server is now fully functional!

It can recover from almost all errors by the se4.exe program, a contributor (Georgig) wrote a work-around "auto-click" program, and administration is fully functional.

The system is almost ready to leave Beta stage and enter Gamma or even limited production.

Lots left to do on the "to do" list, but they're increasingly only "nice to have" rather than "must have" features.

Cheers,

Admiral

[Deathstalker]

Does this mean it works with the 1.35 patch??
Or is it still 1.30 only??

[Admiral]

1.35 does not work. This is not something that can be worked around; it is simply completely broken, rather than inconvenient.