Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen shots?

[Wade]

So, I'm assuming that everyone, for the most part, will abandon playing SE4 when SE5 is released.
What are you're opinions of the SE5 screenshots?
In particular, what do you think of the space and ground battles being in real time?

I appreciate the concept; stategic being turn based and combat being real time. Like an ancient leader on the battlefield; in this case he may be on site personally, or via a clone or android, or via other technological or psycic sensory.

That screenshot of the fighter and capital ship battle with all the little explosions is wonderful.
The ground battle art looks a little rough. I'm assuming that these are prototype screenshots.
What are the little orange puffs around the star in the other shot? Aftermath of a supernova?

What do you think of the user interface? I think that the mini map should be the same height as the rest of the panel so that the game screen will resemble a movie screen.

I particularly like the ship designer appearence. It has upper, middle, and lower decks. I wonder if Malfador still has time to make it to where we can grab, rotate, and flip the model. Also possibly zoom in.

If customized ship sets are so popular for SE4 then maybe have a ship set creator as part of the in game for SE5.
Or, even better,we pick a basic shape: pyrimid, cube, sphere \ we stretch and shape it : triangular, rectangular, tubular, etc. \ we add a "hull material texture" and colors : smooth, moderate, rough: metal, ceramic, biological, crystal, energy etc.: glossy, glowing, moderate, dark, etc. \ we add hull "items" and customization: engine nacelles, wings, command bridge structure, etc. \ we add the components \ Complete .

Would these humble opinion concepts be do-able in the current progress of Space Empires 5?...Probably not.

-Wade

[Randallw]

I for one have already stopped taking on new SE4 games so that my current ones will die out once I start se5. I know SE5 will have elements from SE3, which I have not played, so I don't know for absolute if I will like it better or worse than SE4, though I believe I should make a complete change to SE5.

I don't know much about having different decks, unless you are refering to the Starfury model with inner and outer hull.

I don't think there is much chance of an adition allowing ship modelling. To my knowledge there is a lot of debate on SpaceEmpires about what packages to use to make the new models, and although those subject to the NDA can't say one way or the other I doubt they would be going along with the debate if they already knew it had a modeller.

[Wade]

[quote]
I don't know much about having different decks, unless you are refering to the Starfury model with inner and outer hull.[\quote]

I'm reffering to this shot Post#http://www.malfador.com/SE5scr012.htm (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=http://www.malfador.com/SE5scr012.htm) at Post#http://www.malfador.com/ (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=http://www.malfador.com/)

[Edit] It seems that I did not quote properly and my links are not...linking.

-Wade

[Randallw]

http://www.malfador.com/SE5scr012.htm

I never noticed that before. Interesting. I suppose the combat system has some way of determining which deck takes damage.

What I noticed only recently was the ability to determine the atmosphere of planets. You could have nitrogen, or argon or other breathers.

[Raapys]

I'm not really sure I like the new GUI. Think I prefer the SE4 one, for various reasons. Other than that, the pictures doesn't tell me so much, as I really just care about gameplay improvements, not graphical ones.

Oh, actually I like parts of the GUI, just not the buttons in the main system view and the 'unit-buttons'.

[LordAxel]

Its kind of funny bc this was the discusion right before se4 came and was ultimately one of many things that killed the se ladder. For a long time alot of people prefered se3 but most people gave in and some didnt.

[Suicide Junkie]

This case is different though. Three big points:
- SE3 had a weakness in the multiplayer. SE4 does not; PBW and simultaneous turns.
- SE3 was not seriously moddable. SE4 is. SE4 has a huge base of quality mods, imagepacks, the TDM AIs, and more. SE5 is currently barren, and will be barren for a significant time after release while people figure things out and work on their mods.
- SE3 and SE4 will both run great on any system which runs win95 or higher. Nobody needs to spend a dime on hardware to run those two smooth as silk.


On a completely unrelated topic:
- Carrier Free Battles mod #2 is open on PBW; 4 players already in, join the fun!
- Lord of the Rings is also very recently opened; 2 players so far.

[Renegade 13]

I for one will continue playing SEIV once SEV is out. After all, just because SE5 is out it doesn't in any way diminish what SEIV is. I'll switch mostly to 5, but I'll continue playing 4 as well; just like I play some games of 3 even today.

[capnq]

SE3 and SE4 will both run great on any system which runs win95 or higher. Nobody needs to spend a dime on hardware to run those two smooth as silk.

SE5 is one of the games that will help set the minimum specs for my next system. I have no projected date for when I might be able to afford a new machine, so I will be sticking with SE4 for the foreseeable future.

[Kamog]

Well, I might play SEIV from time to time, but I would probably play it way less than now, after getting SEV. I have only played a few games of SEIII after getting SEIV because it's just not the same anymore after getting used to something that has many improvements and new features.

[Black_Knyght]

Personally. I have no intention of just quitting SE-IV and diving headlong into SE-V.

I actually enjoy SE-IV. It's a great game, and the freedom to modify nearly every aspect of it is what caight, and kept, my attention.

For me, it's actually disappointing that so many people will simply just drop it because something new comes along. New may be different, but it's not always better.

[Randallw]

Well I've never given much thought to the differences between SE4 and 5, though reading this has caused me to consider them. I have been going by the assumption that SE5 would be the same as 4 except with better graphics, so on that basis I was quite willing to stop playing SE4.

[Raapys]

Humm, I had the impression that SEV would *be* SEIV with SE3 research, new design system & 3D graphics, but otherwise just improvements in all areas? At least that's what I hoped it would be, even though I think doing 3D is a waste of resources( why fix what's not broken?).

[Cipher7071]

As a player in what I believe was the last SEIV version 1.49 game, I can say that I won't be one to quickly abandon version 1.94. It's kind of like what happens with Windows. Microsoft puts out a new O.S. and before you know it you start having trouble getting programs for the older versions. 1.49 died for lack of players. 1.94 fixed some bugs, but is far from bug-free. I just hope that SEV isn't rushed into production before it's truly ready.

[Archonsod]

I'll wait for the demo I think.

To be honest it's the real time combat that puts me off. I actually like the turn based combat, it just seems to give a far more strategic game.

I have to admit to being rather cynical about a series switching to rts style combats after Master of Orion 3.

[Fyron]

Its nothing like MOO3.

[Major_SNAFU]

Are we still going to have a choice wether to fight via the RTS or to have the computer resolve the battles automatically?

If we have to fight every battle by hand, this may put me off as well.

If you have ever played Shogun or Medieval Total War, then you will see a similarity in the concept of strategy is turn-based and combat is RTS. But with those games you could allow the computer to resolve the combat without having to fight all of the battles.

So this is my major concern with the nes ship-battles

[Raapys]

I believe the auto-resolve choice is definitely there. Wasn't there also supposed to be some sort of semi turn-based combat?

[Captain Kwok]

Tactical combat mode is by default "auto-resolve". Depending on your desired level of interaction, you can do lots of different things. If you just want to watch, let the time run. If you want to simulate turn-based combat set the default stops to like 1 or 2 seconds etc. If you'd like to control just one ship at real-time during the combat you can do that too. It's really up to you.

Simultaneous combat is just like in SE:IV, you watch the dots on screen and see the results after combat.

[Archonsod]

Ah, so its more like a stopwatch type system than an rts style combat?

My main problem with rts combat in a game with ship building is down to the AI. You spend hours kitting out a ship with top class technology and nifty abilities, only to watch it ignore them all in favour of charging towards the enemy firing. The only alternative is to micromanage one ship and watch the rest of the fleet suffer. If you can set it to autopause (or just pause when you need to) it should help.

Still going to wait for the demo though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Captain Kwok]

You can have task forces within fleets so that can help improve the application of strategies to large groups of ships within a fleet.

You can also customize strategies for each class of ship as well.

[Wade]

I think most everyone is gonna greatly appreciate the 3d graphics and real time battles; even the current critics. I believe SE5 will retain much of the SE4 aspects as well.
We are gonna be in heaven. Hehe.

Master of Orion 3 had some good aspects but it was rushed and incomplete. I believe that Malfador is taking great precautions to avoid Infrogrames mistakes. Thus the pushed back dates of release.

-Wade

[Atrocities]

seiv will be played long into the future in my honest opinion. I know that the game offers a tremendous on going addictive type of play that I believe many will keep playing, or come back too. SEIV is like an old pair of jeans, you might go out and buy new jeans but nothing compares to the fit and feel of those old jeans.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Especially after they get rips in the knees and you turn them into a pair of shorts. Totally comfortable, if they survive that long.

[Black_Knyght]

Atrocities said:
seiv will be played long into the future in my honest opinion. I know that the game offers a tremendous on going addictive type of play that I believe many will keep playing, or come back too. SEIV is like an old pair of jeans, you might go out and buy new jeans but nothing compares to the fit and feel of those old jeans.



Hell yeah !!! I second that motion....

[Raapys]

Atrocities said:
seiv will be played long into the future in my honest opinion. I know that the game offers a tremendous on going addictive type of play that I believe many will keep playing, or come back too.


I thought that was what we were getting with SEV: More of the same?

[Atrocities]

SE V, by the looks of the information that is already out about that game, appears to be a simular game, but very differant in many regards.

[AAshbery76]

Lets be real.SEIV will be dead for the majority when SEV is out.

[Raging Deadstar]

Atrocities said:
SE V, by the looks of the information that is already out about that game, appears to be a simular game, but very differant in many regards.



Wow, That NDA really makes people talk like Politicians http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[capnq]

AAshbery76 said:Lets be real.SEIV will be dead for the majority when SEV is out.

So what?

Many people moving on to an improved SE V will merely make it harder to find multiplayer opponents for SE IV. It won't diminish the joys of single player and modding.

If we cared about majority opinion, we wouldn't play TBS games.

[Combat Wombat]

I predict many more years of life left in se4 even after se5 is released.

[Artaud]

Black_Knyght said:
Personally. I have no intention of just quitting SE-IV and diving headlong into SE-V.

I actually enjoy SE-IV. It's a great game, and the freedom to modify nearly every aspect of it is what caight, and kept, my attention.

For me, it's actually disappointing that so many people will simply just drop it because something new comes along. New may be different, but it's not always better.



I agree with you. I intend to go on playing SE4. I will buy SE5, but whether or not I'll like it will be determined by the gameplay. Higher end graphics don't impress me. I want to know if it's a more enjoyable game.

There are some games where I just prefer the older version. I like Railroad Tycoon II so much I never even considered getting Railroad Tycoon III. After reading comments about how RRT3 differs from RRT2, I will probably never buy the newer version.

I love Doom 2, but find Doom 3 unplayable.

I prefer OOTP Baseball 5 over OOTP Baseball 6.

And anyway, do we know for sure when SE5 will be released?

[Raapys]

There's many game series where the older games are better than the new ones, but I thought the whole idea with SEV was that we'd get basically SEIV with more features and options, not something *new*. I'm with the "don't care about graphics" crowd, but I was sure SEV would be a big improvement on the gameplay and modding front as well, yet there seems to be a notable lack of enthusiasm about it, I'd say.

[Phoenix-D]

Mainly because we don't know what's changed. The ship design system is new, the research is SEIII style..other than that, who knows.

We do know the moddng has been opened up somewhat, which will cause much joy a couple months after release.

[Renegade 13]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif No one can be overly enthusiastic, since no one other than the beta testers knows what's coming! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And we can't tell, for fear of breaching the NDA all beta testers had to sign.

[Artaud]

Quite true.

One thing most of us will agree on is that SE5 has some very large shoes to fill. IMHO the idea that SE5 will be so great it will make us set aside SE4 is almost too much to hope for.

We shall see.

I have seen some of the screen shots. They look quite nice.

[PvK]

I'll get SE5 and be interested to see how it turns out. I'll be continuing to play SE4 though, especially my Proportions Mod PBW games.

Some considerations:
* The SE5 graphics aren't a feature I care much about.
* I wasn't entirely happy with SE4 until the Gold version came out.
* I wasn't really happy with the way Starfury ended up.

[Black_Knyght]

One thing that bugs me is the shift in graphics format. I already liked the way SE4 works, and the ability to add new graphics to it at will was a <font color="gold">HUGE</font> factor in my enjoying it.

From everything I've seen the shift in graphics is more show than go. Add to that the new issue of a more complicated image system and the increased difficulty in making new shipsets for it, and I doubt I'll even bother with it. Improvements could've been made to SE4 without changing it's entire format.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Fyron]

That's only an issue if you do not make shipsets with 3d models. Most SE4 shipset authors use 3d modeling programs anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. Atrocities might have Doga troubles, but he will adapt.

[Black_Knyght]

Imperator Fyron said:
That's only an issue if you do not make shipsets with 3d models. Most SE4 shipset authors use 3d modeling programs anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. Atrocities might have Doga troubles, but he will adapt.



While <font color="red">AT</font>is certainly the best, he isn't the only DoGA user around. I've noticed that there are a lot of other sets with DoGA. I evenhave a few sets I've made and won't be able to translate over.

But above and beyond that, I'm simply not interested in "adapting" just because a newer version of the game comes out.

There are a number of games out already that have 3D models &amp; graphics far superior to anything I've seen so far with SE5. If that was all I cared about, I wouldn't have bothered with SE4. It was the ability to readily "make it mine", mod or add to it, that I liked. You could play the game and add to it what you wanted, and you didn't need to be a computer or graphics whiz to do it.

[Suicide Junkie]

Atrocities? Troubles??? *Might*?!

I can see it now; error beeps tip the neighbour over the edge; she goes postal, and knocks down a couple of poor Atro's outer walls. Atrocities will get screwed by the insurance company too, and have to pay for his repairs out of pocket.

[Artaud]

I just hope SE5 is not a dumbed down version of the game we know and love.

I rather like having control over most aspects of my empire. What some people call too much micromanagement is what I call fun.

[StarShadow]

Personally, I don't have high hopes for SE:V. I can't stand the research model, and I don't like the StarFury component placement. I'll give the demo a try, but I doubt I'll buy/play the full game.

[Atrocities]

The game is being shipped with some of the best anti-pirating software known to exsist. Code named: open source to confuse would be pirates. Should be interesting too see how people who won't buy the game aquire it. Not that any one here would ever do such a dispicable thing.

[Captain Kwok]

StarShadow said:
Personally, I don't have high hopes for SE:V. I can't stand the research model, and I don't like the StarFury component placement. I'll give the demo a try, but I doubt I'll buy/play the full game.

What's wrong with the research style? You can set the percentages up to simulate SE:III style or SE:IV style if you'd like that better... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[StarShadow]

Well, if it can be set to do SE4 style research, I'd like that. Although I still don't care for the StarFury style component placement.

[Dejavuproned]

I dont really get what all the skeptisism is all about??? From everything that ive seen SEV is what SEIV is but better. They've listened to fans request, SEIII research is back, better ground combat, and IMO better space combat. Really why cant you have your graphics and gameplay too? I cant wait to watch those battles unfold in realtime combat while still having the flexibility to pause and issue commands!!! Imagin a startrek mod with the new engine! That would be something, assuming Atrocities will port his mod to SEV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I love SEIV but theres nothing wrong with having a more immersive glaxy to play in!!!

Just my 2 C

[Phoenix-D]

StarShadow said:
Well, if it can be set to do SE4 style research, I'd like that. Although I still don't care for the StarFury style component placement.



That's easy. Just set research to 100% and bam, SE4 style research. If you're one of those weird people (;)) that use "distribute points evenly" just..do just that to all the projects you wish.

[Suicide Junkie]

The bonus with SE3 style, is that points spill over into the next level of a tech.

For example, if you take your starting 100k points, and put 100% into ship construction which costs 20k, then you get 3 or 4 levels out of that first blast of research (depending on how fast tech costs go up).

[Hugh Manatee]

Have they said what the production ques will be like? As much as I like SE4 I always thought the prior shipyard system was better, where you have 2 separate queue for ships and planetary stuff and fighers with shipyards repairing the stuff on them once the ships were built. Meant faster fleet production.

[Captain Kwok]

Production is like SE:IV but you can construct multiple items per turn for any item.

[Roanon]

I have stopped playing SE4 some time ago, not enough time being one but not the sole reason. I will give SE5 a try, definitely. I still have doubts that I will start playing SE again with the new version, though. From the screenshots on the Malfador webside, eye candy seems to have the biggest part in the new design. Seems to be the new design style: take an old game, make it simpler and worse, add eye candy and fancy 3D graphics. A concept that fails every time I have seen it. I hope Aaron doesn't get too carried away with graphic design. A screen with 90% graphics and 10% boxed in a corner with a tiny part of the total data, forcing me to make my own spreadsheet in order to have a minimal overview over the game - I don't have time or fun to do this any more.

As also mentioned by others, real-time is an issue. It ticks me off every time I read it. If I want to play a game where the number of mouseclicks per second is the most important factor, I would go and play Unreal or whatever, not a so called real-time "strategy" game. It seems to be there is no forced realtime aspect in SE5, but I still fear - it's a crazy idea to introduce realtime in a strategy game in the first place, and with crazy designers you never know what happens...

MOO3, the biggest failure ever - I hope Aaron doesn't try to use parts of its design in order to prove there is a viable game behind it. Games where 90% of my efforts are directed to prevent the "helpful" stupid AI to ruin my empire are not my idea of fun. I don't mind management even if it means micromanagement. They way to reduce micromanagement is macromanagement and scripting, not artificial stupidity ruining the game if allowed to.

I do hope the testers do their job properly. Which is difficult if you hire dedictated fans to test your game. The proper testing is not seeing a new feature, getting all exited about how wonderful it is, and using it every way the designer intended to admire it even more - even if this is what I too whould probably do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif . A proper tester must have the will to BREAK every feature, trying not to use but to EXPLOIT every rule in ways never intended by the designer - this is the only way to find loopholes that may otherwise ruin the game when hitting a market full of merciless players after release. I would recommend a second beta phase with more testers, especially players being totally new to SE if possible.

All in all I have mixed feelings and it seems to be very unpredictable what will finally emerge. I hope the lack of informations about SE5 does not mean the designer expects disappointment and disapproval, and tries to hide to avoid the heat.

[dogscoff]

Where has this myth come from about se5 having realtime combat?

Everyone listen carefully:

SE5 DOES NOT HAVE REAL TIME COMBAT.
It will be turn-based combat, just like se4. Prettier, yes, but otherwise no different to se4. Definitely not realtime.

Are we clear on that? I mean it's been stated half a dozen times in this very thread already but the message doesn't seem to be sinking in. Should we get it added to the thread title?

The next person who breezes in here whining about non-existant realtime combat is gonna get a swift kick in the combat simulator.

[Kamog]

Um, Malfador's site lists "Detailed Real-Time Tactical Space Combat" under the features for SEV...

[Roanon]

dogscoff said:
SE5 DOES NOT HAVE REAL TIME COMBAT.




I'll fully believe it as soon as you convince Aaron to scratch it out of his official feature list of SE:V on malfador.com. Till then, I'm still in doubt.

[Captain Kwok]

*sigh*

Space Empires 5 does have tactical real-time combat.

However, there are lots of options available so that a player may execute the combat in any way they want. This includes automatic pausing, which allows for a fair simulation of the turn-based tactical combat in SE:IV with the exception that the ships execute their orders concurrently.

[Aiken]

I only care about freedom of modding in se5. AI scripts is an improvement which I'm waiting for.
The more you can change, the better game's potential.
And I've already abandoned se4, it has nothing to offer to gamer and modder already. It has no tools to change an inner game mechanics and different mods add only a little variety. It was a great time playin' se4, but something new shall appear.

[Captain Kwok]

There is twice as many data files in SE:V than SE:IV. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Ed Kolis]

Would you be at liberty to name a few of the new ones, just as a teaser? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[StarShadow]

Ack! If that's what combat is going to be like, then the chance of me liking SE:V just dropped to 15-20%, real-time anything does not belong in a TBS game, regardless of what it can kinda, sorta emulate. I'm definately with Roanon when it comes to graphics, too many games lately are graphics heavy/gameplay lite. Most of the games I play are old games, such as Alpha Centauri (I can barely stand Civ4). I'll give the demo a try, but I'll likely be going right back to SE4.

[Captain Kwok]

*sigh x 2*

We've been over this ground so many times. The tactical combat in SE:V is Inherently more fair than the old tactical system in SE:IV. No more first shot advantage and other sorts of silliness that drove people crazy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

And for the record, the gameplay actually has significantly more depth than SE:IV and hasn't been "simplified" for the masses, so no need to worry.

[Suicide Junkie]

I think the RTS style button/map/unit-info layout may be melting people's brains, CK.

***COMBAT IS NOT A CRAPPY RTS STYLE CLICKFEST***
Besides, it not like you get to manually control your forces in multiplayer games anyways.

[Fyron]

SE5 combat is much better than SE4. It is fallacious to call it "real time combat" because of all the Starcraft/Command and Conquer baggage that label brings along. It is absolutely nothing like those games. I'd certainly not be testing the game still if the combat was anything like those games.

SE4 combat sucks, terribly. There is not even an inkling of a basic initiative system as in games like MOO2 (1.31 patch). Both sides just line up and shoot, one at a time, everything on one side, in some gross Napoleonic system of warfare. Sure you can play with maximum ranges and such, but those just drag forth the other glaring issues of a basic turn based system. There is actually very little strategy involved in the SE4 combat model (other than exploiting AI weaknesses in single player).

Especially in the stock game, SE4 combat tends to be winner take all (past the pointless early game battles of 3 ships against 3 ships), because the more powerful side can deal out tremendous damage before the enemy has a chance to fire back, each round. This is totally imbalancing and nonsensical. Some mods try to get around the horrid limitiations of the combat engine by overpowering defenses so that ships survive multiple rounds of fire, but this can only go so far. With a good initiative system, you can get situations where ships on each side move and fire at each other back and forth, avoiding the one side moves entirely crap that so weakens SE4. SE5 does exactly this, but smooths out the initiative system infinitely. It is not a matter of just trying to make the combat glitzy, it is a concerted effort to make it better, to make it balanced and sensical. Playing with it in tactical mode is certainly not a click-fest/button-mash like Starcraft/C&amp;C type games.

The auto-pause feature is the real clincher... It turns the combat into a simultaneous execution system with perfect initiative. There is no silliness with ships moving in, firing, and moving out before the enemy can react as in a primitive model like SE4; it all happens in a better, more fluid environment. No more missile dancing! There have been games that seek to put into place complex initiative systems to approximate realistic action, where ships do part of their actions for a turn in phases. While this does generally make the combat engine more balanced and sensical, it does create horribly complex, anti-fun rulesets that get in the way of playing the game. A continuous time model achieves the same goal, though to an even greater degree, without the madness.

It is still a deep TBS game, just with a better engine for combat execution. The ships are just as complex as SE4; their interactions in combat are governed by similar horribly (beautifully?) complex rules. There is no RTS style oversimplification of unit stats into attack, defense and hitpoints, no horribly frantic pacing (though you could probably create it if you ramp up weapon damage...). I can't really go into detail due to the NDA, however.

"If I want to play a game where the number of mouseclicks per second"

Number of mouse clicks is not even a relevant complaint when you can pause the combat and issue whatever orders you like... Click-festing can only be an issue if you refuse to use the pause hotkey and the auto-pause feature.

And it is absolutely nothing like MOO3, in any regard. Why do you think Aaron Hall would be so inept as to follow in MOO3's footsteps?

Remember, "real time" does NOT mean click fest. It does NOT mean "like a RTS game." RTSes are only click fests because the game engine is made to be click festing. SE5 is not made to be click festing.

(I wonder how many more times I will need to make this argument... at least the 6th time in the last few years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

=0=


Roanon said:
I do hope the testers do their job properly... I would recommend a second beta phase with more testers, especially players being totally new to SE if possible.

I'm fairly offended by this whole paragraph, as I imagine most of the other beta testers are as well. I don't know what rabid fanbois you think are running around merely gawking at new features, but I assure you there are none in the beta tester group.

[Roanon]

Ohh - careful. Judging the depth of a game is the most difficult thing at all. More options just don't make a better or more complex game. If an optimal strategy can be found, trivializing all choices, forcing one option making all others game looser choices (why does SE4 race design come to my mind?), there is actually more triviality not less.

No more heavy first shoot advantage, that is good news. How is it done? All shots simultaneously? Random ship-by-ship? Or is it planable, like smaller ships move and shoot first, or are there technologies that enable faster shooting? This truly would be great and add a whole new feature of tactics.

Another annoying thing in SE4 is the build queue mechanic, does SE5 finally spill over construction points from one build into the next ?? Would be great too ! Much unnecessary micromanagement comes from that, and there is really no technical or logical reason for this silly program behaviour.

[Roanon]

Imperator Fyron said:I'm fairly offended by this whole paragraph, as I imagine most of the other beta testers are as well. I don't know what rabid fanbois you think are running around merely gawking at new features, but I assure you there are none in the beta tester group.



I'm really sorry, I didn't want to offend you or anyone of the other testers, I apologize if you feel offended. I am sure you are doing the best that you can, I think I couldn't do better, knowing SE4 and the basic game structure too.

But I know from program testing, any one too deeply involved, having too much knowledge from a prior version, tends to test in a specific, often developer-influenced direction. Without wanting it, even without noticing it. Someone totally new to the game would have a totally different approach, trying things that might be ridiculous and senseless most of the time, but uncover hidden loopholes sometimes too.

[Suicide Junkie]

Consider the effect in starfury.

While your bullets are on their way towards the enemy, the enemy can be firing energy bolts back, and the shots cross in the middle. Two ships with equal weapons range will both fire, and both hit. Two direct fire ships in combat can potentially both die, leaving no survivors.

Naturally, projectile speed is a somewhat important feature of a weapon, since if your shots go faster, they hit earlier, and the enemy weapons get damaged earlier.

A nifty weapon might even be a gun that does Huge damage, but the bullets it fires travel slower than most ships. So it only works when the enemy is charging towards you.

[Dejavuproned]

From what I understand combat will be simultaneous, all sides involved will carry out their orders at the same time.

I know alot of people here seem to feel that graphics = less gameplay/detail. But thats not the case here, the graphics was not only a good upgrade but a needed one, Aaron would not beable to sell a game that looked and felt like SE4 with a few new features. Just like SE4 was a big visual improvment over SE3, SE5 will follow the same steps, just the order of things. But the game itself will be superior to SE4 with the combat being far superior, I always really disliked the first shot adv in SE4. Im sorry but you just cant sell games with SE3 or even SE4 graphics these days unless its a free open sourced game over the net (which isent even selling technically). One of the biggest knocks in reviews for SE4 was the fact that nothing about it was animated, all gifs and whatnot, lessening the immersiveness of the galaxy in the game, I agree somewhat with that, and it looks like SE5 will give you much more of a feeling of immersiveness and roleplaying potential then SE4 could. And lets be realistic, SE5 isent gonna do much to stress most people graphics cards, as even its graphics are quite dated.

my only knock on SE5 is it isnt coming out fast enough, grr!

[Raapys]

I'd buy it if it looked like SEIV. In fact, I'd be more optimistic about it then, because I'd know that the *one* programmer that is working on the game would spend all his time on gameplay, instead of making a new graphics and combat engine. In fact, when new games today brag about good graphics I'm immediately put off. Also, a graphics engine change in a sequel is just about always accompanied by a worsening of the gameplay because of limits in the new engine, time constraints, longer and more expensivedevelopment time on textures/models, etc. In short, gameplay elements are very often sacrificed for some bells and make-up.

In the case of SEV, though, I'm inclined to trust the beta testers on the point that it's 'deeper' than SEIV and not simplified. Mostly because it's the same guy who has provided us with all these games, and I doubt he suddenly just lost his touch and taste about what makes a great game of this type.

[Fyron]

"I'm really sorry, I didn't want to offend you or anyone of the other testers, I apologize if you feel offended. I am sure you are doing the best that you can, I think I couldn't do better, knowing SE4 and the basic game structure too."

No worries; I probably overreacted anyways.

"Another annoying thing in SE4 is the build queue mechanic, does SE5 finally spill over construction points from one build into the next ??"

I'll just refer to Kwok's post:
Production is like SE:IV but you can construct multiple items per turn for any item.

[Roanon]

"I'll just refer to Kwok's post:
Production is like SE:IV but you can construct multiple items per turn for any item. "

Maybe I have misunderstood this - sounded to me like you can construct X ships of one specific sort, like you can do with units in SE4. But it still is unclear to me: do you still have to construct ships in a way to be as close as possible to a multiple of your construction/turn? In other words, if ship A finishes, do construction points spill over to ship B or is any leftover wasted, like now in SE4?

[Hugh Manatee]

I just don't get whats so freaking complicated about the concept of time stopping, you issuing orders, hitting the "unpause" or End turn button or whatever it will be called and watch your ships do what you just ordered, then time stops again and you have as much time as you want to consider your next moves and issue them..... Also who plays tactical mode unless you're in a hotseat scenario... the last time I played tactical mode was in SE3, when the strategic came along I never had to move and issue firing orders to a fleet of 200 ships individually again....

Ever play birth of the federation? I immagine something like that but with much much more detail. In BotF at the beginning of each turn you pick comands for your ships depending on what the are and then hit end turn and they do it in real time.

[Kana]

Ill be happy if the SE3 convention of ordering, paying for the ship, and then having it sit next to the planet while all of the components are being constructed on.

That way said ships can be attacked, possibly move, or fight back, depending on components successfully installed.

[StarShadow]

This probably falls more into the category of wishlist item, but I'd really like to see an option to have the system-view in SE4 style. I wouldn't even mind a galciv type view, but I really don't like the starfury type view.

[zircher]

Black_Knyght said:

While AT is certainly the best, he isn't the only DoGA user around. I've noticed that there are a lot of other sets with DoGA. I even have a few sets I've made and won't be able to translate over.




If you have not seen these links, they might help to show how DoGA and Metasequoia can be used together to make 3d meshes for games like Star Fury and SEV.

http://www.virmin.com/doga/design_1.htm
http://www.virmin.com/doga/design_2.htm
http://www.virmin.com/doga/design_3.htm

With a little practice, it becomes a failr simple operation.
--
TAZ

[Phoenix-D]

Simple yes. Speedy..not really. DOGA meshes tend to have absolutely ridiclous polygon counts. That's fine for a render, but it'll turn any real-time display into mush.

[Captain Kwok]

Starshadow:

There is a top-down view for SE:V that's like SE:IV. I use it myself most of the time.

[Cipher7071]

One of the things I've always appreciated about SEIV is that it doesn't sacrifice game-play to graphics. I can't argue with fancier graphics so long as that doesn't happen, and I don't need to replace hardware.

I'm happy with the idea that so much will cease to ride upon who gets the first shot, and something that sounds a bit closer to SEIII style building queues is welcome as well.

[Raapys]

I think that's the most important question regarding graphics, though. Is there no negative effects on gameplay at all, concerning the new graphics?

One thing I was wondering about: Will the maximum amount of ships -limit in a single battle decrease?

[Atrocities]

I think it was mentioned that more ships will effect things because of frame rates. The more ships you have, especially ones with higher polygon counts, the more the frame rate will be affected.

[Captain Kwok]

The amount of ships in a battle is not limited, but with more ships there will be a slow down due to the large amount of objects on screen to render. However, this is not much different than if you were doing tactical combat with large numbers of ships in SE:IV with movement/weapon animation on.

[Renegade 13]

Also it shouldn't have much of an effect of strategic combat, only a bit of one on tactical.

[Captain Kwok]

Renegade 13 said:
Also it shouldn't have much of an effect of strategic combat, only a bit of one on tactical.

It won't have any effect on strategic combat.

[Captain Kwok]

I've posted some SE:V screenshots at my website here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/feature-se5screenshots.php

Enjoy.

[Dejavuproned]

Captain Kwok said:
I've posted some SE:V screenshots at my website here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/feature-se5screenshots.php

Enjoy.



Looks like stuff like hull/armor/shields/supplies have pretty insane numbers. 4000 shields for a cruiser 200 for a small fighter? wow...

Really nice screens BTW, makes me even more impatient for the game to come out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Edit- I noticed one of the screens seems to have a SEIV ship design system, rather then the Starfury style one??

[Captain Kwok]

The game was at max tech so the numbers for everything are weird. For the ship design, the summary is a la SE:IV.

[PvK]

I noticed the "Intrepid" cruiser design shown seemed to be rated 1000 kT, and the components and armor seemed to add up to more than that.

[Captain Kwok]

PvK said:
I noticed the "Intrepid" cruiser design shown seemed to be rated 1000 kT, and the components and armor seemed to add up to more than that.

Nope, they add up to 1000. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[PvK]

I see "Cruiser (1,000 kT)" in the "Size" box, and then "Hull Structure" at "6475 kT" and "Armor" at "5380 kT", which add to 11,855 kT, no?

[Wade]

PvK said:
I see "Cruiser (1,000 kT)" in the "Size" box, and then "Hull Structure" at "6475 kT" and "Armor" at "5380 kT", which add to 11,855 kT, no?



Yeah. This needs clarification on the game. I hope that there is not much questionable/ambiguous information like this throughout the game. Newbies (customers and future fans) will be even more confused.

-Wade

[Captain Kwok]

How is it different from SE:IV? A cruiser of 500kT might have much more than 500kT of structure (i.e. hitpoints right?)

[Kamog]

I'm very happy to see that the component placement slots in the ship design do not have locations that depend on the shape of the top-down ship graphic.

Thank you Beta Testers for sorting out that one! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Dejavuproned]

Kamog said:
I'm very happy to see that the component placement slots in the ship design do not have locations that depend on the shape of the top-down ship graphic.

Thank you Beta Testers for sorting out that one! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I think that this needs clarification, Kwok said that its the ship summery? So does that mean the actual design is still like starfury? Or is it back to SEIV style??

[Wade]

Dejavuproned said:

Kamog said:
I'm very happy to see that the component placement slots in the ship design do not have locations that depend on the shape of the top-down ship graphic.

Thank you Beta Testers for sorting out that one! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I think that this needs clarification, Kwok said that its the ship summery? So does that mean the actual design is still like starfury? Or is it back to SEIV style??



Clarification would help but as it stands it is just the summary and the ship design is top view ship graphic "blueprints". I rather like this top view ship design. I don't think it is limited in any way compared to SE4 style.

-Wade

[dogscoff]

Yay Kwok! THanks for the screenies, they had me drooling.

Look at all those lovely tabs in the combat strategies screen (seperate offensive/defensive formations, different formations for warp point transit.... drool)

[Wade]

I was wondering if there has been a change in SE5 in regards to exiting/closing the various windows? As it stands in SE4 we must close\close\cancel\close...etc. Keeping it like this for SE5 would be OK as long as there was a main close button. Or maybe like the internet where as we can "close" or just go "back"\back\back...and even have the little drop down list for going back.

-Wade

[Q]

Thank you very much Kwok for these informative screen shoots and thank you Malfador for allowing Kwok to post them!
The top down system screen shows overlapping with other windows that obscure parts of the system. I hope that this can be avoided, otherwise it would be very inconvient IMO.
All the rest seems very promising!

[Atrocities]

they do at that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Q said:
Thank you very much Kwok for these informative screen shoots and thank you Malfador for allowing Kwok to post them!
The top down system screen shows overlapping with other windows that obscure parts of the system. I hope that this can be avoided, otherwise it would be very inconvient IMO.
All the rest seems very promising!

The screenshots were done at 1024x768, which is the minimum resolution and they were zoomed in a bit.

There is directional damage so the slot design is the "official one" and is displayed most of the time - the screenshot I took is just the simple summary.

[Wade]

"There is directional damage..."

Cool!

Hello Kwok. How about the closing windows issue that I mentioned above?

-Wade

[Captain Kwok]

There's only a couple levels of windows.

But officially I think I've already spilled more beans than an inebriated bean counter!

[StarShadow]

Captain Kwok said:
Starshadow:

There is a top-down view for SE:V that's like SE:IV. I use it myself most of the time.



Thanks for the info, that's good to know!

[Baron Munchausen]

Right, as with SE IV armor has much higher 'damage' tonnage than 'weight' tonnage. Mounts also give weapons higher 'damage' tonnage than 'weight' tonnage.

[Wade]

Captain Kwok said:
There's only a couple levels of windows.

But officially I think I've already spilled more beans than an inebriated bean counter!



I'm making chilli. Are there more beans that you could spill...officially that is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

-Wade