Opinions wanted on new tech (Pirate Mod)

[Suicide Junkie]

Basically a poll thread. Like/Dislike/Why.

1) "Large" planetary shields available at shield tech level 14.
For comparison, MPSG gives 20k/50k/75k shields, the large give 5k/20k/50k.
This is intended to make the Planetary shields both worthwhile to build & parallels the massive ion / massive shield depleter techs, where you can research your own, but they're not a powerful.


2) Point Defence Lasers. The PDCannons, are limited to 3 range at max, while the PDLasers go 8, but are limited to half damage. PDC's then defend your ship, while the PDL's defend the fleet.


3) Satellite Siege Mount. 2x size, 1.5x damage, 5x cost, +5 range. Large sats only.
I haven't actually got the tech to try these, so I'm not sure how effective they are.


4) (the big one) Hardened Bulkheads. Providing 25 to 35 hitpoints and no space taken up. They cost 400 to 350 each, and are non-armor. Basically if you have a ship with 20 components, say 500 hitpoints. Then, putting on an additional 20 HBs will give you 500 hitpoints, and a 50% less chance of losing a component on any one hit. The 20 HBs will set you back a hefty 8K minerals, though.
I think this will be really good for the roleplayers out there who want a flagship that is special over the regular forces. If you have funds to spare, then you can create a really tough (and presumably luxurious) ship. Low maintenance really helps justify the expence here, but you could still have built two or three more ships instead of HB'ing your flagship.

[Baal]

On the topic of #4 I'd like to see a racal trait option for components with more/less durability.

You choose this trait and it makes all components on all your constructs 10%, 20%, whatever stronger.

And the same going the other way. At the cost of ship durability you could gain more racial points to place elsewhere.

This new racial trait would definitely diversify the game more.

[chewy027]

I like em all. they'll all add more gameplay. #4 would be cool but it would definetely have to cost A LOT of resources to put on. Imagine a player with a huge surplus who just loads up on these bulkheads. You should probably put a limit on how many per ship size can be used. Ex. 5 on escorts.... 30 on dreadnaughts. Something like engines but bulkheads.

Thoughts?

[Taqwus]

Nifty. But a concern about the fourth one -- would it lead to incredibly tough ramming ships? Probably not, because it's not armor (and thus internal components could take mucho damage)... but something to test.

Are the PDLasers as accurate as the PDCs?

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>On the topic of #4 I'd like to see a racal trait option for components with more/less durability.
You choose this trait and it makes all components on all your constructs 10%, 20%, whatever stronger.

And the same going the other way. At the cost of ship durability you could gain more racial points to place elsewhere.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great idea. It could be a characteristic, just like repair aptitude. Send it to MM!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>#4 would be cool but it would definetely have to cost A LOT of resources to put on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, it most certainly does. For the price of doubling you hitpoints, you could almost build (& maintain) a whole new second ship.
Its $400 per 35 damage resist. It is really intended to be used for different play styles.
Ie. Player one uses double-strength ships, Player two uses twice as many ships.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Nifty. But a concern about the fourth one -- would it lead to incredibly tough ramming ships? Probably not, because it's not armor (and thus internal components could take mucho damage)... but something to test.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure how the ramming damage is calculated, if it is a multiple of the hull strength, then it will be a problem, but if its based on the mass of the ship, everything will work out.
When you get hit by anything, the HBs will only absorb (#of HB / # of components)% of the damage. So if your ramming ship is dependent on HBs, it'll get slightly more crippled with each ram.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Are the PDLasers as accurate as the PDCs? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are an exact copy of the PDC, but with the changes I mentioned. So, the PDL are just as accurate as the original PDCs, roughly 75% at max range, while the new PDCs are guaranteed to hit because they only fire at point-blank range.

[Marty Ward]

I like the all ideas but I have 2 questions.
Would linking the planetary shields give you free shield levels if you discovered them on a ruin?
Should there be a counter for the hardened bulkheads? Without them being able to be countered with some weapon you probably could make an undestroyable ship.
Also, you may want to consider adding a varient of the small missile mod if you add another PD type. I think it is in the D-Man mod if you need ideas. You can create cheap deadly missile ships with this. The laser PD reminds me of a close support weapon.

[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 22 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

Finding planetary shield tehc in a ruin will give you MPSG tech level 1.
You still need shields 3 to get a MPSG I facility.
If you captured a planet with a MPSG you might be able to get free shield techs, but I don't think you can analyse facilities.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Should there be a counter for the hardened bulkheads? Without them being able to be countered with some weapon you probably could make an undestroyable ship<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Doubling your ship's hitpoints with HB will boost the price of your ship to double also.
So, for the cost of a double-hitpoint HB ship, you could build two standard ships.
HBs can stop armor-penetrating, shield penetrating, shield destroying, weapon destroying weapons. The counter for that is simply standard weapons, which do much more damage than the specialty types, and so they will cut through the HBs.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, you may want to consider adding a varient of the small missile mod if you add another PD type. I think it is in the D-Man mod if you need ideas. You can create cheap deadly missile ships with this. The laser PD reminds me of a close support weapon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My PDC is a "one square away" close support weapon, the PDL, can cover ships much farther away, and will have a chance to fire twice (at half-power) on missiles coming for the PDL ship.
In fact, I believe that my PD is weaker than the standard files' PD.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 22 April 2001).]

[Deathstalker]

I posted a CompEnhancement mod awhile ago in the data mod section that had both 'hardened componants' and missile mounts (a light one), your welcome to take a look and use any of the ideas if you want. There are also mounts for other weapons as well, they were mainly used to force the AI to use different ship sizes in different roles.
The 'hardened componant' could be used for any componant to double the dmg resist/cost of the comp.

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"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

[Suicide Junkie]

The only reason why I didn't go with a component enhancement for hardened components was because it would apply to armor as well. Armored armor is kind of silly...
I think I may add some missile mounts though.

[Deathstalker]

True, if you look at it as 'Armoured armour' it is silly...but then again, really what is Plate Mail armour but chainmail with a few metal plates over top?? Or in other words, 'armoured armour' http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif Whenever I used my mod I just looked at it as a costlier Version of the normal armour, better materials (ie, steel plate vs. say 'bronze' plate).....(that and why would I want two componants that have 30resist each that I would have to repair seperately when I could have one with 60 that would need repair less often??)....But hey, thats why I LOVE this game, everyone mods it to their own likes and dislikes...The game may be good but the support/people who play it make it Outstanding!

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

[Trachmyr]

Ok, comments and suggestions....

1) Shield generators are a good idea, however I think you might be overpowering the upper levels... after all they still use only 1 fac spot.

2) I'll get to that at the end

3) I agree that if you make a better mount type for sats it should improve range not damage so much... personally I don't use sats, so I'm not sure how they'll play out, but remeber that the AI will always use the biggest mount (or the one further down the list) available.

4) Even though the hull is strengthened, the struts/thicker wall/ect. will still use some space... perhaps 1-5KT, Also now that "One per ship" restriction is active, perhaps you can utilize that feature for "Heavy/Very Heavy/Extremely Heavy" reinforcement. I'm planning on adding something very similiar to the Crystalline tech (Crystalline Structure... LOTS of hits, uses 20 tons and a lot of radioactives, one per ship)

Now for PD weapons...

I think you set the range for PD lasers too high... I have had PD GUNS (5 Ton, 2 range, 1/2 damage) in my mod for a while.... at first their range was 3, but I found myself never using the cannons. Why? Because at range 3, a few ships could easily protect the fleet from incoming missiles/fighters...
But by dropping range to 2, these guns really only protect their own ship and sometimes their neighbor (the way it should be), thus I still mounted cannons on the larger ships to protect the fleet. I have had a lot of time tweaking theese, so believe me... at range 3, Half damage and only 5 tons... your PD lasers are very unbalanced!

Additionally, as an additional reason for big ships to mount PD Cannons, I added the tag to make PD GUNS be treated as armor... these small, lightly armored turrets get picked off easy by weapons fire, furthermore this gives fighters a chance against these smaller guns/lasers. I also added the "External Missiles" and made the be treated as armor as well.

Here is a list of PD weapons in my mod, if you see anything you like... feel free to borrow it:

PD Cannons: Basically the std PD's from MM, but with a range of 3-6.

PD Guns: As described above, 5Tons, 1/2 damage, range 1-2, deystroyed with armor.

