SE V demo Interface

[frightlever]

If I've done this right there'll be an attachment with a picture of my screen during system display. I'm having a hard time getting past the cack-handed way this is handled. The default option is a 3D display, except it isn't. It's a faux 3D display. Before you tee off on my about space being 3D consider that the 3D display is just a lumpy approximation of a 2D image anyway. There's no actual benefit to be had from the 3D display. If you've ever referred to a map you'll know that they're a 2D representation of a 3D environment. Nobody feels the need to make maps 3D to represent the height of a mountain or the depth of a valley so why is it necessary in a GUI? I'll probably edit this further to show other examples of the interface that make no sense to me. The file names should make this self-explanatory.

[frightlever]

Do we need this?

[frightlever]

How about this?

[frightlever]

3D rocks?

[Suicide Junkie]

I don't think I follow what you're getting at...

The angled view does let you make more use of your screen without having stuff be off the edge.
Tilting compresses the vertical, and essentially changes the aspect ratio of the map.


PS:
How are those screenshots any different from stuffing your view into the far corner of an SE4 combat replay?

I'd prefer a more flexible camera to what we have now than a more restricted one.

[frightlever]

Long and short of it is there anything in the first image that can really be improved upon with further panning out, panning in or converting to 3D?

[frightlever]

I refer to the combat replay view about once every 30 or 40 turns on average since I only play strategic. I refer to the system display constantly.

The other point being that there's a large blank border around the scrollable display probably to account for the fact that when you scroll right-in the border represents about a hex and a half but when you scroll out you can illogically scroll the 2d view about 2/3rds the length of itself. I kinda thought this was self-explanatory from the pictures.

If I can't lock the edge scrolling I'm constantly having to re-centre what can elegantly be represented by picture No 1. If I switch to 2D that's pretty much all I (ME) need. Your mileage may vary but flicking the screen about to get a decent view doesn't seem like progress.

[Suicide Junkie]

My preferred view is as shown

[Suicide Junkie]

frightlever said:
Long and short of it is there anything in the first image that can really be improved upon with further panning out, panning in or converting to 3D?

Yeah, definitely.
Most of the improvements come from modding, however.

Zooming in and going to angle view to make better use of the screen area would still help.

[frightlever]

That's actually fine by me too! It's basically the 3D view of my 2D view. The difference being that when you hop to a new system you'll have to rotate it to see what's going on there. And then rotate it back when you click back on your homeworld. Your call! Simple 2D view works for all systems.

Mainly what I want is the option to lock the view once I get it right. Now obviously that's not much use for a 3D view like your's, what with the constant twirling and all, but a locked down 2D view will serve me until SEVI.

[frightlever]

Oh and not to ***** or anything I was trying to keep the screenies under 100kb with my own postings just in case there are still dialup users here.

[Suicide Junkie]

Eh? I almost never rotate the view... there is no need. (After all, all of the hexes in my view are bigger than the hexes in your original top-down view)

Once in a while I might, if I feel like getting a closeup of some particularily devious fleet deployment of SE5a's http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[se5a]

like behind a sun SJ?

[frightlever]

You'll rotate the view every time you inadvertnetly stray off to either side actually. Just like you'll have to change your zoom if you go to far top or bottom.

And like I said this is the exact problem I have with the 2D view. I mainly just want a way to lock the view. I have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Try moving your mouse by making a fist and using the edge of you palm to move it - this is my world. I can FPS with the best of them on easy but fine control has gone. If you ever suffer RSI you will learn to distill your computing into what is good for it and what is bad for it. Needless mouse clinking and movement is a bad thing.

You say you don't need to rotate the view much but I don't see why you should have to rotate the view at all. In any event I can't see how that skewed 3D representation (of a myth of a view) is actually helpful to you, more than a straight 2D view would be. You're actually letting the skewed view play tricks with you vis a vis distance to objectives.

[Suicide Junkie]

I agree with you about too much clicking.
And a lock against accidental moves would be nice.

There are no perspective tricks with distances or anything...
Distances are all in "number of hexes", anyways. My goal is to have everything on the screen at once, and have it be as big as possible.

There is perspective, but it is no more a trick than a 2D photograph of the backyard.

[Puke]

so SJ, that screenshot seems to not be of the demo. I'd venture a guess that its not even a screenshot of the stock game. What kind of mod are you running there that gives your homeworld a scanning-range of 3 on the first turn of the game?

[Suicide Junkie]

What you see are just trivial things like new hex colours and settings.txt saying scanning range for colonies := 3 instead of 0.

[Noble713]

How did you shrink the Empire flags without also shrinking the base/ship/unit # displays?

[Captain Kwok]

Unfortunately they're attached on the same .bmp image so you can't reduce one without reducing the other.

[Suicide Junkie]

I had to do it by editing all the bitmaps...

[Captain Kwok]

Suicide Junkie said:
I had to do it by editing all the bitmaps...

What percentage did you reduced it to? I reduced them to 40% size (by area) with my mod. Also, did you do them all - alliance and neutral flags too?

Edit:
Nevermind. I saw the download. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Almost all of them...
I've gotten all the ones that are attached to shipsets, but I think there are a few independent ones floating around still.

[Artaud]

Captain Kwok said:
Unfortunately they're attached on the same .bmp image so you can't reduce one without reducing the other.



That's not good. One of the fun parts of playing with different ship sets is being able to see the ships.

[Renegade 13]

frightlever said:
trying to keep the screenies under 100kb with my own postings just in case there are still dialup users here.

On behalf of us dialup users, it is appreciated.

[Noble713]

I thought someone asked this question in one of the 3 SE5 demo threads we have going but I didn't find it, so here goes:

How do you scrap facilities? The Colonies and Construction Queues screens have "Scrap Cargo" buttons but not Scrap Facilities. The Deconstruction Orders button has mothball/analyze/abandon planet/etc. ....but not Scrap Facilities. Am I just not looking carefully?

[Phoenix-D]

Facilities are under the scrap cargo.

[Slick]

how do you see planet orders?

[Noble713]

Phoenix-D said:
Facilities are under the scrap cargo.



GAH! Thanks.

System View: I'd like the ability to zoom out enough to see the whole system, while still retaining the 3D view.

Tactical View: Definitely needs expanded camera controls, at least on par with the current system view.

[Wade]

Cool. Thanks. I used Bit Torrent and I am now exploring the game. It's decent looking. I'm having trouble finding where the facilities on my planet are listed other than scrap cargo area. I noticed current facilities/maximum facilities is listed as tonnage. 19000/20000. I have room for one more facilitie I think.

Update: OK. Right click on the planet image in the interface to get planet screen. Also, right click on planet in system then choose report. Perhaps double clicking on planet in system should do this too.

[Wade]

-----Let's have some thing neat to look at with detail that changes often in between turns instead of a black screen.

-----Let's have an opening cinematic to the loading of the game (also maybe at a game start?), even if it's very short.

-----How about some movement animation on the title screen?

[Zereth]

Wade said:
-----Let's have an opening cinematic to the loading of the game (also maybe at a game start?), even if it's very short.



NO. Anything that gets between me and the main menu when I boot the game is BAD. I don't want to be informed that it runs best on AtiVida cards or see StrategyFirst's animated logo, I want to PLAY.

[Wade]

Shift clicking, such as used in ship design, should be noted on the appropriate screen.Perhaps with a scroll over.

[Suicide Junkie]

Zereth said:

Wade said:
-----Let's have an opening cinematic to the loading of the game (also maybe at a game start?), even if it's very short.



NO. Anything that gets between me and the main menu when I boot the game is BAD. I don't want to be informed that it runs best on AtiVida cards or see StrategyFirst's animated logo, I want to PLAY.

That is exactly why I play my PBW turns using SE4 Gold instead of Deluxe.

[Wade]

People opposed to a cinematic are, I believe, in the minority compared to the vast gamers in a desired market.

[Atrocities]

Specific improvment ideas are always welcome in Aarons email box.

[Suicide Junkie]

Wade said:
People opposed to a cinematic are, I believe, in the minority compared to the vast gamers in a desired market.

Malfador is a game company, not a movie studio.

Non-interactive video sequences hurt gameplay. Aaron is plenty busy fixing bugs and implementing the actual game.

I dunno about you or them, but as far as I can see a game should be played not watched.

[Noble713]

Is there a difference in behavior between Core/Escort/Picket ships other than their location in the task force? How do I tell which ship is the lead ship in a task force, especially in tactical combat? Since the rest will move to maintain formation, you should effectively be able to move the whole TF by moving just the lead ship. The tactical mini-map also needs some zoom functions. In my most recent battle against a huge planet my fleet was almost entirely "off map". I can only imagine the difficulty of tracking separate ships/TFs after they move off different edges of the mini-map.

I love the depth that fleet organization has, but the interface needs work. Like much of the game's interface, there are screens that present info, but in order to change that info you have to go to other screens. For example, if you select a fleet and right-click to bring up its report, it will display the attack/defense formations, list all the ships, and display TF information on a sub-tab, and the warp transit order on a sub-tab. You can't change any of this stuff without leaving the Fleet Report. I shouldn't have to go to the Fleet Transfer Screen to change the Task Force formations and strategies for a single fleet I'm looking at already.

[Artaud]

Zereth said:
NO. Anything that gets between me and the main menu when I boot the game is BAD. I don't want to be informed that it runs best on AtiVida cards or see StrategyFirst's animated logo, I want to PLAY.



Yes, yes, yes 1000 times! I completely agree. The first thing I do with games that have an opening video is shut it OFF (if the game gives me the option of doing so).

[Atrocities]

The more people play and the more people report bugs and offer suggestions the better the game will become. Remember that helpful feed back with detailed bug reports or specific suggesions coupled with a save game or two can only help to make the game better.

[LordAxel]

Not sure if it was a bug but my first battle my ship would refuse to move toward the enemy. May have been bc i didnt set a strategy when i built it but then i couldnt ad one after. i had to physically move the ship by clicking near the enemy, clicking on it would cause my ship to turn and run.

[StarShadow]

In my opinion the UI needs an overhaul, so many things are either completely unintuitive, or takes more 'work' to do. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but retro-fitting seems to be a prime example. It seems to be impossible to retrofit multiple ships at the same time, also.

[Suicide Junkie]

It is definitely not just you.

[Santiago]

I agree it needs an early overhaul already.

If looking at the entire system- you can barely see ships.

Way too much clicking everywhere.

The windows at the bottom seem to be taking up too much screen real estate.

Being able to lock the rotate and zoom with the mouse would be most helpful and also it does not seem to be much of a zoom as it is moving in and out.

[Atrocities]

You won't find one person amoung the "group" that will disagree with you regarding UI issues. The focus has been on bug fixes and getting the features to work, and balance, not UI improvments. However now that the Demo is out and the Fan feed back is coming in, perhaps the focus will now be shifted a bit toward improving the UI and its functionality.

[AMF]

Having had an entire night and much of today at work to think about the game, I have come to a painful conclusion:

There are a lot of little problems. Most of them I could probably power through and just be constantly annoyed by. There are, however, two overwhelming problems that I can't get past:

1) The main window UI needs to be fixed.
2) The ship design UI needs to be fixed.

I can go into detail on what I mean, if needed. But until these UI issues are fixed, the game is, to me, not viable and I WILL NOT be buying it.

If those things are fixed, then I'll buy the game immediately (and then, being an annoyingly critical S0B, I'll press for all the other problems to be fixed...)

I really can't see playing it with the UI as is.

Thanks,

AMF

[Mephisto]

AMF, I think it is save to say that us beta testers are not surprised by this conclusion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Im just generally unhappy. Im forcing myself to continue playing the SEV demo to try and give it a fair chance but I feel pulled back to my SEIV game. So far Im really wanting an SE 4.5 with 4's graphics and some of 5's features.

[StarShadow]

As much as I really, really like some of the new stuff in SEV, like the much improved diplomacy, there are just too many other problems that really ruin it for me. All in all, this demo certainly does not present the game in a good light. Which is to be expected when the beta testers are ignored. Unless the full version fixes a lot of the issues presented (and we get a patched demo to prove it), I just don't see me wasting my money on another Moo3..

[Artaud]

Gandalf Parker said:
Im just generally unhappy. Im forcing myself to continue playing the SEV demo to try and give it a fair chance but I feel pulled back to my SEIV game. So far Im really wanting an SE 4.5 with 4's graphics and some of 5's features.



I'm sorry to say that I feel the same way you do. I spent a lot of time with the SEV demo on Friday night, and also played it for most of Saturday. I wanted to post what you and some others have posted late last night, but held off because I wondered if maybe it's "just me." I can see that it isn't.

I won't be buying SEV. The many issues with the UI just kill the game for me.

[Ragnarok-X]

Unfortunally i agree with the two of us. Im very sorry to hear myself saying that since i was expecting so much from SEV. I remember months ago when we had rumours in the boards that the game is bugged etc. The testers said something like "the game is enjoyable etc". At this point, im not enjoying it.

[Suicide Junkie]

Everybody I know says the UI is bad, we just need to convince Aaron to fix it.

I hope most people can see that there is a good game underneath that UI and those stock datafiles.

[StarDragon]

Hey guys, I just spent FRI/SAT playing the demo.

I really like the fresh new look of the UI but that's cosmetic. Since it was a demo It's barely a taste of what I hope the full one will be.

One major suggestion: Give the option for SE4 style system maps (with enhanced animated planets fo course). Reason: I couldn't see anything if a ship was posted there!!!

I prefer the 2D view but had to move my view to see what was underneath it if I forgot from playing and managign my fleets... Please go back to the old icon system that didn't obscure views so much. Or at least give it as an option.

I couldn't see any ground features cause soon as I tried an invasion the game crashed. I had been attacked in space 5-6 times and wanted some payback but not in space. I dunno what teh issure was, my units moved to the planet hex and boom CTD...

Clearly IMHO this is not ready for an October Release. More testing seems to be in order.

BTW has anyone modded the Demo? Just curious...

[Phoenix-D]

One very important note on the UI: Right click is your new best friend.

Take the construction que screen. In SE4 you had buttons on the right to select rate/usage/cargo/etc. In SE5, you have to go to the Layouts screen to do the same thing. A problem, right?

Right click on any of the tabs at the top and a drop-down menu will appear with all the options from BOTH the filter tab and the Layout tab. One more click than SE4, much less mouse movement and a hell of a lot more options.

[LordAxel]

Quick question about the constrution queue. Is there any way to have it show what each planet is constructing without having to go to that planets queue. Looking for something similiar tthe se4 queue where you could see what all your planets we building

[Phoenix-D]

LordAxel: Yes. Click on Layout, then the Construction tab button. Or right-click on the planet name tab, and click construction.

[Artaud]

Suicide Junkie said:
Everybody I know says the UI is bad, we just need to convince Aaron to fix it.

I hope most people can see that there is a good game underneath that UI and those stock datafiles.



We shall see. At this point I feel that the demo has been a waste of my weekend. I tried hard to approach it with an open mind. Then I tried hard to like it. But it's just not fun for me.

[Santiago]

Mephisto said:
AMF, I think it is save to say that us beta testers are not surprised by this conclusion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif




So a lot of these issues were brought up by the Beta testers and ignored?

As of today I can't see wasting any money on this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Raapys]

What are the chances we'll get a complete control/user interface overhaul before release?

[Gandalf Parker]

Maybe I need a new computer (disappointing since its not that old) but the graphics to me seemed to slow the game down. A new player might not notice but having just come from an SEIV game I found it irritating. The graphics arent worth that IMHO.

Also I seemed to be moving my mouse too much. I click on something and get a screen, then I have to move my mouse clear across that screen to close it. I tried keeping my finger on the escape button but sometimes hitting esc backed me up more than that one screen. Is there a "C" to close or something?

Which reminds me. This is probably already mentioned? The DEMO readme file doesnt list KeyPress codes. It says they are in the manual. But my manual button doesnt work, there doesnt seem to be a manual file. Come to think of it I didnt hack the usual help keys. A keychart is in the demo someplace?

[Fyron]

You can customize the hotkeys in the main options window. This will function as an ad hoc key chart.

[Phoenix-D]

Gandalf: to get a hotkey list (and change them!) open the main menu and press controls.

The graphics have a significant effect on gameplay actually; the system is twice the size of the SE4 system, for example. Could have been done in 2d, yes, but it works better like this.

Mouse movement: right click a lot, on headings especially. A lot of the dialogs can be done that way with much less mouse movement.

[frightlever]

"Right click on any of the tabs at the top and a drop-down menu will appear with all the options from BOTH the filter tab and the Layout tab. One more click than SE4, much less mouse movement and a hell of a lot more options. "

That tip is solid gold. Cheers!

[Raapys]

Personally, I prefer SEIV's 2D system view by far. This one is awkward at best, and even if you zoom out or do the top-down view thingy it basically just gets even worse, as it wasn't designed for it.

[Phoenix-D]

Right click is like a tiny little God in this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Another thing: custom layouts are good for reducing the switching back and forth. I have my planets screen set to show me all the SE4 planet info screen plus Time to Arrival, for example.

[Black_Knyght]

Gandalf Parker said:
Im just generally unhappy. Im forcing myself to continue playing the SEV demo to try and give it a fair chance but I feel pulled back to my SEIV game. So far Im really wanting an SE 4.5 with 4's graphics and some of 5's features.




Man Oh Man, did you take the words right out of my mouth on this one !!!

The graphics in SEIV worked just fine for me, and while some of the features added to SEV would be nice to have in SEIV they're certainly not enough to make an instant "OOOH AAAH" convert out of me. I'm not at all pleased with this incarnation of SE at all.

[AMF]

Granted, but I fear that things like this, which are hard to figure out will not be found by newbies in time to avoid a highly public trashing in the media.

An tutorial that was even marginally improved from SE4 could go a LONG way to making this game accessible by john q public.



Phoenix-D said:
Right click is like a tiny little God in this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Another thing: custom layouts are good for reducing the switching back and forth. I have my planets screen set to show me all the SE4 planet info screen plus Time to Arrival, for example.

[StarShadow]

Right now the feature I want the most is an option for a 'classic' interface (ie an SE4 interface). I might even be able to overlook the lack of real race customization with a 'classic' interface/UI.

[Will]

Ok, I've been playing the demo for a total of maybe 6 hours now...

And I just now noticed that the "real world" time is displayed in the main game window. Spouses and Significant Others of the world, Rejoice! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Fyron]

Black_Knyght:

Have you looked under the hood at the data files yet? Sadly, most of the new features get buried under the deluge of the not-so-stellar interface. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[PDF]

Suicide Junkie said:
Everybody I know says the UI is bad, we just need to convince Aaron to fix it.

I hope most people can see that there is a good game underneath that UI and those stock datafiles.



Add my vote if you petition Aaron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif
SE5 is real prettier than SE4 but the system map poor UI make us regret it ...

[AMF]

I resisted emailing Aaron with my complaints, but a lot of people ("those in the know") have convinced me that the more people that do individually petition him the better the chances that things will get fixed.

So...if you want something fixed, I would email him directly.

if enough of us do it, it will get fixed. Hopefully before the reviewers get a hold of the game.

[PDF]

AMF said:
I resisted emailing Aaron with my complaints, but a lot of people ("those in the know") have convinced me that the more people that do individually petition him the better the chances that things will get fixed.

So...if you want something fixed, I would email him directly.

if enough of us do it, it will get fixed. Hopefully before the reviewers get a hold of the game.



Too bad I'm a reviewer...
Was Aaron really adamant about the interface ? At least the mouse controls could be, well, normal ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I think being a lone developer/programmer caught up a bit with Aaron this time with the complexity of SE:V. I'm hoping that with the pressures of the release past him, that more time can be spent refining various items in subsequent patches.

[frightlever]

Okay I tooled around with the Standard System Display I posted at the start of this thread and came up with this. Ignore the crappy resolution (it's about an 80kb file) and the nasty *** cut and pasting - I just wanted to show what it could look like if more room was given to the actual system display by cutting away the thick border at the bottom of the screen. Just try to imagine it blown up to fit your resolution of choice.

And yes I am died in the wool 2D only. The 3D display is faux I tell you! Faux...

[Phoenix-D]

fright: where's the sector display? Or is that it in the lower-left?

If we're going for a revamped interface, the simple way would be to make everything movable. The complicated way would be to stick everything up top and on the sides, and make a "viewport", so the controls would never obsure the screen.

[frightlever]

Sector display is top left. It and the planet/ship display could as easily be swapped. And there's plenty of room down the right hand side for more "buttons".

Edit: and I've no problem with movable panels but the main thing IMO is that most screen resolutions (all?) offer more space horizontally than vertically so it make far more sense to use the space at the sides and thereby maximise the view of the system. With the standard view about a qtr of the height of the screen is unavailable to the system map.

[Phoenix-D]

Sectors are individual hexes in se terms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So what you called ship/planet display.

[wrongshui]

Whats wrong with the UI exactly?

Ive played SE 3 and 4 and im enjoying the demo, everyone else seems to be acting like the game kicks them in the balls or 2 or 3 clicks equals a MoO3.

It could be more intuitive I suppose but its not ruining the game for me.

[Phoenix-D]

frightlever: good news and bad news. The good news is that SE5 has a Hudsettings.txt file that lets you move various interface elements around. So in theory we COULD make your custom UI layout.

The bad news is the file doesn't have all the settings needed to do that. :/ You can move the buttons of the main bar and orders menu around, but you can't move the containers they are in or any other interface element. Looks like something that was started and put on the back burner.

[Noble713]

So if we moved the buttons like frightlever did they would just be floating in space? What about editting the images for the "HUD panels" so they are completely black or something similar?

[Phoenix-D]

That might work, but they could still get in the way of clicks. And yeah, the buttons would just be floating in space. No border or anything like that.

EDIT: yep. The main buttons are in Dlg_Main_ButtonBar.bmp. If you replace the contents of that file with that nasty pinkish color, it turns transparent. Boom, instant buttons-only display.

EDIT2: here's a larger, easier to see version of the minimalist UI.

[Phoenix-D]

Here's a tiny, crappy picture of a ultra-minimalist UI. Not that I haven't MOVED any of the buttons yet, just got rid of their borders entirely.

You'll note that the quadrent map is transparent, too. You can click on sectors through it now; the only thing there that is clickable is systems and the command buttons above.

[AMF]

That's a good start, and very encouraging. Can you do the same, but with a 2D view, so we can see how feasible it is to see all the planets names at a legible size?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

my UI gripes:

Having to use the filter button in the design screen is extremely annoying. It would be 900% better if you had a ships button, units button, and a Filter button that did obsolete designs/enemy designs.

The non-stackability of Units in most aspects of the UI makes handling them extremely clunky, particularly in the Log, which is continiously spammed with individual unit construction reports. Ideal would be a single construction complete notification for each type of unit under construction, listing the quantities and locations of completed units. Stacking units in cargo would be nice too but far less crucial.

I'm not sure if this is a UI issue or not...I don't understand how to get the AI to automatically upgrade facilities for me, nor automatically colonize.

[AMF]

Now this is definitely closer to what I am talking about. How did you get it to do this? Ditto on the 2D v 3D thing. 3D systems just don't work with this UI, but a 2D one, with moving windows around as you indicate, might be sufficient, provided something can be done about the planet icons and font size etc...

Good to know the interface can be modded, in any case.

Can you do a step by step HOWTO on creating this layout?

Edit adds: Can you send the pic to Aaron, also?

And, is there any way to offset the flag and other planet icons in the 2D view, so they don't obscure the planet? OR, can the hex selection color intensity be changed, or put on top of the icons, so I can tell which planet I have selected?

Thanks again, this is looking better and better. Will definitely do this to my UI when I figure out how to.

AMF


frightlever said:
Okay I tooled around with the Standard System Display I posted at the start of this thread and came up with this. Ignore the crappy resolution (it's about an 80kb file) and the nasty *** cut and pasting - I just wanted to show what it could look like if more room was given to the actual system display by cutting away the thick border at the bottom of the screen. Just try to imagine it blown up to fit your resolution of choice.

And yes I am died in the wool 2D only. The 3D display is faux I tell you! Faux...

[Black_Knyght]

Imperator Fyron said:
Black_Knyght:

Have you looked under the hood at the data files yet? Sadly, most of the new features get buried under the deluge of the not-so-stellar interface. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif




Yeah, I took the time to look at them, but in truth I'm only just beginning to understand the modding process and now I'd have to learn another one.

Additionally, I've run this Demo now a total of 12 times, and it constantly gives me headaches and troubles. In all likelyhood I'd have to update my entire system to play it, which I'm not at all about to do simply for a single game that hasn't impressed me in any way. I think it was a very bad idea to gear it towards higher-end systems graphically.

I liked the playability of SEIV, the "Hands -On" adaptability of the game, and didn't play it simply for the graphics. Being able to do things like rotate a solar system just doesn't give me goose bumps all over.

I know my lack of drool over the new game is a minority opinion, and while I respect those of others folks I think I've come as far as I'm going to with Space Empires. I liked SEIII, I really love SEIV, and SEV just didn't go where I'd hoped it would. They did improve on the things I liked, but then overran it with things I didn't.

[Suicide Junkie]

Phoenix-D said:
You'll note that the quadrent map is transparent, too. You can click on sectors through it now; the only thing there that is clickable is systems and the command buttons above.

How about making the greyed out orders 50% transparent via the good old "every-other-pixel" trick?

[AMF]

Has anyone out there played the demo using 1600*1200 resolution?

In about 10 months, I plan on buying a new monitor capable of that resolution, and I'm wondering if I can anticipate a big difference in playing SEV? Is everything much more legible etc at that res?

Tks,
AMF

[Suicide Junkie]

AMF said:
And, is there any way to offset the flag and other planet icons in the 2D view, so they don't obscure the planet? OR, can the hex selection color intensity be changed, or put on top of the icons, so I can tell which planet I have selected?

See if smaller flags help any:
Mini Flags (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE5/Mods/SJs_EmpireFlag_Patch.zip)

[Captain Kwok]

It should make a huge difference on the amount of the system you can display at once without any of the HUD overlapping the system. For example, a modded system of 20x15 hexes fits quite nicely at 1280x960 (top down or skewed) on my computer. So I'd imagine the default 26x20 hex system would fit very nicely at 1600x1200. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Makinus]

First impressions of SEVdemo:

What i liked:
- The need to survey new systems (i simply found kind of strange in SEIV that your scouts scanned instantly all the system, with all the data of every planet and so on)...
- The 3D view... i know that a lot of people are complaining about it, and the difficulties of managing the view, but i found it not so hard and i think it gives a more epic feel to the game (this don´t mean that the interface should not be improved, as there is room for a lot of improvements in the UI)...
- The tactical combat, both in space and ground combat, and the moddeling of units in combat individually instead of stacks (one of my main gripes in SEIV).
- The way that research is handled, i find it much more realistic, and easier to manage than SEIV scheme.


What i didn´t like:
- Vehicle Design, i find the interface too clunky, with too much unecessary clicking, and i can see at least 2 improvements in the UI that would be simple and reduce a lot of clicking (see in suggestions below).
- Empire flags: even when small they obscure too much, while they are bearable in the 3D view, they are horrible in the 2D view, obscuring the planets nearly completely.
- Events display, maybe it´s only me, but i found the SEIV event display much more advanced, and i think the SEV events are too huge screen wise.

Suggestions:
- In Vehicle Design, when viewing a component, eliminate the need for the player to click the "Close" button to close the information of the component, allow the player to simply click the information screen again to close it. This should be applied to all static screens, i.e. all screens that the player don´t need to choose anything...
- In Vehicle Design, when you choose a component to put in a design, keep the mouse with that component after putting the first one in the design, only changing the component when the player chooses another one in the component list, this would make putting multiple components of the same type quicker.
- Events Display: reduce the size of each event, maybe with smaller icons, as the icons and not the message is what is occupying most of the screen.

I´m still playing around the demo (didn´t reach the turn limit yet) and will probably have more commentaries, but for now the major problem is the UI and not the game itself, aasi´m finding a much more advanced game than SEIV, but with a worse UI, as the majority of the people are finding too.

Just to add my 0,02 cents...

[Captain Kwok]

Makinus said:- In Vehicle Design, when viewing a component, eliminate the need for the player to click the "Close" button to close the information of the component, allow the player to simply click the information screen again to close it. This should be applied to all static screens, i.e. all screens that the player don´t need to choose anything...
- In Vehicle Design, when you choose a component to put in a design, keep the mouse with that component after putting the first one in the design, only changing the component when the player chooses another one in the component list, this would make putting multiple components of the same type quicker.
- Events Display: reduce the size of each event, maybe with smaller icons, as the icons and not the message is what is occupying most of the screen.

These ideas already exist: Use ESC to close the windows quickly, shift+click allows for adding multiple components, and the log/event pics can be made smaller/none by clicking on the column header (which also works for the list screens as well).

[Makinus]

Cool, i´ll try playing some more, i dind´t knew about these options...

I should play some more before suggesting things that are already there...

[Raapys]

Still, they should probably be the default mouse functions, instead of requiring the assistance of the keyboard.

[Captain Kwok]

Most of the windows are moveable (click on the blue name box at the top of the window to move it around) so having a mouse-click close the window might not be the best idea. And plus I don't know of any program that uses windows that close when you click on them either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[AMF]

Wait, I couldn't move the three windows in the main screen (quadrant, items list, and orders). I've pointedly suggested that to MM, but are you implying we can actually do that in the full (non-demo) version of the game?

Thanks,

AMF

[Phoenix-D]

Its actually not that uncommon for info-only windows Kwok.

[Phoenix-D]

No, I think he means the pop-up windows.

BTW, what resolution is everyone running in? I'm begining to think some of my non-annoyance at the UI comes from the fact that I'm using a 19' LCD and running the game at 1280x1024..

[Captain Kwok]

Phoenix-D said:
No, I think he means the pop-up windows.

BTW, what resolution is everyone running in? I'm begining to think some of my non-annoyance at the UI comes from the fact that I'm using a 19' LCD and running the game at 1280x1024..

I'm sure that helps. The screenshots I posted at my website are at 1024x768 and they are a lot more cluttered than my default mode of play which is 1280x960...

[Phoenix-D]

-peeks-

Ok, yeah, I can see that now. The UI elements stay the same size, meaning the smaller your resolution the less you can see of everything else. :/

I was *wondering* why there was so much space between UI elements..

[frightlever]

I'm playing at 1280x1024 and still find it cluttered. Don't really want to get a bigger LCD cos it'll kill the FPS in um FPS games if I have to run them at a higher default resolution. As is I play FEAR at 640x480 (3400XP + 7800GS).

[Phoenix-D]

You should be able to play FEAR higher than that. My system has a weaker graphics card and about the same CPU, I can run it 800x600 or if I push it 1024x786.

Anyway, I'm still putzing about with the ultra-minimalist UI. Given that I can move the command buttons, suggestions on where to put them? The quadrent map has movement options, but I haven't been able to get them to work.

So the status display at the top, the sector list, the quadrent list, and the small buttons at the top of each panel stay where they are.

[TurinTurambar]

<font color="green"> /me disengages lurking device </font>

I've been lurking heavily the past two days on this thread and others. I figure I'll let the more savvy players poke at it first and see what wiggles.

I am not optimistic ATT.

<font color="green"> /me engages lurking device </font>

[frightlever]

Move the command buttons to the right - 3 columns of 15 or so sounds about right. Group them by Ship-based, planet-based and misc. Scrap the submenus. Remove the sector(!) view from across the bottom because it's not the best place for it.

[Phoenix-D]

I can only move the buttons as is, I can't change their contents. Can't move the sector or quadrent view either (there are options to move the quadrent view, but they don't seem to work)

Moving buttons to the right..

EDIT: Ok, hudsettings.txt isn't fully implimented, this idea won't work. The order buttons can only be moved vertically about 50 pixels, and then they stop.

[Noble713]

Black_Knyght said:
I think it was a very bad idea to gear it towards higher-end systems graphically.





*raises eyebrow* You think SE5 has high-end graphics requirements? Try playing Oblivion or F.E.A.R. I think any performance issues stem from less-than-efficient programming, rather than the actual graphics capabilities. Take ground combat: it doesn't have advanced particle effects, rag-doll physics, volumetric lighting, or even animations for the units, yet it still turns into a virtual slideshow. That just means Aaaron needs to clean up the code.

I think your comment is akin to wishing a movie was released on VHS even though it is clear that the market has moved on to DVDs. VHS is only useful to people who still have VHS players and are unwilling/unable to get DVD players.

[StarShadow]

just wanted to point out that Civ4 has higher graphic requirements than SEV.

[Santiago]

I generally like the game with more options than SEIV and the modding possibilities but the interface makes it hard to try and enjoy the game. The info, map and button windows occupy too much screen real estate. The mini flag patch is good but still trying to find my ships on the map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. The UI needs a lot of work.

[Phoenix-D]

Just look for the flags, not your ships. Definitely annoying that you can't see them but you don't actually need to.

[Santiago]

Yes actually I do at least. It's not a geography game or capture the flag. It's Space Empires and I would like to see my ships not some miniature dot off in the distance that is impossible to find. To me that is just one point of many that makes playing SEIV more worthwhile than SEV; at this point in time.

Just an observation not anything personal. You have given out a lot of good info on SEV which includes shortcuts, insights and workarounds. And keep the info coming, but there are too many workarounds for a demo this close to release. Workarounds usually sounds like justification to push a game that hasn't gotten a stellar reception by the community.

Then again maybe I expected too much.

[Black_Knyght]

Noble713 said:

Black_Knyght said:
I think it was a very bad idea to gear it towards higher-end systems graphically.





*raises eyebrow* You think SE5 has high-end graphics requirements? Try playing Oblivion or F.E.A.R. I think any performance issues stem from less-than-efficient programming, rather than the actual graphics capabilities. Take ground combat: it doesn't have advanced particle effects, rag-doll physics, volumetric lighting, or even animations for the units, yet it still turns into a virtual slideshow. That just means Aaaron needs to clean up the code.

I think your comment is akin to wishing a movie was released on VHS even though it is clear that the market has moved on to DVDs. VHS is only useful to people who still have VHS players and are unwilling/unable to get DVD players.



Two points here:

1) You may well be right that it's not an issue of higher-end graphics required, but instead a matter of "less-than-efficient programming". That's something I neither dispute nor argue. Either way, it doens't work for me.

2)You said my comments were "akin to wishing a movie was released on VHS". Obviously, you let the point I was trying to make sail right over your head. I have a good, solid, reliable system, neither low-end nor top-end, but quite usable all the same. I'm not going to "upgrade" my system simply to play a new version of some game. I'm a little more "Real World" grounded than that. It just makes little sense to me to release a new game with the idea in mind that any interested party will have to stay top-of-the-line to play it.


On a side note - I do not play "Oblivion or F.E.A.R.", nor do I really care to. I do play Space Empires, I do enjoy Space Empires, and if I were interested in any other game I more than likely wouldn't be here discussing it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Black Knyght, the point there is that SE5's graphics are far from state of the art, and any computer built in the last 5 years should be able to run them with ease. They can't, because the game's a bit buggy at the moment, but they should be able to.

[StarShadow]

I have an AMD 2500/512Meg Ram/Ati Radeon 9600pro...I need binoculars to see high-end..in 1280x768 with graphics set to medium I get 50-60fps in the system screen.

On that note, would it be a good idea to start a new thread for people to list their system specs and the framerate they get?

[Black_Knyght]

Phoenix-D said:
Black Knyght, the point there is that SE5's graphics are far from state of the art, and any computer built in the last 5 years should be able to run them with ease. They can't, because the game's a bit buggy at the moment, but they should be able to.



If you read point #1, I conceded to that as a possibility.

[Black_Knyght]

An interesting observation here:

I'm starting to notice there's an interesting lean now against anybody not rampantly in favor of the new SEV game. Not trying to single anyone out, or make an issue of this. I just thought I'd point it out.

If "X" doesn't like a thing, then "X" doesn't like it. Telling "X" they're all wrong in their opinion about it doesn't improve what "X" doesn't like about it, it just invalidates "X's" opinion because it's not the same as the popular majority point of view.

[StarShadow]

I haven't really seen that here to be honest. It was that sort of attitude that drove me away from the Civ4 apolyton forum.

[Phoenix-D]

Black_Knyght said:
If "X" doesn't like a thing, then "X" doesn't like it. Telling "X" they're all wrong in their opinion about it doesn't improve what "X" doesn't like about it, it just invalidates "X's" opinion because it's not the same as the popular majority point of view.



Entirely correct. If I've been giving that impression I apologize. What I've been doing is trying to point out ways to make the game more handlable, and/or correct misconceptions (options are fine, mis-informed opinions annoy me).

[wrongshui]

Black_Knyght said:
2)You said my comments were "akin to wishing a movie was released on VHS". Obviously, you let the point I was trying to make sail right over your head. I have a good, solid, reliable system, neither low-end nor top-end, but quite usable all the same. I'm not going to "upgrade" my system simply to play a new version of some game. I'm a little more "Real World" grounded than that. It just makes little sense to me to release a new game with the idea in mind that any interested party will have to stay top-of-the-line to play it.



How old is your computer? I have one top of the line, one mid range and one thats 6 years old and it plays on all the them just the same, cept the newer skips through turns quicker.

If you need to upgrade to play this game its at least nine or ten years old at which point i'd love to know how you kept it ticking over so long.

[Suicide Junkie]

Santiago said:
It's Space Empires and I would like to see my ships not some miniature dot off in the distance that is impossible to find.

It should be almost trivial to scale up the ship models. Just multiply the scaling factor on the models and presto, the ships are big and visible.

[AMF]

Wow, I don't see that at all. If anything, I thought the opposite. But, in any case, to repeat my earlier posts and test your hypotheses, I'll repeat my earlier statements:

The SEV UI STINKS. I will NOT buy SEV unless and until the UI is made useable. There are a LOT of other problems with the game as well, that certainly must be fixed if SEV is to be a long term success in the gaming community.

Nonetheless, I am just as convinced that SEV could be a very great game the minute the UI and the other fixes are implemented.

Thanks,
AMF


Black_Knyght said:
An interesting observation here:

I'm starting to notice there's an interesting lean now against anybody not rampantly in favor of the new SEV game. Not trying to single anyone out, or make an issue of this. I just thought I'd point it out.

[Black_Knyght]

wrongshui said:


How old is your computer? I have one top of the line, one mid range and one thats 6 years old and it plays on all the them just the same, cept the newer skips through turns quicker.

If you need to upgrade to play this game its at least nine or ten years old at which point i'd love to know how you kept it ticking over so long.




My PC's about three years old, and geared towards 3D rendering and graphics, as I do a lot of 3D artwork that I post on various sites.

In theory, it should be more than capable of handling the game, but it doesn't.

[wrongshui]

I'd blame the game not your set up then, demos are usually not optimised anyway, take fear for example, the demo was a slide show for me, full game ran fine.

[frightlever]

"I'm starting to notice there's an interesting lean now against anybody not rampantly in favor of the new SEV game. "

I'd say opinion is about 50/50 but the beta-testers are weighing in with a greater knowledge of the game and what it's really capable of, in their opinions.

I uninstalled last night. I'm getting absolutely nothing from the demo that I don't get from Adamant (Fyron's mod, right? Nice work whoever!) except frustration. Playing the unlocked game may help but I have to see the UI improved first.

And I guess it's just possible this game is no longer right for me. Take away the 3D system view and the "improved" tactical battles, none of which I use, and while there's undoubtedly a deeper game potential I'm being held back from it by: the speed of strategic battle resolution which is a joke (and probably necessary because it's just running a tactical simulation without the fugly grafix) and the system display I'm having to constantly adjust.

Like the guy said a day back or so - I'm recloaking and going back into lurker mode.

[Tim Brooks]

The SEV UI STINKS. I will NOT buy SEV unless and until the UI is made useable.



Well it went Gold today. Which means that UI changes are probabaly out. Maybe a patch, huh? Anyway, I plan to wait a few of weeks and pick it up for $20.00. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[StarShadow]

BK, out of curiousity, do you have the video set to Auto, or Safe? I've found that setting it to Safe solved the major problems I had. Too bad there's no setting to make the UI better lol..

[DarkHorse]

Tim Brooks said:

Well it went Gold today. Which means that UI changes are probabaly out. Maybe a patch, huh? Anyway, I plan to wait a few of weeks and pick it up for $20.00. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Not that I don't believe you, but I can't find a 'gold' announcement anywhere. What was your source?

[Tim Brooks]

It is being talked about here:

spaceempires.net (http://www.spaceempires.net/home/ftopict-1760.html)

Supposedly their newsletter stated this (I saw someone else mention it also, but can't remember where). They sure aren't the press release gurus, huh.

[Santiago]

Suicide Junkie said:

Santiago said:
It's Space Empires and I would like to see my ships not some miniature dot off in the distance that is impossible to find.

It should be almost trivial to scale up the ship models. Just multiply the scaling factor on the models and presto, the ships are big and visible.



I will certainly try but what seems trivial to an experienced modder is not so trivial for some of us http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Santiago]

Finally found where to change it. the scale factor for all ships is at .01. Each shipclass is different and has to be set individually and then checked to see if you personally like it for each race and each ship class. Very time consuming and convoluted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif .02 or .03 seems best to start at- no big changes or you get a giant ship. File is Ships_Xfileclasses.txt under Empires/race specific folders

[Captain Kwok]

It might be faster to encourage MM to add a settubg under the Display System options for the system ship icons.

[Gandalf Parker]

Tim Brooks said:
It is being talked about here:

spaceempires.net (http://www.spaceempires.net/home/ftopict-1760.html)

Supposedly their newsletter stated this (I saw someone else mention it also, but can't remember where). They sure aren't the press release gurus, huh.



Not compared to Shrapnel I feel. I see news articles all over on Dominions 3 and Rising Star from Shrapnel, but I havent seen much about Space Empires V.

I thought the difference was that Strat 1st was shelfware and marketing, vs online and publicity. The wait-for-profits was supposed to be to get larger player base?

Has anyone seen any ads in magazines or anything? Im not trying to slam S1. Im just hoping that Aaron got what he wanted.

Gandalf Parker

[StarShadow]

Personally, if it wasn't for this board I wouldn't even know the SEV demo was out. I haven't seen a single thing about SEV anywhere other than here (and other fan sites) and the official site.

[Artaud]

Phoenix-D said:
Just look for the flags, not your ships. Definitely annoying that you can't see them but you don't actually need to.



Yeah, you could just use the flags, but I have to agree with Santiago: it's pointless to play a game about Space Empires and starships and not be able to see the ships. I, for one, NEED to see my ships. There are a lot of races with a lot of different ship styles, and with the modder community hard at work there will be many more. One of the coolest things about SEIV was/is the huge number of gorgeous ship sets available to play with.

When the Borg invade my system I want to see those cubes clearly. When I play the Klingons, or the Terrans, or whomever, I want to see my beautiful starships sweeping across the system. I want to know at-a-glance what enemy has entered my territory. This is a very, very, very basic thing, IMHO. It should have been brought to Aaron's attention by the beta testers, and dealt with early on.

I like the new planet information and ship information panels, and I even enjoy the new ship design screen and ship design "philosophy."

But how can we consider SEV a step forward in graphics if it's so bloody hard to see your spaceships in the main system view?

And the fact that modding can take care of something so basic as the ship-size problem is not good enough. It should be taken care of by the game designer! Not every game buyer searches out mods and feels comfotable installing them. The game should be playable and not headache-inducing right out of the box. The AI should be of rudimentary competence, and you should be able to look at the screen and play the game without your eyes watering. Period.

[Noble713]

Santiago said:
Finally found where to change it. the scale factor for all ships is at .01. Each shipclass is different and has to be set individually and then checked to see if you personally like it for each race and each ship class. Very time consuming and convoluted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif .02 or .03 seems best to start at- no big changes or you get a giant ship. File is Ships_Xfileclasses.txt under Empires/race specific folders



Does that only affect the size of the ships in system view, or in tactical combat as well?

[Captain Kwok]

I've requested a system display option in have small-medium-large for the in-system ship display. Cross your fingers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif