OT: BSG Discussion

[geoschmo]

Something occured to me reading AT's BSG empire description. In the series the population in the fleet is around 50K. As far as they know that's pretty much all that's left of the human race. If the object was to survive as a species, does it make sense for the fleet to remain together like they are? All they can do is run and hope they don't get caught. They can't hope to fight off a serious Cylon offensive if they are found.

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to be seeding every habitable planet they find with small groups of people? Establishing many small self-sufficent colonies all over the place. The colonists would have to severly limit their use of technology, no radios, no structures visable from orbit or easily spotted from the air. Careful argricultural practices like no geometric food plots.

Reverting to a low-tech agricultural lifestyle would be difficult, but it would seem to preferable to a slow death by starvation and disease couped up in ships. These colonies would be sitting ducks if they were found by the cylons, but if you establish enough of them and keep them quiet, the cylons shouldn't be able to find all of them.

I'm thinking around 100 people per planet, and then further spread out in villages of a dozen people or so should be viable. You would lose some genetic diversity over the course of many generations, but if you did some careful screening beforehand you should be able to lessen the worst of the negative effects of that.

Anyway, interesting to think about.

[Renegade 13]

You might be right, but the problem is the Cylon spies aboard. Would they not inform their leaders where every single defenseless colony was?

[geoschmo]

Hmmm, that's a point. I was thinking if they could do that then they should be able to catch the fleet easy anyway. But I guess it's easier going back later and picking off stationary colonies then finding a fleet jumping around and never staying too long in one place.

This whole infiltrator thing is really a drag! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[ZeroAdunn]

Actually, they have yet to find a habitable planet excluding kobol. Remember earth like planets are pretty rare in the BSG verse. From what I understand the season finale will deal with the issue of finding a habitable planet and whether to settle down or not.

Of course, like renegade said, the cylon spies aboard are the problem. Is all it takes is for them to get a message out with the location of every planet the humans are on, and its orbital bombardment for the poor souls who aren't in the fleet.

[Black_Knyght]

A thought that occurs to me here - Both the Cylons and the Colonials seem to have the technology to detect and identify life on a planet, at least to a limited degree.

You start droppin' off folks to colonize new worlds, a few here and some there, and sooner or later along comes the Cylons and start pickin' 'em off in small groups. The Cylons are following, however distant or discreetly. They would more than likely take notice of efforts to " seed " humanity.

Now, given that's the last thing they want, even if they only discovered one or two groups they'd more than likely keep hunting down the main fleet but send reserve units out to mop up and clean out any humans they find, and maybe even search likely worlds for more.

Just a thought....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Set up a fake settlement scene, and bury the dead from the ship on the planet?

Nice little distraction... and they can watch for anyone trying to leak word that its a setup.

[geoschmo]

The cylons following them isn't so much of a problem. You don't need to bring the whole fleet. Once you've scouted the planet with raptors or whatever, you simply have one ship jump a different distance and off a few degrees. The ship drops off a hundred or so people and rejoins the fleet at a predetermined coordinate later on. Anyone tailing the fleet isn't likely to notice anything.

Space is really big after all. It should be very difficult for the cylons to find these colonies. Unless they can simply jump into a system and listen for radio signals or something. If they have to look for habitable planets and then carefully survey each planet it would take forever to find them. Even if they found the planets they might not find the people.

The concern about infiltrators is valid though. If someone is feeding them info about where to look it would be quite easy to go after them.

[Atrocities]

In a recent episode, (SPOILER) Baltar provided some info about the expected survival rates of man kind. It was not good. I think they would all need to find a planet, a safe one, and then all settle it in order to give rebirth to humanity.

Ideally, I suspect that at some point it will become a virus war or simular. It is really the only option to beat the organic based machines of the cylon empire now.

Also it could be written in that they find other human occupied worlds, like they did in the origal series, and spark off a little side war. No one wants to take on an enemy of someone they don't know especially if that enemy has big powerful nukes and wants to purge the galaxy of man kind.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

They could run into a galaxy far, far away and not so long ago!

[Atrocities]

Oh great give Lucas another excuse to shut down yet another sci-fi show.

[Wolfman77]

I don't think he needs an excuse, he just forgets to take his medication every now and then.

[ZeroAdunn]

I hope they don't run into other human occupied worlds. It just doesn't seem right.

As for beating the cylons: I don't think that'll happen. What I think would be ideal would be if they found earth, and in the final episodes they manage to make a truce with the cylons. They have been dealing a lot lately with the fact that it isn't enough to survive, the humans have to be worthy of surviving, I would hope this would tie into the final stages of the series, maybe even being the reason the cylons are finally willing to stop hunting the humans.

[Hunpecked]

ZeroAdunn: "I hope they don't run into other human occupied worlds. It just doesn't seem right."

Not necessarily. Colonial tradition is that they originated somewhere else (and of course we know their ancestors migrated from the Sol system). Presumably the migration would have left colonies on habitable worlds along the migration route. If the Colonial fleet is traveling in the general direction of Sol (allowing for stellar movement), it's not unreasonable for them to find some of these old colonies, which may in fact have thrived and surpassed the Colonials in technology and population.

[geoschmo]

I also don't have a problem with there being small colonies scattered around that were offshoots of the Twelve Colonies. People complain about that from the orginal series, but it never was a problem for me. Even planets that the twelve colonies weren't aware of. Certain types of people have always tended towards living far away from population centers, and they might not want everyone knowing where they are.

[Suicide Junkie]

Exactly.

The only sensible numbers are:
Zero, One, Infinity.

If they've already got *twelve* colonies, more is not at all far-fetched.