PD Rockets: 40 tons, 50% better damage, range 8-10, reload rate 2. (these are still being tweaked, they are not seekers, this way distant fighters have a chance to get in)

RAP Armor: "Reactive Armor Plating", each 10 ton piece of armor (as good as std armor), has a PD weapon with a range of 1, hits only seekers, reload rate 30, does enough damage to kill any seeker. Ever wonder what the Last few tons should be, PD or armor? Well now you can have your cake and eat it too!

Well that's my 2 cents.

Opps, sorry misunderstood what your PDC/PDL were... I thought you made a smaller Version, (that's what I get for skimming through).... I'm not sure about your arangement, Tell me how they do, I might add analogs to my own mod!

[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 22 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Opps, sorry misunderstood what your PDC/PDL were... I thought you made a smaller Version, (that's what I get for skimming through).... I'm not sure about your arangement, Tell me how they do, I might add analogs to my own mod!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2) Point Defence Lasers. The PDCannons, are limited to 3 range at max, while the PDLasers go 8, but are limited to half damage. PDC's then defend your ship, while the PDL's defend the fleet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
PDC:
-range 3 at tech lvl 5
-Full damage (kill one seeker /shot)
-20kT
-reload 1

PDL:
-range 5 to 8, at higher tech
-roughly half damage. (typically two shots /seeker)
-20kT
-reload 1.

Basically, its a short range kinetic kill cannon, or a "scratch em till they bleed" long range laser.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Shield generators are a good idea, however I think you might be overpowering the upper levels... after all they still use only 1 fac spot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You'd be surprised what a 100% hitrate can do for your damage capabilities. But still, when you get 16 tech levels in shields, you deserve something tough. It will also encourage troop landings (like starwars).

I still have to see how they play out, though.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Even though the hull is strengthened, the struts/thicker wall/ect. will still use some space... perhaps 1-5KT, Also now that "One per ship" restriction is active, perhaps you can utilize that feature for "Heavy/Very Heavy/Extremely Heavy" reinforcement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"One per ship" would definitely not be enough. This stuff is not armor, so if you only had one, it would only stop about 4% of the hits. I need this to be lots of components, since its non-armor.

how it works, is that with a 20 component ship, you add 20 HB points, and you reduce internal damage by 50%.
Add 40, internal damage is reduced by 65%
add 60, I.D. is down by 75%
add 80, 80%
add 180, 90%

thing is, at $400 a pop, ($100 maintenance)that comes to:
20 = 8k minerals
40 = 16k
80 = 32k
180 = 72k = 18k mintenance! = bankrupt empire

Think of it as ripping up the carpeting, stripping the walls & putting in ablative armor instead http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also now that "One per ship" restriction is active, perhaps you can utilize that feature for "Heavy/Very Heavy/Extremely Heavy" reinforcement<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm curious as to how that would work. would it be a single armor component, or what?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>that and why would I want two componants that have 30resist each that I would have to repair seperately when I could have one with 60 that would need repair less often??)....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ahh, but in this case, it is: "should I use the 30kT armor that gives me 200 hitpoints, or the thirty 1kT armor segments that give me 300 hitpoints, but take four turns to repair?"

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 22 April 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

As for the Heavy/VH/XH concept... I just now realize what your hull strengthening is supposed to accomplish ("decoy" internal componets), so this idea dosen't really do what you want...

This idea I'm going to add to crystaline tech... it's not armor, it only helps prevent the ship from destruction not being "gutted"... diffrent levels have diffrent sizes/hp (would normally have 1 Version per ship size, but since custom Groups is not working, that idea is moot).
I might add some basic abilities to the componet, such as a bit more propulsion w/o supply usage... so even your "gutted" ship can get back to repair faster... even if it has lost all engines.

But now I see what your "reinforced hull" does, and it's quite intriguing... I might just try it out.



[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 22 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This idea I'm going to add to crystaline tech... it's not armor, it only helps prevent the ship from destruction not being "gutted"... diffrent levels have diffrent sizes/hp (would normally have 1 Version per ship size, but since custom Groups is not working, that idea is moot).
I might add some basic abilities to the componet, such as a bit more propulsion w/o supply usage... so even your "gutted" ship can get back to repair faster... even if it has lost all engines<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting... a ship Core Component.
You might have a problem if the core gets hit early on in the battle. It'll then absorb every hit until it is destroyed, and would effectively give your ship a lot of armor. You need some way to make sure it is one of the Last components to get hit.

Perhaps if it had no structure points, but had around 150kT of emissive strength. That way, if it was hit, it wouldn't keep taking hits (maybe), and only a big bLast would destroy it.

As for propulsion, supplies would be low, and I think the destroyed engines still waste supplies when you move. If you use a solar sail type ability, with a unique bonus type, you can give it movement without interfering with normal movement or bonus or solar sail bonus. (Val 1 is how much bonus, Val 2 assigns a "family" of bonus, different families add up)

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

150KT strength... oh, man... If you knew how much I modded my game so far you'd think that was funny too... for instance wave motion guns do 600points of damage and a Armor3 componet has 100hits and only weighs 5 tons, a phased shield gen5 gives 1200 shield points.

But as to your comment, I see your point. Do you know exactly how a componet gets targeted... does it give an equal chance for each componet, is it based on tonnage, or does it go after the easiest to deystroy componet first... for instance, I'll have a ship with a few pieces of armor strong enough to resist the damage of damaging warp points... additionally I'll have 4 external missiles and 4 PD guns (both the missiles and guns count as "armor"), never fail that when I take damage from the WP all missiles/PD guns are deystroyed... and the armor is untouched. This leads me to think that damage is applied first to componets the damage CAN deystroy (or the weakest), then to the tougher componets. As far as an "equal or tonnage based" chance of which componet gets hit... I have 4 armor pieces, that weigh 40 tons total and the missiles (10) + the PDs (5) weigh 60... thus if it was random, I should see the ship come out unscated about 1/3 (random) or 2/5 (tonnage) of the time... and if that's the way it works, as long as the "Crystaline reinforcement" has the most hits, it'll be the Last to go. But, then again I'm just guessing untill I test it.

I'm curious, What do you think about my RAP Armor?

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you know exactly how a component gets targeted...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, with identical components, its random.

Internals only:
As for it choosing the weakest, NO.
As for it choosing by mass, NO.

When I simmed a battle using the HBs, I had a "Bertha ++++" http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif class ship.

The first hull hit destroyed 4 HBs.
The second hit took out 2 Shield Regen, and 1 HBs
The third hit took out an engine or two and some HBs
The fourth hit took out 2 more Shield Regen, and more HBs.
Then the enemy was dead.

I'd have to do some tests for armor damage. There could even be a difference between combat and natural (or mine) damage.

[Suicide Junkie]

Results of armor test:

DN size ship with 6 of every type of armor.

1) 6 ablative armor gone. (14kT damage resist)
2) most of Armor III gone (50kT damage resist)
3) total of 5 Armor III destroyed. 2 stealth armor down (100kT resist)
4) Remaining: 1 armor, 3 stealth, 5 emissive (120 kT +30 emiss)
5) Armor III dead. 5 emiss, 5 crystal, 2 stealth
6) 4 emiss, 4 crys, 1 stealth
7) 3 emiss, 4 crys, 1 stealth
8) 2 emiss, 3 crys, 1 stealth
9) 1 emiss, 3 crys, 1 stealth
10)emiss dead, 3 crys, 1 stealth
11)stealth dead, 3 crys
12)
13) 2 crys
14)
15) 1 crys
16)
17)
18) Crys dead
19)
20)
21)
etc. Clearly, organic armor kicks ***, cause theres still 6 of em.

Round 2:
1) 60 damage shot, kills 4 ablative.
2) 60 dmg, kills 1 ablative, 1 standard.
3) 60 dmg, kill 1 ablative
4) 60 dmg, kill 1 stealth
5) 60 dmg, kill 1 standard.

So, it looks like the armor damage is somewhat random, but favors hits to weaker or smaller segments.

New Test:
Legend
--------------------------------
* = Evidence that the stealth armor has taken partial damage
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif = Stealth armor destroyed
X = Me screwing up. stealth armor was either destroyed, or evidence was showing & I missed it.
--------------------------------

Start) 10 Stealth (30kT, 100Hp) 30 Standard (10kT, 50Hp)

1) 10 Stealth, 24 standard
2) 10 Stel, 19 stan *
3) 10 stel, 12 stan
4) 10 stel, 7 stan *
5) 8 stel, 4 stan http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
6) 6 stel, 0 stan

Test 2 (60 at a time)
1) 29 stan
2) 28 stan
3) 27 stan
4) 26 stan
5) 24 stan
6) 23 stan
7) 22 stan
8) 21 stan
9) 20 stan
10) 18 stan
11) 17 stan
12) 16
13) 15
14) 14
15) 13*
16) 13 stan, 9 stel http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
17) 12 stan, 9 stel
18) 11 / 9
19) 11 / 9 *
20) 10 / 9 http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif the smiley below should probably be here, but i think i miscounted the remaining armor.
21) 9 / 9 X
22) 8 / 9 X
23) 7 / 9 X
24) 6 / 9 X
25) 4 / 8 http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
26) 3 / 8
27) 2 / 8
28) 1 / 8
29) 1 / 8 *
30) 1 / 7 http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
31) 0 / 7

SO....
-There is some element of randomness
-Small/weak armors are hit more often on first impact
-the second component hit is likely chosen in a similar manner as the first hit.

Third test
Start) 10 Stealth (30kT, 100Hp), 10 Crys (30kT, 150Hp)

only showing when a comp was killed:
1) 9 Stealth, 10 crys
2) 7 Stealth, 10 crys !! 2 stealth killed with one 60 dmg hit !!
3) 6 / 10
4) 5 / 10
5) 4 / 10
6) 3 / 10
7) 2 / 10
8) 1 / 10
9) 1 / 9
10) 0 / 9

round 2
1) 8 / 10
2) 7,6,5
3) 4 / 10
4) 4 / 9
5) 4 / 8
6) 4 / 7
7) 3 / 7
8) 3 / 6
9) 2 / 6
10) 1 / 6
11) 1 / 5
12) 0 / 5

Hmm...
-Mass does not seem to be the determining factor.
-Lower resistance armors are hit more often.
-The wandering "partial" damage increases the likelyhood that weak armors will be killed. (strong armor dosent die, next hit, the "partial" damage randomly goes into a weak armor, killing two)

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

Very interesting... supports my theory that damage first goes to things that can be deystroyed... and divided so that the most number of componets can be deystroyed. Any "leftover" damage that isn't large enough to deystroy anything, goes to a random target... or is it carried over?

Thanx for running that test, I wonder if the same "rule" holds true for internal componets... the rammification of this mean that if your "HB" componets have very low hits, they will act more like armor than "decoys", if they have high hits then they will be the Last things deystroyed.

My head spins with the possibilites!

[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

As for my HB components, they aren't armor, so this dosen't affect them.

I'm pretty sure that internals are totaly random. Otherwise, weapons would always be Last to die, since they have 50-70 HP, while the engines, bridge, etc have 10 HP.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm curious, What do you think about my RAP Armor?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pretty nifty. I'd probably use a Version that had:
-5kT
-maxdamage
-1 range
-50 to 75 armor Hp
-destroyed on use

I'll probably leave the Missiles as is, but make CSMs be described as (shaped chemical warheads) and make a new, Big Missile that IS nuclear, and will be a "quad damage to shields" because of the EMP in the bLast.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

Good Idea about the 4x damage, I was going to add a few new types of missiles/launchers.

BTW, we use RAP armor now on tanks, it dosen't deystroy the armor... it's a shaped charge explosive that directs it's force away from the tank when a tiny little sensor detect a fast incoming target... it does leave that part exposed to new missile attacks (well, right now it's only used vs. shaped charge explosives). However, my RAP armor has it's Accuraccy modifier changed by level (10/30/50) to show inprovement in the "sensor".

I'm also gonna add COUNTERMEASURES... 1KT, 60pts damage, 1 range, ACC mod -30/-15/0, reload 30(or deystroyed)... whatcha think?

[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>it's a shaped charge explosive that directs it's force away from the tank when a tiny little sensor detect a fast incoming target<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well that seems reasonable. I shall retract my "destroyed on use".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm also gonna add COUNTERMEASURES... 1KT, 60pts damage, 1 range, ACC mod -30/-15/0, reload 30(or deystroyed)... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
basically, your RAP, but 10x the PD and no armor, right?

Problem is, you can replace a single PDC with 20CM.
Most PDCs don't fire 20 times in a single combat, so you get more use out of the CM.
You're also getting a bonus of being able to take down missiles with burst-fire.

These things definitely need to be destroyed on use, and make them 2kT of space.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

Ok, I see your concerns with the CM's... but don't overlook the accuracy penalty... MANY will miss (maybe make it -30/-20/-10 That makes them 80-60% less accurate than PDC's)... so it's kinda up to chance. But if they work too good, then I'll deffinatly raise it to 2KT.

As far as the deystroyed/reload 30... either way they only get 1 shot per combat, the argument is if they can be reloaded between combats... I would have to lean towards yes.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the argument is if they can be reloaded between combats... I would have to lean towards yes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do they have supply bays full of spare counter measures, or do you build new CM charges each time?

I would suggest making them different from RAP & PD. If they were very effective, but had to be repaired each use, you'd use them with very different strategies. And, they would not be better than PD, only different. You'd want to put PD on your ship to save CM charges for emergencies.

Then ships would have to be designed with BOTH PD/RAP and CM. CM blocks the entire first wave of missiles, but fails on the second wave. The PD will keep firing away till the bitter end http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Phoenix-D]

FYI: unless something has changed since I tried it, "destroyed on use" does NOT work for weaponry.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif
well...30 reload is OK too, then. Make it destroyed on use also, so when MM get it working for weapons, you'll be all set.

[Trachmyr]

Thankx for the info Phoenix.

Uh, Mr. Junkie... I'm not sure which way you're suggesting.... bigger and more effective or smaller with low acc (like I have).

I will have a variety of PD in my mod, all are diffrent:

PD guns: Small, fairly accurate, low damage & CLOSE Range... blown away with armor

PD Cannons: Medium range, accurate, 20ton, high damage

RAP:small, counts as armor (but only 1/3 hits of normal), contact range, 1 use vs. missile(only) with high damage and ok accuraccy

Countermeasures:Tiny,very-low accuracy,"contact" range, high damage, 1 use (missile only)

PD rocketry: Long range, Heavy weapon, High Damage, accurate and reload 2

Might add lasers:

PD Lasers: like PD guns, but longer range better accuracy and twice as heavy.

PD Laser Cannon: Like PD cannons, but longer range, lower damage, more accurate, 5tons heavier.

Might add Particle accelerator

PD N-PAWS Cannon(neutral particle accelerator weapon system): Like PD cannon but more accurate and better damage, 10tons heavier.

PD Light N-PAWS (like guns, but heavier, better damage & accuraccy)

All PD requires Point-Defense Weapons, additionally:
Guns/Cannon: Projectile Weapons
Lasers/Laser Cannon: Laser Weapons
Rocketry/countermeasures: Missiles
Particle Accelerators: Particle Weapons
RAP: Armor

(I'm also adding a bunch of missiles and launchers)

[Marty Ward]

I like linking the new PD's to other "less valuable" weapons areas. Put one that requires Menson BLaster and I might even research it for the first time http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Trachmyr]

That's possible, thought about adding PD's for Mesons and anti-polorons...

As far as the techs that I am linking the PD's to (except armor), they're all starting techs in my mod (Projectile/Laser/Particle/Missile). All weapons start at level 0, so you have to use some of your reseach bonus to "determine" your race's weapon style (to balance this I give you Troops, Applied Political Science, Biology (Actually removed Biology, and renamed Applied medical science to biology) and repair at level 1)

[Suicide Junkie]

Sorry for the delay, my internet provider dropped out for an hour http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif


Basically, I was saying
-Continuous fire PDC
vs
-One-shot burst-fire CM, with less total firepower.

You need each type of PD to specialize in a certain area.
-range
-damage
-ammo
-Rate Of Fire
-accuracy
-some special secondary ability
-etc.


Looks like you got
-ROF (Countermeasures)
-range (Lasers, rockets)
-accuracy (Cannon Versions, rockets)
-Ammo (Lasers, Guns)
-damage (PDgun Cannon, rocket)
-Special ability (RAP- armor)

Advantages for stuff:
PDG: some ROF, Accuracy, Ammo
PDGC: some range, Accuracy, damage, Ammo
RAP: some Accuracy, Damage, Ability-Armor
CM: ROF, damage
PDR: Damage, Range, Accuracy
PDL: Ammo, Range, Accuracy
PDLC: Ammo, Range
NPC: some Ammo, some range, Accuracy, Damage
NPCL: some damage, Accuracy, Ammo.

Interesting, but quite confusing about what abilities each has.
Perhaps standardizing the stuff.
eg.
Guns: high damage, med fire rate, short range.
Lasers: Low damage, med fire rate, long range.
PAWS: high Accuracy, med damage, low fire rate, long range.

"cannon" suffix = extended range, heavier damage, lower fire rate.

RAP, Rockets & CM are special.


Meson bLaster tech could be used for the PAWS stuff.

[Trachmyr]

Well, they are kinda standerdized...

Projectile: "The Control Group"

Laser: Slightly heavier, Better range and accuracy, lower damage

Particle: Heavier, slightly better range/accuracy, Higher damage (tears up fighters!... just added them & started testing.)

Light Guns: Counts as armor, gets taken out easily by weapons and fighters. Each type has better resistance: Guns (2xtonnage), Lasers (2.5x tonnage), PAWS (5x Tonnage)

Cannons: Adds Weight/Range/Accuraccy/Damage

Missiles: High range/damage, good accuracy, Heavy with reload 2

RAP & CM: special... single use, lower acc then PD weapons... RAP is better, Heavier + armor


As far as meson bLasters being advanced particle weapons... I'll probally do exactly that.

Projectile weapons: Guns-&gt;Electomags-&gt;Gravguns (I was gonna make grav stuff a seperate racial tech, but decided against it)

Laser Weapons: Laser-&gt;Xaser-&gt;Graser (Gamma radiation laser)

Particle Weapons: N-Paws/C-Paws(charged particle accelerator, more damaging but only works vs. planets (needs an atmosphere)-&gt;Meson Particle Accelerators-&gt;Anit-Particle Accelerator (fewer levels... higher cost)

Each type will be a seprate field (laser,Xaser,Graser), but will require the Last level of the previous type and one higher physics... So Laser needs nothing, but Xaser needs laser 5 & Physics 1, Grasers need Xaser 5 and Physics 2. Projectile weapons will need physics for Electromags, but Astrophysics for Gravguns... Missiles might need chemistry or propulsion to start a new "Tech Thread". (I still got some work to do on the tech-tree)

This is in addition to missiles, planetary weapons, torpedos, Poloron weapons (std/phased/anti), Fusion Weapons(high-energy discharge), Gravity weapons, etc.


I just wish MM would get around to activating the CUSTOM GROUPS so I can finish up my mod and post it! (instead of jus' talkin' 'bout it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif)



[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 24 April 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

Oh, BTW here is a little tidbit you might find interesting.... if you give missiles a range of 21 (it won't cause a crash!), 2 things happen:
1) The missile can target ships at that range or less.
2) The missile can't be outran... it has no max. Range! that means it goes until it hits or is deystroyed. just FYI

[Suicide Junkie]

How would you actually do that?
Add an extra, 21st number to the end of the damage Ratings?

[Trachmyr]

Yep, just add one more damage entry... but the entries all have to be non-zero (I think)

[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 24 April 2001).]

[Lupusman]

Ok, I didn't really go through all the postings about this so sorry about the repeats.
I have to say that what you did was pretty good. By that I mean, making enough changes so that the entire style of the game is quite different than the original.

I only tried one long game so far, and I noticed a few things up till now.

When you pick Nomad and Pirate as a racial trait, lots of components get doubled in the listings.
The Swashbuckler component shows up on the fighter list, but I get an error when trying to use it, saying that this vehicle [fighter] is not able to use it.
Also, I must have tried about 40 times to capture an unshielded ship with it (using a regular ship) and it failed every single time. Maybe it was my bad luck.
Computer generated AI's (not the ones that you made the emp files for) for example neutrals (but not only them), don't start with a space yard on their planet. Hence they cannot build anything and are useless.
A few of the component family numbers need to be changed. The Swashbuckler component always overrides Boarding parties (even level 5) when upgrading ships. Something is also wrong with that new Shield generator component you made (can't remember the name), as it overrides regular shielding components that are better.
Also on shielding, phased and regular shields seem to be alternating as they are researched.
It is extremely difficult to fight against races that put self-destructs on their ships. Not a negative thing, just pointing it out.
Although the game starts very slow, it goes fine. A good challenge. Once you get a base installed in a red Nebulae system, though, you can never be beat, as the AI (I doubt) will ever clear it in order to see you.

So, yes sir, I like it (Said in the style of the horse from Ren and Stimpy, if anyone know what the hack I'm talking about).

[Suicide Junkie]

It looks like you didn't quite use this mod as intended http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When you pick Nomad and Pirate as a racial trait, lots of components get doubled in the listings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You really should only pick one of the three, unless you're trying to get a really easy game. Pirates are half-way between Nomad & Normal, so they have quite a few crossover techs, and the only way to do that is to double them up. If you play as only one type, you won't see that.

Also, the SE4's restrictions aren't working right now, cause otherwise you wouldn't be able to choose more than one http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The Swashbuckler component shows up on the fighter list, but I get an error when trying to use it, saying that this vehicle [fighter] is not able to use it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm afraid that is just SE4, it dosen't bother to even check to see if the fighter has a boarding component. Its hardcoded, but should be easy to change, so I left it in and am waiting for a fix.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, I must have tried about 40 times to capture an unshielded ship with it (using a regular ship) and it failed every single time. Maybe it was my bad luck.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you check the description, they are only about half as effective as the Highly trained BPs. The crew from one crew quarters can defeat them, so you must destroy all crew quarters, or have more Swashbucklers than enemy crew quarters.

Thats a small failing in the description of Crew quarters http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. They don't even have an explicit ability for BP defence, but they have 16 defence each (80% of a BP1's attack)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Computer generated AI's (not the ones that you made the emp files for) for example neutrals (but not only them), don't start with a space yard on their planet. Hence they cannot build anything and are useless<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep. They're not "Normal", and theyre not "Pirate" or "Nomad", so they get almost no technology.

You can add more races by randomly generating, save the race on turn 1, then start a new game, add them to the game, edit them, and give them "Normal". Save again, and they're ready to play.

SEE P&N

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A few of the component family numbers need to be changed. The Swashbuckler component always overrides Boarding parties (even level 5) when upgrading ships<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can Do. Will update http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Something is also wrong with that new Shield generator component you made (can't remember the name), as it overrides regular shielding components that are better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The big ones or the little ones?
The First Heavy Shield Generator is slightly weaker, but is Way cheaper to operate. The next levels of Heavy are all more powerful than normal shields.
The Hardened mini-shields are half armor, so they actually provide more protection to your ship than shield generators.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also on shielding, phased and regular shields seem to be alternating as they are researched<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep. Cool eh?
You have to decide whether to get Lots of shield points, or some phased shield points, or research another level to get lots of phased. But then, one more level gets you PILES of normal shield points http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is extremely difficult to fight against races that put self-destructs on their ships. Not a negative thing, just pointing it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, yeah. Part of the challenge of being a pirate http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Some would rather die than be captured, tortued and sent to the slave camps!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Once you get a base installed in a red Nebulae system, though, you can never be beat, as the AI (I doubt) will ever clear it in order to see you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As a Pirate, you could get starved out and killed by maintenance costs, but Nomads would potentially sit there forever.
Heck, a normal player could dump a few fighters and stay in a nebula forever too.

I'm not dead yet! I'm not dead yet! I'm still good! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
-highly paraphrased from Homer Simpson.

[Lupusman]

Not as intended? Excuuuse me! All I did was play. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I just wanted to tell you that 'if' you pick both pirate and nomad, some components come out double. There might be a way to avoid that.
Concerning the generated AI's, was it done purposefully so that they start with no Space Yard, or is that just a side effect?

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just wanted to tell you that 'if' you pick both pirate and nomad, some components come out double. There might be a way to avoid that. Concerning the generated AI's, was it done purposefully so that they start with no SpaceYard, or is that just a side effect?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The doubling is nessesary to give the small space yard to both Nomads and Pirates, but not Normals.

As for the generated AIs, they don't choose the advanced trait of "Normal", so they don't get any techs. The AIs would have to be altered to choose those techs, and I haven't touched the AIs in my mod.

PS: It dosen't matter to me whether you chose more than one trait, but don't expect everything to look right or be as challenging as it could be http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif