SE:V Poll

[Slick]

Poll of SE:V prospective buyers.

[Ragnarok-X]

Very good poll with enough diversity in the possible answers.

[Gandalf Parker]

Except that Ive already bought the game (but would rather not vote that way). And there is also not one for "I think SEV went the wrong direction completely".

I was wondering if it was too soon to poll the question of whether they should be an SEV forum.

[Phoenix-D]

How did you already buy the game?

[Gandalf Parker]

I pre-ordered it with the SEIV freebie.
(didnt I?)
That makes it already bought, even if not received.

[Santiago]

Interesting resuults so far

[Phoenix-D]

I think its really amusing that "SEV should not be released right now" and "Yes, I'd buy it based on the demo" are leading their catagories. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[capnq]

Gandalf Parker said: I was wondering if it was too soon to poll the question of whether they should be an SEV forum.

Why would Shrapnel, which no longer publishes SE IV or V, bother to split this forum into separate ones? This forum wouldn't even exist if it didn't generate so much traffic. The only other forum Shrapnel still has for a game it no longer publishes is the Dungeon Odyssey archive.

[Slick]

Nobody is completely satisfied to date.

[se5a]

I'm hoping they will hold off on a boxed version and releace a download version only. fy thinks it's wishfull thinking, but it makes sense to do something like that to me.

if people download it, they are more likely to be happy getting patches for it, if people buy a boxed version they are more likely to be unhappy if it has bugs.

[Phoenix-D]

Slick said:
Nobody is completely satisfied to date.



Well, given what you said for the last item I don't think a single game in my collection would count for that.

And I've been playing since 1991 or so!

[PDF]

Gandalf Parker said:
Except that Ive already bought the game (but would rather not vote that way). And there is also not one for "I think SEV went the wrong direction completely".

I was wondering if it was too soon to poll the question of whether they should be an SEV forum.



Which "wrong direction" ? SE5 is 90% SE4 concept- and gameplay-wise, do you refer to the new move to 3D ?
Although I'm not happy with the UI I still find the new graphics much better than SE4s, which looked like a spreadsheet more than a game at (numerous) times ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

And the SE5 forum is here isn't it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[StarShadow]

I'm curious also, what do you mean by 'wrong direction'?
As far as the new graphics go, in my opinion it's mostly fluff, I would have been completely content with SE4 graphics. In fact, I'm hoping that at some point there will be either a mod (if the UI is moddable), or an option for a classic(SE4) UI.

[Black_Knyght]

Gandalf Parker said:
Except that Ive already bought the game (but would rather not vote that way). <font color="red">And there is also not one for "I think SEV went the wrong direction completely"</font>.

I was wondering if it was too soon to poll the question of whether they should be an SEV forum.




You said it, Brother.....

[Xrati]

The game will ultimately be judged by the "good" points vs the "bad" point. If there are more good points, then you could still play the game and enjoy it. If the "bad" points are really bad then even "one" could be annoying and overshadow all the good values. I have many games that play well but have annoying points to them. Still, once you know of them and how to play around them it does detract from the game a little bit, BUT not to the point where the game is unplayable. This is a choice we all make in every game we play. SEIV has many problems with it still, yet they are small problems that don't affect the game play. Some of the posts I've read about SEV state that the game is just not ready.

[RonGianti]

Xrati said:
Some of the posts I've read about SEV state that the game is just not ready.



I still think that this should not be labeled as a Demo, but as a Public Beta.

I'm loving it, but since I'm a veteran SEIV player, its a little easier for me. I'd hate to see someone walk away from the "Demo" thinking that its final, since as we all know, Malfador doesn't ever stop fixing things...

[Gandalf Parker]

PDF said:

Gandalf Parker said:
Except that Ive already bought the game (but would rather not vote that way). And there is also not one for "I think SEV went the wrong direction completely".

I was wondering if it was too soon to poll the question of whether they should be an SEV forum.



Which "wrong direction" ? SE5 is 90% SE4 concept- and gameplay-wise, do you refer to the new move to 3D ?
Although I'm not happy with the UI I still find the new graphics much better than SE4s, which looked like a spreadsheet more than a game at (numerous) times ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

And the SE5 forum is here isn't it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



I would rather have seen an improved SEIV game (AI, UI, modding, etc) rather than an eye-candy bloated SEV game. Thats just my opinion but I feel that the scren is full of pretty pictures which slow down the game and make it harder to play at a decent speed. I also wonder if the 3D thing might not slow down the creation of new races which is one of the things I loved about SEIV was having something like 300 races in it. And giant maps (als0 modded in later by players). The SEIV out-of-the-box was a very tiney game, almost a demo itself, compared to what the player mods turned it into.

As for the forums, thats exactly my point. I would rather that the SEIV forums NOT become the SEV forum since Im beginning to doubt whether SEIV will die off now.

And I think Shrapnel would support the creation of such a forum. The fact that this forum has traffic is not really a selling point. The load and archiving of this forum is something that just makes me more appreciative that Shrapnel keeps these things running for its ex-products.

[Phoenix-D]

SE5 can have much bigger maps than SE4. Same number of systems in a galaxy, but each system can be ridiclously huge if you want to do it that way- the system sizes are definable in settings.txt.

The AI doesn't seem to be much improved over SE4, but SE5's equivlent of the TDM pack should be much better, given the improved access to the AI.

[boran_blok]

Phoenix-D said:
I think its really amusing that "SEV should not be released right now" and "Yes, I'd buy it based on the demo" are leading their catagories. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Well I voted that, because I would buy it no matter how bad the state it is released in. Because I know it'll be good in the end. But I wouldnt want to see it released if it is in the state the demo is in right now. Loads and loads of really visible bugs, you can have bugs, but obveous bugs really gotta go before you release, I played the demo for 1 hour yesterday and I found about 4 very obvious bugs. Now depending on what build the demo originated from (it's in general an older build than what will be released)

[se5a]

PDF said:
Although I'm not happy with the UI I still find the new graphics much better than SE4s, which looked like a spreadsheet more than a game at (numerous) times ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif




OK I REALLY REALLY HATE this "spreadsheets in space is bad" thing. it's the reason aaron went to bloated UI and graphics crap in the first place! a spreadsheet is used PRECICELY because you can get a lot of information in a small easy to see space.
spreadsheets are GOOD!!!111oneoneone

now where the hell did my happy place go...

[RonGianti]

se5a said:

OK I REALLY REALLY HATE this "spreadsheets in space is bad" thing. it's the reason aaron went to bloated UI and graphics crap in the first place!



I like a nice spreadsheet view for managing my empire, but I like the direction SEV is going, graphic wise. I like the "bloated" look. It gives a nice feel to the game. It could be tweaked, but its much nicer on the eyes, imho.

[se5a]

I would prefer to have all the information infront of me with a not so nice graphic. that way I don't have to click 101 buttons just to find what I want.
the current weapons comparison sheet is not nice, there's too much information missing.

[Phoenix-D]

The only thing the SEIV screen shows that the default SE5 screen does not is the firing rate. Of course, the SEIV screen doesn't show damage types, chance to hit at all ranges, or what the weapon can target, either. The SE5 screen does, but you have to flip to another screen.

[se5a]

fire rate is very important.
it should really show the damage/kt/second ratio there too.

[Phoenix-D]

True, but it *is* there, just on a screen with the other information- some of which is just as important. I certainly won't object if a way is found to cram it into the main screen, mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Barnacle Bill]

I want the game released ASAP, because I'm enjoying it enough in its current state that if it was out I'd probably never play SEIV again. I just want it fully unlocked.

I'm 100% sure that Aaron will continue to support it with patches and/or expansions until at least whenever SEVI comes out.

I'm also 100% sure that we'll soon see the equivalent of the TDM modpack (which is pretty much the starting point for my "house rules" mod anyway).

I honestly don't care about the graphics, and the UI may not be perfect but I'm still having fun...

I think the new combat system is highly superior to SEIV because it eliminates the gaminess of a square grid and "floats" (no corners in space).

I think the "fog of war" on the system map is a great improvement to the operational level, and if the system size really can be modded to be significantly larger then there is a potential for a real search phase of naval battles (with an important role for fast cheap recon units, etc..).

I could go on, but in general the changes to the meat of the game (not graphics or UI) are mostly improvements. It will get better, as SEIV did for 6 years, but I'd rather play it than SEIV now. That's why if I could pop out to Gamestop tonight &amp; bring it home, I would.

[frightlever]

"I'm 100% sure that Aaron will continue to support it with patches and/or expansions until at least whenever SEVI comes out."

Maybe. But will he do it in his spare time for no remuneration? The rights were sold to Strategy First so they could quite possibly pull an Atari and not fund patches beyond fixing bugs. No hate please, I'm just saying.

EDIT: found this quote off a Firing Squad interview so maybe this won't be a problem.

" FiringSquad: Following its release, what future game projects does Malfador and Strategy First have planned?

Aaron Hall: We haven’t quite decided yet. For quite a few months we’ll still be working on SE5. There are more things to add to support modding. We also want to release detailed modding documents and a map editor."

[Phoenix-D]

None of the SE4 patches really got Aaron any income, either, aside from increased sales from an improved product and SE4 Gold.

[Artaud]

Gandalf Parker said:
...I would rather have seen an improved SEIV game (AI, UI, modding, etc) rather than an eye-candy bloated SEV game. Thats just my opinion but I feel that the screen is full of pretty pictures which slow down the game and make it harder to play at a decent speed. I also wonder if the 3D thing might not slow down the creation of new races which is one of the things I loved about SEIV ... And giant maps (als0 modded in later by players)...



I agree with you totally and completely.

Give me the expanded R&amp;D, expanded diplomacy, "ordance" and a couple other of SEV's features, and a souped up SEIV "look," and you've got the perfect game, as far as I'm concerned.

SEV looks like a game that is trying to draw in the "oh look, it's 3D!" RTS/FPS crowd. People who buy games because the "Gamer DoodZ" website said it's the "Best-looking 4X game I've seen all year!!" and then want the cheat codes the day the game comes out so they can "beat" it faster and then move on to the "hottest" new military FPS/RTS game.

I'm being sarcastic here, but only slightly.

[Phoenix-D]

..you do realize that most of the UI problems would be the same if it was 2d, right?

[Barnacle Bill]

frightlever said:
Maybe. But will he do it in his spare time for no remuneration? The rights were sold to Strategy First so they could quite possibly pull an Atari and not fund patches beyond fixing bugs. No hate please, I'm just saying.




Strategy First published several Paradox games, yet Paradox also produces free patches for years (until the title is replaced by a sequel) like Aaron. The principle way that Strategy First gummed up the gears in Paradox games was in the early days when there was a separate executable for North America so patches would languish in Strategy First QA for days/weeks after the Euros got theirs. Eventually Paradox went to global executables even on the older games still being supported, and that stopped being a problem. So, while Strategy First isn't my favorite game published, I don't think they are going to force any major change in Aaron's tradition of long-term support.

Basically, there are not very many companies doing detailed high-depth thinking-man's strategy games, and it is a nitch market compared to consoles or even PC RTS, First Person Shooters, etc... The ones that do, and their star designers, acquire a following that they don't dare disappoint. The "usual suspects" are around for years. You see that on this board for MM and on their own board for Paradox. I think switching to the mass market technique (shove it out the door unready, never patch it) would be suicide in this environment. I suspect that even the MBA types understand this...

[Barnacle Bill]

Gandalf Parker said:
I also wonder if the 3D thing might not slow down the creation of new races which is one of the things I loved about SEIV was having something like 300 races in it.



I think this is a legitimate concern, because it certainly worked that way in the Civ franchise. In Civ2 I could and did roll my own unit graphics all the time, whereas in Civ3/4 you need 3D animation SW and I don't have time to learn it.

However, eventually the available Civ3 unit library had everything I could imagine so eventually the issue went away. Looks like CiV4 is on well underway to the same destination.

[Artaud]

Barnacle Bill said:
I think the "fog of war" on the system map is a great improvement to the operational level, and if the system size really can be modded to be significantly larger then there is a potential for a real search phase of naval battles (with an important role for fast cheap recon units, etc..).



I like the "fog of war" as well, but I think it will make SE a smaller, slower game. You'll spend more time exploring each and every individual system, and/or researching sensors, and less time expanding.

I like building ships and doing long-range exploring, not hitting the turn-finished button over and over until I research decent sensors, or sending a ship to explore every hex of a system just in case an optimal planet is there.

I think some have said you can turn off the fog of war feature by modding. It should be an option when you start the game, as is the case with most computer games I've seen that have FOW.

And bigger systems--no, I don't want this. The way it is now, when you zoom out to see the entire system, the planets look horrible and your ships look like ants, when you can see them at all.

I know it's not "realistic" to have ships that appear to be half the size of planets, but this is a game, after all. What's the point of building a navy if you can't watch your ships pass through the system?

Ultimately, it's Aaron's game, and his decision about what direction he wants to take it, so I wish him luck.

I'm still "wait and see" about SEV, but from what I've seen so far maybe this new direction for the SE franchise is not for me.

[Barnacle Bill]

Artaud said:
SEV looks like a game that is trying to draw in the "oh look, it's 3D!" RTS/FPS crowd.



RT or not, I think the new combat system is a great improvement over the old one.

Yes, I'd prefer a turned based system with hexes, SFB-like proportional movement &amp; turn modes.

However, what it is is better than what it was.

[Phoenix-D]

It IS an option when you start the game, actually. You just can't use that option in the demo.

The scrolling problem is probably why the system sizes are what they are. I was just pointing out that the option was there.

[Artaud]

se5a said:
OK I REALLY REALLY HATE this "spreadsheets in space is bad" thing. it's the reason aaron went to bloated UI and graphics crap in the first place! a spreadsheet is used PRECICELY because you can get a lot of information in a small easy to see space.
spreadsheets are GOOD!!!



Well, I also like what lots of people call the "spreadsheet" look in games. I'm a grownup and I want to play computer games about managing (even micro-managing) resources and people. I want to take my time and analyze stuff. I want to pretend I'm running a government and directing the destiny of an entire race. I want to name individual ships.

SE is not a "shoot stuff, blow stuff up" game. It's not a RTS and it's not a FPS.

There will be SE fans who play those types of games (I have and sometimes still do), but for the most part your average FPS/RTS junkie is going to think a game like SE is BORING. The turn-based resource management genre is on the decline, as a trip to any game store will show.

Future incarnations of SE may try to be less like spreadsheets, but they will move away from what many of us consider to be SE--and what many of us find to be so addictive about SE.

[Barnacle Bill]

Artaud said:
I like the "fog of war" as well, but I think it will make SE a smaller, slower game. You'll spend more time exploring each and every individual system, and/or researching sensors, and less time expanding.




Edit - I somehow erased what I wrote here... Actually, I think it will make the galaxy seem bigger because it will take a lot longer to explore it all.


Artaud said:
And bigger systems--no, I don't want this. The way it is now, when you zoom out to see the entire system, the planets look horrible and your ships look like ants, when you can see them at all.

I know it's not "realistic" to have ships that appear to be half the size of planets, but this is a game, after all. What's the point of building a navy if you can't watch your ships pass through the system?




I'm not talking about graphics. I couldn't care less about that. I grew up with cardboard counters. Blips like a radar screen would be fine by me...

I'm talking about a real search phase, where it takes many turns to cross the system and sensor range is less than one turn's movement range, so you have to find the enemy before you can fight them, and if he spreads out to search more ground the larger force risks being defeated in detail. This creates the opportunity for an operational situation like Juteland or Midway. That's what I want!

BTW, that's the direction Starfire (the board game that originally inspired SE) eventually went. Except for warp point assaults, you spend a lot of time manuevering around on the sysyem map and combat only happens when fleets are in the same system hex.

[Captain Kwok]

Phoenix-D said:
..you do realize that most of the UI problems would be the same if it was 2d, right?

Nicely said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Artaud]

Barnacle Bill said:
Edit - I somehow erased what I wrote here... Actually, I think it will make the galaxy seem bigger because it will take a lot longer to explore it all....

I'm not talking about graphics. I couldn't care less about that. I grew up with cardboard counters. Blips like a radar screen would be fine by me...

I'm talking about a real search phase, where it takes many turns to cross the system and sensor range is less than one turn's movement range, so you have to find the enemy before you can fight them, and if he spreads out to search more ground the larger force risks being defeated in detail. This creates the opportunity for an operational situation like Juteland or Midway. That's what I want!...




I'm a fan of "the more systems the better." I like running my own territory, exploring new territory, and fighting long wars over the other races' territories.

Lots of systems. Strategic depth.

You must be in my age-range, Bill. I grew up on cardboard counters too.

[Barnacle Bill]

Artaud said:
I'm a fan of "the more systems the better." I like running my own territory, exploring new territory, and fighting long wars over the other races' territories.

Lots of systems. Strategic depth.




Agree 100%. Always modded SEIV to support 255 systems (254 in the early days when 255 caused issues), and set up my games to maximum on both "player" &amp; "neutral" races (I'd love an SE-type game with a galaxy big enough for a number of races in the order of magnitude of countries in EU).

However, in a finite universe slower expansion speed =&gt; a prolonged experience.


Artaud said:
You must be in my age-range, Bill. I grew up on cardboard counters too.



Born 1959, first wargame AH's "Blitzkrieg" (bought at JC Penny's c. 1972), started playing "Stellar Conquest", SFB &amp; "Starfire" (and imagining a game that combined the best aspects of them all) c. 1979. Bought my first computer c.1985 to play flight sims, but very soon discovered SSG's "Reach for the Stars" (the 8-bit version, which was essentially "Computer Stellar Conquest" - not the more modern release). Space 4Xers are my true love. Been playing SE since SEIII.

[Santiago]

Artaud said:

Barnacle Bill said:
I think the "fog of war" on the system map is a great improvement to the operational level, and if the system size really can be modded to be significantly larger then there is a potential for a real search phase of naval battles (with an important role for fast cheap recon units, etc..).



I like the "fog of war" as well, but I think it will make SE a smaller, slower game. You'll spend more time exploring each and every individual system, and/or researching sensors, and less time expanding.

I like building ships and doing long-range exploring, not hitting the turn-finished button over and over until I research decent sensors, or sending a ship to explore every hex of a system just in case an optimal planet is there.

I think some have said you can turn off the fog of war feature by modding. It should be an option when you start the game, as is the case with most computer games I've seen that have FOW.

And bigger systems--no, I don't want this. The way it is now, when you zoom out to see the entire system, the planets look horrible and your ships look like ants, when you can see them at all.

I know it's not "realistic" to have ships that appear to be half the size of planets, but this is a game, after all. What's the point of building a navy if you can't watch your ships pass through the system?

Ultimately, it's Aaron's game, and his decision about what direction he wants to take it, so I wish him luck.

I'm still "wait and see" about SEV, but from what I've seen so far maybe this new direction for the SE franchise is not for me.




I like the fog of war
Additional Orders- survey system

[Fyron]

Gandalf Parker said:
I also wonder if the 3D thing might not slow down the creation of new races which is one of the things I loved about SEIV was having something like 300 races in it.

I don't; SE4 had a rather slow buildup of ship sets... It wasn't until just a few years ago when shipset count got so high (around/after Gold). The starting community of SE5 is larger than it was for SE4, so there are bound to be more graphics people around with SE5 early days than SE4. A fair majority of original (not screen captures of SW ships or whatever) SE4 shipset authors used normal 3d apps to make their sets, not Doga. Thing is, most of them only made a few sets, so they tend to be overwhelmed in the volume of work by, say, Atrocities, who only used Doga.

Artaud said:
It should be an option when you start the game...

It is there, in the Game Options tab.

[LordAxel]

Least favorite feature has to be the tech levels. Fairly annoying that its pretty much never ending. Nice to have a top level to reach

[StarShadow]

There is a top level for all the techs, in most cases it seems to be level 100.

[Captain Kwok]

LordAxel said:
Least favorite feature has to be the tech levels. Fairly annoying that its pretty much never ending. Nice to have a top level to reach

If only there was a mod that addressed this issue... hmm. Yeah, it turns out "infinite" tech is not nearly as cool as people think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Black_Knyght]

Gandalf Parker said:

PDF said:

Gandalf Parker said:
Except that Ive already bought the game (but would rather not vote that way). And there is also not one for "I think SEV went the wrong direction completely".

I was wondering if it was too soon to poll the question of whether they should be an SEV forum.



Which "wrong direction" ? SE5 is 90% SE4 concept- and gameplay-wise, do you refer to the new move to 3D ?
Although I'm not happy with the UI I still find the new graphics much better than SE4s, which looked like a spreadsheet more than a game at (numerous) times ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

And the SE5 forum is here isn't it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



I would rather have seen an improved SEIV game (AI, UI, modding, etc) rather than an eye-candy bloated SEV game. Thats just my opinion but I feel that the scren is full of pretty pictures which slow down the game and make it harder to play at a decent speed. I also wonder if the 3D thing might not slow down the creation of new races which is one of the things I loved about SEIV was having something like 300 races in it. And giant maps (als0 modded in later by players). The SEIV out-of-the-box was a very tiney game, almost a demo itself, compared to what the player mods turned it into.

As for the forums, thats exactly my point. I would rather that the SEIV forums NOT become the SEV forum since Im beginning to doubt whether SEIV will die off now.

And I think Shrapnel would support the creation of such a forum. The fact that this forum has traffic is not really a selling point. The load and archiving of this forum is something that just makes me more appreciative that Shrapnel keeps these things running for its ex-products.




Just a quick couple of comments-

A) I'm thinking <font color="blue">GP</font> may be onto to something here, since it seems that the lean here is towards SEV, shouldn't there be a place to discuss just SEIV if you haven't thrown in the towel on it or put it aside in favor of SEV?


B) Again, an example here of leaning against anyone not completely in favor of SEV. <font color="blue">GP</font>'s opinion is that SEV went the wrong way for his likes. HIS opinion, and as valid as anyone else's. And he's promptly corrected.

C) I disagree (just my opinion !!!) that "Gameplay-wise" the new SEV is "90%" the same as SEIV. Seems to me that nearly everything from ship design to actual on-screen game play is different. The concepts may be the same, but the actual gameplay is far different.

[Fyron]

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill... I do honestly think the 3d shipset thing is being blown out of proportion by some people. It isn't that big of a change for most shipset authors. It has absolutely nothing to do with "leaning on anyone not completely in favor of SE5"... In fact, if you review more of my recent postings, you will see numerous complaints. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Seriously though, if you want forums that will always be devoted to SE4, you could always use SEnet:

http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-c3.html
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-30.html

[StarShadow]

Maybe it wasn't your intention, but that sounds a lot like 'if you don't like it you can go somewhere else', which isn't exactly a friendly thing to say.

[se5a]

actualy no starshadow, that was an slightly subtle plug.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Mephisto]

*/Moderator mode on*

Please keep it civil. To each it's own opinion. I'm sure no one disagrees about this. Please remember that you can read something much more unfriendly as it was meant to be when it was written.

*/Moderator mode off*

[Fyron]

StarShadow:
That was not my intention. BK already posts over there anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

se5a:
Shush! They will find me out! :eyes shift rapidly side to side:

[StarShadow]

LOL!

[Black_Knyght]

Imperator Fyron said:
I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill... I do honestly think the 3d shipset thing is being blown out of proportion by some people. It isn't that big of a change for most shipset authors. It has absolutely nothing to do with "leaning on anyone not completely in favor of SE5"... In fact, if you review more of my recent postings, you will see numerous complaints. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Seriously though, if you want forums that will always be devoted to SE4, you could always use SEnet:

http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-c3.html
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-30.html



Mountain or molehill, I know what I like, and what I don't.

The "3D shipset thing" isn't what I said at all. No, I don't like the entire 3D format it went to - ships, planets, solar systems, whatever. If I'd personally been interested in that, there are much better 3D environment games I'd have gone with. And some of those "numerous complaints" are just like the ones of mine you just shot down. I was refering to, and seconding, <font color="blue">GP</font>'s suggestion to create a SEIV section, since obviously SEV has overwhelmingly swamped the forum as it stands now.

And as to a general lean against dissenting points of view - "Seriously though, if you want forums that will always be devoted to SE4, you could always use SEnet:" is a pretty good example. That statement seems to shout "If I don't like the dominating topic here, I can just pack up and go elsewhere". And obviously that's not my point of view alone, as <font color="green">StarShadow</font>'s comment proves. I don't beleive the overall tone is deliberately negative, but I do see it as being there just the same.

Honestly, I think overall SEV is a long-awaited treasure for some people, and missed the marked big-time for others. And it is certainly seems to be drawing a very subtle line in the sand...

[Fyron]

I think there has been some serious miscommunication here.

[Matryx]

Calm down guys. Fyron's (And others) stance has never seemed to come across as a "like it or shut up/move on".... he runs SpaceEmpires.net and provides the SE4 forums over there (as well as others) so you can hardly try and draw the conclusion that he's trying to oust the SE4 lot - if that were the case I'd expect him to shut down those forums for a start...

A lot of people seem to be assuming others are either anti-SE5 or anti-SE4.... those who have been around long enough will know better, and those who haven't should remember that this is a very relaxed community and barring one incident about 6/7 years ago I can't think of any dramabombs I've witnessed. Sit back, take a breath, and read it all again without assumptions.

At the moment, of course SE5 (Demo) is going to be in the limelight... it's less than a week (ok, slightly more than a week) out of the door and everyone's going to have their chance to say "oooo toy" and make their observations - in a week or two when new Q/A have been dealt with, people have made up their minds, and the demo has been explored to it's fullest you should start to see conversation returning to SE4 - this is after all an SE4 and SE5 forum.

In other news, if you're feeling a lack of love for SE4 threads at the moment, start one - or stick to an existing one - popular threads will sit on top and you can just skip those you aren't interested in.

[Kamog]

Well, I played the demo for a week before voting. As I spent more time playing the demo, I started to like it more and more. In the beginning, I didn't like it much because of the awkward user interface and it was hard to do the things that were easy in SEIV. But once I got used to the interface, it stopped bothering me and I liked the demo more.

But there sure are a lot of problems! There is no way all these bugs can be fixed by October 16th. Regardless, I still plan to buy the game as soon as it comes out and trust that the bugs will be fixed in patches. I'm going to buy the boxed version from the local store, not the download version.

[FaultyAirlock]

I'm happy with the game as it stands, but I simply couldn't buy it in the state the demo is in... too many bugs. I'm hoping the really bad ones will be taken care of, though.

Some of the interface elements could use a change, too; when you click on a sector it really shouldn't auto-select all of them, and I'd greatly prefer the "click to select one, shift-click to toggle selection" method over the "click to toggle selection" that's currently in place... these are both pretty minor concerns though.

edit: Also, regarding a lot of the core gameplay changes... I'm pretty positive about them. A few of them actually are things I really wished were in SEIV:
- Fog of war. Space is a deep, dark place - even in a star system - and the idea of having to survey a system just seems right to me. I also like the strategic implications; no longer can you automatically detect every ship that's in the same system.
- Real-time combat. While I liked SEIV's turn-based combat, it was just too simple for my tastes... not having the ability to pre-empt enemy actions (eg. Jagged Alliance) results in a large 'gaminess' factor where you can dance out of weapon range while freely attacking.

Just my two cents.

[Gandalf Parker]

Imperator Fyron said:

Seriously though, if you want forums that will always be devoted to SE4, you could always use SEnet:

http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-c3.html
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-30.html



???
The forums that were SEIV when SEIV sold here, and has all the SEIV information archived, should be the ones that move to a new location? I have no problem with an SEV forum being created here but I dont think the SEIV conversations moving is a good idea.

And isnt that your domain? The SEIV conversations should switch to a forum where you are moderator? Altho Im sure you see no problem with that, dont be surprised if others do.

Gandalf Parker

[AminMaalouf]

My opinon, SE 5 should not be rushed out and only later be polished because that could hurt the sale numbers. Friends of the brand could possibly live with a product that grows with the patches as they have SE 4 in the meanwhile but the rest of the world ... .

[Artaud]

FaultyAirlock said:
- Fog of war. Space is a deep, dark place - even in a star system - and the idea of having to survey a system just seems right to me.



I'd prefer limited fog of war. You enter a system and know where the planets are, but don't know exactly what their characteristics are until you fly closer.

[Will]

Gandalf Parker said:
The forums that were SEIV when SEIV sold here, and has all the SEIV information archived, should be the ones that move to a new location? I have no problem with an SEV forum being created here but I dont think the SEIV conversations moving is a good idea.


He wasn't suggesting moving the archived information. He said if you want to visit a forum that is devoted to SEIV and only SEIV, there are places you can go for that already, that don't require change here. As was already noted, this was a plug on Fyron's part; although on the subtlety part, I think it has all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the skull, but that's just me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[FaultyAirlock]

Artaud said:
I'd prefer limited fog of war. You enter a system and know where the planets are, but don't know exactly what their characteristics are until you fly closer.


You're right, that would be a great way to do it. It would give you a vague idea of the makeup of the system and let you know where to send scouts, but still maintain the foggy nature.

[Puke]

Gandalf Parker said:Altho Im sure you see no problem with that, dont be surprised if others do.

Gandalf Parker



what I like about the SE forums at Shrapnel, is that the decent folk here dont participate in mudslinging. Especially after cooler heads have defused the issue...

[Gandalf Parker]

Puke said:

Gandalf Parker said:Altho Im sure you see no problem with that, dont be surprised if others do.

Gandalf Parker



what I like about the SE forums at Shrapnel, is that the decent folk here dont participate in mudslinging. Especially after cooler heads have defused the issue...



You are correct. I apologize.

[Sivran]

I voted for the second option on each when I voted on the poll, but after spending more time with the demo I'm growing more and more tempted to do the pre-order thing.

[Major_SNAFU]

How do you see the results of the poll? Am I missing somethign really basic here?

THanks!

[Major_SNAFU]

Phoenix-D said:
I think its really amusing that "SEV should not be released right now" and "Yes, I'd buy it based on the demo" are leading their catagories. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



In other words what "they" are saying is "Love the idea, sounds great, but needs a good deal more polishing before I plunk down my money"

I have to say from all of my readings here I am moving towards this camp - and I really don't want to. But I am growing more and more concerned about what I will be getting for my $. I've had SEIV since it came out, never played the series before that. Very impressive, great support - but I am very concerned about the comments from some of the longer-time players who I understand to be saying that the UI is dodgy, etc. I have little doubt about the richness of the game under the hood - but if it is a click-fest and hard to work with, then that diminishes it overall from my perspective. But I haven't been able to successfully download the demo yet, so I am depending wholly on what I read.

[Kamog]

Major_SNAFU said:
How do you see the results of the poll? Am I missing somethign really basic here?

THanks!

The results will be shown after you voted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[RonGianti]

Major_SNAFU said:
But I haven't been able to successfully download the demo yet, so I am depending wholly on what I read.



The UI took some getting used to since I've had my face buried in the SEIV UI for 6 years. Once I figured out how to customize it, I LOVE it. I love the little flags over the 3d objects (once I made them smaller).

Now that I am used to the interface, I've tried playing a game of SEIV and SEV is clearly better imho.

I'd get it downloaded, expect a bit of a learning curve, then decide for yourself. Some of the screaming and crying here has been way out of proportion to the actual difficulty of 1. learning the new UI and 2. customizing the UI. Upgrades could be made to it, but its not as bad as people have made it out to be, so you'll have to see for yourself.

[Katchoo]

I'll be taking a "wait and see" attitude with SEV. The demo's not bad, but it's not drawing me in the way SEIV did at first. Of course, SEIV was really the first 4x space game I had really ever played, so there was a whole "newness" to the experience that isn't present with the SEV demo for me.

I'm sure I'll buy it eventually, but I'm not in any rush.

[aegisx]

I liked the demo. I found out about SE4 late in its life, so I never really got into it too much. That says something about marketing because I was a big moo1 and 2 fan but never heard of it until after galciv came out, go figure.

The 3d engine is nice, watching ship battles was one of the few things I enjoyed about moo3. Add that with the huge potential and it should be great.