[ZeroAdunn]

I meant right form the perspective of the series. It has already been stated that earth type planets are rare. Hence the plot of "Water". I am not apposed to other human colonies, I am apposed to large space faring civilizations in the show. It removes the feel of the last humans out there searching for a way to survive. Even with the promise of earth, we have no way of knowing what they will find when they get there, wheras the discovery of other human colonies (especially advanced or well populated ones) kinda cheapens the deal. I don't mind finding a small colony of humans or something, but the consequences for galactica discovering them would have to be explorered, as I don't think the cylons are going to take kindly to more humans.

[geoschmo]

Yeah, "Earth type" planets in the BSG universe are exceedingly rare. Except for the twelve in close proximity to each other that became The Colonies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

My sarcasm isn't directed at you Z, just at the inconsistency of that particular plot device. Maybe the reason they are so rare in the rest of the galaxy is that they are all concentrated in one little area. Law of averages and all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Azselendor]

Earth-Planets aren't rare in BSG, they occur every season finale!

As doe the 12 colonies, I surmise they were spread across a few planets and several habitable moons. A star system with 12 planets is just hard to believe.

[Randallw]

What I want to know is why we only ever see Caprica. What's happening on the other 11 planets?.

[Black_Knyght]

A quick thought, from a " Devil's Advocate " point of view -

Who said anything about there being twelve readilly habitable planets in the Colonial system ? What are the chances that " X " number of them were terraformed to suit the needs of the colonists? That all of them were even conventionally sized planets, instead of large, convertable planetoids or moons ?


Just thinking out loud.......

[geoschmo]

You all seem to be assuming that the twelve colonies are in one star system. I had always assumed they were in different, but nearby systems. Is there something in the show that says one way or the other?

One star system is pretty unbelievble. Even if you are talking about terraformed worlds. For there to be twelve suitable workds they'd have to either be so close together they'd be interfering with each others orbits, or so far apart that most of them would be outside the range of tolerable conditions for human life. I guess a few could be moons, but it's pretty hard to imagine a system with enough moons that are large enough to hold human-life supporting atmospheres in the proper range of distance form the sun.

I'm not saying the show isn't intending us to believe the twelve colonies are in one system, although I don't remember actually hearing that, but it's not very feasible.

[Fyron]

There is not a need for assumption, as they are clearly shown to be in different _constellations_ entirely in the episode where they open the ancient observatory in the tomb of Athena.

[geoschmo]

Imperator Fyron said:
There is not a need for assumption, as they are clearly shown to be in different _constellations_ entirely in the episode where they open the ancient observatory in the tomb of Athena.

I don't think that was saying the constellations were the actual star charts of the locations of the twelve colonies, although it's been a while. I'll have to pay more attention when they rerun that episode. My recollection was just that the constellations were representative of the twelve colonies, and if they could find the planet who's starfield matched the constellations in the observatory they would have found earth.

I believe the Zodiac constellations are scattered accross our sky. If they were star charts of the Twelve Colonies then we would be located in the midst of them, not at the end of a long journey as they seem to present in the series, would we not?

[Fyron]

The whole point was to get a map to earth. The map is pretty useless if it has no bearing on the real galaxy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I do recall them saying that they would find earth when they found the position in space where the sky looked like what it did in the observatory.

"The scriptures say that when the 13th tribe landed on Earth, they looked up into the heavens and saw their 12 brothers." - Starbuck

"There is a place where you can look up into the sky and see the consellations of the 12 colonies." - President

Then there is talk of Lagoon nebula and having a map and a direction.

[geoschmo]

I still think you are being too literal. Those quotes don't state unequivically that the constellations mark the positions of the colonies.

It's like the 13th colony gets to earth and looks at the stars. They see a grouping that looks like a bull and one that looks like two fish and they say, "Hey, that's our brothers Leo and Pices." That doesn't nessecarily mean that those constellations are where the colonies are located. Just that they found shapes in the sky that were representative of the other colonies.

Someone stading on earth looking at the twelve zodiac constellations would be closer to some of those stars then some of those stars are to each other. If the colonies are actually in those constellations they shold have found Earth already. For that matter they should have never lost it.

[Fyron]

They were very literal in the episode... I'm just going by what all of them said, not applying any interpretation. Did you see the quotes I edited in before you posted?

[ZeroAdunn]

The problem is, assuming that they were speaking literally, that means the colonies are spread out all over the galaxy, and thus the "way past the readline" quote from the miniseries doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

And of course, why would you take scripture literally?

[geoschmo]

Imperator Fyron said:
They were very literal in the episode... I'm just going by what all of them said, not applying any interpretation. Did you see the quotes I edited in before you posted?

Yes I saw the quotes. They don't literally say the colonies are in the constellations. They "saw their 12 bothers" could be taken to mean shapes that reminded them of the other colonies. Rosalinds quote about "the constellations of the twelve colonies" could also mean constellations that are representative of the twelve colonies. Nothing in those quotes can only be interpreted in the way that you are are interpreting it. As far as I know they never say clearly that they mean the constellations mark the positions of the colonies.

[geoschmo]

Something else that just occured to me. If the constellations actually mark the positions of the colonies then the observatory map gives them all the information they need to locate earth. Looking at the map would give them a bearing to each colony from earth. Since obviously they know the positions of the twelve colonies, even without distances you could triangulate the exact position of earth.

Even if you assume they weren't able to record the images they saw, Adama, Starbuck and Appolo are all trained as pilots. You would have to assume that even with a brief glance at the starmap they could recall enough to sketch it again fairly reliably.

That pretty conclusivly proves the constellations in the starfield on earth are merely metaphors for the colonies. It is an accurate representation of the view of the stars from earth, so it is useful to verify earth once they find it. But it's not helpful in finding earth unless you can relate the stars in that perspective to the perspective seen from Kobol or the colonies.

If you have accurate charts of all the stars in the galaxy, and a precise copy of the observatory map you could probably run a computer simulation that could compare the starfields from every spot in the galaxy. But that might take longer then any of them would be alive, even for a computer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And you'd have to assume they recorded the observatory view and aren't just going by memory.

[Renegade 13]

My interpretation of that episode (just saw it for the first time last night!) was that the constellations they saw were representative of the 12 colonies, but not indicative of their actual physical locations.

Think of it this way: If the constellations were actually indicative of the locations of the colonies, it would be extremely simple using some basic math to determine an approximate volume of space to search for Earth. After all, you have the point of view of Earth (presumably) and the locations of 12 points that are visible from Earth. Easy enough to find.

I think they were just saying "Hey, if we can find where these constellations appear to us as they appear here, Earth will be near!" Noting also certain landmarks such as the Lagoon Nebula. Though that particular sighting bothered me a lot, since the Lagoon nebula is not anywhere near that bright nor large in the sky...on the contrary, I don't think it's even visible to the naked eye...bad science!

My biggest question from that episode is; how the hell did they get out of where they were when they saw the constellations? There was no visible exit point! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Fyron]

geoschmo said:
As far as I know they never say clearly that they mean the constellations mark the positions of the colonies.

The rest of the conversation explicitly refers to it as a literal map to follow, however. It would be simple to use them as such, but the plot doesn't call for simplicity.

[Fyron]

"The scriptures say that when the 13th tribe landed on Earth, they looked up into the heavens and saw their 12 brothers." - Starbuck

"There is a place where you can look up into the sky and see the consellations of the 12 colonies." - President

"I don't know what good its gonna do us though; what are we supposed to do, search the entire galaxy for one particular star pattern?" - Starbuck

"There, Scorpio. I've seen that before. Thats the Lagoon Nebula." - Apollo

"Thats astral body M-8. Thats a long way from here." - Adama

"Yeah. But at least now we have a map and a direction." - Apollo

- cut to speech at podium -

(emphasis added)

=0=

Doesn't seem very metaphorical to me to refer to abstract pictures as a map and a direction to search for in the entire galaxy. The characters (at least Starbuck and Apollo) are interpreting the scriptures literally here, not seeing the map as metaphorical or representative.

[geoschmo]

All of which proves my point I believe. Starbuck talks about looking for star patterns. That tells me they don't know exactly what stars they are looking at, which they would if the colonies were in the constellations. The constellations are metaphors. The only way the map is useful is by comparing the view form different planets to find one that matches the view shown on the map.

The Lagoon nebulae is the only specific object they recognized. But you can't triangulate a position from one point and a bearing. You need at least two known points with bearings to them. That would give you two possible locations for earth. A third known point and bearing would give you the exact location.

What the Lagoon nebulae does give them is an general idea of the part of the galaxy to look in. Since they know they need to look for a planet where the Lagoon nebulae would be visible, that gives them a point and a distance. From that you can't triangulate an exacpt position, but you can plot of sphererical area of space in which to search.

Everything you've posted here agrees with my idea that the constellations are simply patterns that represent the colonies, and not actually locations of the colonies themselves.

[geoschmo]

geoschmo said:
You need at least two known points with bearings to them. That would give you two possible locations for earth.

This part wasn't quite right. I was thinking about plotting locations in two dimensions, like on the surface of a planet. Traveling through space in 3 dimensions two known points and bearings would allow you to plot a circle perpendicular to a line connecting the two points and bisecting the line. It would be way more then two locations, but it would cut down tremendously on the number of systems you had to check as it would be way less then all points in the galaxy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Three points should give you all you need though to reduce that to two possible points. And if you had twelve points, it should be easy to narrow it down to one location. A trained navigator or pilot should be able to do it almost without a computer.

[geoschmo]

Imperator Fyron said:
but the plot doesn't call for simplicity.

While I disagree with your literal interpretation on the other stuff, this is one thing we can definetly agree on. If this were real and not a tv drama, the observatory on Kobol wouldn't be a starfield as seen from earth with vague referances to the other twelve colonies and little or no frame of referance to plot a course. It would be a simple map like you find in every shopping mall. "You are here. Go this way to Earth." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Fyron]

We can only go on what they say and do. We could extrapolate all sorts of hidden meanings and metaphors, but then we would be little more than English majors (in the literary sense, not language per se) needlessly ruining a work by dissecting it into tiny little pieces, thus missing the whole point, and get nowhere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

They were talking about using the map as a (not so) simple mall guide map, though. They did not speak of metaphorical representations of the colonies, but of looking for that pattern in the "sky." Whether or not that makes any sense or will get them anywhere in the long run, that is what they were doing. What we think about this doesn't really change the fact that it happened. Maybe they will use them metaphorically in future episodes, but they have not said anything about finding the meaning of the symbols yet.

[geoschmo]

But you are missing the point Fyron, that is the entire point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

They do not say the constellations mark the positions of the colonies in any quote the you have provided. They do not say the colonies are in the constellations. They do not say any of the stars in the contellations are the stars which the colonies orbit. You may be right that they do state these things in some scene that I can't remember and that you have not quoted, and if that's the case I will reevaluate my position. But with the quotes that you have provided, and in the scenes that I can recall myself, I am the one going by what they actually say, not you. You are the one adding your interpretation to their actual statements.

Sorry if I'm coming off as pedantic here, but hey it's been a while since we've wasted a bunch of time on a pointless disagreement. I appreciate any opportunity to tell you when you are wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Fyron]

I think we have been talking about totally different things here... I do see that I made an erroneous assertion about the planets being in the constellations several hours ago, but I wasn't even thinking of that in the last few posts. I was only talking about using the constellations as a means to determine a fixed viewing point based on observing the "sky," responding to posts in a similar vein.

[geoschmo]

Imperator Fyron said:
I was only talking about using the constellations as a means to determine a fixed viewing point based on observing the "sky," responding to posts in a similar vein.

well, that's what I've been saying all along. I guess we agree then. Glad that settled. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Azselendor]

The funny part is that the constellations are not viewable all at the same time, thus they couldn't be on earth. But this implies something significant.

At some point, people on earth would have journeyed back to Kobol or prior to the Exodus, Earth was already visited. This is perhaps one of the few ways that a map to earth would exist on kobol as depicted. It may also imply that the settlers to earth didn't know where the 12 colonies settled, but hoped the 12 colonies would know where kobol was as well.

Downloaded was supposed to have a scene dealing with next stop in the journey, looks like it got cut.

[Azselendor]

I made a minor mistake, What I ment to say is that at no time are all the constellations all viewable at the same time at any point on earth. Thus the map is not accurate on distances or locations.

Don't think of the map in terms of a map, but a puzzle game. In order to proceed to eachs tage of the puzzle, you must solve the prior. The Map on Kobol depicts the 12 constellations humans drew to represent the 12 colonies. This, however, contains as many landmarks and locations that the Colonials might recognize and thus be able to plot a course to earth based upon comparing relative distances between known objects depicted in the Map on Kobol to their down starcharts.

[Suicide Junkie]

Q) What does visibility (to the naked eye) have to do with anything?

First of all, we are talking interstellar spaceage tech here.
Making a map of the sky has already been done now. 3D maps, no less.

[Azselendor]

Actually it means a lot as the map on kobol does not represent the true star locations thus cannot be used accurately for stellar navigation and the measurement of distances.

However, what makes the map useful is 2 things

1.) Known landmarks such as the lagoon nebulae.
2.) Stellar Constellations can be used to verify if the planet is earth or not.

The problem is galactica doesn't know about #2.

[Azselendor]

Another quick observation I found in the wikipedia that I'll summerize a bit,

M-8 (Lagoon Nebulae) isn't located in Scorpio but Sagittarius. While RDM has acknowledged this mistake, it may indicate kobol's relationship to earth in space.

Also, the position of the nebulae is important, it may indicate that earth is somewhere along the path to the Lagoon Nebulae. If so, Kobol & Galactica could very well be located in the Cygnus Arm of this galaxy if you draw a line from the Lagoon Nebulae to earth and extend it in that direction.

[Randallw]

correct me if I'm wrong, but don't constellations change as time goes by. I may be going off in the wrong direction but it would be harder for them to find the exact position of earth if the stars have moved.

[Suicide Junkie]

Map making is a simple matter of using a telescope, taking pictures and writing things down.

Add in long term observation to take note of velocities, and you can plot the map long into the future.

[Hunpecked]

Randallw: "... don't constellations change as time goes by."

Depends on the constellation and the time period. As seen from Earth, in 50,000 years Cassiopeia will change significantly, Orion hardly at all.

http://www.astro.ubc.ca/~scharein/applets/#ProperMotion

As I recall from the series, the Twelve Tribes supposedly left Kobol about 2,000 (Earth?) years ago. Assuming the Thirteenth Tribe left at the same time, it would have to reach Earth and send back a sky map before Kobol fell into ruins, i.e. no more than 2,000 years ago. So the constellations should still be recognizable from the vicinity of Sol. If the Thirteenth Tribe left before the others, then all bets are off.

On the other hand, real-world paleontological evidence and the Colonial racial mix make it pretty clear that humanity originated on Earth. That means that humans voyaged from Earth to Kobol (bringing their sky map) some unknown time before the migration of the Twelve Tribes, and we have no way of knowing if Earth's constellations are still recognizable. BTW, Earth-to-Kobol migration is consistent with the Colonials' discoveries on Kobol: apparently there are no sky maps from any of the Twelve Colonies, meaning that Kobol's inhabitants considered Earth more important for some reason.

[Azselendor]

True stars do move, but we are talking about stellar drift of only 3000-4000 years (date of the scrolls of pythia). Something that the Galactica would be equipped to do. We know the galactica has to generate new star fixes every time she jumps, so I would assume they are trying to use those star fixes to figure out where earth is.

Humpecked brings up the valid point that humans originated on earth. Perhaps we need to stop looking at the new BSG as something running in our past/present like the original series and something that might be running in out future.

At some point, Earth was abandoned for Kobol, we repeated our crap on earth, and moved on to the 12 colonies while a group went back to earth. You never know.

[Black_Knyght]

I just caught up with my TiVo, and after watching the one of the most recent episodes a stunning thing hit me concerning the show.

Now I'd always just assumed that the "Number 6" in Baltar's mind was either a Cylon mindfrak or some type of implant they had in him intended to moniter him and the escaping humans. Then his original "Number 6", after getting <font color="red"> BLASTED </font> on Caprica, gets reborn and a couple of NEW mysteries pop up -

1) she and the one in his head aren't the same, or even inter-connected.

2) she has a little Baltar of her own frakking around with her sanity.

3) neither "persona spiritus" acts like their REAL conterpart, and each seems to have their own agendas.

Anybody else think that maybe this isn't a Cylon thing, but that someone, something, else is doing this ??? Some as yet unknown third party, perhaps ???

Just an interesting thought, IMHO....

