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Major_SNAFU
September 28th, 2006, 11:19 AM
I have to say that in catching up on all of the postings on SEV I have a growing concern about it.

Oh, I'll probably still purchase it, but it may stay uninstalled until I see how people are reacting to it.

I'll purchase it to support Malfador, but if there are major issues being reported I won't play it (and become frustrated) until they are addressed.

I would like to see a sort of comprehensive review by one of the "lifers" that doesn't run the risk of dying the "death of a thousand qualifications".

I play mostly single-player. Multiplayer sounds good to me, but my work schedule always seems to torpedo my attemps, sooner or later.

I confidently plopped down my reservation money, and barring a real show-stopper being reported I will buy the game (to support the effort - I do this farily often) - but I would have to honestly say that it is shifting from a "gotta install it and play right now" to a "I'll get it and hold off installing until I seem how it goes."

I don't want to get a bad-tase in my mouth from the get-go. So we will see.

Captain Kwok
September 28th, 2006, 11:28 AM
Although if you've noticed a lot of players who made the early posts are slowly being converted over to SE:V. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Of course that doesn't mean there are not some interface improvements and some bug-fixing that aren't needed. Just that some of the issues was getting used to the changes from SE:IV to SE:V and that a lot features in SE:V are pretty good for play.

Major_SNAFU
September 28th, 2006, 11:37 AM
I have no real doubt about SEV. I just know myself and I can quickly ramp up on the exasperation meter. So it might be better for me to hold off a bit if there are any real clunkers at the get-go.

I also wanted to comment on a number of post where people seem to wish that SEV was really an even more complex SEIV. My general response to this would be, go check out VGA planets. They did exactly that in the last version and a number of people I know quit playing because the level of detail became too overwhelming. But if you really want to manage everything, and I mean nearly everything, then VGA planets4 allows you to do that.

I switched to SEIV from Stars! because Crisium could not develop the necessary $ to keep going. I still think that Stars! propulsion and race design are better than SEIVs, but that's my opinion.

Q
September 28th, 2006, 12:15 PM
For me the decision is quite clear: I buy the game as soon as possible in spite of the imperfections and bugs. But I enjoy playing the demo therefore I am pretty sure I enjoy the full game. Until now I had almost no technical problems and I get more and more used to the interface and displays, which can and should certainly be improved.
However I am also quite sure that I will continue to play SE IV as it will take a long time for SE V to achieve a comparable level of perfection and variety.

Caduceus
September 28th, 2006, 12:51 PM
The interface is growing on me as well, I'll have to see if I can get a topical spray to knock it back a bit.

I have pre-ordered at a local game store, so my money is where my mouth is.

I was frustrated with SE:IV's interface when we first had that, transitioning from SE:III. Unless you have a nearly-identical interface screen for a new version, it always takes a bit to get used to.

narf poit chez BOOM
September 28th, 2006, 03:42 PM
I'm going to wait for the bug reports on the full game. I don't want to get fustrated over it either, so I'll wait till it's playable.

Intimidator
September 28th, 2006, 03:55 PM
Nope, buying ASAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RonGianti
September 28th, 2006, 04:16 PM
I'll buy it immediatly, even if its slightly buggy. Heck, the Demo is buggy, cripled and has a 100 turn limit, and I'm enjoying THAT.

I'd rather not hold off, then have to read here how much fun everyone is having, then have to run down to EBgames, find out that they are out, then order it on the web, have to wait another week for shipping... Then I'm futzing around with the Demo while everyone else is playing the real deal...

arthurtuxedo
September 28th, 2006, 05:31 PM
A lot of people have posted a lot of negative sentiments that were way out of proportion to the actual problems, and as I predicted would happen a couple of times on this board, people were starting to listen to them and get bummed out on the game, even if those problems didn't bother them much before reading those posts. Thankfully, most have gotten used to the new interface and stopped complaining so much, so it looks like my point about SEV being smothered in the cradle by its own fans the way Fallout Tactics was will prove to be happily wrong.

Major_SNAFU
September 28th, 2006, 06:17 PM
So I finally got the demo and installed it. After playing for a bit I will have to throw my hat into the UI needs improvement ring. I won't go into details, but I will say that I missed the clean, crisp SEIV interface. The only thing I didn't like about the SEIV interface is that you can't re-arrange the windows.

I found building a ship to be quite time and click consuming - but I will keep at it and see if it is a perception thing.

I do like the multi-deck thing, although I'm not quite sure I understand the reasons for it.

Phoenix-D
September 28th, 2006, 06:30 PM
Just to have more slots on the ships. That's it.

And the SEIV interface was..er..not crisp. Especially if played at 800x600.

Artaud
September 28th, 2006, 07:39 PM
arthurtuxedo said:
A lot of people have posted a lot of negative sentiments that were way out of proportion to the actual problems



Let's please be respectful of each other's opinions.

My "negative sentiments" were and are NOT "way out of proportion to the actual problems." My negative sentiments are a reflection of ACTUAL PROBLEMS. I think you will find most people who expressed negative things were indicating what they honestly believe to be real, actual, game-frustrating or game-breaking problems.


arthurtuxedo said:Thankfully, most have gotten used to the new interface and stopped complaining so much, so it looks like my point about SEV being smothered in the cradle by its own fans the way Fallout Tactics was will prove to be happily wrong.



Perhaps "most" have gotten used to the new interface. I don't know. I can't and won't try to speak for most people in this forum. It's a bit forward for you to attempt to do so.

But I HAVE NOT gotten used to the new interface. I don't like it. I tried to like it. But I don't. I set the demo aside and then went back to it. Nothing. And it's not just a matter of 'liking' it or not--in some respects (the ship size, for example), it's hard on the eyes. The need to zoom in or zoom out to see the ships or see the system is a real hassle. It's more trouble than it's worth. 3D? So what.

I have not posted any more complaints about the SEV demo out of respect for those who do like it or have come to like it. I expressed my own opinion about it several times in several threads. I said what I had to say. I'm sure you and others do not want to hear me endlessly repeating myself.

There's no need for me to make the same complaints over and over and over. I don't have the desire nor the energy to come here day after day and argue about a computer game.

Besides, others have said the same things much more forcefully and in considerably more detail than I did.

I hope you are not implying that people should only post comments about SEV if they are positive comments. I hope you understand that many of us who have been posting here for years and years and have less-than-positive things to say about SEV are not just complainers. We really, REALLY want(ed) SEV to be a better game than SEIV. We want(ed) to have a great game to play and we wanted Aaron to be well-rewarded for his hard work.

As far as SEV in its current form goes, Aaron can make changes or not. It's his game and it's not up to me. If you like SEV, then great. Maybe someday I will change my mind about it. But for now, it's just not my cup of tea.

Phoenix-D
September 28th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Arg.

I'm going to repeat this again. You don't need to see the ships!

If you -want- to break your fingers on an aethetic issue, that's fine, but I find it really amusing considering how many complaints were made over the move to 3d being about "flashy graphics not good gameplay."

Artaud
September 28th, 2006, 08:41 PM
Phoenix-D said:
I'm going to repeat this again. You don't need to see the ships!



Why not?

Maybe you don't, but I do. What's the point of playing a game about space empires and conquering the universe with fleets of ships if you can't see the ships? Half the reason for downloading the myriad of shipsets available for SEIV is playing with those beautiful ships!

One of the coolest things about playing the Klingons in Atrocities' Star Trek mod is...the ships! I grew up watching Trek in the 1960s and I'll tell you, I always thought the Klingons had better ships than the Federation. The Romulans too.

Now that I'm all grown up I'm tickled pink that I can come home from work and move Klingon (or Illuminati, or Crugarian, etc.) battle bruisers across my computer screen and have a few moments of fantasy relaxation far from the RL world. I love watching my ships pass through a new system. I love watching them fight!

What's the point of "3D" graphics and warp points that undulate and rotatable system views when you no longer have the pleasure of watching your ships? They might as well just be represented by a couple pixels of light.

If you don't think it's important to see the ships, that's perfectly fine. To each his own. But perhaps you should say "I don't need to see the ships" (meaning you yourself don't need to see them). For me, seeing my ships is a big deal, and not seeing them any more is a step backward, and a game-breaker.

But if that's the way it's going to be for SEV, that's a design decision and that's OK. My opinion is just my opinion. This is not a debating society. I'm not going to change your mind and it's not my place to even try. You certainly are not going to change mine. Everybody is free to buy the game or not.

And here I am repeating things I've said before in other threads...

Phoenix-D
September 28th, 2006, 08:51 PM
I get that you dislike not being able to see the ships on the system screen (never mind that they're bigger in combat, and in the sector view).

The point is that is NOT a UI issue. Its a bit like saying the game is bugged because Null Space Projectors are seekers.

Santiago
September 28th, 2006, 08:57 PM
If you don't need to see the ships, that's great. But some of us do and its not an aesthetic issue. Why bother having flashy 3d graphics if you can't see them and enjoy the game?
Why should modders be bothered to make shipsets (which are very popular) if all you can see is some small dot when viewing the entire system. Maybe MM should shrink the planets -don't need to see them either.

I know you can change the shipsize but its time consuming and tedious. The graphics seem way out of proportion imo.

Atrocities
September 28th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Major_SNAFU said:
I have to say that in catching up on all of the postings on SEV I have a growing concern about it.





Don't be concerned. The game is only going to get better.

Artaud
September 28th, 2006, 08:59 PM
I get that you dislike not being able to see the ships on the system screen (never mind that they're bigger in combat, and in the sector view).

The point is that is NOT a UI issue. Its a bit like saying the game is bugged because Null Space Projectors are seekers.



That is ONE thing I dislike. And I'm not a complete idiot, Phoenix; I know that ship size itself is not a UI issue.

But the need to zoom in and out to see them IS a UI issue. And there are other things about the UI that I strongly dislike.

But others have said everything I could possibly say, in great detail.

I don't like the game. Maybe you do. More power to you. I don't want to argue about it.

Phoenix-D
September 28th, 2006, 09:03 PM
Santiago said:
If you don't need to see the ships, that's great. But some of us do and its not an aesthetic issue. Why bother having flashy 3d graphics if you can't see them and enjoy the game?



Hey, you just defined an aethetic issue! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Or at least what I *meant* when I said that.

And that's all I'm going to say about that, other than to note that I hope you never encounter drones in SE5 combat (oh dear are those things tiny).

Captain Kwok
September 28th, 2006, 09:07 PM
I've made a suggestion to Aaron to allow for a display setting under Empire Options to make the ships bigger on the system map. Combined with a reduction in the flag size - it would make a big difference.

But it is a valid concern... I certainly like to see the ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Black_Knyght
September 28th, 2006, 09:12 PM
Bug or not, he has an interesting point.

What's the point of playing a game about "space empires", with "spaceships", if your not able to see them in space.

Might as well just use an icon to represent them and not bother with shipsets at all, IMO. But then, that kills some of the fun of the game.

Kind of like not being able to see the ships does....

Santiago
September 28th, 2006, 09:19 PM
Its a playbility issue causing uneeded frustration. Even though I like SEV more after playing the demo a few more times- in its present state its not worth buying it at this time. Not for just this issue but all of them as a whole. I hve built the drones. They are way too small. But I think some should wait for SEVI: the text based version. no graphics at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Phoenix-D
September 28th, 2006, 09:20 PM
So, STARS minus a few bitmaps? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Major_SNAFU
September 28th, 2006, 09:26 PM
Phoenix-D said:
Just to have more slots on the ships. That's it.

And the SEIV interface was..er..not crisp. Especially if played at 800x600.



Crisp isn't perhaps the correct term. I liked the look, it was spartan and futuristic.

For instance, in the ship design UI it felt to me like I had to move my mouse a great deal more, and over longer distances to put componenets on my ships.

So for 'crisp' perhaps I was really looking for 'efficient'.

I don't mind the more cartoonish look over all, but I wouldn't mind the mouse cursor being about 1/4th the size it is.

Anyway, I can now see what some people have been on about concerning hard to see through the icons. I can live with that because you can tilt the map to see 'under' things. Cumbersome, yes, but not a deal-breaker.

Returning to ship building, does anyone know if you can, say, hold down a key and retain the component currently selected so as to quickly put multiples of the same componenet on a ship. If this is possible, a good part of my concern with this specific UI goes away.

Thanks,

Santiago
September 28th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Pretty much and I still play STARS every once in while. Great game. But there's little point in arguing it. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine. I see little chance of it being changed.

Santiago
September 28th, 2006, 09:38 PM
Hold the shift key down to put multiple components on ships

Black_Knyght
September 28th, 2006, 09:38 PM
Santiago said:
Its a playbility issue causing uneeded frustration.



That's the best point I've seen yet.

I play a game for fun and relaxation, not to add stress or frustration to my day. So far that's all I'm getting from my efforts to give SEV a chance. I have tried, over and over and over, to get past the issues that bug me and see what might be just around the corner.

I'm not seeing that corner at all.

Phoenix-D
September 28th, 2006, 09:39 PM
Snafu: you want the SHIFT key. Hold it down while placing and another component pops onto the cursor. Just release it right before you place the last component.

Works for removing components as well.

The SE4 UI was a bit better than SE5's, but I don't think it was that efficient.

Santigo: now you've got me imaging a SE roguelike, too. Which would be..interesting, to say the least.

I think the drones are stealth. No see, no shoot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

FaultyAirlock
September 28th, 2006, 09:41 PM
Major_SNAFU said:
Returning to ship building, does anyone know if you can, say, hold down a key and retain the component currently selected so as to quickly put multiples of the same componenet on a ship. If this is possible, a good part of my concern with this specific UI goes away.
Thanks,


Holding down shift should let you place multiple components;
ie. select comp. -> hold shift -> place as many times as needed
edit: whoops, looks like Santiago got it before me

Santiago
September 28th, 2006, 09:45 PM
Well then thousands will fit in a hex and the opposing player will never see them.

Fyron
September 28th, 2006, 10:04 PM
I don't have any trouble seeing ships. Maybe you just need to play at a higher screen resolution? They are nice and big at 1600x1200, and I can see the whole map still.

Captain Kwok
September 28th, 2006, 10:10 PM
Yeah, that's one of the benefits of the bigger resolution is that you can zoom in more and see the ships much better. Add SJ's flag pack and your set if the small ships are an issue for you.

Phoenix-D
September 28th, 2006, 10:18 PM
Zooming in is still a pain, tho. If people actually are doing that I can see why they'd dislike the demo.

And Santiago: I was being silly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Elsewhere you'll find me griping about the size of units in combat, where it -does- make a direct gameplay problem.

Santiago
September 28th, 2006, 11:09 PM
I spend 80-90% of my time traveling. Portabilty is everything. I play on a 10" laptop that weighs about 3 lbs. Resolution is limited. Kind of hard to justify carrying a monitor even if it is a flat screen lol. SE IV is perfect for it. I haven't tried SEV on the home pc. Maybe I will give that a try this weekend and see how it looks.

Actually playing SEIV between posts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

@ Phoenix -D NP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Demorve
September 28th, 2006, 11:12 PM
Here's my 2 cents on the demo, The UI doesn't bother me because I've seen worse (I've also seen better). As for the demo grabbing me, it doesn't, but to be fair the SEIV demo didn't either. The thing that bothers me is the fact that when you enter a unexplored system you don't see the location of the planets. If we on Earth can see the planets with our current technology then you would think a space faring race would be able to at least know the planets location upon entering a new system.

Phoenix-D
September 28th, 2006, 11:25 PM
Demo: that's easily fixed. There's an option in-game to make sight work like SE4, and more options in settings.txt if you want to, say, see only planets but not the enemy ships.

I'll point out that knowing the locations of the planets has come from several thousand years of observation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Still, a starship's basic sensors would probably be able to plot all a new system's planets pretty quickly.

EDIT: Santiago: 10"? Oy. I'm surprised you can even run SE5, since it requires 1024x768 resolution.

Santiago
September 28th, 2006, 11:50 PM
You're out of date on laptops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

AMF
September 29th, 2006, 07:55 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

SO here's mine: if the Demo is any indication of how the final release will be, there is no way I am buying it. I know that I won't play it, and that I would just be aggravated by it. Why would I want to do that?

Suicide Junkie
September 29th, 2006, 08:39 AM
Final release?

It sounds like you probably won't be happy with the initial release unless something surprisingly big happens.
But Aaron is well known for continuing upgrades in the long term. Mods won't be out for a few months anyways.

Matryx
September 29th, 2006, 09:04 AM
Sorry if I'm totally missing the point here but I'm not quite getting the "can't see the ships in space" point?

I'm at work at the moment, but I'm fairly certain the ships were in their hexes last time I looked? Or is this not quite what you meant.


Ooo, better yet, could you explain with screenshots?

Captain Kwok
September 29th, 2006, 09:29 AM
At lower resolutions, it becomes harded to see the ships in the system view - and in particular some of small ships like Frigates and Destroyers are very hard to see - especially when you throw in the default-sized flags/icons.

Xrati
September 29th, 2006, 09:50 AM
I like the 'fog of war' setting, BUT I do agree with Demorve that ships should see the whole system. If it were in a Nebulae/Cosmic Cloud then I could see limited detection. (Good idea for a mod) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Captain Kwok
September 29th, 2006, 09:55 AM
BTW, "level of sight" is a game setup option in the full version just in case you didn't know.

RonGianti
September 29th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Ok, so I've seen around 10 distinct "complaints" about the demo.

Around 5 of them turned out to be just changable options, (flag size, etc) that the poster(s) chose to complain about in overly forceful words ("I'll never buy this piece of crap, blah, blah until this is fixed!) rather than just poking around or asking a simple question.

2 or 3 of them boil down to "I'm used to SEIV and now I can't find stuff". Again, some posters choose to get out the big guns and start blasting away with "buggy piece of crap! I'll never buy this game, EVER!", instead of just asking a question.

Yea, fine, people are entitled to their opinion.

Heres mine: if you have to blast away with "I hate this buggy piece of crap and I'll never buy it EVER!" instead of just asking a question then you are being too negative.

There are so many new options and stuff to do and stuff that makes Space Empires LESS annoying that I cant believe the negative-fest here.

You know what I find annoying? When in SE4, one of my "allies" colonizes all the planets in MY systems! ARRRRGGGHHHHH. I'll never buy SE4 until they fix that buggy piece of crap. Oh yea, it IS fixed, in SEV.

You know what else I find annoying? Fighters are just one stack in SE4! Its not fair that a battleship can plow through my stack of fighters because the game conciders them one big stack! I'll never buy SE4 because its a buggy piece of crap! Good thing its fixed in SEV...

There are a couple minor, niggling little things in SEV that will probably be "updated" anyway, and don't HOLD A CANDLE to all the stuff thats been fixed, updated and just plain improved in SEV.

tmcc
September 29th, 2006, 10:14 AM
Touche

Santiago
September 29th, 2006, 10:18 AM
For example in 1024x768 resolution,

In SEIV its a top down view of the entire system and you can see where your ships are at any time just by glancing at the screen.

In SEV the star system is much bigger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. In a top down view (comparing to SEIV) and you zoom out to see the entire system- actually just 3/4 just to make it not too small, the ships are virtually non- existant. Flags were too big and the mini-flags help, but its still just frustration. Where are my ships? I waste time trying to find where they are currently at.

The bottom portion of the UI is too big in relation to the main game screen and hides part of the main screen where I like to have it at a particular playable size. It should be made individually to minimize.

Since I am restricted to playing in safe mode and not primary display adapter, it ends up being windowed and cuts off a small portion of the game even moving the window for maximum visibility and the scrolling of the game screen (this needs to be user selectable to on/off) results in scrolling of only 2 directions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

There are other issues brought up by others. If it was only a few items, then maybe it could be looked over. Seems more like mid beta than near release.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably cave in and buy it eventually, and I like a lot of things in it, but I think it really needs lots of work. Just my opinion. Now I came in at SEIV after it was already well patched and MM has a great reputation with the players and I'm hoping for the best. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


@ Fyron Thanks for the email addy, this post or the other one.

AMF
September 29th, 2006, 10:50 AM
SJ,

that's a very valid point, and I take it to heart. Certainly, if Aaron does support SEV as well as I hope he will, then I will do a complete turnaround, and become as addicted to SEV as I was to SE4. But I have heard enough about how everything that has been brought up was brought up by the beta testers, but was ignored, and other things, etc...to make me cautious.

So...I'm likly going to be holding off for now. In any case my time frame for me to become addicted to and supportive of this game is measured in months and years, not weeks. In fact, I anticipate starting to really play it in about ten months, since I'l be quite busy until then. Ironically enough, that will be plenty of time for all buggy issues to be worked out, me to decide if I can tolerate the UI (or it changes), and a whole slew of mods to come out. I will certainly buy the game, but whether or not I play it for the next six years will be determined by how well it survives the test of time. And that depends, as you rightly point out, how well Aaron listens to the players and implements fixes and patches...




Suicide Junkie said:
Final release?

It sounds like you probably won't be happy with the initial release unless something surprisingly big happens.
But Aaron is well known for continuing upgrades in the long term. Mods won't be out for a few months anyways.

VanderVecken
September 29th, 2006, 11:21 AM
Well, I've played with the demo 3 times, and things do get easier, and some parts are nice to have, and ...

... but here is the thing. As it stands, SE:V is not a 'Just one more turn and I'll go to bed; no dear, I really mean it this time. Oh, I said that 45 minutes ago? Well this time I really, REALLY mean it !' kind of game yet.

Yes, I think it's probably a better game than it's predecessor, but because of a few previously mentioned UI and visual things, I really just cant enjoy this as much as I should be able to. I'll need to wait for some changes before I can wrap my time into this game. I expect that these changes will be made with Aaron's track record; but if not, "We'll always have Paris(SEIV)".

Until then, besides getting involved in that strange thing called 'Real Life', Shrapnel just started shipping Dominions-3.

Matryx
September 29th, 2006, 11:57 AM
If it's a case of the ships appearing too small on the screen as Kwok mentioned - isn't that one of the file-changeable things? You could ask Fyron to quickly knock you up a script to go and alter them all, he's done it a few times with other files needing similar changes?

I play on a 19.1" monitor @ 1280x1024 - in windowed mode (1024x768) so I don't have to alt-tab all the time with my dual screens to get to the other monitor, and I can see my ships just fine in their hexes...

That said - I use the isometric view, with the view dragged all the way to the bottom, and just rotate the view a smidgen if I'm trying to click something on completely the opposite side of the system.

Captain Kwok
September 29th, 2006, 11:59 AM
It's changeable in the data files, but it is a specific value for each ship - so it should just have a multiplier - which shouldbe applied through an in-game setting...

Barnacle Bill
September 29th, 2006, 01:02 PM
RonGianti said:
You know what I find annoying? When in SE4, one of my "allies" colonizes all the planets in MY systems! ARRRRGGGHHHHH. I'll never buy SE4 until they fix that buggy piece of crap. Oh yea, it IS fixed, in SEV.




That was my #1 beef with SEIV. It is certainly better in SEV, but since I can't claim a system other than by colonizing in it, it isn't 100% fixed.

Example - let's say I have a colony in System A, which links to System B containing no planets I can colonize, which links to System C containing a colonizable planet. Let's say the only route from A (or anyplace else in my empire) to C is through B. Clearly I'd be wanting to call B "mine". However, if AI enters B through another warp point and colonizes in it, now it's "his" and my colony in C is cut off. So, I'd still like to be able to claim B before that happens, thus precluding it.

Still, for the system ownership situation that applies 99% of the time, SEV is much better than SEIV.


RonGianti said:
There are a couple minor, niggling little things in SEV that will probably be "updated" anyway, and don't HOLD A CANDLE to all the stuff thats been fixed, updated and just plain improved in SEV.



I absolutely agree with this.

On the matter of seeing planets that so many people bring up - I actually like that because it slows down the land rush.

On the related subject of "seeing from memory", it looks from settings.txt like we have the option to set things by class, but I'd like the ability to set it by mobility. In other words to see things that can't move themselves like colonies, bases, satelites, troops, etc... from memory but not things that can move like ships & fighter groups.

narf poit chez BOOM
September 29th, 2006, 06:42 PM
If you could claim a system simply by clicking on the map, wouldn't that mean some players would click on every system they found, thus overly limiting AI's with treaties?

(Don't actually know - Too many bugs in the demo.)

Kamog
September 30th, 2006, 01:06 AM
Then an Ancient Race could claim the entire galaxy during their first turn! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Barnacle Bill
September 30th, 2006, 08:14 AM
narf poit chez BOOM said:
If you could claim a system simply by clicking on the map, wouldn't that mean some players would click on every system they found, thus overly limiting AI's with treaties?




I think it would be rather expected that you would claim any system you explored and which wasn't already claimed, as would the AI. I would that the AI could be programmed to launch a war of expansion against its (perceived) weakest neighbor if it ran out of planets to colonize within its own territory.

Barnacle Bill
September 30th, 2006, 08:20 AM
Kamog said:
Then an Ancient Race could claim the entire galaxy during their first turn! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif



I don't know - did that happen in SEIV? I mean, even though the AI wasn't constrained much by claims, there were Ancient Races and the ability to claim explored systems...

If it is an issue, the fix is easy... You could have to actually have a presence in the system at the moment of claiming - but by "presense" I mean anything including an exploration ship, not just a colony. Sure, Ancient Races would still have an advantage, but they already do - and if necessary that could be balanced by raising the cost of being an Ancient Race.

arthurtuxedo
September 30th, 2006, 01:23 PM
You could claim every system you saw in SE4, but it didn't really mean much since it couldn't be a part of treaties. In SE5 it does mean something, so it makes sense that MM restricted territorial claims to territory you actually have a legitimate claim on.

As far as the exploration goes, people have pointed out that you should be able to see the planets, even if it's just with telescopes. That's true, if the other system is fairly close by, but think of it this way: There are a maximum of 255 star systems in a game of SE5. There are hundreds of billions of star systems in a real galaxy. So for every system that is connected with warp points, there are a billion that are not. Therefore, it stands to reason that even a "neighboring" star system connected via warp point might be so far away that you can't see the planets, only the star.

capnq
September 30th, 2006, 03:35 PM
Barnacle Bill said:

Kamog said:
Then an Ancient Race could claim the entire galaxy during their first turn! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif



I don't know - did that happen in SEIV? I mean, even though the AI wasn't constrained much by claims, there were Ancient Races and the ability to claim explored systems...

You didn't have to explore a system to claim it in SE IV. (Having to explore a system first might have slowed down AI expansion, for one thing.) In multiplayer games, some people routinely claimed the entire map on their first turn, so as not to give away any information about where their colonies actually were. Other people didn't claim any systems, or rename planets, for the same reason.

And why shouldn't an Ancient race claim the whole map? They were there first, after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

frightlever
September 30th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Captain Kwok said:
Although if you've noticed a lot of players who made the early posts are slowly being converted over to SE:V. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif




Or just as likely stopped posting because there's not much point hanging around a forum for a demo you didn't like.

Major_SNAFU
October 4th, 2006, 03:20 PM
Well,

I've played with the demo a good bit more and it has grown on me, no doubt about that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I have some quibbles about the controls here and there. I really don't like the ship design where I have to release the component I have selected to switch between decks. The game should either drop the component when I click on something else or it should allow me to click with a component selected.

To make me traverse the screen twice to change decks is frustrating.

I offer that as an example.

I do like some of the menus, etc.

One thing I could not figure out, but that I thought was supposed to be one of the big changes for SEV was to have multiple construction queues on the same planet. I could not figure out how to do this.

I have always thought it a bit silly that one can't build a spaceship, a weapons platform, a facility, etc. concurrenty.

It would be like saying that the U.S. has to shut down all other manufacturing while we build a space shuttle.

There should be 4 queues on each planet.
Troops
Ships
Facilities
Units (or what ever it is called)

But over all the look and feel is growing on me.

I figured I should give a report since I started this conversation off.

arthurtuxedo
October 4th, 2006, 03:32 PM
Just put multiple items on the construction queue and unused points will automatically bleed over to the next item.

Major_SNAFU
October 4th, 2006, 03:38 PM
Hi Arthur,

But that is not my point. My point is that you should be able to build somthing on the ground (troop or unit) and something in the air (ship) and improve infrastructure all at the same time.

Having to do it in serial fashion makes things drag out...

I was really hoping for this in SEV

Barnacle Bill
October 4th, 2006, 05:20 PM
arthurtuxedo said:
In SE5 it does mean something, so it makes sense that MM restricted territorial claims to territory you actually have a legitimate claim on.




But exploration gives you a legitimate claim on it! You know, the old plant the flag and "I claim this land for the King of Bling" routine?

As currently programmed, the net in-game effect is that I still don't dare agree to treaties letting the squatters past my warships until I've got a colony in every system within what I consider my borders (or at least every one with a planet in it). I have to reserve the right to kill any colony ships I catch on my turf, or glass any colonies founded by ones that slip through. That limits the utility of the diplomatic system vs one where my legitimate claims would be honored by my treaty partners.

wrongshui
October 4th, 2006, 05:23 PM
It'd be nice if the space yard was.. a massive.. yard.. in space.. and had its own queue, seperate from the planet.

Noble713
October 4th, 2006, 08:03 PM
wrongshui said:
It'd be nice if the space yard was.. a massive.. yard.. in space.. and had its own queue, seperate from the planet.




You mean like a space station with a space yard component added to it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

wrongshui
October 4th, 2006, 08:20 PM
I'm thinking something massive, with a planet SY construction rate, something too big to stick on a ship or starbase.

Phoenix-D
October 4th, 2006, 08:30 PM
Doable; an example follows. The values can be tweaked to taste, but what this does is make a 1,000kt unit that can be built, then sent into orbit, where it stays. The only thing it can carry is a single Space Yard component, and in combat it looks like a space station. I haven't tested it since the demo won't allow it, but it should work.

This goes into VehicleUnitTypes.txt (note the line maximum in space- this restricts the player from building a horde of these things):
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Vehicle Unit Type Name := Space Yard
Unit Texture Start X := 0.50
Unit Texture Start Y := 0.50
Unit Texture End X := 1.00
Unit Texture End Y := 1.00
Maximum In Space Per Player Per Sector := 1
Number Of Unit Capabilities := 13
Unit Capability 1 Type := Can Communicate
Unit Capability 2 Type := Can Be Scrapped
Unit Capability 3 Type := Can Self-Destruct
Unit Capability 4 Type := Can Be Fired On And Destroyed By Owner
Unit Capability 5 Type := Can Be Launched Into Space
Unit Capability 6 Type := Has Spaceyard Capability
Unit Capability 7 Type := Has Facing
Unit Capability 8 Type := Can Obscure Sectors
Unit Capability 9 Type := Can Be Deconstructed And Analyzed
Unit Capability 10 Type := Can Be Transferred While In Cargo
Unit Capability 11 Type := Cannot Move And Tracks Target
Unit Capability 12 Type := Can Be Mothballed
Unit Capability 13 Type := Can Be UnMothballed
</pre><hr />

This goes into VehicleTypes.txt:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Name := Space Yard
Short Name := Space Yard
Description :=
Code := SY
Vehicle Type := Space Yard
Maximum Level := 10
Tonnage Space Formula := 1000
Tonnage Structure Formula := 1000
Cost Minerals Formula := 500
Cost Organics Formula := 125
Cost Radioactives Formula := 125
Engines Per Move := 0
Maximum Model Size := 20.0
Vehicle TopDown Picture Index := 10
Vehicle Portrait Primary := [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Spacestation.bmp
Vehicle Portrait Alternate := [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Spacestation.bmp
Vehicle Portrait Default := [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Spacestation.bmp
Vehicle Large Portrait Primary := [%EmpireName%]_LargePortrait_Spacestation.jpg
Vehicle Large Portrait Alternate := [%EmpireName%]_LargePortrait_Spacestation.jpg
Vehicle Large Portrait Default := [%EmpireName%]_LargePortrait_Spacestation.jpg
Vehicle Inv Portrait Primary := [%EmpireName%]_InvPortrait_Spacestation.jpg
Vehicle Inv Portrait Alternate := [%EmpireName%]_InvPortrait_Spacestation.jpg
Vehicle Inv Portrait Default := [%EmpireName%]_InvPortrait_Spacestation.jpg
Vehicle Inv Configuration Layout Primary := [%EmpireName%] Spacestation Layout
Vehicle Inv Configuration Layout Alternate := [%EmpireName%] Spacestation Layout
Vehicle Inv Configuration Layout Default := [%EmpireName%] Spacestation Layout
Vehicle XFile Class Name Primary := [%EmpireName%] Spacestation
Vehicle XFile Class Name Alternate := [%EmpireName%] Spacestation
Vehicle XFile Class Name Default := [%EmpireName%] Spacestation
Vehicle Texture Start X := 0.25
Vehicle Texture Start Y := 0.75
Vehicle Texture End X := 0.50
Vehicle Texture End Y := 1.00
Space Combat Maximum Speed Per Movement Point := 0.0
Space Combat Turn Rate Base := 0.0008
Space Combat Turn Rate Decrease Per kT := 0.0000005
Space Combat Turn Rate Minimum := 0.0001
Space Combat Acceleration Rate Base := 0.0
Space Combat Acceleration Rate Decrease Per kT := 0.0
Space Combat Acceleration Rate Minimum := 0.0
Space Combat Deceleration Rate Base := 0.0
Space Combat Deceleration Rate Decrease Per kT := 0.0
Space Combat Deceleration Rate Minimum := 0.0
Space Combat Banks When Changing Height := FALSE
Ground Combat Maximum Speed Per Movement Point := 0.0
Ground Combat Turn Rate Base := 0.0
Ground Combat Turn Rate Decrease Per kT := 0.0
Ground Combat Turn Rate Minimum := 0.0
Ground Combat Acceleration Rate Base := 0.0
Ground Combat Acceleration Rate Decrease Per kT := 0.0
Ground Combat Acceleration Rate Minimum := 0.0
Ground Combat Deceleration Rate Base := 0.0
Ground Combat Deceleration Rate Decrease Per kT := 0.0
Ground Combat Deceleration Rate Minimum := 0.0
Ground Combat Banks When Changing Height := FALSE
Number Of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense
Ability 1 Description := Large size makes base [%Amount1%]% easier to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Scope := Space Object
Ability 1 Range Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula := -20 + ([%Level%] - 1)
Ability 1 Amount 2 Formula := 0
Ability 2 Type := Ship Maintenance Cost Modifier
Ability 2 Description := Reduced wear and tear allow for a decrease in maintenance cost of [%Amount1%]%.
Ability 2 Scope := Space Object
Ability 2 Range Formula := 0
Ability 2 Amount 1 Formula := -50
Ability 2 Amount 2 Formula := 0
Number Of Requirements := 2
Requirements Evaluation Availability := 1
Requirements Evaluation Allows Placement := 2
Requirements Evaluation Allows Usage := TRUE
Requirement 1 Description := Empire must have at least tech level 1 in Ship Base Construction.
Requirement 1 Formula := Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Base Construction") &gt;= (1 + ([%Level%] - 1))
Requirement 2 Description := This vehicle cannot have any movement.
Requirement 2 Formula := Get_Design_Ability_Component_Count("Movement Standard") &lt;= 0
</pre><hr />

And this goes into Components.txt:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Name := Space Yard
Description := Ship construction component which can work on one ship at a time.
Picture Number := 8
Maximum Level := 21
Tonnage Space Taken Formula := 400
Tonnage Structure Formula := 1000
Cost Minerals Formula := 200 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 2)
Cost Organics Formula := 0
Cost Radioactives Formula := 500 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 5)
Supply Amount Used Formula := 0
Ordnance Amount Used Formula := 0
Can Be Placed On Vehicle Types := Space Yard
Can Be Placed In Ship Sections := Inner Hull, Outer Hull
Component Type List := Technological
General Group := Construction
Custom Group := 0
Number Of Requirements := 1
Requirements Evaluation Availability := AND
Requirements Evaluation Allows Placement := TRUE
Requirements Evaluation Allows Usage := TRUE
Requirement 1 Description := Empire must have at least tech level 10 in Space Yards.
Requirement 1 Formula := Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Space Yards") &gt;= (10 + ([%Level%] - 1))
Number Of Abilities := 6
Ability 1 Type := Space Yard
Ability 1 Description := Can construct with [%Amount2%] minerals per turn.
Ability 1 Scope := Space Object
Ability 1 Range Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula := 1
Ability 1 Amount 2 Formula := 1000 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 100)
Ability 2 Type := Space Yard
Ability 2 Description := Can construct with [%Amount2%] organics per turn.
Ability 2 Scope := Space Object
Ability 2 Range Formula := 0
Ability 2 Amount 1 Formula := 2
Ability 2 Amount 2 Formula := 2000 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 100)
Ability 3 Type := Space Yard
Ability 3 Description := Can construct with [%Amount2%] radioactives per turn.
Ability 3 Scope := Space Object
Ability 3 Range Formula := 0
Ability 3 Amount 1 Formula := 3
Ability 3 Amount 2 Formula := 2000 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 100)
Ability 4 Type := Tonnage Repair Ship
Ability 4 Description := Can repair [%Amount1%]kT of ship tonnage per turn.
Ability 4 Scope := Space Object
Ability 4 Range Formula := 0
Ability 4 Amount 1 Formula := 200 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 20)
Ability 4 Amount 2 Formula := 0
Ability 5 Type := Tonnage Repair Unit
Ability 5 Description := Can repair [%Amount1%]kT of unit tonnage per turn.
Ability 5 Scope := Space Object
Ability 5 Range Formula := 0
Ability 5 Amount 1 Formula := 60 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 20)
Ability 5 Amount 2 Formula := 0
Ability 6 Type := Tonnage Repair Facility
Ability 6 Description := Can repair [%Amount1%]kT of facility tonnage per turn.
Ability 6 Scope := Space Object
Ability 6 Range Formula := 0
Ability 6 Amount 1 Formula := 150 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 20)
Ability 6 Amount 2 Formula := 0
Weapon Type := None
</pre><hr />

Major_SNAFU
October 4th, 2006, 08:52 PM
Phoenix-D,

That is just great!

Now we just need a mod that give each home planet one of these off the bat (unless the race chooses to not have space-realted tech at the beginning).

THanks

I'm pasting these to a text file for future use!

Phoenix-D
October 4th, 2006, 09:31 PM
You might want to tweak the values and such- I didn't mess with it that much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

HWs can't have these off the bat, as they're units. They'll also take up 1000kt of space, so unless the planet has that much room you won't be able to build them.

EDIT: Oh, and you'll need to edit the weapons as well; right now nothing can shoot at this since its a different unit type that none of the weapons have in their targeting lists.

Raapys
October 5th, 2006, 08:27 AM
What's the Can Communicate ability?

wrongshui
October 5th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Thanks for that Phoenix-D, im toying round with an idea for a mod and orbital shipyards were something I was after.

Suicide Junkie
October 5th, 2006, 09:09 AM
"Can Communicate" means that it can make political contact.

In SE4, ships, bases, planets, etc can.
Minefields can't make political contact, on the other hand.

Phoenix-D
October 5th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Sure they can!

Its just very briefcontact.

Suicide Junkie
October 5th, 2006, 06:02 PM
Mines certainly do send a message, but even the smart bombs are not terribly good at making polite conversation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Black_Knyght
October 5th, 2006, 06:32 PM
Phoenix-D said:
Sure they can!

Its just very brief contact.



<font color="red"> R O T F L M A O !!! </font>


Ouch !!! Funny, and oh-so-true....