OT: Climbing System Requirements and Specs

[Atrocities]

It seems that as technology improves, games improve. What once only required very basic system specs and requirements now requires virtually a new computer with each new game.

Gone are the requirements for a store bought computer, replaced by the need for such high cost video cards and processors as Geforce 7900 SLI's and P5 4.4 ghz CPU's.

Remember the day when a game only needed:
Minimum:
Pentium II 300-600 MHz (depends on video card), 64 MB RAM, Windows 95b/98/2000/ME/NT(SP4), 12 MB video card, DirectX-compatible sound card, 4x CD-ROM drive and 531 hard-disk space.

And this was considered TOP of the line in 2000. I can remember when video cards were only 4 megs and cost $400.00. What a world we live in now when your forced with each new game to upgrade your system to meet the minimum requirments in order to play the game without problems.

I often wonder if I could build my own dual Geforce 7900 GTX SLI system for less than the quoted $3,000.00 prices of such PC builders as Alien, Dell, Gateway, and so on.

What CPU, what mother board, what HD, what memorie, what what what would I have to buy that would work well with a system using dual Geforce 7900 SLI video cards? Would I have to have a monster power supply, oh yes, and what about cooling? God only knows that heat kills a PC faster than 5 year old with an screw driver and an evil disposition.

[Will]

Well, an AMD system board with two PCIx16 slots can be had for 100$, the processor will cost you another 150$-400$, memory will be about 150$ if you go for 2GB, I didn't see any GeForce 7900, but the 7800s will cost you 450$ each. So, taking the lower end prices, you're already at 1300$ without power, case, monitors, hard disks, optical drives, cooling, input devices, sound card, speakers, operating system, etc. Since you got dual video cards, you're going to want dual monitors, so that will be 400$-600$ for LCD, and 200$-400$ for CRT. That bumps the total up to 1700$. Getting a nice sound card and speaker system will run you around 200$, so total is 1900$. The Alienware/Dell and Gateway systems would probably cheap out on HDDs, you're going to want a smaller but really fast drive for OS and swapfile, and a larger drive for programs, data storage, etc. So that will be around 300$, and we're up to 2200$. Case, 100$; Power supply, 100$ for a nice one: 2400$. Optical drives are pretty cheap now, can probably get two for 50$. Gaming keyboard and mouse combos vary, upper-range would be about 75$. Total 2525$. Fans and memory coolers, we'll say about 25$. Windows XP x64 Professional is probably around 200$ retail. So, final price, nice round number of 2750$. Plus tax. Plus shipping. Plus the time to actually assemble everything, install everything, etc...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

Dell approved me for 1500.00 ROFLMAO - at 29.99% Any one care to check the tempreture in hell for me?

[Saber Cherry]

It's bad that games are advancing in CPU requirements, since CPUs have barely changed in the last 3 years. With a couple of exceptions, games didn't really improve over that time, except graphically... but modern graphics aren't very CPU-dependant - or at least, they don't need to be. Nobody should have to upgrade their CPU to play a game like Doom 3 that is inferior to the ancient Halflife 1 in every way other than graphics (Doom 3 holds the record for "most shades of black in a game"). I can't figure out what the CPU even does in Doom 3 that it didn't do in Halflife (improved Quake 2-engine), since loading areas, loading graphics, and displaying graphics are all CPU-independant DMA or GPU operations. If anything, more hardware acceleration (for geometry and sound) should make it use less CPU time.

[Suicide Junkie]

Quite hot Atrocities.

You'd have to have multiple wives in order keep up with paing arms & legs at 30% interest.

[Renegade 13]

I have a quite satisfactory system that I bought in August for ~$1700 CDN. So about $1450 American. Since then I've sunk another ~$400 into it (upgraded video card, extra Gig RAM, new PSU). So put the total at $1800 American. Ouch. And this isn't a top of the line system, but it is a system that will handle whatever I throw at it...for the time being...then more upgrades :S

[Saber Cherry]

Atrocities, if you want a good, cheap computer, I suggest you go here:
www.newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com)
...and assemble it yourself. You could easily get a computer for far less than what Dell wants.

Here's a sample shopping cart (and BTW, I'm not suggesting anyone buy these brands! Samsung HDDs are good, AMD CPUs are good, Corsair is good, but the rest are just "average").

I assume you have an optical drive, monitor, speakers, case, operating system, and etc. that you don't really want to waste money on replacing.



Internal Hard Drives
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price

Update
SAMSUNG SpinPoint P Series SP2504C 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: SP2504C
Item #: N82E16822152025
Remove item from Cart Remove Save Save Move To Wish List
$89.99 -$5.00 Instant
$84.99
AMD-compatible Motherboards
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price

Update
ASUS A8N5X Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
Model #: A8N5X
Item #: N82E16813131569
** This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. what's this?
Remove item from Cart Remove Save Save Move To Wish List
$80.99 $80.99
Video Cards
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price

Update
SAPPHIRE 100154SR Radeon X1800XT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
Model #: 100154SR
Item #: N82E16814102008
Remove item from Cart Remove Save Save Move To Wish List
$308.00 $308.00
Power Supplies
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price

Update
Thermaltake Silent Purepower W0014RU ATX 480W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: W0014RU
Item #: N82E16817153007
Remove item from Cart Remove Save Save Move To Wish List
$59.00 $59.00
Memory - System
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price

Update
CORSAIR ValueSelect 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model VS1GBKIT400 - Retail
Model #: VS1GBKIT400
Item #: N82E16820145440
Remove item from Cart Remove Save Save Move To Wish List
$66.00 $66.00
Processors
Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price

Update
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Manchester 1GHz HT Socket 939 Dual Core Processor Model ADA4200BVBOX - Retail
Model #: ADA4200BVBOX
Item #: N82E16819103547
** This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. what's this?
Remove item from Cart Remove Save Save Move To Wish List
$355.00 $355.00
Subtotal: $953.98

[Randallw]

Well I've had the same system for 2-3 years. Upgraded it to play SWG, since then I have played COH, Doom3, and Star Wars battlefront 2. The other day I installed Dungeons and Dragons online (only extra was installing a DVD drive), sure it's not at full settings or high definition graphics but I was pleased to find it was pretty good performance.

[Phoenix-D]

I had the same system for..hmm, 4 years? Until I upgraded recently. It ran pretty much every game I wanted to play until Red Orchestra: Ostfront and Oblivion came out. (even FEAR was playable- on low settings, natch).

I spent $800 on a new system, and lo and behold I can run everything current at high. Except Oblivion, I haven't had a chance to test that yet.

[Fyron]

It's generally a bad idea to spend more than about that $800 on a (custom built) system (assuming you don't do something silly like waste $400 on a new monitor when you already have one from your old PC)... There is no real need to buy the latest and greatest CPUs and video cards when their performance gain over their half-priced breatheren is practically negligible. All of that more expensive will depreciate in value tremendously by the time the $800 machine starts to feel dated. But by that time, you will be able to get away with just updating a part or two to get the performance back up anyways.

[Atrocities]

According to most game reviewers and hard ware testers, the top of the line ATI and Nvidia cards are vastly superior in quality and performance over their half priced brethin. The SLI and the ATI version cards can run such games as F.E.A.R. and Half Life 2 without a problem on the highest quality settings available. While the mid range cost cards tend to have problems.

Having a dual SLI system with a top of the line CPU/HD/MEM only provides the gamer with a better gaming experience.

Lets face it, Microsoft wants to force people into upgrading to VISTA through their decision to not make DirectX 10 backwards compatable. Game developers are going to be forced to step up to DirectX 10. When Vista comes out, games designed using older versions of DirectX will be obsolete.

Games developed after Vista, to utilize DirectX 10, will be using more and more of the features and capabilities of the higher end video cards.

Right now the only reason I can see to upgrade to a new system is to enjoy the wonders of the newer high end games, in anticipation of what is too come.

I bought my GeForce 5700 Ultra only three years ago and already it is dramatically obsolete. Eveything is switching to PCI Express, that alone means I need to upgrade my computer as my MB is not PCI Express Compatable, much lime many of you.

My computer is only three years old. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Hell most of the games released in the last year are already maxing out my video cards capabilities, and that was something that I did not expect to see so soon. Hell my $450.00 GeForce 3 card was ficken leap frogged and is now vitually worthless. Might as well be an old Mytrix Mastique for all the good it does in gaming.

So ya, buing a new "high End" video card is something that I am very wary of, yet I know that eventually, especially after the release of VISTA, I will be forced into updating both my PC and my video cards to meet the new standards for the new games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

MS is evil.

[Saber Cherry]

Don't buy SLI or Crossfire, they're both rip-offs. Or rips-off. They only increase the framerate sometimes, in some games... in most games (meaning, not the 10 that every website use for benchmarks) they reduce the framerate. Even when there is an increase, it's almost never more than 20% at any resolution my monitor can handle... and for people who use LCDs for gaming (sometimes even by choice), you can't tell a difference in framrate above 50fps anyway (on a modern monitor - older ones are more like 30 fps). CRTs are a different story, but I've never seen one that can handle 16x12 at 100 Hz, so framerates ate those resolutions are immaterial to me. In short, I wouldn't spend my money on a dual setup, even if I had unlimited money - more noise, heat, and problems for no advantage.

nVidia does a better job for a dual setup, BTW, but I wish sites would stop reviewing that junk when 0.1% of gamers will ever buy it. Your money will always be better spent on a higher-tier card than a second card of the same tier, or if you are at the top, saved for the next generation, which will be faster than duals of the current generation. nVidia and ATI both need to spend their money on useful research, too, rather than this stupid ego-boosting game of "Who can win the NASCAR races with a car totally unlike anything consumers will buy".

[Ragnarok-X]

I bought my current computer in February 2003, which is more than 3 years ago. Back then i spend about 1200 €, about 1400 (?) US $. Up until now, i added 512 MB ram (now 1024), exchanged graphics once (GF 4800 TI -> GF 6600) and bought a second harddrive (120 > 120 + 160). Additionally, i bought a dvd-burning-capable drive.
So, to sum it up, i spent about 50 + 300 + 90 + 40, a total of 1400 + 480 $ to get a top system.

As of now, i can play every game, with decent solution (1024x768 / 1280*1024, both with 32 mb texture depth).

- Empire at War
- F.E.A.R.
- HL 2
- Need for Speed: Most Wanted
- AoE 3
- DoW

So, i basicly cant agree with Atrocities. I spend about 1850 $ in 3 years, and got myself countless hours of enjoying games, not mentioning being able to watch countless movies and tv series, and, to make it better, surf the internet and do certain work online.
For me, since im spending a LOT of time in front the computer, this is a good investment, and definitly worth the trouble.
One thing im missing is a proper soundcard. I think i will get an Audigy ZS 2 soon.


current setup:

CPU Typ AMD Athlon XP, 2075 MHz (12.5 x 166) 2600+
RAM 1024 MB (DDR SDRAM)
Graphics NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT (128 MB)
HD Maxtor 120 + Maxtor 160
Drive 3x virtual, 1x physical LG 8120
Sound, Modem built on Board
Running XP pro with SP 2.

[Fyron]

Atrocities said:
According to most game reviewers and hard ware testers, the top of the line ATI and Nvidia cards are vastly superior in quality and performance over their half priced brethin.

Those reviews are full of baloney. Artificial benchmarks are fairly useless. All that the current generation top of the line lets you do is run at best settings. Last generation's top of the line is generally going to be 90%+ of best settings, which is still practically the same. Go back two generations and you might lose the latest useless buzzword feature (like HDR), but the game will still look great and play extremely well.


One thing im missing is a proper soundcard. I think i will get an Audigy ZS 2 soon.

That's not a proper sound card, however. Sure, it can spit out a lot of mediocre quality sound, but it is pricey. Better to go with a card like a M-Audio Revolution (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Revolution71-main.html).

[Atrocities]

This is why I love coming here. You guys always know more than I and that usually results in me saving money. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I can upgrade the video card in this HP POS so long as it is an AGP card. Man I can remember when AGP first came into play and it was the Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. Now its worthless again... WTF? Everything is going to PCI - Express. This has to be some kind of gimic to force people into buying new MB and Video Cards.... Kinda of like changing gas powered cars to nitrogen or something... Must buy a whole new car or replace the motor you have in order to run the new, and only, fuel available.

[Fyron]

There are still going to be AGP cards available for at least a few years...

[Renegade 13]

Atrocities said:
Kinda of like changing gas powered cars to nitrogen or something... Must buy a whole new car or replace the motor you have in order to run the new, and only, fuel available.


I wish is was possible to make a car that could be powered by nitrogen! After all, about 76% of the atmosphere is nitrogen. Unfortunately, it's a rather stable element, and wouldn't work as a fuel at all.

Now ethanol...that's a fuel we should be using more. Cheap, easy, renewable, environmentally friendly.

Whoops, a little off topic there. Oh well.

You can still find AGP cards, even at the top-of-the-line. But who'd wanna pay that much for top-of-the-line stuff anyways?

[Fyron]

Ethanol would require a huge amount of land to be added for cultivation for any sort of wide-scale use (possibly as much as it takes to make food for 7 people, if this site (http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm) is reputable), which is not particularly good for the environment either (though obviously in a different way). Ah, tradeoffs. Hmm... a quick search for "ethanol production" found a number of issues with using it as a fuel.

[Atrocities]

FlexFuel cars are already being sold in South America in great numbers. They have an established distribution infrustructure for ethanol fuel and have been selling it for years now.

The myth that we would need huge amounts of land to cultivate bio-fuel is a myth started by the oil companies in order to discourge research into that area. The truth is, you can make ethanol from many crops not just corn.

Alcohol fuel is the best alternative and is what I believe they are using in Brazil at the moment. Remember, the oil companies don't want alternative fuels on the market and have virtually bottomless pockets to keep the anti alternative fuel PR machine going.

"Its bad for the environment." - false
"Its bad for your motor." - False - look to flex fuel engines built by most manufactures now.
"It will cost more to produce." False, look to brazil and see that it is about a 1/3 the cost of gas.
"It will hurt the economy." Untrue, just flat out a lie.

Don't buy into the PR machine funded by the oil companies.

[Atrocities]

AGP vs PCI Express. Which is better and why? Is there really a noticable differance?

[Fyron]

AGP vs PCI Express. Which is better and why? Is there really a noticable differance?

PCI-E is a faster bus than AGP, so you will get better performance with PCI-E.

[Atrocities]

I wonder if my HP POS is PCI Express? I have never looked to be honest with you. What is the major differance between PCI and PCI Express slot? An additional smaller slot or something

[Renegade 13]

***Moved to the appropriate venue.***

[psimancer]

as a computer shop owner for 5 years (1995-2000) and still mildly follow the market

you are correct theyt do make changes every 5 years or so to force a repurchase

example basic motherboard slots

isa vs mca (the pc xt era)
isa was 16 bit mca was vastly better at 32and nearly as fast at data transfer as a pci howwever the isa added two options to compete eisa (extended ) which worked very well and was backward compatible
and vesa an extended slot design that cost more and only 3 slots per machine instead of all eight (thats right EIGHT SLOTS !!!!!) vesa was replaced by pci losing its backward compatible slot design the first instance of a completly non backward compatible design replacing and winning in popularity (note the user base attitude change from tech heads who understood what they were buying and the implications of compatibility and later addons or replacement of a board vs today's userbase that says fix my computer toaster please )then next step was shrinking the motherboard and the case thus forcing fewer slots (cost reduction) now standard at 1 to 3 plus an agp if not a builtin card then as a addon agp the accerlerated graphics port came in to promise faster graphics vs pci slots and now pci express is attempting to replace the agp with an extension of the pci slot standard

the computer industry has to change standards to force business users to change machinery every few years otherwise business the mainstay of the industry would still be running there programs on 80386 computers which can handle most business applications (properly programmed with good tight code) and only purchase faster machines for programs that required the massive bloated power needed for windows and its overblown interface (yes i run wxp pro i havent really become happy with linux like tomany old programs i have)

[kalthalior]

The problem I have with a couple of my older games (that I still enjoy playing) is that my system is too FAST. I only play a couple of "modern" games released in the last year or two. A friend of mine had a similiar problem and wound up rebuilding an old P133, and it looks like I'm going to wind up doing the same with my old P200.

[Thermodyne]

MS has an app called Virtual Server, and it will let you run guest OS’s from within your host OS. VS is a free download, so if you have a decent system with some ram to spare, you can set up 9x to run right on your desktop. You just load it up and it runs on top of your host OS. You can actually use both at the same time.

[TurinTurambar]

I run a dual-head setup with a Matrox Millenium G550. It's been able to handle everything up till this year. I wanted to play the demo of GalCivII but there are no drivers for this thing past DirectX 9.0. (GalCiv needs 9.0c support) The specs on the card (128bit/32) are up to the challenge except for that little crucial tid-bit. Same thing with the new Tomb Raider Demo.

Is there a good card that supports dual-head setups and will run these new games? I can't seem to find one. Well, not an affordable one at any rate...

TT

[rdouglass]

I run a dual-head setup with a Matrox Millenium G550



I run the same card and the obvious Q I had is the driver version. I'm running driver ver 5.95.5.0 on XP Pro and don't have problems with anything. I had lots of prob's with ver 5.21.xxx (or was it 5.27.xxx) either way the new version seemed to solve a ton of probs on my G550 card.

[Fyron]

Or you could get Vmware to do the same thing, also free now.

[Atrocities]

Computers are overrated.

[TurinTurambar]

rdouglass said:

I run a dual-head setup with a Matrox Millenium G550



I run the same card and the obvious Q I had is the driver version. I'm running driver ver 5.95.5.0 on XP Pro and don't have problems with anything. I had lots of prob's with ver 5.21.xxx (or was it 5.27.xxx) either way the new version seemed to solve a ton of probs on my G550 card.



Where did you get that driver? And have you tried to play a DirX9.0c game on it?

TT

[TurinTurambar]

Imperator Fyron said:
Or you could get Vmware to do the same thing, also free now.


Buh?

[Fyron]

The post was [Re: Thermodyne].

[TurinTurambar]

Hence my confusion, thank you.

[Thermodyne]

It’s just one of Fyron’s anti Microsoft comments. Its almost automatic now.

[Suicide Junkie]

You seem to be a bit touchy today... you're definitely reading more into that than is there.

[Atrocities]

Don't make us lock this thread! We will do it.... don't make us!

[rdouglass]

TurinTurambar said:
Where did you get that driver? And have you tried to play a DirX9.0c game on it?

TT



Got it from a new g550 card purchased new. I have about 50 of these cards in my office where I work as well as in my home PC. I ZIP'ed up the CD minus the Adobe Acrobat, DirectX, and docs (went from 180Mb down to 19 Mb) and put it here if you want it:

http://www.clarkinsurance.com/Matrox5.95.5.0.zip

I am not sure what version of DirectX games I've played but I know I play at least 1 (my 6 year old plays LEGO StarWars and I know that uses DirectX and I think it may even be 'c')

[Thermodyne]

Nag Nag Nag http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Fyron]

Thermodyne said:
It’s just one of Fyron’s anti Microsoft comments. Its almost automatic now.

What, talking about competing products is now considered anti-Microsoft? Seems more like that whole free market competition thing to me. Try out all of the options to see what fits you best.

[David E. Gervais]

Interesting thread,..

All I can say is the industry has gotten to the point where they are catering to the 'Bleeding Edge' (aka the top 5% of PC owners who have the latest best rigs and aparently spend the most money in the industry) This is a whole lot of bull.. the industry is gonna die faster than 5 ton rhino in quicksand if it continues to 'ignore' the mass majority of 'normal' PC users. I consider myself normal,.. why? because I can't afford to buy a new PC every year. heck I barely manage to get a new rig every 5 years. I'm still running my AMD 1.4ghz with a Gforce FX 5200. When will I next upgrade? hmmm,.. I expect another year or 2 before I can afford to make any upgrades. Real Life (tm) tends to eat up all my money, leaving little or none left for 'luxury' items.

I tend to raid the bargain bins now,.. those games run ok on my system and hey they cost less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif it's a win win situation.

Nuf said,. Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Fyron]

Thus, we have Dell, makers of cheap commodity computers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sivran]

My computer is only three years old.


My computer is three years old. It's handled everything I've thrown at it. Granted, I don't have FEAR and don't ever plan to.

Oh, and ethanol? Please. Takes too much energy to produce, gas is better. Bio-diesel man. Bio-diesel. Burrito-scented exhaust anyone?

[TurinTurambar]

<sniff,sniff> "Mmmm... french-fries..."

BTW Siv, that discussion's been moved to the OT:Ethanol thread

[TurinTurambar]

rdouglass said:

TurinTurambar said:
Where did you get that driver? And have you tried to play a DirX9.0c game on it?

TT



Got it from a new g550 card purchased new. I have about 50 of these cards in my office where I work as well as in my home PC. I ZIP'ed up the CD minus the Adobe Acrobat, DirectX, and docs (went from 180Mb down to 19 Mb) and put it here if you want it:

http://www.clarkinsurance.com/Matrox5.95.5.0.zip

I am not sure what version of DirectX games I've played but I know I play at least 1 (my 6 year old plays LEGO StarWars and I know that uses DirectX and I think it may even be 'c')


Funny that, Matrox says the latest driver is 5.93 for that particular card, and Driver Detective says I'm up-to-date. The only mention I can find of that driver is for a 400-series or Parahelia cards. You say this came with the G550 cd eh? Hmmm...

Oh, and hey, I downloaded that file thanks. Is it the whole "P-desk" install? If so I'll have to uninstall what I have first.

Thx,
TT

[rdouglass]

Is it the whole "P-desk" install?



Not the whole CD but should be all the PowerDesk stuff. As I said, I just removed Adobe Acrobat, DirectX, and the documentation. I have the bandwidth and space if you do. Let me know and I'll put up the whole thing.

And yup, got that CD with the last batch of 10 G550 cards I bought. I put the same driver on my personal G550 (which originally came with the 5.23 drivers) with no probs at all.

[rdouglass]

David E. Gervais said:
<snip>.. the industry is gonna die faster than 5 ton rhino in quicksand if it continues to 'ignore' the mass majority of 'normal' PC users. </snip>



Ya know, folks have been saying that since I bought my first computer in 1978. However, every year there is a new batch of kids in the game publishers target market (demographics, whatever word you want to put there) that must have the latest and greatest game. And the latest and greatest game usually needs the latest and greatest hardware. Besides, if there were never any excitement over being able to do new things with game software, we'd all still be playing Pong. (And now how much re-playability can you get outa' *that* one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

Hey, how do you think the game console market survives? Or the auto industry? Or the _____ industry? Oh sure, personally I agree with you. I drive a 6 year old truck not because I can't afford a newer one but why? The one I have works fine for me. I still have the same Atari I bought several years ago (don't want to admit actually how long ago) and it still works. Do I or my kids play it? Not a chance. They want to play the Xbox with Halo. Hey, I wanna' clue you in if you don't already know that Halo is quite a bit more fun than Pong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

The thing we have to keep in mind about statements like that is that there is a *lot* of disposable income out there and the game publishers target market has control over a big portion of that.

A lot of teenagers have a lot of influence over their parents money. Right or wrong, that's just the way it is. So as log as there are teens and game publishers, this industry won't die.

And besides they won't make much of guys like me - I haven't bought a PC game for myself since I bought Gold 4 years or so ago.

[TurinTurambar]

Aw, snap...

2.4ghz P4, 1.5gb RAM, latest video drivers, latest DirectX (april'06)...

Now the game won't even start.

[Renegade 13]

rdouglass said:
I drive a 6 year old truck not because I can't afford a newer one but why?


6 year old truck is still practically new! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I drive an 11 year old truck, love that thing and still works great...without a lot of the electronic crap the automotive companies think we want/need...

But that's a little OT so I'll shut up now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[rdouglass]

Renegade 13 said:

rdouglass said:
I drive a 6 year old truck not because I can't afford a newer one but why?


6 year old truck is still practically new! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I drive an 11 year old truck, love that thing and still works great...without a lot of the electronic crap the automotive companies think we want/need...

But that's a little OT so I'll shut up now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Yeah, but I didn't mention that I bought it 2 years ago and the one I had before that was 10 years old. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As to the G550 driver issue, would you like me to post the full CD image? Again, I run that version and have no problems. Have you tried removing all of it (game, DirectX, and driver) and install them in this order:

Video Drivers
DirectX
Game

That's how I normally will do it if I have problems with any of those things. I install all support software first.

That help any?

[Thermodyne]

Right now there are basically 8 markets,

1) Home user looking for a deal
This is the sub $1000 market, everyone has a piece, but profits are slim It is a high
volume area, but price driven. When Vista ships, profits should improve.
2) Home user looking for a high end system
High end trophy system (hangs head in shame).
Gaming systems. Of note here would be that Dell introduced a $10,000 over-clocked
dual SLI system and sold them out in a week. They also bought out Alienware,
probably so as to enter the AMD high end market. Alienware has allocations from
AMD, and Dell does not. AMD is sold out of many high end chips and probably could
not supply Dell until a new fab comes on line. This area is a money maker so long as
the economy stays good. As said above, there is a lot of disposable income out there at
the moment.
3) Media PC’s
This area is a good profit center, but it just never took off the way it was expected to.
If sales don’t pick up, it will become a nich market.
4) Personal use Laptop
Big market with all sectors doing well. But rapidly shifting to a price driven model
which hurts bottom lines.
4) Cooperate word processor
Has been very good for the last few of years, but starting to fade. The systems
purchased during the 2000 build out are being replaced, which has driven this area, but
most of that has been completed. The industry does not see this as a good market for
the next several years. Vista could help sales in this market.
5) Cooperate servers
Lots of movement here. Server count has exploded in the last few years, and while
these are still good systems, they have created a lot of unforeseen problems. Basically, they
are using to much energy. They require a lot of power and create a lot of heat. And
because of the smaller sizes, rack density has become a real issue. Look for rack
mounted 3 phase to DC power conversion, with the servers running on pre converted
DC power. This alone gives almost a 30% power savings. Also look for the next
generation of chips to run much cooler at a lower wattage. These will start shipping
before the end of the year, Intel has samples now. And as always, there is already
some movement on the Hill to create a tax credit for IT energy saying purchases. This
should be a big market for the next few years. With electricity costs set to explode this
summer, IT managers will be able to justify a lot of new hardware.
6) Cooperate Laptops/Tablets
Hot market, and should remain hot as long as the economy stays good.
7) Developed third world
This is seen a growth market, but everyone is still trying to figure out how to make a
profit.
8) Undeveloped third world
Last untapped market. Of late there has been a lot of talk about $100 laptops to “give”
away to these people. Until someone figures out how to make money from it, this will
remain an area for future growth.

Now for the spoiler. ATT having again become a giant in the industry is looking to change the
rules. The huge internet pipe network that they run is basically free for us to use. And it should
be. Most of it was built with grants and tax credits, some was even paid for by the tax payers.
Now they want to charge a toll for the use of their pipes, just as they do with their trunk POTs
lines. They claim that they only want big users like Google to pay, but the legislation they are
pushing would allow them to surcharge every user and charge premiums for certain protocols
such as VPN. If they get their way, the cost of going online could double. This will have a
noticeable impact on the PC industry. Some studies suggest that new sales will fall off 20% and
that online gaming would be adversely impacted to the tune of an 80% decline. Just imagine if
Geo got a bill for $100 plus every month from ATT on top of what he already pays. And for
no additional service provided. Most of us would be looking at $10 to $20 a month. And if
every pipe manager came on board, only god knows who you might owe at the end of the
month. And you might even see a decline in service as internet routers were programmed to use
the most profitable pipes. I wouldn’t trust ATT to route me over to the shortest-quickest route.
They will choke their own pipes before giving toll income to another carrier. Just think about it,
you pay $29 a month for your service, and ever time you go on line the meter starts running.
Google search, 10 cents. Send a turn to PBW, 20 cents. Down load patches, 25 cents. Sure,
they claim it they wont charge users, but if the law allows them to charge, how long will it be
before the bills show up in the mail?

[Thermodyne]

Renegade 13 said:

rdouglass said:
I drive a 6 year old truck not because I can't afford a newer one but why?


6 year old truck is still practically new! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I drive an 11 year old truck, love that thing and still works great...without a lot of the electronic crap the automotive companies think we want/need...

But that's a little OT so I'll shut up now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



My truck is a 94, and I would like to replace it. But the new trucks get the same milage as it does, so why bother. Everything still works and it still looks OK. With gas costing what it does, the only car that gets much use is the hybrid. 48 MPG beats the hell out of 18 any day of the week. My other car only gets low 20s, and hasn't been out of the garage in months.

[Phoenix-D]

On gas requirements: I did the math and my current car costs $.15 a mile in gas if gas hits $3.00 a gallon. If I went up to a 40 MPG car, that'd be cut in half.

Saving $.075 a mile means I'd have to drive that new car something like 20,000 miles before I'd even *break even* on gas costs..

[Renegade 13]

Thermo, why do you think Vista will help improve sales of hardware? Is it simply a case of the new OS requiring better hardware than the previous incarnations?

Also, with reference to ATT trying to charge users...I assume that they are American, and would not effect those of us up to the North? As far as I know, they're an American only company, so...I hope!

[Fyron]

You will still get the shaft, however. Since you don't pay AT&T for the premium service, your connections will be routed poorly. Certainly, servers for which you can get a path that does not go through anywhere is the US will not be affected. However, it will definitely affect every bit of traffic coming from web servers that is hosted or possibly even just passes through the US (on their lines, of course). If Google, Yahoo, MS, Ebay, etc., and all the little guys, have to start paying bucket loads of cash on top of what they and their users already pay for IP services from the likes of AT&T, they will be much less inclined to offer anything freely to anyone, in the US or no. Or if they still manage to make ends meet with free services, they will be even more heavily ad-based than they are now. Tiered Internet is good for noone.

[Thermodyne]

Renegade 13 said:
Thermo, why do you think Vista will help improve sales of hardware? Is it simply a case of the new OS requiring better hardware than the previous incarnations?

Also, with reference to ATT trying to charge users...I assume that they are American, and would not effect those of us up to the North? As far as I know, they're an American only company, so...I hope!



Historically, new OS’s cause users to go out and buy a new PC. Most Joe users don’t want to fool with doing a install at home. And MS says that they will not push the upgrade pkg very hard, preferring to have users upgrade to faster hardware at the same time. Most likely a lesson learned from the XP upgrade problems they had. Drivers are going to be an issue on upgrades early on, so they probably didn’t really want to support a bunch of old hardware either. And, you can bet that the Intel guys and the Dell girl will be pushing the benefits of a new system running Vista, so MS will sit back and let them spend the ad money. MS has already said that the OEM’s will get Corp Vista months before anyone else, and Dell says they will get the home version 90 days before it is boxed.

In the business world, there will be a lot of demand for the new security features and the cooperate world is not big on upgrading existing hardware. At my job we get free upgrades, but almost never actually do any. Higher management prefers to use a new OS’s as a reason to justify new hardware. In the cooperate world, the IT equipment budget is almost always the target of the first axe swing, so the managers have learned to be creative when seeking funds. Security being an issue, it is also become a way to deflect the axe.

ATT owns Backbone Fiber all over the world. If they are allowed to bill for usage, they will pass it on. Even if you don’t pay them directly, you will pay some way. It might mean a higher ISP fee, or where you live, probably some type of user fee added to your ISP bill. And if they get this influx of cash, it will be feeding time for the sharks. The big fish will gobble up the little fish. It’s already started in the US and EU.

This is a really bad thing, so if you live in the States, you need to start shooting off email to your Senators and MC’s. Hopefully, this will take an act of congress and require a bill before both houses. That will give us the opportunity to show our dislike of it. But at the moment, AT&T is trying to get it done with just a hearing at the FCC. And if they get what they want, word is that the EU is ready to fall in line behind them.

[Thermodyne]

Hey, something is wrong here, Fryron and Thermodyne are of the same mind about something.

[Suicide Junkie]

If we're lucky, their competitors will take the opportunity to cut them off. If they get given the shaft by ISPs who don't want to pay them extra, then the whole idea could die.

[Fyron]

AT&T? Competitors? With the recent merger of SBC with AT&T, we are almost back to square one with Ma Bell.

[TurinTurambar]

rdouglass said:
As to the G550 driver issue, would you like me to post the full CD image? Again, I run that version and have no problems. Have you tried removing all of it (game, DirectX, and driver) and install them in this order:

Video Drivers
DirectX
Game

That's how I normally will do it if I have problems with any of those things. I install all support software first.

That help any?



Nope. I did all that over again just now. The main monitor goes full-screen blank and then just hangs. The game-included "debugger" text-file says :


Debug Message: Version 1.0X DEMO VERSION last updated on: Wed Mar 22 18:28:31 2006
Debug Message: Could not find a TGN Serial No.
Debug Message: *********DXDiag info follows.*********
System Info
Time: 4/15/2006, 15:49:17
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
Machine Name: OFFICE
Operating System: Windows XP Professional (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 2 (2600.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519)
Languages: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: PT880_
System Model: AWRDACPI
BIOS: Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
Processor: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.40GHz
Physical Memory: 1536MB RAM
Page File: 257MB used, 3176MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS


Display Info
Display device 1:
Device Name: \\.\DISPLAY1
Card Name: Matrox Millennium G550 - English
Manufacturer: Matrox Graphics Inc.
Chip Type: Matrox G550
DAC Type: Integrated, 360 MHz
Key Device: Enum\PCI\VEN_102B&DEV_2527&SUBSYS_0F84102B&REV_01
Display Memory: 32.0 MB
Current Display Mode: 1280 x 1024 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor Name: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor Max Resolution: 1600,1200
Driver Name: G400DHD.dll
Driver Version: 6.12.0001.1950
Driver Date: 8/8/2005 16:12:52
DirectX Acceleration Enabled: Yes

Display device 2:
Device Name: \\.\DISPLAY2
Card Name: Matrox Millennium G550 - English
Manufacturer: Matrox Graphics Inc.
Chip Type: Matrox G550
DAC Type: Integrated, 360 MHz
Key Device: Enum\PCI\VEN_102B&DEV_2527&SUBSYS_0F84102B&REV_01
Display Memory: 32.0 MB
Current Display Mode: 1280 x 1024 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor Name: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor Max Resolution: 1600,1200
Driver Name: G400DHD.dll
Driver Version: 6.12.0001.1950
Driver Date: 8/8/2005 16:12:52
DirectX Acceleration Enabled: Yes



Sound info
Sound device 1:
Description: Realtek AC97 Audio
Default Sound Playback: Yes
Default Voice Playback: Yes
Hardware ID: PCI\VEN_1106&DEV_3059&SUBSYS_140E147B&REV_60
Manufacturer ID: 65535
Product ID: 65535
Driver Name: ALCXWDM.SYS
Provider: Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
Driver Version: 5.10.0000.5630
Driver Date: 6/30/2004 23:49:00
Type: WDM
Other Drivers:
Acceleration Level: 3
Cap Flags: 0
Min/Max Sample Rate: 0, 0



Debug Message: *********END dxdiag info.*********
Debug Message: Entering WinMain
Debug Message: ******* Starting Game Shell *******
Debug Message: Preparing to change display settings.
Debug Message: No compatible devices found.
Debug Message: InitializeDirect3D Failed.
Debug Message: Now windowed.
Debug Message: Shell initialization complete
Debug Message: WM_CLOSE message received.
Debug Message: GameUninitialize start

[rdouglass]

To TurinTurambar:

What DualHead mode do you have it running in? Same resolution or separate for each? I run mine in separate resolution mode. Even tho I set them the same, I think the card uses separate memory space for them in that config.

[Thermodyne]

I just talked to some guys that do that game a lot, and they said "Lots of luck with that card" It slots in right at the bottom of the list.

[TurinTurambar]

Thermodyne said:
I just talked to some guys that do that game a lot, and they said "Lots of luck with that card" It slots in right at the bottom of the list.



I kinda figured it probably was. Gotta find a better dual head card...

[TurinTurambar]

What do we think of THIS (http://www.buy.com/prod/ATI_Radeon_9550_256MB_DDR_AGP_8x_Graphics_Card_TV_ Out_VGA_DVI/q/loc/101/10382599.html) card? It has the same output setup as my Matrox, so I should be able to hook it up the same way. I just cant find any description of how the software handles the two monitors... whether it truly does dual-head or not.

[Thermodyne]

I like THIS ONE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814133013) much more. And I would like
THIS ONE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814129033) a little bit more.

Most cards will do dual display these days.

[Artaud]

Referring to Atrocities' original post...

Yes, I've noticed that about games and system requirements. And, you know what? It does not bother me as much as it did a year ago, because there are not many new games I want to play.

There was a time when I'd buy a game every other week. No more. I don't need another first person shooter. I don't need another RTS. I don't need another racing game.

I have Starcraft (not sure if it will run on the Win XP system I bought last fall, though). I have C&C Tiberian Sun and C&C Red Alert 2 or whatever it was called. I have Age of Empire II. I have Mechwarrior 3.

Sometimes (not nearly as often as I used to) I buy computer game magazines. I read the reviews...more military shooters, more monster shooters, more RTS games. I load the demos and after a few minutes realize that I already have several games that play this way but load faster and look great.

I read a review or preview of a game in the new PC Gamer magazine and the writer was going on about how photorealistic the faces were.

Well, that's nice, but so what? What I'm concerned about is the game play. Given the choice between a game that is a system-hog and does basically the same thing as one of my older games, and my older games, I'll continue to play the older games.

I'm not impressed by 3-D engines. Far too many of the articles in the gaming mags blather endlessly about how a game looks, rather than how it plays.

Older games like Capitalism II, Patrician II, Europa Universalis II, the old Sierra city-builders, the old Talonsoft civil war games, and SE4 impress me more than any new game demo.

Anyway, I just don't have the money to upgrade my computer every year. Maybe the short-attention-span crowd needs more glitz and flash with every new game, and maybe they have the cash and have sorted their priorities in life so that high-end gaming is at the top of the list...me, I just want a little bit of relaxation.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Here's one you might like, then: http://www.enemynations.com/

Old, free download, some random AI problems that seem system-related (Not everyone has them) and...Number of players only really limited by the computer. Gameplay is fun, steep learning curve, graphics are good. Enemy AI does pretty good - Prepare to be tromped, your first few games.

[Artaud]

Looks interesting, Narf. But the website says there is no demo anymore, and that the company is no longer selling the game.

It says find a free copy wherever you can, but I'm kind of reluctant to DL things from sources I don't know very well. The virus makers are always a step ahead of the anti-virus software makers.

[Phoenix-D]

" Free Copy!
Thanks to Windward Reports which is paying for the download bandwidth, Enemy Nations is now a free download. To download Enemy Nations please click here. And tell your friends, because then you can take them on in an online game. "

[Artaud]

Found it. I'm wondering, though - if it's free, what's the catch? Does it install spyware or adware?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Nope - It's just old. According to the press page, about 9 years. That's before spyware, if my memory serves me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Artaud]

Has anybody here downloaded and played it?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Yep.

[Alneyan]

Yeah. That was a while ago, though.