[Atrocities]

I am sure it will be explained as at some point as a mutual download curruption link that some how mixed both of them together. That or Baltar is a cyclon.... who really knows at this point. Good show, it keeps you guessing and wanting more.

I just hope that they don't blow up or sacrifice the BEAST. That is one cool ship.

[geoschmo]

Baltar could just be crazy. He suggested as much when his "Mind 6" showed up originally. The more we see the more I suspect it's true.

[TurinTurambar]

So this elaborate story is all in his mind? And solely written to explain his eventual governance of the Cylons? I think not.

[geoschmo]

Who said Baltar will end up governing the Cylons? Was that in the spoilers somewhere?

[Hunpecked]

Black_Knyght: "Anybody else think that maybe this isn't a Cylon thing, but that someone, something, else is doing this ??? Some as yet unknown third party, perhaps ???"

Of course: the show's writers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Spoilers]

Seriously, though, the writers can pretty much make up whatever they want. A Cylon, for example, is supposedly anatomically indistinguishable from a human, yet he can transmit his entire "mind" elsewhere at the instant of death. Sharon/Eight can interface with human computers by sticking a probe up her forearm, but an X-ray apparently wouldn't reveal any connectors. The fact that Baltar has no detectable "chip" in his skull means nothing; Six might have extruded some of her artificial neurons into his brain (e.g. along the optic nerve) and "wired" him that way.

As for Caprica Six, her "Baltar" may be a psychological artifact resulting from a conflict between her programming and her experience. Creating a "mind" more or less as intricate as a human's is an incredibly complicated process; the Cylons may have failed miserably to forsee the consequences of direct interaction with humans. The only remedy may be Ctrl-Alt-Delete.

Incidentally, with Caprica Six and Eight going rogue and maybe contagious, the writers seem to be setting up a basis for peace between the Cylons and humans, and one possible ending for the current series.

Six of Twelve? Eight of Twelve? Why do I get the feeling that Jeri Ryan may guest star on a future Galactica episode? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Daynarr]

Speaking of guest stars, what number was Lucy Lawless character in that episode where she played journalist interviewing Galactica crew?

[Hunpecked]

Number 3. As far as I'm concerned, the Cylons could have stopped right there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Atrocities]

I think its all just an illusion, a made up adventure designed to captivate audiances around the world with a story of human stuggle against impossible odds.

[Suicide Junkie]

Indeed.

At the end, we will discover that everybody is still hooked up to the matrix, and the Cylons just let the humans think that they had escaped, so that they don't really try to escape.

[Will]

geoschmo said:
Who said Baltar will end up governing the Cylons? Was that in the spoilers somewhere?


From the original series, I believe. I don't remember if he got full control, but he did boss around quite a few chrome-domes.

[Randallw]

As far as I know in the original series he was originally executed after the Cylons had no further use for him, however they changed that soon after and he became a sort of advisor for the Imperious leader who was hunting the Galactica. That Imperious leader was destroyed, if I remember correctly its base star was ambushed on the surface of a planet, and he became the leader of the cylons hunting Galactica, with the help of Lucifer, a Cylon assistant.

[geoschmo]

Well, aside from the fact that it wasn't clear whether they were actually following Baltar or simply manipulating him to find the humans, just because it happened in the original series doesn't mean it will in the new series.

That being said, it's certainly possible that the Cylons in the new series could try something similer. And Baltar is so screwed up he might actually fall for it. But that still doesn't mean he isn't crazy and his mind 6 isn't some psychotic break.

Remeber how his Mind 6 reacted to the 6 they found on board Pegasus. It was almost jealous of Baltar making any sort of connection.

[Azselendor]

Ron Moore has stated he'll no longer be mining the original two series for storylines and plot elements. No War of the Gods with Count Veryevil Von Iblis, Cylon Spagetti Westerns, and Dental Chair Motorcycle Design from Doctor Zee.

With that laid out, time for spoilers....













Caprica Six's Baltar is definately a facet of her own mind. Her feeling of remorse about the destruction of humanity has taken form in the only human she loved - Baltar. Unlike the Six in Baltar's head, Caprica Six's Baltar hasn't revealed anything Six doesn't already know.

Six in Baltar's head, on the other, has revealed precise information about the Cylon's, Cylon religion, and so forth. On the other hand, Baltar could be really that brilliant and be making logical conclusions that play out in the Six delusion.




But I feel the more important question for BSG right now is how long until Pegasus looses this commander. They've already chewed through 3.

Also, we know that Gina's nuke will be used soemtime next episode or shortly after the start of season 3 against the Colonials, but RDM has stated Pegasus won't be destroyed any time soon repeatedly.

[Ragnarok]

KlvinoHRGA said:

But I feel the more important question for BSG right now is how long until Pegasus looses this commander. They've already chewed through 3.



It's obvious they won't lose this one. I mean it's Adama's son! I am sure he will have several near death experiences while being the commander of the Beast, but he has faced so many of those already it is just part of his life.

[Suicide Junkie]

KlvinoHRGA said:
Pegasus won't be destroyed any time soon repeatedly.

Good. Those "time-loop" episodes are pretty cheezy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Azselendor]

You'll notice those flashbacks in episodes aren't really flash backs. they're time loops. See, Doctor Zee is soo pissed at being fired and his dental chair being reposessed, he's creating time loops in the new series.

But for safe measure, I'd recommend spacing all dentistry equipment in the mean time - lest Doctor Zee gets his hands on one and builds another flying motorcycle.

[Ragnarok]

Rumor has it that there will be no new episodes until October. I guess it is because NBC may be picking up the series. I for one hope this is not true. I have a feeling if it moves to NBC that they will destroy the show much the way FOX destroyed Firefly.

[Renegade 13]

I think NBC's been in there from the start. After all, don't they own the American Sci-Fi Channel?

[Ragnarok]

Renegade 13 said:
I think NBC's been in there from the start. After all, don't they own the American Sci-Fi Channel?



I think you are correct. I don't necessarily mind NBC being involved per se, it's just that I wouldn't want to see them switch the show over to that particular network. Shows seem to go downhill after making such moves. But who knows? Maybe BSG will thrive on a big-time network such as NBC. Time will tell.

[ZeroAdunn]

You guys didn't hear? BSG has been cancelled, they decided too many of the characters are just out of touch with the youth of today. The new series? BSP (Battlestar Pegasus.) They are basicly going to retool the show, keeping some of the younger cast and have it be like "Friends" but on a starship......

I kid you not.

[Ragnarok]

ZeroAdunn said:
You guys didn't hear? BSG has been cancelled, they decided too many of the characters are just out of touch with the youth of today. The new series? BSP (Battlestar Pegasus.) They are basicly going to retool the show, keeping some of the younger cast and have it be like "Friends" but on a starship......

I kid you not.



I think I may have to find a really really big hammer if you say that again... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Daynarr]

Ragnarok said:
I think I may have to find a really really big hammer if you say that again... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



I'd use a spoon instead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[mrscrogg]

Shades of Bobby Ewing ! We are experiencing a dream secuence !

[geoschmo]

mrscrogg said:
Shades of Bobby Ewing ! We are experiencing a dream secuence !

You think that's what this is? It's kind of cheesy if that's the case. Sucks we won't find out till July.

[mrscrogg]

To jump a year in time ? Too much could happen during then - to many new adventures available to give a year up .Baltar falls asleep and a year passes ? - to gimmicky not to be a dream

[geoschmo]

And what's up with Adama's porn-stache? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Thermodyne]

IMHO, it’s a dream ending. If you were looking closely when the nuke went off, it took out a big portion of the fleet. Which based on the head count could make their survival a moot point. And I can’t see them letting their guard down that way. They would have posted pickets all along the frontier to warn of approaching Cylons.

OR….it could be a money thing. If money is tight, they could spend next year filming a gorilla campaign in the woods of west Canada and cut back on the rendered space scenes. They wouldn’t be the first tv show to do something like that.

[mrscrogg]

He's always had one - he can grow it in 3 days !

[Hunpecked]

Thermodyne: "If you were looking closely when the nuke went off, it took out a big portion of the fleet. Which based on the head count could make their survival a moot point."

Well, they gave the population of "New Caprica City" as about 39K. Allowing for skeleton crews on the orbiting ships, the nuke could have taken out nearly 20% of the fleet.

Thermodyne: "And I can’t see them letting their guard down that way. They would have posted pickets all along the frontier to warn of approaching Cylons."

Uh, we ARE talking about the Colonial military here. You know, the people who gave Baltar a functional NUCLEAR WARHEAD when all he needed was the plutonium, and then didn't even put a 24-hour guard on the NUCLEAR WARHEAD, even with at least one known Cylon on the loose, and didn't check on him from time to time to make sure he still had the NUCLEAR WARHEAD. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Strangely, though, the ships in orbit did seem to have their FTL drives spun up and at least one jump pre-plotted; they got out pretty fast when the Cylons showed up. With the dumbest humans marooned on New Caprica, the fleet is probably more likely to reach Earth now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif My guess, though, is that the series will focus on the New Caprica concentration camp, run by the now-benevolent Cylons, as a kind of "Hogan's Heroes" type show. Starbuck will play Hogan, and the Quisling Baltar will be the unfortunate and ineffectual Klink, running the camp for the Cylons. I suspect some poor Centurion will play Schultz, occasionally declaring in a robotic monotone, "I see nothing!"

[Thermodyne]

So if we take the 39K number, what would the effects of surviving a nuclear war and several close proximity fission detonations have on them? That’s a lot of stray neutrons ripping through their DNA. Between the birth defects and the die off from long term radiation illnesses, would the society survive?


As for Baltar, how long would he be in office if he crippled the fleet? The story line would indicate that it would not be long. Not with the Cylons a jump away at any given moment.

I hope this is just a tease for next season and not a cost cutting measure. I for one do not care to watch this current bunch of bozo’s fight a terrorist campaign against the Cylons. And if it is a cost issue, then I guess most of the Cylons we see will just be humans posing as Cylons. Budget cutting has been the death of many a scifi series.

[Azselendor]

Typically scifi shows requiring location shots cost nearly twice as much as bottle episodes. Humanity is in a sorry state with a year of Baltar in the helm. plus it should be noted we have been jumping around on the timeline. At "Flight of the Pheonix" we stood at 3 months since the miniseries, Cain in Pegasus said it had been six months since the miniseries. Baltar's election took place roughly nine months since miniseries.

A full year skip, while killing a lot of storylines, does sadly make sense. The idea is to show that humanity has fallen back off it's guard again thinking the cylon threat had passed.

However, I still think this BSG was a waste of 90 minutes. Seeing the Orii ships in action in SG1 was a far more exiciting episode. (did you know if you stand one on end, it looks like a giant tooth?)

But lingering questions from Galactica

- The Brother Carville Duo's fate. I suspect rock-paper-scissors gets old after 380 days.
- Helo's Sharon's fate. I suspect she's in the brig given that Helo is replacing gaeta and that Adama will reveal her baby's fate to enlist her help.
- Tom Zarek and his motely crew of felons, rapist, and terrorist's fate. Richard Hatch is too money-grubbbing to loose galactica... AGAIN.
- Cylon/Human Baby now that the cylons are everywhere.

Did anyone else find it amusing the two cylon priest models were both really athiests?

[Azselendor]

Almost forgot, Now that Adama has is moustache back, does anyone think he'll get the Wonderful Icecream Suit back so he can go drink red wine, eat a greesy burrito, and hit on the bar owner's wife again?

[Atrocities]

Ragnarok said:
Rumor has it that there will be no new episodes until October. I guess it is because NBC may be picking up the series. I for one hope this is not true. I have a feeling if it moves to NBC that they will destroy the show much the way FOX destroyed Firefly.



New episodes start in JULY on the sci-fi network.

[Daynarr]

Hmm, they are taking a break, I guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Love that series.


Btw. how many seasons does stargate have so far?

[Atrocities]

I believe Stargate is up to 9 seasons going on its 10th this summer.

I was rather put out by the way they rushed through the BSG final episode events. IT seemed like there was a lot more to see over the course of the last three episodes that we did not get to see. Time was rushed, and a lot of the story was lost with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Baltar Bad.

[Caduceus]

If you watched the teaser - voiced over by Six - it stated that new episodes of BSG will be in October. Atlantis and SG-1 will return in July.

[Azselendor]

Confirmed from scifi's network drones, BSG's 3rd season will be delayed for an october 2006 launch.

RDM has been under pressure to wrap up storylines this season plus the last half of the season since Ressurection Ship pt2 has been suffering in the ratings because of it.

I actually think holding the series to october is a good idea, they resume filming in a couple of months and I assume RDM wants the characters to age a bit instead of just cosmetically adding more hair to everyone.

[Atrocities]

Missed that.

[Atrocities]

If the show is sufforing in the ratings its because of some of the very things I mentioned in the other BSG threads. Oh well, I still the show even if it does seem to have somewhat lost its self.

I think they are sufforing from "What do we do now?" Syndrom.

[Caduceus]

One of the blogs from the creator/writers was that they went to a full season of shows. I.e. from 13 episodes in season 1 to 20 (or whatever the number is) in season 2.

He was stating that he felt the quality of writing went down due to the increased volume of shows that needed to be completed.

I haven't looked back at the BSG discussions on the forum because I typically have been watching the shows a week or two late because of my schedule and didn't want to read a spoiler.

That said, I did enjoy this season a great deal. They continue to write themselves into corners and then find a way out. Of course, every guest star is now a Cylon, until proven otherwise.

I also thought at the end of the next-to-last episode that we were going to end up with Starbuck stranded on Caprica *again* and was waiting for Sharon to put a couple of slugs in Adama. I think I would have preferred that to the handlebar mustache.

About the last thirty minutes being a dream - I don't think that the writers would do that. The only dreams we have had have been mixed flashbacks (Roslind) and obvious fabrications (the Chief's suicidal dreams). Dreams have been surreal and short. There is often music transitioning them to "let you know" that they're headed out of reality.

I think that the flash forward to one year of occupation on New Caprica is real. I think humanity will have to pick up the pieces again. Though I am a bit sorry that they didn't talk about going back to Old Caprica as a campaign item. My feeling is that that sort of information could have saved Roslind's presidency, even if she decided after consideration to not act on it.

As far as Baltar's presidential aides - Mr. Gaeta (who has always had a respect for Baltar's acumen)... and the blond and brunette ("Don't you ever knock?" - gotta love Gaius).

[Atrocities]

What kinda robbed the viewer of a sense of wonderment was when Roslen (sp) told Adama about the Tall Blond women like the one that accused Baltar of being a trator then dissappeared. To many fans that episode, the one where Baltar was accused by a 6 of being a traitor was really dream episode. The one in his head was teaching him a lesson, and now we all know that it was not a dream episode, that in fact it was real and that really damaged the show. It took away from the series in so many ways that it cannot be described in print. It was a bad call, that I am sure they will in some way fix later on.

The show goes on to be interesting. They did a lot to set up the political nature and under ground of the fleet only to throw all that away now. There has to be a greater plan in place or else we were just taken down one path, and then bam, sent in the oposite direction. I do not like shows that do that without a clear course.

When season one ended, it ended with a brillant cliff hanger. The first part of Season 2 was outstanding. The second half was not so good.

But I have faith in the RDM, and look forward to what he and his writing staff come up with for season three.

[geoschmo]

When Pegasus showed up and had "Gina" 6 locked up as a Cylon, the Galactica crew all recognized her as a suspected cylon model. That pretty much confirmed that the previous episode with the Shelly Godfrey 6 model accusing Baltar wasn't a dream. There really wasn't any indication that it was a dream episode though. I'm not sure why people ever thought it was.

The only real question was whether the Mind 6 was somehow communicating with the Cylons and was working with the Shelly 6 unit somehow in a coordinated effort to teach Baltar a lesson. Personally I think Mind 6 is and always was a construct of Baltars twisted psyche. Shelly 6 was simply another 6 unit that was attempting to sow discord among the fleet by exposing/discrediting Baltar. Shelly 6 would have probably known about the other 6 models mission before the attack and that Baltar was the dupe that allowed the colonial defenses to fall. But she wouldn't have known about the Mind 6 that's been torturing Baltar ever since. He just subconciously has her using dialoge that makes it appear she is involved in real events, when actually she's just reacting to them along with Baltar.

[Azselendor]

I don't think RDM is stupid enough to do a dream-reset episode. The whole point of BSG was to get away from the reset-button sci-fi mentality and get back to dramatic, allegory based stories.

