Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up?

[Dizzy]

I've heard peeps complain that once big ships and big mounts are available, little ships are no more. What kinds of things can be done to make little ships competitive and worth while? I have a cpl ideas, but am no modder so I dont know if it's feasable.

Could smaller ship classes be given a vehiclesize ability that allows for lesser maintenance costs?

Perhaps mounts can be revised so as to not allow the big ships so much of a weapon hardware advantage?

Perhaps more of a natural ecm bonus.

Mb make a manuevering thrusters component only for smaller ships that add extra combat movement. Mb smaller ships can be equipped with more engines?

What other ideas are there?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

All those ideas are feasable, unless I'm highly mistaken. Look in the data files - Something like 'abilities.txt'. It's been a while since I've poked around them.

1) Yep, one of the abilities that can be used on ships is a maintanence reduction.

2) Certainly. All data files are text files; you'd just have to change some text files. Can't quite remember the name - 'somethingmounts.txt'.

3) Little ships already have this; you'd just have to increase it. 'vehiclesize.txt', I think.

4a) Yep. Just make it too large to use, then make a mount for the smaller ships by setting the minimum and maximum size of the ship the mount can be used with to the range of smaller ships you want to use it with.

4b) Yep. There's a default setting for number of engines that can be put on a hull.

You could also give them a to-hit bonus.

Hello, and welcome to the forum. Cheese?

[Atrocities]

You would have to mod them to be useful.

[Dizzy]

Hi atrocities. I LUV your shipsets and mods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Big fan here. I've DLed a bunch of your work... Very cool stuff. I've modded for SFC Orion Pirates and I know its TIME consuming... wtg.


narf poit chez BOOM said:You could also give them a to-hit bonus.

Hello, and welcome to the forum. Cheese?



Like what bonus? And thx for the info!

I'm slowly grasping the intricacies of modding this stuff. Rollo gave me some points tonight. Nice guy. Very knowledgeable.

I think I'll throw together some of these ideas and see where they lead. Anyone else have anymore ideas? Any suggestions would be very helpful.

[Atrocities]

Thank you. Glad you are enjoying the sets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


A lot of people have considered adding bonuses to smaller ships such as abilities added to the hull sizes like more manuverablity, built in ECM or armor values. Added movement ability. Added combat movement ability... assuming that it does not interfer with stock engine component.

Lower maintenance costs.. on the flip side make larger ships way more expensive.

Give smaller hulls the ability to hit offense, with the defense hit bonus... Less likely to be hit.

[Suicide Junkie]

I like the system I made for gritecon.

Using required mounts and maintenance modifiers on the hulls, the build cost is made to rise FASTER than the size of the hull. Maintenance is made to rise SLOWER, taking into account the higher cost of the components.

In Gritecon, build cost is equal to size cubed.
So an 800kt ship takes the same amount of time to build as eight 400kt ships.
However, that 800kt ship costs about the same as a single 400kt ship.

Big ships are thusly great to have around, but they're really hard to make.
Overall, you've gotta find a balance. If you are at peace, or winning with relatively few losses, then you build bigger ships so that you can increase your tonnage-in-the field without paying more maintenance. If you start losing, then you can build smaller ships, and get more tonnage per turn to throw into the meat grinder.

[Dizzy]

I think the following things could easily be done in a balanced fashion that would really make keeping around smaller class vessels something you'd really consider doing. Plus is all this stuff can be done relatively quickly and easily all in the VehicleSize.txt making it quick and painless and something the AI wont have trouble taking advantage of.


Atrocities said:Built in ECM. Ships harder to hit/easier to hit enemies.



Found these Abilities:

Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Combat To Hit Offense Plus


Added movement ability.



Found this Ability:

Extra Movement Generation (dont think I'd go here... Maybe allow use of more engines instead so it's an advantage that'd have to be paid for by structure.)


Added combat movement ability... assuming that it does not interfer with stock engine component.



Found this ability:

Combat Movement


Lower maintenance costs.



Found this ability:

Modified Maintenance Cost

Probably the last thing to do... to make it really balanced... would be to sift thru all the mounts in your mod and adjust them so that bigger ships dont get all these glorious percentage mount advantages over the littler hulls. I think that'd complete the package.

I also see what you're saying, Suicide Junkie, but I'd probably not want to go there. I surely wouldnt want to wait that long to get a bigger ship. I dont think there's enouigh payoff in it in the short term... or the long term for that matter. Especially if you do what I'm suggesting to the vehiclesize and mounts.

[Fyron]

Make sure to skim through SEIV Modding 101 (http://se4modding.spaceempires.net/). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Dizzy]

Ok, here's how I did it. Looks good on paper, but unsure if it all works.

Name := Escort
Short Name := Escort
Description :=
Code := ES
Primary Bitmap Name := Escort
Alternate Bitmap Name := Escort
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 150
Cost Minerals := 150
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 50%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 50% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 50
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 50%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Nimble size allows for excellent maneuverability. +2 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 2
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 8
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Corvette
Short Name := Corvette
Description :=
Code := CT
Primary Bitmap Name := Corvette
Alternate Bitmap Name := Frigate
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 200
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 40%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 40
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 40% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 40
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 40%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -40
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Nimble size allows for excellent maneuverability. +2 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 2
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 7
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Frigate
Short Name := Frigate
Description :=
Code := FG
Primary Bitmap Name := Frigate
Alternate Bitmap Name := Frigate
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 250
Cost Minerals := 250
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 30%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 30
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Smaller size makes ship 30% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 30
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 30%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -30
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Destroyer
Short Name := Destroyer
Description :=
Code := DS
Primary Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 300
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 25%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 25
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 25% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 25
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 25%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -25
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Heavy Destroyer
Short Name := Heavy Destroyer
Description :=
Code := DH
Primary Bitmap Name := DestroyerHeavy
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 350
Cost Minerals := 350
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 20%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 20
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 20% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 20
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 25%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -25
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Light Cruiser
Short Name := Light Cruiser
Description :=
Code := LC
Primary Bitmap Name := LightCruiser
Alternate Bitmap Name := LightCruiser
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 400
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 15%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 15
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 15% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Efficient ship design and small crew decrease maintenance costs by 20%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -20
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Cruiser
Short Name := Cruiser
Description :=
Code := CR
Primary Bitmap Name := Cruiser
Alternate Bitmap Name := Cruiser
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 500
Cost Minerals := 500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Number of Abilities := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 2
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 2
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 5
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

[Dizzy]

Imperator Fyron said:
Make sure to skim through SEIV Modding 101 (http://se4modding.spaceempires.net/). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Skimming, I miss something?

[Makinus]

Suicide Junkie said:
In Gritecon, build cost is equal to size cubed.
So an 800kt ship takes the same amount of time to build as eight 400kt ships.
However, that 800kt ship costs about the same as a single 400kt ship.




If i mod these alterations in the game, would the stock (or TDM) AI work ok? Or they would be at a severe disvantage from the player (assuming a medium bonus).

My skill level: I can beat AIs with low bonus 90% of the time (never make any teatries with anyone, but don´t select AIs x humans), at medium bonus i can beat the ais 50% of the time... and at high bonus i can beat the ais only 10% of the time. Normally i play with medium bonus.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Hmm...You might have too much bonus there.

Dunno. You can always test them in-game.

[Suicide Junkie]

The stock AI assumes that the biggest hull is always the best.
Making any of the changes suggested in this thread would falsify that assumption, and the AI would go down hard.

It would be entirely possible to change the AI files so that it will build a decent mix of smaller ships, however.

---

Combining the gritecon with the other things suggested would be much too far, indeed.
Gritecon's changes stand on their own to make a nice utility curve in which all sizes can be useful depending on the situation.

Long term, you can't support much of a fleet with small ships. Short term, you can't build much of a fleet with big ships.
The shorter the term you are considering, the smaller the ships you will build.

[Glyn]

How about a new race tech group that make small ships better?

Can wepon mounts be limited to only smaller ships? Or would you have to create a special ship clase for the race tech?

Other posable race tech groups: Fighters and/or Missile races.

[Dizzy]

Suicide Junkie said:
The stock AI assumes that the biggest hull is always the best.
Making any of the changes suggested in this thread would falsify that assumption, and the AI would go down hard.



I disagree. By the time AI start getting to the nifty weapons, ship contruction has just got up to around the CL stage at which point some nice designs will come out and hopefully live a while to make an impact. Casualties aside, the decreased maintenance costs will enable these ships to hang for a long time. The bonuses these ships have will enable them to be somewhat competitive later on and that's the point.

Bottom line is balance. Aside from QNP propulsion or gritCons idea, this is a step in the right direction that's more in line with staying stock.

Does the AI retrofit ships?


It would be entirely possible to change the AI files so that it will build a decent mix of smaller ships, however.



This should be the case already... I guess since no one has addressed the big ship little ship issue... we've left the AI set to bigger is better... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Quite simply, the AI by default will always build only the biggest.

If biggest is not best, then the human players will trounce them even more than they already do.

Now, as I also said, it is possible to mod the AI to build smaller ships too, but that's a serious bit of rolling up your sleeves and digging in with your favorite text editor.

[Dizzy]

What about the AI that seem to never get into bigger ships? At that point, they can stay competitive... I'm not penalizing AI by making larger ships suck, smaller ships are just not so out of date...

So, what are some tips for modding the AI to build a few of the smaller ships?

[Fyron]

You can easily limit the largest ship size a race will build in AI_Design_Creation.txt.

[Captain Kwok]

The main problem is that you can only really make about 4 or 5 ship types for the AI to use as combat ships. This makes it very difficult to have the AI build a variety of sizes through an entire game in addition to having it design ships with different roles (i.e. point defense, missile ship, etc).

[StarShadow]

How does the AI determine what the biggest ship available to it is? Tonnage or Tech level? I was thinking that instead of altering the smaller ships, it might be an idea to add in (extra) improved versions of those ships. For example, once you research cruisers, you also get 'advanced escorts'. The AI won't use them though, if it goes for highest tonnage.

[Captain Kwok]

It goes by the largest allowed size of the last valid entry for a given design type.

[Urendi Maleldil]

I might make a Small Ship Masters racial trait for the Masters Mod, and I was wondering what advantages might be good to add to advanced small ship hulls.

faster?
cheaper?
stealthy?
+defense?

[StarShadow]

I'd go with faster, extra defense and extra abilities.

Example:

Name := Escort
Short Name := Escort
Description :=
Code := ES
Primary Bitmap Name := Escort
Alternate Bitmap Name := Escort
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 150
Cost Minerals := 150
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 60% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 60
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Advanced hull design incorporates a phased energy matix.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 100
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Advanced targeting system increases chance of hitting enemies.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 25
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 4 Descr := Advanced hull design is resistant to damage.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 30
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Extra Movement Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Lightweight composites enable faster movement.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 7
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 3
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Unless I've misunderstood how to apply some/all of these abilities, this would result in an 'Advanced Escort' with a 60% defense bonus, 100 phased shields, 25% attack bonus, immune to weapons doing less than 30 damage, and a movement of 10 using (a max of) 3 engines (assuming ion engines).

Probably over-powered but just an example after all.

[Dizzy]

Hey Star Shadow, thats a great idea! Later on down the tech tree for ship contruction we could have advanced hulls come out. That's be very cool if we restrict like the Dreads and Juggernoughts. Have it Battleships and on down...

Then again... as suicide junkie said, the AI would build BB's and that'd mean human players would only reap the benefits of adv hulls... Hrmmm

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Make it a multi-player only mod and add stuff the AI can't do.

[Wenin]

I'm currently playing the Imperium Verus Mod, and it made Solar sails only work for 600Kt (Frigates in the mod) sized ships. You also can't have a Solar Sail with any other engine. The top of the line Solar Sail gives movement of 8, using only 1 supply unit per movement. The other ships use QNP engine system, though their speeds can get up and past 10 per turn they won't have the range.

So in this system the FGs are still nice ships late in the game.

[StarShadow]

Well...it would be nice if the AI could use the advanced small hulls, but even if it doesn't, the idea (of advanced small hulls) is still good. After all, the point is to make the small hulls competitive against larger hulls, not to make them better than large hulls.

[Dizzy]

I had another idea, Starshadow. Advanced hulls could essentially be worked to where ship contruction tech can go higher and higher. Advanced hulls could sport advanced mounts. Kinda like going from Star Trek's The Motion Picture era to The Next Generation if you get my meaning.

Like narf poit chez BOOM said, I'd make an excellent MP mod, since SJ says i'd be hard to get the AI to do it. I think pretty soon I'm gonna start looking at the AI files. I've figured out all the components and mounts and am working on the techareas. Easily moddable game so for. I like it! Love it!

[Atrocities]

Imperator Fyron said:
You can easily limit the largest ship size a race will build in AI_Design_Creation.txt.



How?

[Fyron]

All entries have two fields for min and max size of the design class.

[Atrocities]

If you want to make smaller ships more practicle, give them the ALWAYS HITS ability.

[Fyron]

That sounds like a really dangerous proposition...

[Captain Kwok]

An easy way to make small ships more effective is to employ a QNP scheme, modify the large mounts so they don't give such an overwhelming advantage in terms of damage/kT and lastly make some balanced offense/defense modifiers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Rollo]

Depending on how you'd set up a mod, it would not be much of a problem to make the AI design different size ships or better versions of early hulls.
I'd be easy to make 3 ships-of-the-line, say, one destroyer class, one cruise class and one battleship class and get a mix of these ships.

You can restrict the sizes of each class in AI_designcreation.txt and use different design type (Attack Ship, Kamikaze Attack ship, and Boarding Ship) for each size class. You can then control the build ratio of the these designs in the AI_Construction_Vehicles.txt.

For more then 3 ship classes, it gets a bit more complicated, but it's also do-able.

[Rollo]

One question I often ask myself, though, when discussing this topic. If bigger isn't better, why reserch higher levels of ship construction?

[Captain Kwok]

I think the idea here is that players want both types to be viable together for the duration of a game.

[StarShadow]

It's also somewhat more realistic to have fleets that aren't all composed of your largest hull, in my opinion at least.

I was thinking, most of a ships cost comes from it's components/weapons and only a small fraction from the hull. So a small mount that reduced weapon cost as well as size/damage/etc makes sense to me, so I came up with:

Long Name := Small Ship Mount
Short Name := Small Mount
Description := Smaller sized weapon mount which decreases weapon size by 2 times. Requires a vehicle size of 400kT or less. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.
Code := S
Cost Percent := 25
Tonnage Percent := 50
Tonnage Structure Percent := 50
Damage Percent := 75
Supply Percent := 50
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 150
Vehicle Size Maximum := 400
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5

I also revised the advanced small hulls a bit.

Name := Advanced Escort
Short Name := Adv. Escort
Description :=
Code := AES
Primary Bitmap Name := Escort
Alternate Bitmap Name := Escort
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 150
Cost Minerals := 150
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 6
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 60% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 60
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Advanced hull design incorporates a phased energy matix.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 100
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Advanced targeting system increases chance of hitting enemies by 50%
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 4 Descr := Advanced hull design is resistant to damage.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 30
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Extra Movement Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Lightweight composites enable faster movement.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 8
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Supply Storage
Ability 6 Descr := Energized hull functions as extra supply storage.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 2
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Advanced Frigate
Short Name := Adv. Frigate
Description :=
Code := AFG
Primary Bitmap Name := Frigate
Alternate Bitmap Name := Frigate
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 200
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Number of Abilities := 6
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 50% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Advanced hull design incorporates a phased energy matix.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 150
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Advanced targeting system increases chance of hitting enemies by 50%
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 4 Descr := Advanced hull design is resistant to damage.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 50
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Extra Movement Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Lightweight composites enable faster movement.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 8
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Supply Storage
Ability 6 Descr := Energized hull functions as extra supply storage.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 1500
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 2
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Advanced Destroyer
Short Name := Adv. Destroyer
Description :=
Code := ADS
Primary Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 300
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 7
Number of Abilities := 6
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 50% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Advanced hull design incorporates a phased energy matix.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 200
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Advanced targeting system increases chance of hitting enemies by 50%
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 4 Descr := Advanced hull design is resistant to damage.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 70
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Extra Movement Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Lightweight composites enable faster movement.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 6
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Supply Storage
Ability 6 Descr := Energized hull functions as extra supply storage.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 2000
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 3
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

I'm just not sure that they are well balanced though, I haven't had time to do much testing. I have the advanced escort appearing when the cruiser does. The advanced frigate is availible with the battle cruiser and the advanced detroyer with the battleship. They aren't really meant to be able to go 1-on-1 with their larger counterparts.

[Dizzy]

I like the idea of advanced smaller hulls, but can we get the AI to build them?

Mb if we had a generic template tutorial on just this specific thing, I;d tackle it.

[Rollo]

Dizzy said:
I like the idea of advanced smaller hulls, but can we get the AI to build them?

Mb if we had a generic template tutorial on just this specific thing, I;d tackle it.



yes, you can. See my earlier post. Decide on 3 shipsizes and limit the size for each class.

Well, if it was a generic tutorial it wouldn't be specific and vice versa, now would it? =)

[Dizzy]

Hrmmm... Rollo, 1st things 1st. My SEIV enjoyment is on hold till devnull updates out. I cant seem to find another mod thats to my liking. I gotta have it! I like all the ideas youve come up with. Only thing I think thats weak is the tech tree. Checked out Eclipse mod and the techareas are nuts. Far too many for me to chew on, but there are a few interesting branches that devnull could take advantage of to help the basic tech advancement seem less stock and 'been there done that'.

Among the divergent branches of techs that spread things out a bit and offer more depth, I especially liked the Mount tech areas that allow advancement of weapons thru mounts using research. VERY cool. Shouldnt be hard to adopt it w/o altering the AI. If the AI had the basic mounts already there, all the other stuff for the players would have to be researched. In order to use it they'd have to spend research for it. That way the AI wouldnt have to be told to research anything new. Just a thought. I guess its a fine line to ride. How close to stock do you want to stay yet offer something new and fun?



Ok, modding the AI. I think I could make this all happen if I knew how it works. Have to roll my sleeves up and get in there.

By default, if the AI only builds three types of ships (are we talking warships here or are these 3 ships supposed to do everything for the empire?) if I set one to be a specific class, will the other two by default choose the latest and greatest hull size?

[PvK]

Rollo said:
One question I often ask myself, though, when discussing this topic. If bigger isn't better, why reserch higher levels of ship construction?



Because bigger is better - for some things, but not for all things.

[Baron Munchausen]

PvK said:

Rollo said:
One question I often ask myself, though, when discussing this topic. If bigger isn't better, why reserch higher levels of ship construction?



Because bigger is better - for some things, but not for all things.



Yeah, that's the key. The SE IV ship design system doesn't take scale into account so 'bigger' turns out to be better in every way when it shouldn't be.

[IuchiZien]

Surely the balancing is in the technology costs. If I've spent X hundred thousand researching big hulls my opponent will have used the research to get better guns therefore fight is primitive big ship vs advanced small ships?

[Rollo]

exactly, noone is arguing why APB XII is better then APB V.

Now mind you, I am being a bit provocative here and in my earlier statement. Just like to point out that Ship Con is a tech like any else, and higher levels should bring distinctive advantages.
And while I do realize that the stock SE4 mount system does give a huge advantage to larger ships, I'd be careful to overbalance ship hulls.

In fact the DevnullMod Gold version that I am currently working on (1.80, unreleased at the date of this post) adresses this very thing of big ships and gave them all a defense minus. Battleship are now 20% easier to hit, Dreadnoughts 30%. In the future I may even tone down the stock mounts that DNM Gold still uses.

Within reason I think a better balance between ships is good, but I'd prefer just making the gaps smaller, instead of making LC just as viable as BB hulls.

Now, if a mod made all hulls available from start, that'd be a whole different issue.

[Fyron]

What would be a good system is where you start with several sizes of ships, each with strengths and weaknesses, and ship construction improves all of them. Newer ships should be better, but they do not have to be unilaterally bigger.

The problem with the APB comparison is that APBs have alternatives. You can research torpedos, MBs, PPBs, etc. But with ships, there is only a single tech area. It is entirely linear and boring by comparison.

[Dizzy]

Hrmmm. This is getting interesting...

I like the idea of basic hulls up front. FF, DD, CL, CA and BB hulls. Now as a control method to start with, I'd have the hulls themselves spaced far enough apart with cost so it'd be more expensive to build and maintain larger hulls at this point.

Now as you research ship contruction... Advanced hulls become available. You get built in bonuses to hit to defense and to movement as example. They are also cheaper to maintain, and may use mounts.

As ship contruction advances, these advanced hulls get better and better and may use better mounts.

Damn I like this idea!

[Dizzy]

Ok let me break this down a tad...

We want Ship Contructionn to be more interesting and move away from largest hull is always better. Using the below method, the AI, and players for that matter, will have much more control on what will appear at later design stages and not every player or race will end up fielding a DN in the final stages of ship contruction.

Let's start a mod called Dizzy's mod, as an example, and begin with some basic hull types.

Ship Contruction 1
- Escort
- Corvette
- Destroyer
- Cruiser
- Escort Carrier

Ship Contruction 2
- Frigate
- Heavy Destroyer
- Heavy Cruiser
- Light Carrier

Ship Contruction 3
- Light Cruiser
- Battle Cruiser
- Battleship
- Carrier
- Tech Area: Base Ships and Worldships
- Teach Area: Advanced Hulls
- Tech Area: Advanced Carriers

Ship Contruction 4
- Dreadnought
- Hvy Carrier

Ship Contruction 5
- Hvy Dreadnought
- Massive Carrier

Ship Contruction 6
- Juggernaught
- Tech Area: Advanced mounts



At ship contruction lvl 3, the AI will now have the opportunity to be programmed to continue with ship contruction tech toward Juggernought class and advanced mount tech or to branch off at this point into other tech area, Carriers, Base ships and worldships or Advanced hulls.

Let me touch off on the importance of the 3x new tech area branches:


Tech Area: Advanced hulls. New hull classes come out with built in features like bonuses to defense and offense, decreased maintenance and purchasing costs and other abilities. These new advanced hulls would have access to new advanced mounts as well, (adv mounts just increase the range, damage, accuracy and such of weapons a bit over standard mounts). Subsequent Ship Contruction techs will reveal new hull classes in addition to the Advanced types. (modders note idea: use 1 ton increments over standard hulls to create the new advanced hulls for AI and players)

Tech Area: Advanced Carriers
- New hulls of previous carriers, but with advanced features built in. Unique or improved carrier components, and the most important of all, Fighter Bay Mounts. Think of the Battlestar Galactica with its retractable hangar bays. A carrier mount would allow increased storage for fighters, just like Galactica styled hangar bays! This tech if chosen by the AI, then this race wont be like all the rest of the AI you're used to seeing all in the biggest baddest ship hull. A lot of variety possibility here...

Tech Area: Base ships and worldships
- Self explanatory. Players or AI branching off here would go straight from Battleship tech into researching the big boy ships.


At ship contruction lvl 6, Advanced Mounts become avaialbe. These will enable all regular class types to be fitted with advanced mounts, not just Advanced hulls. However, the advanced mounts arnt going to make up for the the advantages advanced hull types have over standard hulls.


As you can see, having these tech areas branch off like the do can setup the AI to research and build in a very unique way from how they usually go about it. The end result will be a much richer play enviornment, one that has more variety, depth and fun. Boring is one thing it wont any longer be.

Thanks for reading my idea. I know it was long, hopefully it was worth it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

You might want to thin those out a bit, or at least be very careful with your organization in the vehicletypes.txt

You can't obsolete hull sizes, so it is going to get cluttered very fast.

[Dizzy]

That's easily enouhg fixed.

You can use a space before a regular hull type name and a dash or asterik before an Advanced ship. That'd easily allow you to visually identify the hull types. Or something like that. But agreed, if its not done right, there'd be too long a list.

[Rollo]

I think what SJ means is that the list is going to get very cluttered when design a ship, since hulls cannot be obsoleted.
In your intial layout you already have at least 20 hulls, plus tech that will modify those hulls. Each level of advanced hulls will act as factor to the hull number. So depending on many levels you plan, you can easily come up with 60-100 hulls.
That's a long list to scroll though and find the right one.

Someone wiser then me has said something to this extent once:
When make a mod:
- Plan carefully.
- Start small.
- Keep your focus.

With this in mind, I'd cut down that list somethng like this:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Ship Contruction 1
- Corvette
- Light Cruiser
- Escort Carrier

Ship Contruction 2
- Frigate
- Cruiser
- Light Carrier

Ship Contruction 3
- Destroyer
- Battle Cruiser
- Carrier
- Tech Area: Base Ships and Worldships
- Tech Area: Advanced Hulls
- Tech Area: Advanced Carriers, - Hvy Carrier, - Massive Carrier


Ship Contruction 4
- Heavy Destroyer
- Battleship
- Dreadnought

Ship Contruction 5
- Hvy Dreadnought/Juggernaught
- Tech Area: Advanced mounts
</pre><hr />
Each level of early Ship Con will give you a small and a big hull and a carrier. After level 3 you can branch off. If you continue with Ship Con, you get a 3rd class of hull: Dreadnoughts (huge). I'd also possibly move the better carrier hulls to advanced carriers. And cut level 6 for Ship Con altogether (Hvy Dreadnought=Juggernaught).
There, still pretty big, but much more focussed.
Just my 2c, of course.

[Baron Munchausen]

The problem with all of these ideas is that they simply carry forward the long-standing conflation of ship size with ship role that has been in SE from the beginning.

Honestly, the actual components are what make it what it is. The size is simply a function of the size it needs to be and your ability to build ships of that size. Battleships of the 1st World War were 18-24000 tons. Battleships of the Second World War were 30,000 and up. Were the old battleships reclassified as cruisers because of this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So while I agree that the current tech tree of ship hulls is too rigid in SE I don't think the solution is the right one. I'd stop calling the hulls by any 'class' names at all and use the design names to differentiate the ships. Then ship construction can just let you build bigger ships and you design them as needed for their role. Proper economics of scale in the design system would result in the familiar 'capital ships' and 'escort' classes without any artificial categories needed.

[Suicide Junkie]

Yes!

No artificial categories, let the components speak for themselves!
Difficult to do, since you have to carefully balance everything and avoid the pitfalls of ubertechs.

However, not impossible, as the fighters in CBmod show...
As you research fighters, you get not only bigger ones, but smaller ones too. And special ones, like the ER fighter, or the stealth fighter.

[Dizzy]

Ummm Baron, nm...

Rollo, nice. I like it. Maybe add a few here or there, but its a good start.

I'm excited about the tech branch. Having the AI coded so it has to choose a path sounds cool. All the AI in the end wont be fielding all the same classes anymore. That'd be cool to see such different stuff at the later stages of the game.

[Fyron]

The purpose of multiple hulls available is so you don't use your big 2000 kT hull with only 400 kT used to make a small ship. This is especially important in any mod that has scaling of any sort (including, but not limited to, QNP). The problem with stock is that there is not any reason to build those small ships... The proposed type of setup absolutely requires a lot of rebalancing to make different hulls meaningful.

[Baron Munchausen]

Imperator Fyron said:
The purpose of multiple hulls available is so you don't use your big 2000 kT hull with only 400 kT used to make a small ship. This is especially important in any mod that has scaling of any sort (including, but not limited to, QNP). The problem with stock is that there is not any reason to build those small ships... The proposed type of setup absolutely requires a lot of rebalancing to make different hulls meaningful.



Which is to re-phrase what already said, that the current ship design system doesn't take scale into account. A larger ship ought to be proportionally more expensive to build and maintain because you need more materials or at least more elaborate engineering to make a larger structure work. A larger ship ought to require proportionally more engines, or at the very least the same proportion of engines, for the same performance. But in fact ships become more and more 'efficient' as they become larger in the SE IV system. Using less than the maximum tonnage for a given hull doesn't make your ships faster or more maneuverable either. Bizarre.

[Dizzy]

Baron Munchausen said: &lt;Snip&gt;
...the current ship design system doesn't take scale into account. A larger ship ought to be proportionally more expensive to build and maintain



Well, you cant make hulls too much more expensive cuz the AI wants to always build the biggest ships. So you can take advantage of that and build more numerous smaller hulls.

One way to make the gulf narrower between large and smaller hulls would be to nerf the weapon mounts. All the large and heavy and massive mounts would need the same scaling damage equal to the tonnage increase. That way they are no more powerful than smaller hulls.

There is a way to make the engine scaling issue a little better... Speed up the smaller ships somewhat and make the bigger ships a bit slower using the max engines in vehiclesize.txt.

I have an idea for mounts that'd be cool... Since the mounts would be equally scaled no matter the hull size, mounts would need some flavor. I suggest some basic types that give and take. For example, besides the standard scaled mount have 3 others; an Accuracy mount adds to hit but subtracts some damage %, also an Extended range and Overload mount to round it out.

The AI could use AI tags to identify with a particular mount so instead of setting up ALL the AI with standard scaled mounts, we could have some AI that use variety. I.E., the Cue Cappa would use the extended range mounts on all their weapons... cuz with their long eye stalks, they can see farther. Or something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Fyron]

Well, you cant make hulls too much more expensive cuz the AI wants to always build the biggest ships.

This can be worked around. You just need to make use of design types like Defense Ship and Attack Base. You can limit them to a smaller max tonnage to force the AI to build some smaller ships in the presence of large ships.


The AI could use AI tags to identify with a particular mount so instead of setting up ALL the AI with standard scaled mounts, we could have some AI that use variety.

AI tags can not be used for mount selection. If the mount is available and it can be used on the component, it will be used. Mount selection is ability-agnostic.

Instead, you have to add a bunch of AI-only mounts that are copies of the regular mounts, but are arranged so that they are last in file for particular ship sizes (or ranges of sizes).

[PvK]

My Proportions mod is not the only one that addresses all of this well, is it?

I'm quite happy with what I did, although I have a little more left to add (i.e. scale mounts for small ship control components would be good, and the larger mounts may want to be made a little stronger). QNP, scale mounts for some components, combat and maintenance mods based on size, armor adjustments. Does the job nicely. The Proportions 3.x AI is broken, but Proportions 2.x (or AIC mod) has almost as good handling of ship sizes, and the AI DOES build a mix of ship sizes - you just have to make AI designs by type and script it to build a mix of specific sizes. (Well, it's a pain, which is partly why Proportions 3.x AI is still broken, because I haven't bothered, but it is possible to do.)

PvK

[Fyron]

Nah, many other mods address these issues as well. P&amp;N, CB, Adamant, the Art of War mod that was never finished, etc.

[Dizzy]

Imperator Fyron said:
AI tags can not be used for mount selection. If the mount is available and it can be used on the component, it will be used. Mount selection is ability-agnostic.

Instead, you have to add a bunch of AI-only mounts that are copies of the regular mounts, but are arranged so that they are last in file for particular ship sizes (or ranges of sizes).



In my mount mod, I added all the standard mounts last so by default the AI uses these. However, it would be easy to mod it rather than use ability tags, my bad, you can require a tech area specific to that mount and that race. That'd set them up to use that mount. For instance, Pulse mount technology. Have a race research that and they'd use that mount instead of the default. All you need is a few of the races using various mounts and you have tons of weapons variety out there.

[Parasite]

In older times, it was true that bigger ships were better. Frigates could fight other frigates, but when a cruiser or lesser ship of the line came around, they had to run (and hopefully had the speed to do it.) Bigger ships meant first more, then bigger and longer range guns to hit others before you could be hit. Big battles were for ships of the line to fight, frigates were just used to pass messages.

Later improvements in weapons like the torpedo allowed a small ship to destroy large ships, but could not be used on other smaller very maneuverable ships. This lead to the rock, paper, scissors game where a small ship could kill a big ship, a medium sized cruiser could kill small ships but not really hurt bigger ones and a big ship with large slow guns could kill a medium ships easily, but had a hard time with the small darting destroyers. Later still came fighters and carriers, but that is another thread.

Small ships could be made much more useful with the introduction or modification of a small powerful short range weapon restricted to small hull types or even better with mounts to make them hit better on smaller ships. A reload rate of 10-15 turns and damage in the 2-4000 range might be good. A to-hit adjustment of -90% for a base ships and slowly reducing to zero on smaller ships. Using the opposite adjustment as it takes for fire on the ship has symmetries to it.

A torpedo shot at a cruiser whould be wasted if battleships were around, yet a ship's guns would clear the area around it of smaller enemies if given half a chance. I suspect this would be hard for the AI and firing priorities to build and handle correctly, but it might be interesting to try.

[PvK]

See Heavy Torpedoes and Anti-Matter Torpedoes in Proportions 3.x. With some research they can be quite powerful, but the mount is based on _warhead_ technology rather than ship size, so larger ships tend to use longer-ranged weapons with size-based mounts, but a small inexpensive ship can mount these weapons. Very similar to what you were suggesting, and again, I think it works well.

PvK

[Urendi Maleldil]

I've added a new Small Ship Masters racial trait to the next version of the Masters Mod. It should yield a race that can effectively negate the "bigger is better" strategy. Right now, ship construction is researched like it is in the stock game, but research in other areas gives additional small hull sizes with certain bonuses.

I'd like to add a few more though, and I was wondering if you guys had any suggestionson what I could add. Here's what the Small Ship Masters have so far:

Hulls:
Ship Con 2 + Propulsion 3 = Fast Escort (+50% defense, +4 combat movement)
Ship Con 3 + Industry 1 = Cheap Frigate (0 hull cost)
Ship Con 3 + Mil Sci 1 = Stabilized Frigate (+30% offense)
Ship Con 4 + Armor 1 = Hardened Destroyer (30 emissive)
Ship Con 4 + Mil Sci 1 = Stabilized Destroyer (+30% offense)
Ship Con 5 + Shields 1 = Shielded Light Cruiser (50 shields)
Ship Con 5 + Armor 1 = Hardened Light Cruiser (30 emissive)
Ship Con 6 + Resupply 1 = Endurance Cruiser (10000 supply storage)
Ship Con 6 + Shields 1 = Shielded Cruiser (100 shields)

Mounts (for 100-500kT ships):
Ship Con 7 + Mil Sci 1 = Stabilized Ship Mount (+30% offense)
Ship Con 5 + Sensors 1 = Miniaturized Electronics Mount (50% size, 150% cost increase, only for electronics)
Ship Con 6 + Shields 1 = Small Geometry Shield Mount (150% shield strength)

[Suicide Junkie]

Say what?
50 shields?!? Unless that's leaky shield points, its not worth the space in the hull selection screen.

I suggest that instead of making new hulls for that, you create a Shield mount, which would provde +10% to shield generation. Better effects, and dosen't use a hull.

[Ed Kolis]

Isn't Resupply 1 a starting tech?

[Urendi Maleldil]

Oh, why so it is. Resupply 2 will work.
... and increased shields to 75 and 125.

There already is the shield mount, farther down the list.

[Suicide Junkie]

How many shields does a typical ship have? If it is anything like stock, then 75 points is still insignificant... one, maybe two hits.

Perhaps you should consider making it 50 points of shield regen? That would be somewhat useful, pretty unique, and make the ship hard to capture as a bonus.

[Urendi Maleldil]

75 extra shields for a Light Cruiser is like having an extra shield generator onboard. 0kT, for free. The hull costs exactly the same as the regular Light Cruiser hull, and the shields don't use up any kT.

Plus you get it at Shields 1, where Shield Generator I only generates 50 shields. You can combine the shielded hull with Small Geometry Shield-mounted generators later on down the line and end up with a tough little ship.

This is just preliminary, and I'll have to test it to make sure it's a good enough shield bonus. If it's too weak, I can always make it stronger.

[Suicide Junkie]

Compare it to shields 5+, though.
Nobody is going to sit around with shields level 1, and you can't obsolete hulls.

[StarShadow]

Also, unless you make the built-in shields phased, any ship made with that hull will have problems. Did you take a look at the example hulls and small mount I posted? I realised that with small ships (and small mount weapons), weapon overloaders will just gut your ships. Haven't figured a way around that yet...

[JonMacLeod]

Wenin said:
I'm currently playing the Imperium Verus Mod, and it made Solar sails only work for 600Kt (Frigates in the mod) sized ships. You also can't have a Solar Sail with any other engine. The top of the line Solar Sail gives movement of 8, using only 1 supply unit per movement. The other ships use QNP engine system, though their speeds can get up and past 10 per turn they won't have the range.

So in this system the FGs are still nice ships late in the game.



The movement on the ships isn't quite Quasi-Newtonian. I call it Improved Quasi-Newtonian. Quasi-Newtonian propulsion is based on the idea that it takes a proportional increase in thrust to move a proportionally larger vessel (a little artistic license must be allowed as thrust would actually affect acceleration rather than speed directly, impossible given the hard-coding of the game). This premise with the stated license is correct. However, the thrust of proportional rockets only squares as mass cubes, (thrust is largely a function of the cross-sectional area of the rocket nozzle). Thus: proportional, but larger, ships would accelerate slower. I have simulated this by having larger ships require more movement points even relative to their size. The end result is that smaller ships are generally faster, but weaker pound for pound.

I hope that's helpful

[Suicide Junkie]

The "Quasi" part of QNP is the fact that it works as
F = MV
rather than
F = MA

It should also be noted that engine sizes are measured the same way that other components are.

In QNP the sizes are presumed to be masses, rather than volumes or some other unit of measure. Doubling the mass of your engine room means doubling the number of engines, and thusly producing twice the thrust. Twice the thrust means being able to move twice the amount of ship at the same rate.

Newton says: Twice the engines + twice the ship = same speed

Your system as described would indicate that component sizes are linear dimensions, and that would disconnect a ship's "size" from its mass.

As far as gameplay, your system does sound like a quite nifty (and creative) way to diversify the hulls used in a game.
Some people tend to think that everything good has been done already after 6 years. Congratulations for proving them wrong! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

...And someday, sometime in the future, there will be only one member of the forum who *hasn't* worked on a mod at some point...

...Said condition will last for a whole five seconds past their forum registration date.

[scJazz]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
...And someday, sometime in the future, there will be only one member of the forum who *hasn't* worked on a mod at some point...

...Said condition will last for a whole five seconds past their forum registration date.


/threads/images/Graemlins/PointUp.gif

OK I have not worked on a Mod yet. I've thought about it. Taken some rough notes on paper. However, I have not yet actually made a Mod or editted files. I've played for years and years and years... actually I don't think my 13 year old daughter was in school when I started playing.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Hey, I didn't say the that point is now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Hunpecked]

The fact that Space Empires models speed, not acceleration, suggests that the method of propulsion is entirely non-Newtonian, e.g. a slower-than-light version of the "stutterwarp":

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/stutterwarp.html

[PvK]

Suggests to me the game designer is non-Newtonian... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[scJazz]

Hunpecked said:
The fact that Space Empires models speed, not acceleration, suggests that the method of propulsion is entirely non-Newtonian, e.g. a slower-than-light version of the "stutterwarp":

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/stutterwarp.html



The thing that always struck me as odd is that there is no penalty to hit for speed of target and shooter. Only range is considered. Why?

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

That's because the movement ability only grants movement points, not defense. Also, ships move one side at a time and remain still for as long as another side's ships move. (Yes I know, but it's how the game works.) On their next turn, they might move in an entirely different direction, or in the same direction but less distance, so the "speed" of the previous turn imparts exactly nothing on the ship the next turn.

There are however at least several mods who adress this, by giving engines a defence bonus ability. Btw..... I always thought the highest-level defence bonus of a component in the same family worked on a ship? So the bonus won't stack, right?

[Phoenix-D]

No, they won't stack.