SEV shipset instructions?

[henk brouwer]

The SEV release date is almost upon us, and this brings back memories from the days just before the release of it's predecessor SEIV.

Back then, several months before the release of SEIV, malfador posted a website with detailed info on how to build seIV shipsets,It can still be found at http://www.malfador.com/se4race.html

I was wondering wether it would be possible to post similar instructions for SEV shipsets, I already found some info about the filetypes and how to model ships ( http://www.spaceempires.net/home/ftopict-641.html ) what I'm looking for is an overview of all the shiptypes that a shipset needs to have, and info on other pictures like the raceportrait (what size is it, and what filetype, etc)
Also information about the amount of polygons recommended for each shiptype would be usefull (I guess fighters should have far les than normal ships, or bases)

With seIV the early release of shipset building instructions really paid of, a couple of shipsets were completed as soon as the game was available (the first versions of the taera, united flora and pyrochette among others if I recall correctly) from a marketing point of view it's a good thing to have new content come out as soon as possible. And more importantly it would give us something to pass the time with untill the game is out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Suicide Junkie]

If you make your models work in starfury, you'll be most of the way there...

And I'm not a modeller, but if you look at the screenshots already posted, that should give you an idea of the kind of scale you'll be looking at.

[Ed Kolis]

I emailed Aaron about this very question a few days ago, remembering a news post on SEnet saying the shipset specs should be released in July, and he said he'd have them out sometime this coming week! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Xrati]

I guess the BIG question is will the DoGA files work in the new system and will they be able to be converted if not? A lot of the people on this site use DoGA and it would be a shame to loose all the current models out there that are already done and would be ready for use in SEV.

[Captain Kwok]

Doga can export to directX format (.x) but the models tend to be high in terms of polygons, which usually requires that they be optimized in another program prior to being important into SE5.

[henk brouwer]

Ed Kolis said:
I emailed Aaron about this very question a few days ago, remembering a news post on SEnet saying the shipset specs should be released in July, and he said he'd have them out sometime this coming week! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



Ah, good news.

Also after some headbanging and frustration I finally got a working shipmodel into the starfury demo. (I thought I had everything set up the way I should, but no ship showed up when I started starfury, After trying everything possible I found out that the ship was scaled too small by a factor of thousand or more and had been on screen all the time as a tiny pixel.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif.)

Anyhow here is a screenshot, 212 polygons, mainly an experiment in uvmapping and texturing, modelled in blender, texture made with The Gimp.
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/3574/testflightsv2.th.jpg (http://img400.imageshack.us/my.php?image=testflightsv2.jpg)

[Ed Kolis]

Nice ship! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
What kind of ship is it anyway?

[henk brouwer]

I don't know yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif, suggestions?

[Xrati]

The pixel that roared!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Ed Kolis]

Looks like some sort of transport...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Xrati said:
The pixel that roared!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


Seconded.

[Baron Munchausen]

It looks rather similar to the ship from 'Firefly' so yes, a transport. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Caduceus]

Small transport.

[henk brouwer]

Xrati said:
The pixel that roared!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I could claim it's a shipset for a race of intelligent bacteria, that would explain the size difference..

Thanks for the comments, I'll think I'll make the ship a transport or carrier.

[Xrati]

Ah! Yes, bacteria with very LARGE weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

It make my armor creek...

[henk brouwer]

Ed Kolis said:
I emailed Aaron about this very question a few days ago, remembering a news post on SEnet saying the shipset specs should be released in July, and he said he'd have them out sometime this coming week! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



Hmm. No news yet.
Or maybe there is: I visited the good old universal shipyards earlier today and found this amazing shipset preview by John Beech:
http://mkv25.net/USy/se5.php
Not only is this a truely amazing shipset, it also gives some clues to relative sizes between ships and the different models that a shipset needs

We'll have to take into account that this was posted somewhere in 2005, and since SeV has been in development for quite some time since it's probably outdated and likely inaccurate and incomplete. But John Beech is on the development team if I recall corectly, and he comments that it's the "full sitting fleet of models". Anyhow it's probably the best information we have, if we can guess what type of ship each model represents..
The set has less ships than standard SEIV shipsets, but if i recall correctly shipsets were going to be smaller for SEV.

[Xrati]

Tylmai ship set (http://mkv25.net/USy/tylmai_se5/)

Here's another link you may want to look at.

[Caduceus]

Great link Xrati. Very fun to look at.

[Captain Kwok]

The models you'll need for stock:

Ships:
Frigate - Destroyer - Light Cruiser - Cruiser - Battleship - Dreadnought - Baseship* - Carrier**

Colony Ship - Freighter**

Bases:
Space Station - Starbase

Units:
Fighter** - Troop** - Satellite** - Weapons Platfrom** - Mine** - Drone**

* - Uses starbase image if baseship image not available
** - Come in S/M/L sizes, but vehicle is scaled if specific S/M/L not available

You'll need several colour portraits (small, large) and a top-down b&w image for the slot layouts. You'll also need to make slot layouts for your ships as well, like in Star Fury. Lastly, you need flag/shield race images, race and population portraits, and some mini ship icons for lists etc. I can't recall all the dimensions off-hand, sorry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I should also mentioned they are specific Organic or Crystalline versions for all the ships/vehicles listed below. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Hey, he cut the Battlecruisers! Blah. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Hopefully the slot adding process is easier than in Starfury, or SJ gets a new version of the Slotmodder out.

[Ed Kolis]

Thanks Kwok! I guess we can at least start making some 3D models and do the renders later once we find out what's needed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
BTW, could you tell us what kind of texturing SE5 supports? I know Starfury only let you have plain old diffuse textures, but will SE5 let you use bumpmaps, emissive (glow) maps, HLSL (High Level Shader Language, used for procedural textures), or whatnot? Since it's upgraded from DirectX 7 to DirectX 8, I'm kinda hoping there might be support for some of those http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Will any race use both normal ships and organic or crystalline ships, or are they more like the "paradigms" in Adamant where each race uses only one?
I'm kinda curious, too, if we do have to make the slot layouts, how are they balanced so you can't "uber up" your shipset by giving it a lot of extra slots of a particular type? Limits such as "destroyers have at most 4 armor slots"? Or was that issue never resolved? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Captain Kwok]

In terms of slots though, the stock races already come with more armor slots than are practial to fill. Also keep in mind there are only inner, outer, and armor slots - no dedicated weapon slots.

I don't think anyone has tried any advanced texturing methods. You can e-mail MM and ask though.

Now to clean up all those beans I spilled. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[henk brouwer]

Thanks kwok! That's very usefull information.

I'm going to worry about the rendered images and slot placement later, but it would be nice to know the dimensions of the race portrait, I have an unpleasant feeling that it's going to be near impossible to come up with something as good as the stock ones, but if I'm going to try I'd better start early http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Captain Kwok]

The main portrait I believe is 512x512. The stock races were hand-painted if you're looking to match the style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

How about an 'Image and 3D Model mod'?

[Captain Kwok]

There's been talk of an Image Pack for SE:V, with the exception that the SE:V pack wouldn't use copyright images - so that it could be included with future SE:V releases etc.

[Phoenix-D]

I don't think any of the component images and such are 3D, are they? So really its just the ships, planets, asteroids to worry about on that end.

[Ed Kolis]

Facilities are 3D too, or so it appears...

[Captain Kwok]

Facilities are the only other items that use actual models. Planets and asteroids etc. are just textures on generic models.

[Ed Kolis]

Drat, no square Bizarro Worlds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Well, that's how it worked in Starfury, too..but there were ways around that.

[Captain Kwok]

You could always make planets that use different shapes... it's just a matter of adding a cubed .X file.

[Kana]

Captain Kwok said:
There's been talk of an Image Pack for SE:V, with the exception that the SE:V pack wouldn't use copyright images - so that it could be included with future SE:V releases etc.



Well thats going to limit some the feel/look of some mods. Even though AT's Doga Star Trek ships are made from scratch, Paramount, would still consider it some form of intellectial property or something...if it looks like a duck, and quaks like a duck...

[Ed Kolis]

Shipsets are not part of the imagemod...

[Ed Kolis]

I just heard back from Aaron about bumpmaps, emissive maps, and HLSL. He said that the render engine is much the same as Starfury and doesn't support many of those advanced features, but that they could be added in a patch!

[Kana]

Ed Kolis said:
Shipsets are not part of the imagemod...



Yes, True...but what if I want a picture of a photon torpedo, or a transporter pad, or some other star trek device, weapon or what not?

[Captain Kwok]

That wouldn't be a problem if it was an original image. I was referring to images lifted from other games etc.

[Timstone]

Could someone (maybe Aaron of David Gervais) post a small list of what is possible with the engine of SE V?
I mean stuff like particles (how many emitters) are possible, hypervoxels, bumpmaps, what kind of lights are possible, if moveable sections are possible, etc.
And how do I control the point(s) where weapons shoot from on a model?

[Phoenix-D]

Probably the same way as in Starfury- you'll specify X/Y/Z points in text files at the shots will appear there.

Actually, grab the Starfury demo. It'll give you a good idea of what SEV will support and will let you test your models to boot.

[Timstone]

Yeah, that's a good idea.
I hope the size of the models is the same would be a pain in the rear to resize all your models.
But what about rotating/moveable sections?
Thanks for the reply Phoenix-D.

[Captain Kwok]

I know planets and such rotate in game, but I'm not sure if that's possible to do with ships.

There's scaling options available. You can also look at some of the models from Star Fury in your editor to match model scale etc.

[Caduceus]

Check at Malfador > SEV > Empire Styles for more information on ship styles.

EDIT: From www.malfador.com (http://www.malfador.com)

Empire Style Pictures: All pictures are 24bit bitmaps or 24bit JPEGs. Each ship size has 4 pictures – a 42x42 top down view, a 128x128 portrait view of the ship, a 512x512 large portrait view of the ship, and a 500x704 top down inventory view. The portraits should have the ship facing forward and skewed towards the bottom left corner of the portrait. All of the ships within a style should have a common theme. It is intended that they are all from the same race, so they should have a common color and layout.

Empire Style Models: All models are in the X file DirectX 7.0 format. Each model is accompanied by a 24bit bitmap texture. The name of the model and texture can be anything but its recommended that the filename start with the empire name.

[Phoenix-D]

What's with the multiple lines of red ** at the start of that page?

EDIT: and make sure you scroll all the way down- it has example AI data files, and the files used to define the ships in-game.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

That's a neat page.

[Q]

Very interesting indeed.
At the first look however I am a little bit scared that creating new races or modifying races may be much more complicated than in SE IV. It reminds me of Starfury where you need a large manual just to understand what the different lines in the campaign/empire files mean.

[Captain Kwok]

It will be more difficult than SE:IV to make new races, mainly because of the items connected with the ship models. Otherwise, most of the AI files are straightforward and like their SE:IV cousins.

[Xrati]

I don't care much for the "one page" format where all the images are on one big bmp/jpg file and the pics are identified by the x,y coordinates. I've tried those in the past as in 'War Engine' and it just confusing when your working in the middle of the set on a blank image. You have to set rulers and guidelines up for all your images and remember what coordinate has what pic in it. It's much easier to just have one pic for one file. OR have a program that will edit the pic files on the larger one eliminating the need to track locations.

The cruiser looks like a varient of the 'battlestar' minus the fighter bays.

[Captain Kwok]

I usual make a standalone image of the correct size and then paste into the final image. Having a template file with an appropriate grid is not a bad idea either.

[Q]

What is a .CSF file and what do you need to create/convert one??

[Captain Kwok]

Space Empires V has a script parser that creates the .csf file - which is the actual compiled script used by the game. Essentially you're just editing various AI text files and then compiling them into a .csf file.

[Q]

Thank you for the answer Kwok.
But what do you do if you want to modify an existing .csf file? Can you convert it back to a text file or do you need the original text file??
Anyway it seems to me that modifying will be more complicated compared to SE IV.

[Captain Kwok]

You cannot edit the .csf files directly. You'd need to make your changes in the base text files and re-make the .csf file.

Modding the data files themselves is probably a bit easier since it's one entry per item. Only the intelligence and events file use scripts of the non-AI files.

[Aiken]

First look at data files:
- ***_Main_Script.txt and ***_Setup_Script.txt are written in some sort of prog language (prior to be compiled into .cfs). What is this language? Looks like Delphi to me, but I'm not sure.
- Other .txt files keep following an old se4 style (no char for comments, tabs and blank line problems) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Actually Aiken you can insert comment lines into the data files. But double blank lines can still be dangerous. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Fyron]

When did SE4 have problems with tabs? You can insert tabs instead of spaces between the field labels and :=. I'm not sure why anyone would really want to, due to the funky formatting issues with tabs, but that's another issue entirely.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Captain Kwok said:
It will be more difficult than SE:IV to make new races, mainly because of the items connected with the ship models. Otherwise, most of the AI files are straightforward and like their SE:IV cousins.


This is why the SEV image mod needs to include ships.

[Captain Kwok]

Empire styles / Ship sets are already "plug-ins" so I don't see how including them in the Image Pack would make much sense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Simple - People could then 'build' shipsets easier.

[Phoenix-D]

Not really, Narf. The idea behind the image mod is to make smaller downloads and disk space use by having a common pool of images; shipsets already work like that, and nothing about the Image Mod makes building images or ships easier.

[Noble713]

After looking over the info on Malfador's site, plus trying my hand at implementing a ship into the Starfury demo, I can see how much more complex ship sets in SE5 will be. It's no longer a simple matter of cranking out 20 or so 2D images.

The biggest issue is with ship layouts. Now every shipset needs to be balanced as well. You can't have a single race running around with twice as many weapons hardpoints as everyone else, all with 360-degree fire arcs. The good news is the potential for far more flexibility and diversity in ship design. For example, one race may have layouts with a large number of slots, but they are mostly "outer hull", with very few "inner hull", making for fragile ships.

Can't wait for the SE5 demo.....

[Captain Kwok]

There are only armor, inner, and outer slots in SE:V - no weapon slots like SF, and also no weapon arcs. There's also plenty of slots so the number of them doesn't matter either. There is directional damage, but battles tend to be melees with little difference between ship sets.

[Renegade 13]

Noble713 said:
It's no longer a simple matter of cranking out 20 or so 2D images.

"Simple", of course, being a relative term http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif 51 images for a neo-standard shipset, but that's splitting hairs.

[Aiken]

Imperator Fyron said:
When did SE4 have problems with tabs? ...


Dunno, I just remember where was something wrong with tabs. I wouldn't bet on this though.
Still, where are whose "#include", "function" and other scary words came from? Which language, that's is?

[Timstone]

Kwok:
Directional damage? What do you mean by that?
I'm sure I saw fire arcs in one of those textfiles. What up with that then?

[henk brouwer]

I think the firing arcs are a graphical thing only: If your ship is firing at an enemy behind it the laserbeam will originate at the point specified by the corresponding firing arc somewhere at the back of the ship, when it is firing at an enemy in front of it, the laser beam will originate at the front of the ship.

[Captain Kwok]

Directional damage as in if the ship gets hit in the front, the forward components will get damaged and so on. Henk's assessment on the data file was correct.

[Phoenix-D]

Directional damage but unlimited firing arcs. An interesting combination.

[Kana]

So I guess there is no backward engineering on this arcs thing? I mean if we can track damage coming in, why cant we track damage going out...?

[Captain Kwok]

Introducing weapon arcs makes for a difficult balancing act among shipsets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Q]

I still don't understand how directional damage in combination with armor/outer/inner hull compartment works:
if the ship has lost all armor in the front but still has armor on the sides and rear what will be destroyed by the next hit in the front?

[Kana]

Captain Kwok said:
Introducing weapon arcs makes for a difficult balancing act among shipsets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



I guess that is a problem, if its tied into the shipsets as apposed to the components...

As for balancing...not many problems in SFB due to arcs, it just makes certain ships more interesting to battle with than others...

[Phoenix-D]

Q said:
I still don't understand how directional damage in combination with armor/outer/inner hull compartment works:
if the ship has lost all armor in the front but still has armor on the sides and rear what will be destroyed by the next hit in the front?



One of the internal components in the front, in the Outer Hull.

[Q]

Phoenix-D said:

Q said:
I still don't understand how directional damage in combination with armor/outer/inner hull compartment works:
if the ship has lost all armor in the front but still has armor on the sides and rear what will be destroyed by the next hit in the front?



One of the internal components in the front, in the Outer Hull.



Doesn't this make (strategic) combat quite unpredictable and ship design complicated?
If all enemy fire comes from one side (as often the case) your ship is soon destroyed unless the AI reacts clever enough and turns the ship around to cover the weakend side. In Starfury the AI could not handle this situation well.

[Ed Kolis]

Yeah, I was thinking that if there's no firing arcs, then why even bother with the slot-based layout and directional damage? Seems like a lot of work to put shipset designers through for little or no gain, having to design the slot layouts for all their ships... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Though, Kwok, are you *sure* there are no firing arcs? The Terran_Ships_XFileClasses.txt that Aaron posted in the shipset specs referred to them... are those lines just ignored or something?
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Number Of Firing Points := 6
Firing Point 1 X := 112.319191
Firing Point 1 Y := 413.506592
Firing Point 1 Z := 27.873138
Firing Point 1 Arc Start := 315
Firing Point 1 Arc End := 45
</pre><hr />

[Fyron]

That is purely for animations; it defines the starting point on the model for the beam/missile/whatever.

[Kana]

It may make things more complicated, but it will bring some new dimensions to the game, especially if we can convince the AI to be smart enought to realize that there is a hole in their defense that they have to protect...

[Captain Kwok]

Ships in battles with several ships will tend to be equally hit on all sides unless there is a special circumstance, ie fleeing etc.

[henk brouwer]

Work on my shipset is progressing slowly, I've got 6 models finished and UV-mapped, still need to texture them and get all the renders and slot layouts done.

Anyhow I've got another question. The following screenshot has crab-like Amonkrie troops in it:
http://www.captainkwok.net/images/se5-screen12.jpg
I guess these have some kind of walking animation, I however could not find any references to animation other than simple rotation in the text files on Malfador's site. Is animation supported?
Also, how would the Amonkrie troops survive on a gas giant world?

[Captain Kwok]

There are no animations for vehicles.