Also, in a prior episode before pegasus, a picture of Shelly appeared as a suspect cylon with the other known cylons on a desk.

Also, about Shelly's disappearance, I'm surprised to see everything but the most logical reason for her disapperance. I've seen debates on trekbbs and gateworld where people say she vaporized herself, beamed herself off, was really a hologram, etc. But the most logical reason is that she knocked out the gaurds (most likely with an aerosol) following her and slipped off the ship before they woke up and the two guards following her lied about it and said she disappeared into thin air which would be accepted as humanity doesn't know the full extent of cylon technology.

[geoschmo]

The human cylon models have demonstrated super strength and super endurance. It's not a huge stretch to think they can run much faster then a human. The guards are following her a few steps behind and she turns a corner and steps on the gas. By the time they round the corner she down the hall and around the next corner. Maybe only a few dozen feet the way the passages on Galatica twist and turn. Once she loses the guards it's only a matter of blending in with the crowd, or hiding in the vent shafts until the coast is clear and she can sneak onto a transport. From the guards point of view she dissapeared into thin air, but only because they thought they were following someone who could only walk/run at a normal human pace.

[Daynarr]

Or maybe she just dissapeared into thin air ...

[Hunpecked]

Thermodyne: "So if we take the 39K number, what would the effects of surviving a nuclear war and several close proximity fission detonations have on them?"

From the mini-series I got the impression that most of the survivors were already off-planet during the initial Cylon attack. The ones Boomer picked up from Caprica were at some distance from the nearest blast and apparently made it off before the fallout started dropping. As I recall, Galactica herself took a nuke (near miss?) at some point in the series, but since the electronics came through OK, the ship must be well-shielded from radiation.

As for Baltar's nuke, the FX guys produced a pretty good simulation of an atmospheric blast engulfing nearby ships, but that's probably not what would happen in RL. Extrapolating from what I've read, I think the warhead would probably vaporize part of the Cloud 9 ship. Within this "atmosphere" the nuke would probably produce the usual radiative and blast effects, but the fireball would be no bigger than the ship and would dissipate rapidly at greater distances. I suspect the nearby ships would experience more damage from fragments and radiation than from blast. No doubt the fleet's civilian ships carry shielding adequate to protect against solar flares; I have no idea if this would be enough to protect against a nuke at a distance of several miles. Anyone on the ground, of course, would probably see some nice auroras in the following days.

Actually, it occurred to me while writing this that the fleet might not maintain a cluster formation while orbiting New Caprica. Ships closer to the planet than the Cloud 9 ship would effectively be in a lower orbit and gradually pull ahead; ships farther out would fall behind. Ships separated laterally would actually be in crossing orbits. My guess is that the fleet would form line, orbiting the planet like a string of pearls. In that case, Baltar's gift to #6 might not take out more than one ship.

Thermodyne: "I hope this is just a tease for next season and not a cost cutting measure."

I suspect the writers were trying to deliver a real shock to the viewers: fast-forward a year and then leave our heroes in an apparently hopeless position (again). If so, it worked; I was screaming "Jump, you idiots! Jump!" at the TV as soon as the Cylons showed up again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I predict the fleet will stage a heroic (and hopefully plausible) rescue operation using Sharon's talents (again) and plucky Starbuck's military skills on the ground, before resuming the trek to Earth.

[Atrocities]

When Pegasus showed up and had "Gina" 6 locked up as a Cylon, the Galactica crew all recognized her as a suspected cylon model.



I just watched that episode again and the ONLY person from Galatica's crew to "recognize" her was Baltar. None of the Galatica crew ever saw her aside from Baltar.


There really wasn't any indication that it was a dream episode though. I'm not sure why people ever thought it was



People rightfuly suspected that this was a dream episode, or in Baltars case, a psycotic (sp) break because the Six model in his HEAD, threatened him, then vanished from his thoughts at the exact time that he was accused by a then supposedly real 6 model of being a traitor. After he repented and gave himself over to "GOD", the supposed real 6 vanishes, the evidence against him is provem false, and the imaginary 6 returns.

It is widely, and again rightfully concluded, that the whole thing was a mind job. The six in his head was teaching him a lesson.

To now come out and say otherwise means that the Six in his head is something far more than an illusion and actually has physical abilities that can manifest themselves in the "real" world outside of Baltars delusions.

It was a mistake for them to erase the mystery of that episode by confirming that it was a real happenstance. Leaving the viewers to wonder about Baltars mental state was a far more effective method of developing his character than the avenue they just took in the final episode of season two.

[geoschmo]

Atrocities said:
I just watched that episode again and the ONLY person from Galatica's crew to "recognize" her was Baltar. None of the Galatica crew ever saw her aside from Baltar.


My memory on that wasn't precise. It wasn't in the episode when Gina arrived as I thought, but I am pretty sure I do remember the scene Klivino mentioned where they had 6's picture on the desk with the other cylon models.


Atrocities said:
To now come out and say otherwise means that the Six in his head is something far more than an illusion and actually has physical abilities that can manifest themselves in the "real" world outside of Baltars delusions.



I guess that's one way of looking at it, but I don't see it that way. Inner 6 could be simply taking advantage of a situation that she has no actual control over and making it appear to Baltar that she is manipulating things. Much the same way that people will have bad things happen to them and they start to think that God or fate or the world has it in for them. When actually it's just a random occurance, or the consequences of their own bad actions. Baltars psyche is simply more complicated then the normal negative paranoia. Insteaed of thinking to himself, "Why is this happeneing to me." he's got this hot blond only he can see saying, "This is happening to you as a punishment for you lack of faith." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Renegade 13]

I wouldn't mind having said hot blonde in my head. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif