Bug Thread: Discussion

[vfb]

You can use F1 and try to give each commander doing something weird a proper order ... like if you see a mage on preach, you can change the order right in the F1 list, to research. If it doesn't change, you know he's flipped out that month. The list doesn't reset when you give the order either, so unless you need to tell him to move somewhere, you can pretty much just scroll through the F1 list once.

But I agree it'd be nicer if they just reverted to defend when they stopped being crazy (red) insane.

And it would be nice if it was possible to rename the insane prophets, since they aren't truly prophets in that they don't spread dominion other than by preaching. I really want to rename them all hhh or h3.

[Kristoffer O]

They do spread dominion to my knowledge.

[vfb]

The Dominion/Temple screen in a game I'm in (with a dom10 god) shows:

Conversion Rates
God 30
Prophet 10
Home Province 10
Temples 140

I've got at least 5 prophets now. Shouldn't it show "Prophet 50" if they are all spreading dominion?

[Kristoffer O]

The conversion screen will probably just add your dominion rating if you have a prophet, since it was designed when you could only have one prophet. There is probably some kind of tag somewhere that says 'nation has got a prophet'. This tag is used to make sure no more prophets are made, and possibly that the conversion rate is shown.

[Kristoffer O]

They are truly prophets. Just check their stats, priest lvl, perma-bless etc. If your regular priest dies you cant make a new one, since you still have insane ones.

[Kristoffer O]

BTW, you don't want to rename them hhh, or h3 for that matter. If you do, we might remove the renaming feature from the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

From now on you will rename all your prophets, 'most holy one', holiest of holies', 'holy one', 'most high one' etc. Else you will be banned from all games and all forums with any connection to dominions.

In other words: shame on you!

[Loren]

Edi said:
Loren, no, I have not heard additional reports on that one either. Nor have I had time to look at the games you posted.



In SP it's a game-killer. If there's nothing you can do to avoid triggering the fortress battle that's it, you have to abandon the game.

[Edi]

Large game, late game, isn't it?

[NTJedi]

Loren said:
Am I the only one running into the battlefield overload bug? I've posted multiple games that will crash due to it. It was killed some time ago but it came back.



This might be a problem with a specific battlefield and is not a problem with all battlefields. I have noticed some of the newly added battlefields which didn't exist within Dominions_2 display battlefield magic effects differently... such as astral shield. I never mentioned this earlier because more major issues still exist.

[vfb]

Kristoffer O said:
They are truly prophets. Just check their stats, priest lvl, perma-bless etc. If your regular priest dies you cant make a new one, since you still have insane ones.



Yes, they look like prophets and smell like prophets. But I still think they are not really prophets. If they are real prophets, my dominion problems are even worse than I thought they were! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

I had an SP game with LA Rlyeh about a year ago, and I seem to remember my real prophet dying, and I was able to make a new real prophet 6 months later even though I had insane prophets. (I think!) I'll see if I can find some time to test this, because I've been wrong many times before!


Kristoffer O said:
BTW, you don't want to rename them hhh, or h3 for that matter. If you do, we might remove the renaming feature from the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

From now on you will rename all your prophets, 'most holy one', holiest of holies', 'holy one', 'most high one' etc. Else you will be banned from all games and all forums with any connection to dominions.

In other words: shame on you!



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Don't you know, 'hhh' is just an abbreviation for 'Hallowed Holy Herald'? Or was it 'Holy High Harold'? I can never get it straight.

[Argitoth]

Poison Golem (50 Morale) routed and died.
Poison golem routed even with 50 morale and with friendly provinces, he died. There was no "poison golem died in enemy territory" message either.

Poison golem was equipped with those sandals of teleportation and a spirit helm. He was teleporting everwhere and casting lighting bolt. This battle was VS a water queen, btw, so it was 1v1. Poison golem was Niefelheim and Water Queen was mictlan. During the battle, "Niefelheim routed" did appear. After that, the poison golem was still teleporting around. However, the poison golem disappeared from the battle and the battle was over after a few more battle rounds. Poison golem died.

I did this test a few times now. The queen was usually the one who routed. However, I can't recall if that depended on if the queen was attacking or defending a province.

Doing another test, didn't just disappear. It actually DID die in the battle after the "Niefelheim routed" message appeared. It didn't die because of the water queen, it just died.

[Argitoth]

Skull Standard is not functioning
I equipped skull standards on 5 commanders. I gave battle orders (panic)(panic)(panic)(panic)(panic)Cast Spells. During the battle, all they did was attacked. This was a battle vs a single water queen. No commanders casted panic and there was no indication of panic being casted at all.

[Argitoth]

Medusa shield kills stone units.
Medusa shield is killing Enlivened Gargoyles and Envlivened statues. This is confirmed by the fact that 999 damage appears above their heads. Doing tests, it seems that naturally blind units (fire elementals for example) are the only units not affected by Medusa shield. However, units that become blind from afflictions will be effected by the medusa shield.

Doing more tests, I created a battle with Iron Dragon, Crusher, Enlivened Gargoyle, Golem, Enlivened Statue, and a few other constructs. Some died from the medusa shield, others got killed by the queen.

[Zeldor]

Argitoth:

Mindless units stop to exist when turn limit comes. They cannot rout, but they should keep on fighting, not just disappear.

[Sombre]

Skull standard worked for me yesterday with two normal armies fighting each other. It's possible it just won't cast against a water queen for whatever reason.

[Argitoth]

Sombre, you are probably right. But I think it's a bug that panic doesn't work on the water queen.

[Endoperez]

Argitoth said:
Sombre, you are probably right. But I think it's a bug that panic doesn't work on the water queen.



Was she berserk? If not, are you sure they were in range for casting Panic?

Nice find about the innate blind units being immune to Aegis.

[vfb]

Endoperez said:

Argitoth said:
Sombre, you are probably right. But I think it's a bug that panic doesn't work on the water queen.



Was she berserk? If not, are you sure they were in range for casting Panic?

Nice find about the innate blind units being immune to Aegis.



They aren't immune. I tested it with both Blindfighters and Fire Elementals, and they all got petrified eventually. I have no idea what Argitoth did differently in his test.

[Endoperez]

BUG: Wishing for non-unique items removes one instance of that item from somewhere.
Forge an enchanted sword. Wish for "enchanted sword". One existing enchanted sword will disappear. Easy to test with my test mod:

#modname "test"

#selectspell "Wish"
#fatiguecost 100
#researchlevel 0
#pathlevel 0 1
#end

[vfb]

One Enchanted Sword will disappear from each nation, actually.

[Argitoth]

Endoperez said:Was she berserk? If not, are you sure they were in range for casting Panic?


Queen was not berserk, no ability to go berserk, no spells for berserk at the time. They all died in melee with the water queen. They were DEFINITELY in range.


vfb said:They aren't immune. I tested it with both Blindfighters and Fire Elementals, and they all got petrified eventually. I have no idea what Argitoth did differently in his test.


Eventually? So it took a really long time? Well maybe my battles just weren't long enough.

[Loren]

I'm looking at a battle. Someone cast a battlefield enchantment, I'm looking at the description of it:

Natuaral Rain
....
No description available.

[Bananadine]

Bug: Curse of Stones fizzles.

This happened to me twice during the game Uakari that's running now. I've tried to cast the spell three times. One time, it worked fine and helped me win. The other two times were failures: The casting attempt would darken the screen for a short time, but no star icon would appear for the spell, and the enemies would not become extra-fatigued (as far as I could tell).

The second time this happened, it appeared that the Curse of Stones casting happened during the same battle round as another spell-casting; this is similar to behavior I reported a few weeks ago (concerning a failure to cast Call Horror).

I'll attach a .trn file. The game uses the Tomb Kings, Arga Dis, and Skaven mods.

[Zeldor]

Edi:

Did you get any comment about mindless commanders [Golem] vanishing when turn limit comes in battle? I don't believe it is WAD.

I have lost golem with heroic toughness, equipped with sickle, lucky coin, stashine skullcap, robe of invulnerability, boots of quicckness, amulet of resilience and antimagic together with 30 death gems from sickle... just because there were few troops left that he did not manage to kill withing 50 turns.

[Edi]

Yeah, I saw that. I've also discussed it with someone else earlier, but whether or not it's WAD is not something I an answer. I need KO or JK to clarify that.

So far the point about mindless units not retreating from battle but going poof makes sense, because commanders behave a bit differently than normal units and there are no mindless commanders except golems. Golems also state they never retreat in the description.

[Zeldor]

I can agree with troops, but commander is commander. He shouldn't be killed just because he was too slow in killing. And there is absolutely no description on him that gives any hints that something like that may happen.

OH, there is also another thing:
I have sent Horror on province X where there was one wraith lord, horror lost.
After that in normal battles stage I attacked province Y, which is 3 province away [plans, mountains] from X and I have met the same wraith lord.
That 2 provinces between X and Y have been conquered by me in magic battles stage. How could he move there?

[Endoperez]

Zeldor said:
That 2 provinces between X and Y have been conquered by me in magic battles stage. How could he move there?



Movement was set and checked when the movement was still possible. The fact that you conquered the in-between provinces "before it could move" doesn't have any mechanical effect.

[Edi]

Zeldor, you are ignoring game mechanics.

1) Mindless units do not retreat from battle. If left without leadership, they die.
2) Combat ends after 75 turns with attackers dying if left on battlefield
3) Golems will never retreat from battle (as per description AND per mindlessness, because he has 50 morale and leads himself)

1+2+3 = attacking Golem dies automatically when turn 75 autorout death is reached. According to the game mechanics, this is WAD. Whether there should be some exceptions built to take this into account is another question entirely, but this is NOT an automatic bug!

As for the wraithlord, was that the same wraithlord or another wraithlord with the same equipment? And were there alternate routes from A to B?

[Zeldor]

Edi:

Attacking Golem dies on turn 50, not 75. When normal troops would start to retreat due to turn limit, Golem vanishes, instead of fighting till turn 75.

And second situation:
There were alternate routes, but 1st would be 2 water provinces and 2nd would be 4 provinces away, not 3. And yeah, the same, unless he can have the same name and carry the same artifact http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Edi]

Hmm, then it looks like the turn 50 autorout kills all mindless units on the battlefield. It still falls under the mechanics, just earlier. It still needs clarification from IW.

Endo is probably right about the movement.

[Zeldor]

Yep, it probably checks only target province, not those on the way. I guess it is just a minor bug/flaw that would require way too much work to be fixed.

And wrrr... that is just ridiculous to lose SC like that. Really important SC :/

[vfb]

It not necessarily a bug. The army group receives orders at the beginning of the month to travel from A to B, through C.

On the first of the month they leave province A. On the 8th day, they pass through province C. On the 14th day, a magic battle occurs in province C. On the 15th day, the army group arrives in province B.

[lch]

Loren said:
I'm looking at a battle. Someone cast a battlefield enchantment, I'm looking at the description of it:

Natuaral Rain
....
No description available.


It probably is the same as the Rain spell, but coming from the weather as a random element. But yes, it should come with a copy of the Rain description if you click on it.

[Saulot]

Yes weather exists in Dom. Sometimes it will rain or snow in a battle all on it's own. Effects exactly as the rain spell.

[Loren]

lch said:

Loren said:
I'm looking at a battle. Someone cast a battlefield enchantment, I'm looking at the description of it:

Natuaral Rain
....
No description available.


It probably is the same as the Rain spell, but coming from the weather as a random element. But yes, it should come with a copy of the Rain description if you click on it.



I think it was a casting, not a random event.

Look at the spelling of what I posted. That was exactly copied from the screen, I did *NOT* make a typo.

[Edi]

Edi said:
Hmm, then it looks like the turn 50 autorout kills all mindless units on the battlefield. It still falls under the mechanics, just earlier. It still needs clarification from IW.

Endo is probably right about the movement.


Now that I rechecked the shortlist, the golem issue has been there for some months, but it's in the BHV section.

[Dedas]

Legions of Steel is clearly not working as intended yet it is still "fixed" on the bug list. It favors units with little armor instead of boosting the ones with much. This is pretty annoying when playing MA Ulm. I would love to have it fixed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Argitoth]

Argitoth said:
Skull Standard is not functioning
I equipped skull standards on 5 commanders. I gave battle orders (panic)(panic)(panic)(panic)(panic)Cast Spells. During the battle, all they did was attacked. This was a battle vs a single water queen. No commanders casted panic and there was no indication of panic being casted at all.



Update on this: I tried to get the same commanders to cast Maggots. They all just attacked. The unit I've been using is Mounted Commander, independent unit. Yes, they were empowered with nature to cast Maggots. It seems the bug lies in Mounted Commander independent units.

[Edi]

I'll reopen that one but it won't make it to the imminent patch, has to be the next one after that.

[Dedas]

Thank you so much Edi. Much appreciated.

[vfb]

Imminent patch?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Can't wait to see what happens to the tartarians! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Edi]

Argitoth said:

Argitoth said:
Skull Standard is not functioning
I equipped skull standards on 5 commanders. I gave battle orders (panic)(panic)(panic)(panic)(panic)Cast Spells. During the battle, all they did was attacked. This was a battle vs a single water queen. No commanders casted panic and there was no indication of panic being casted at all.



Update on this: I tried to get the same commanders to cast Maggots. They all just attacked. The unit I've been using is Mounted Commander, independent unit. Yes, they were empowered with nature to cast Maggots. It seems the bug lies in Mounted Commander independent units.


Read the bloody spell description. It says maggots works against either Demons or Undead (don't remember which), so since you scripted them to cast something that was completely ineffective and they probably found nothing else that they could do with magic, they attacked. There is no bug that I know of with independent Mounted Commanders of any stripe.

Know thy tools before reporting something as a bug!

[Edi]

Dedas said:
Thank you so much Edi. Much appreciated.


I've reopened it in the spell section as a potential new issue, with reasoning included, but it is basically just a RFC for evaluation purposes and not a real bug.

[Argitoth]

Edi said:It says maggots works against either Demons or Undead (don't remember which)...



Edi, it only works on undead, and yes, I do know that. You don't need the manual to know this, it tells you in the spell description.

I really hope comments like Edi's doesn't cause my bug reports to be ignored.

[thejeff]

Re: Empowered Mounted Commanders

I'd have to say I'm really surprised they couldn't find anything else to do and so attacked. Don't spell casters with no spells to cast default to stay behind troops?
And they should be able to cast something. Barkskin at least.

Edit:
Assuming you were attacking undead, the original post was about a water queen and the second was not clear, it's likely they weren't in range for Maggots. It's only a range of 20, makes it tricky to use.

[Edi]

Argitoth said:

Edi said:It says maggots works against either Demons or Undead (don't remember which)...



Edi, it only works on undead, and yes, I do know that. You don't need the manual to know this, it tells you in the spell description.

I really hope comments like Edi's doesn't cause my bug reports to be ignored.


I'm going to ignore any incoherent or useless reports. Your first post talks about a water queen. Since you imply your other parameters are the same this time except for empowerment, it is not my problem. If there is indeed some obscure bug there, then report the bug as per the outline in the shortlist. That means including a detailed, accurate description. Vague mumbling that leaves me guessing and requiring telepathy or a crystal ball to find out what you really meant doesn't cut it. It's a waste of time to spend any effort on a vague report.

So, what's the setup? Your forces, enemy forces, distance between them, scripts on your commanders, what battlefield enchantments are in play etc etc and then what goes wrong. That may give me enough information to form some useful conclusions.

[Kristoffer O]

Argitoth said:

Argitoth said:
Skull Standard is not functioning
I equipped skull standards on 5 commanders. I gave battle orders (panic)(panic)(panic)(panic)(panic)Cast Spells. During the battle, all they did was attacked. This was a battle vs a single water queen. No commanders casted panic and there was no indication of panic being casted at all.



Update on this: I tried to get the same commanders to cast Maggots. They all just attacked. The unit I've been using is Mounted Commander, independent unit. Yes, they were empowered with nature to cast Maggots. It seems the bug lies in Mounted Commander independent units.



??? Bug in Mounted commander ???
If the mounted commander is empowered or uses an item it is the spell or the item or the spell casting AI that is bugged. Not the commander. He is just a bunch of stats of which move is one and morale another.

If you try to cast panic on an unbreakable unit I would be surprised if the AI didn't override your orders. If there are no other options or targets in range the caster will advance one turn. If your AP is high enough your commander will get close to your target and get whacked.

[Argitoth]

Welp... bah... musta been just my luck to try to do two things that the AI refuses to do under certain circumstances. I think the reason the commanders never casted maggots is because they had to get close to the undead and then got whacked and the rest routed.

Why can't Morale 30 units be routed?

[Kristoffer O]

They can be, but it is unlikely. 30 is sort of a marker meaning unbreakable, just like 50 menas unbreakable and mindless, and 99 means unbreakable and unroutable and berserking.

I suspect 30 is perceived by the targeting AI as unbreakable.

[Argitoth]

WELP, that settles it. No AI bug, no mounted commander bug.

[Argitoth]

Save and Quit ends your turn.
If you login to a server and go to options and click "Save game and Quit," the server shows your turn as having been ended.

[Edi]

Listed already in the SYS category. Argitoth, please check if a bug has already been shortlisted before you post something as a new issue.

[chrispedersen]

I submitted files about a priest attacking a province without PD and with X X Retreat orders.

When X where unactionable orders, the priest would retreat even from a province with routing undead, where the enemy routed first.

Has this made it to the bug list?

[Tuidjy]

I do not see this as a bug. Sometimes I do want to force a retreat. I do not
want the AI disobeying my orders. If the commander sees retreat, he should
retreat, no matter whether the enemy is routing or not.

I absolutely hate the AI deciding that it is smarter than its orders. In my
current game I had a nature mage decide that the enemy is too wimpy for him to
cast serpent's blessing. Instead, the moron goes and casts Touch of Madness on
himself and the longbowmen around him. Not only did I have to endure the poison
of the enemy slingers, I also lost ten longbowmen who managed to squeeze between
the infantry that was on "hold and attack", and got shot up by my troops.

By no means was it a disaster, but it is certainly annoying. Please reduce the
range and worth score of "Touch of Madness", or better yet, make it 'scripted only'
like "Breath of Winter". It seems that every time a nature mage of mine refuses
to use gems, he defaults to "Touch of Madness". And given that gem users are
usually high level mages, who are positioned behind the infantry lines...

[Argitoth]

Edi said:
Zeldor, you are ignoring game mechanics.

1) Mindless units do not retreat from battle. If left without leadership, they die.
2) Combat ends after 75 turns with attackers dying if left on battlefield
3) Golems will never retreat from battle (as per description AND per mindlessness, because he has 50 morale and leads himself)

1+2+3 = attacking Golem dies automatically when turn 75 autorout death is reached. According to the game mechanics, this is WAD. Whether there should be some exceptions built to take this into account is another question entirely, but this is NOT an automatic bug!

As for the wraithlord, was that the same wraithlord or another wraithlord with the same equipment? And were there alternate routes from A to B?



So I just lost a supercombatant to the 50-turn limit thing in Dominions. As a matter of fact, the limit is 50, not 75. I'm wondering if this is considered a bug or not. Regardless, it's a serious issue. It ruins the fun of the game.

It's really funny how I lost the golem actually. The 50-turn limit hit one or two battle rounds before the battle would have been over. I was seriously unlucky in this battle. Everything I did in that battle helped me reach the 50-turn limit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Edi]

Chris, that's not a bug, that's WAD. If units have unactionable orders, they do something else (e.g. a mage scripted to cast something that doesn't have enough range to reach enemy, he casts something else instead). If there is nothing else they can do (essentially can't shoot or can't cast a spell), they move on to the next order in the script, check if it's actionable etc. If the oreder is retreat, it's triggered. If retreat orders are not specified in the script, the default order is attack if nothing else can be done.

Argitoth, the golem issue is in the bug list with a request for clarification on whether it is a bug or working as it should. Without input from IW, that's all I can do.

[chrispedersen]

Edi,

Then why have me send in turn files, if its WAD?
Also, its still peculiar.

Say for example the order was

Banish, Banish, Retreat.
But there are no units within Banish range.

If you have mages scripted for fireball, fireball, retreat they will cast SOME spell (usually like fireshield) twice -it won't just skip forward to the retreat.

But the priest immediately retreats first turn. I believe this is a defect of AI, and I reproduced it like
5 times.

[chrispedersen]

actually the limit is 50 turns with additional turns, depending on whats there.

I don't recall all the details.. but on 50 the attacker gets a rout order. On turn like 60 mindless or enraged units start getting killed etc.

If you search around theres a thread on it.

[Argitoth]

Chrispedersen, it's turn 50, not 60. I counted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And I seriously doubt it depends on anything.

[NTJedi]

I've always disagreed with the "Auto_Death" after 50, 75 and 100 turns. I've tried to make the point it should be an "Auto_Retreat". For any unit or commander to be killed because of a time limitation is wrong on many levels. Unfortunately as long as this remains every Ascension War between pretenders will have to follow the rules of the all powerful union or it means "Auto_Death" on the battlefield.

Union Rules:
Attacker auto-retreats first at 5pm
Defender auto-retreats second at 8pm
Death for any which disobey these union battlefield rules.

===== anyways ====
/threads/images/Graemlins/Bug.gif update:
The bug where iron will removes the blessing from shroud of the saint is also reproduced when ironskin is casted. So it's not just iron will.

[Kristoffer O]

The first one is an auto retreat, but some units don't retreat. Paralyzed beings included. Thus the 75 turn check kills units to prevent battles from going on for ever.

Edit: mindless units that rout dies.

[vfb]

Without auto-death, it's possible that a battle could never end. You could have two fatigued armies passed out on the battlefield, neither able to kill the other, and not even able to retreat even if they wanted to.

Oh wait ... maybe I see what you're saying. When turn 100 is reached, just treat the entire attacking army as if it *had* retreated, and flee it to the surrounding provinces. Sounds like it might work.

[vfb]

The 75% HP loss auto-route does not take into account the full HP of additional forms. Like Cor2 above, I had a mage flee an assassination attempt because the mage was carrying a bottle of living water, and the elemental's first form dropped to 7HP. Looks pretty nonsensical when you watch the battle.

[Argitoth]

I don't see why mindless beings have to die. They walked themselves to the battle, they should be able to walk themselves out of it.

I don't mind the 50 turn limit, I logically explain by saying "attacking army is tired, they are retreating so that they can regroup and make another attack." That's completely logical. Now, mindless beings ruin that logic by dieing. If mindless beings can't retreat, that means whatever is controlling them can no longer control them. They can attack, but they can't retreat. That makes no sense.

What I mean is...say a mage controls some undead to enter a battle. It's illogical to say that the mage all of a sudden loses control of the undead and cannot make the undead retreat along with the rest of the army. It's like saying you can turn something ON but you can't turn it OFF.

Really, WE DON'T NEED LOGIC TO EXPLAIN THE 50 TURN LIMIT! If my mindless supercombatant dies because of a turn limit I start to dislike Dominions. If I start to dislike dominions, that means I might not reccomend dominions to someone else. That means money loss. That means customer loss. Maybe I won't buy Illwinter products in the future. BY THE WAY, I did recommend Dominions to a friend recently, and he did buy the game. I'm not just spouting words.

I think this rule should be changed not in the name of logic, but in the name of fun. By the way, FYI, games are supposed to be fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Edit: Wait, why are golems mindless if they can walk themselves around? I think if we remove the mindless attribute, that would solve the problem for me.


vfb said:Oh wait ... maybe I see what you're saying. When turn 100 is reached, just treat the entire attacking army as if it *had* retreated, and flee it to the surrounding provinces. Sounds like it might work.



That is, in my opinion, the best solution. Even better if the armies go back to the province they attacked from. Not only that, 100 is a better turn limit than 50.

[Zeldor]

Kristoffer O:

For SC commander that is mindless it really shouldn't be like that. 50-turn limit should force all creatures with their minds to retreat and thus all mindless would dissolve. On a Golem 'never routs' makes it an disadvantage, not a good thing. He is a commander, he should be able to fight till the end [auto-kill on turn 75 could be somewhat tolerated more, but still unfair].

[Kristoffer O]

Thematically:
The golem is animated with a divine word and it acts on that principle. It is in his nature to acts and not to rout. When forced to rout the divine principle is broken and the golem is rendered inanimate.

Mechanics:
We can't make exceptions on mechanics for all units that should behave in a particular way. Exceptions are fun and interesting, but are time consuming and makes the code more jumbled.

Argitoth:
I think it is fun when my enemy's golem dies.

Retreating mages lose control over their undead just like I lose control over my students, when I rout from my classroom. I wish I could have the necromancers prudence and skill to make my students disappear when I rout.
I'm also under the rule of 50 turns. I automatically rout from my class after 50 min. If I am prevented from fleeing, I will pass out after 75 minutes.

Also I don't care much about customer loss. By now I'm pretty certain there are people who like my game, as well as people who dislike it. I'm content with knowing that there are people who like what I made, and I'm happy to continue working on projects I believe they will like in the future. It is nice if I do fix things that people like, but I will not fix things I think are OK or good. I might change my opinion on different matters though.

[Argitoth]

Kristoffer O said:Argitoth:
I think it is fun when my enemy's golem dies.


I like to play fair games. If it were me, knowing I caused a massive lost to my enemy because of a turn limit, I wouldn't find it very fun.

"I win the battle because my tartarian got paralyzed for 50 turns and wasn't killed, so your golem is dead."

How easy is it to remove the mindless attribute from golems in a mod? That will be my solution.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
... Thus the 75 turn check kills units to prevent battles from going on for ever.




Here's the major problem... what should be done is an 'auto-retreat' instead of an 'auto-killed' . This 'auto-retreat' means at turn 75 any units remaining on the battlefield are instantly retreated to a friendly neighboring province. The 'auto-retreat' means instant and automatically completed thus ending the battle.


The 'auto-retreat' means very powerful SC's unable to conquer provinces leave and return another day to continue the battle. The 'auto-death' currently in existence means every Ascension War has this all powerful union establishment which enforces death on the battlefield.

[Kristoffer O]

The auto kill is there as some units don't retreat. Target was paralyzed, stunned and immobile units, as other units supposedly already had been auto-routed.

What units do not get routed by autorout?
Berserkers

[Argitoth]

If it's too hard to remove auto kill from the game, the only solution is to raise the turn limit. Why 50? Why not 100? Why not 500? Why not the limit be a game setting before a game is created? Maybe that's too complicated to program.

It's easy for the computer to process turns in which not much is happening. By turn 50, turns can be processed very quickly because most units have died and the rest are paralyzed or locked in a very small never-ending battle. 500 sounds good to me.

[thejeff]

He's not saying that there doesn't need to be a mechanism to handle units that don't rout.

He's suggesting they get automatically moved to a neighboring province, as if they'd routed instead of just being killed.

[Argitoth]

The link leads to a video I created of the battle in question.

http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/battle/dominionsbattle_flash.html (Flash Encoding 6.5mb)

Tartarian gets paralyzed, but can't be killed by the melee units. Tartarian gets unparalyzed, my golem dies before it can end the battle by killing the tartarian.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
The auto kill is there as some units don't retreat. Target was paralyzed, stunned and immobile units, as other units supposedly already had been auto-routed.

What units do not get routed by autorout?
Berserkers



Beserkers, sleepers, paralyzed, immobile units are auto_killed. Here are two scenarios I experienced which display why auto-retreat works better than auto-kill.

One scenario I experienced was my beserked SC was trying to kill over a thousand mindless units such as skelletons... the enemy retreated yet my beserked SC could not kill all the remaining mindless units before being auto-killed himself by the time limit.

Another scenario I experienced was my SC was killing hundreds of different types of units. Eventually the enemy was retreating yet enemy dispossed spirits fleeing ran into my SC and paralyzed him. The dispossed spirits could not flee or harm the SC yet they had him continously paralyzed. My SC was then killed by the time limit.


I understand and agree we don't want the battles lasting forever yet a better solution is having an auto-retreat instead of the auto-kill. Auto-retreating meaning the battle ends and units/commanders flee to a friendly nieghboring province.

[Kristoffer O]

> He's suggesting they get automatically moved to a neighboring province, as if they'd routed instead of just being killed.

I'm more unfond of a sphinx reappearing in a neighboring province than a golem dying because he was too slow on killing stuff.

[Kristoffer O]

I'm more inclined to raise the limit, but I don't see the point, since it affects everyone the same. Just like starvation rate or income or whatever. It is a feature you know and have to deal with.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
I'm more unfond of a sphinx reappearing in a neighboring province than a golem dying because he was too slow on killing stuff.



Easy solution... auto-retreat only the attackers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Argitoth]

NT Jedi, I hate to argue against your ideas, but how can you solve the part where immobiles attack via teleportation? For the sake of getting rid of auto-kill, I'd just say it's fair to move the immobile to a neighboring province, but Kristoffer probably wouldn't agree with me.

If Kristoffer does agree to do this, I hope he can also raise the turn limit a little bit; a one-two punch to this "problem." It would make me happy, anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[NTJedi]

With regards to immobile the end result should be the same result as what happens now when using map edit commands and placing two different nations on the same province. This scenario would have the defender still owning the province and the attacking immobile sitting on top without access to anything within the province. Thus next turn results in an instant battle.

This might be too much programming... so as a second option leave the auto-kill for only immobiles and provide an auto-retreat for only attackers.

An increase for battle turns would be appreciated... as time passes it's inevitable gamers will need to upgrade their computers. The computers of today and tomorrow can handle the increased battle turns. On reflection for increasing battle turns... anytime we've seen in increase for commander and unit limits we've only seen praise and happiness in the community.

[Wick]

I'm with NT-Jedi. For me, auto-killing is worse then un-teleporting them back, or vortexing them home, or just declaring they successfully left the field, with or without immobiles. They are all arbitrary solutions to keep the game playable but killing a unit *because* it's safe from whatever it's fighting is just ugly. YMMV.

[Loren]

vfb said:
Without auto-death, it's possible that a battle could never end. You could have two fatigued armies passed out on the battlefield, neither able to kill the other, and not even able to retreat even if they wanted to.

Oh wait ... maybe I see what you're saying. When turn 100 is reached, just treat the entire attacking army as if it *had* retreated, and flee it to the surrounding provinces. Sounds like it might work.



Somebody's going to wake up and start bashing again.

I think the answer is different: Starting at turn 40 count the total hp's of the real (not battlefield summons) units in the fight. Note the highest value in the 40-50 turn range. In every subsequent 10 turn range note the highest value, compare with the saved value. If it's equal or higher it's time for a rout. If it's lower, replace the saved value with the new value. Note that since the hp's must always be declining the battle will end eventually.

If it's determined that a rout should happen look at the retreat options for both sides. If a side can retreat, rout that side. Do not rout a side that can't retreat at this point. These routs apply to *ALL* units, even those normally immune from routing.

Continue the hp checks, if they call for a rout *AGAIN*, rout both sides.

If the check hits a third time then you force everything off the battlefield. Anything capable of teleporting to the capital does so, anything else dies.

So long as the battle is making progress it will continue. If it deadlocks the guy who can retreat does so--realistically the guy who has noplace to go won't stop a useless battle.

The second case is to deal with the possibility that nobody can retreat. Two armies teleport into battle or the like. The final case removes any units that can't move.

[chrispedersen]

Many of us don't *like* SC's. So theres a game balance question between SC's and nonSC's.

One of the ways to defeat an SC is just have so much chaff that he CANT kill it all in 50 turns.

Leave as is.

[vfb]

I've made a new thread where we can discuss our ideas about this without cluttering the bug reporting thread:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=600558

[chrispedersen]

Perhaps I'm not understanding things:

According to the ONI uni descriptions (e.g.,Kuro-Oni)

"Oni are almost immortal. If their body is slain, their spirit will survive.....if the spirit is not slain or banished as well, it will reform a new body over time."

Now, according to the unit db, kuro oni - and others use the 1rstshape / 2ndshape commands. Whats the big deal?

Well, according to manual, changing upon death should be handled by the secondtmpshape command.

The issue as I see it - is that the Oni currently change upon any significant damage, rather than upon death. So, not only does this vary with the unit as described it has game implications, nameley:

1. Oni units may change from a missile troop to a non missile troop.
2. Effective strength decreases. Instead of being able to absorb one hit, damage irrelevent and then revert to a second shape, the unit reverts somewhere around 50%. This means a 4-12 effective hit point difference.

Or am I completely misunderstanding something?

[Edi]

Chris, regarding the priest issue that you reported, it was covered earlier, but to recap and clarify:


chrispedersen said:

Edi said:

chrispedersen said:
I submitted files about a priest attacking a province without PD and with X X Retreat orders.

When X where unactionable orders, the priest would retreat even from a province with routing undead, where the enemy routed first.

Has this made it to the bug list?


Chris, that's not a bug, that's WAD. If units have unactionable orders, they do something else (e.g. a mage scripted to cast something that doesn't have enough range to reach enemy, he casts something else instead). If there is nothing else they can do (essentially can't shoot or can't cast a spell), they move on to the next order in the script, check if it's actionable etc. If the oreder is retreat, it's triggered. If retreat orders are not specified in the script, the default order is attack if nothing else can be done.


Edi,

Then why have me send in turn files, if its WAD?
Also, its still peculiar.

Say for example the order was

Banish, Banish, Retreat.
But there are no units within Banish range.

If you have mages scripted for fireball, fireball, retreat they will cast SOME spell (usually like fireshield) twice -it won't just skip forward to the retreat.

But the priest immediately retreats first turn. I believe this is a defect of AI, and I reproduced it like
5 times.


It is not a bug, as you suggest. The reason why priests rout much more easily from an unactionable script items is because they do not have alternatives they can use unlike most other mages. Take your example of a fire mage who's out of range of a fireball and thus can't cast it. Since the order is <cast fireball> and it can't be done, the AI reads it as <cast something else that is usable, if possible>. So the mage is likely to cast fire shield, or fire resistance, or fire fend or phoenix power or any number of other fire spells that could either buff the mage, buff troops or hurt the enemy.

A priest has very few options in this regard. Sermon of courage is one, holy avenger another, but a Lv 1 priest can't do that or anything else useful, so when out of range he skips cast orders until he hits retreat and then does that because it is actionable. If you want the priest to stay on the field for the full five turns regardless of actionable orders or not, the proper script would be <blessing><hold or cast><hold or cast><hold or cast><hold or cast><retreat>.

So everything is working exactly as it should. As long as a caster can cast something that actually does something useful, they will, and only then will skip to next order. If retreat orders are involved and absolutely must not be executed before specified, <hold or cast> is your only option.

The reason why turn files should be sent with unusual bugs is that they can be analyzed if necessary. Often things can be puzzled out without them, such as now, but I simply do not have the resources to immediately jump on everything. It is also important to take into account how things work in Dominions, because the mechanics can sometimes cause behavior that looks like a bug if you are not familiar with it. The manual does a good job of describing most mechanics and observation of the game in action should provide a lot of additional information if one pays attention. This was one such example.

[Endoperez]

vfb said:
The 75% HP loss auto-route does not take into account the full HP of additional forms. Like Cor2 above, I had a mage flee an assassination attempt because the mage was carrying a bottle of living water, and the elemental's first form dropped to 7HP. Looks pretty nonsensical when you watch the battle.



Personally, I'd like to see this re-handled. Little memory would have to be reserved for "total hp including shapechanges" stat, but it would only have to be calculated once for each monster type, and that'd be automatic. The amount of hp would be shown when you viewed extra info about hp; alternatively, it could be shown instead of the hp left for the current form. It would work fine for hydras or elementals, but not so well for e.g. Machakan sorceresses whose spider-form shouldn't be seen, or for units whose second form disappears after battle.

[chrispedersen]

#magicskill 8 1
#custommagic 13312 100 will work

#custommagic 46080 100 won't and will make a unit old?

Whats up? AKA., Random priest seems not to work.

[Kristoffer O]

> Whats up? AKA., Random priest seems not to work.

It is not possible in the code I recently discovered, so I would would be surprised if it was possible in modding. THere are however instances where I can do less in the code then you can in modding so I'm not sure here.

[chrispedersen]

Well, the manual says you can... #custommagic
Woohoo Bug! Do I win a donut?

[chrispedersen]

Modding spells is much less than ideal in many circumstances. The AI has no knowledge of the spell and therefore will not weight nor cast it.

Similiarly, it is a frustrating feature that carefully scripted orders go awry as the AI makes its own weighting.

It would be interesting if there were a modding method, and an ingame option table, where one could creating weighting tables.

For the ingame option - it would perhaps only allow you to create a table of maybe 5 entries. And you could add up to 100 weighting for up to 5 spells. Or deprecate 5 spells by a like amount.

This weighting would be added to the AI determined weighting value. Since the same table would be used in all random events, battles, assassinations etc it still prevents micromanaging while allowing players to hopefully have some better control, especially on really important battles.

[vfb]

I managed to Enslave Mind my opponent's prophet. Now I've got it as a normal unit, but ... it's still a Prophet!

It's a unit, not a commander. Its title is "Prophet". But it's blessed (outside combat), with my bless, and has the Prophet icon.

I'll GOR it in a couple months and see if it's still an H3 priest. I wonder if my opponent will be able to make a new prophet in 6 months, or if he'll have to wait until 6 months after the one I stole dies.

[Edi]

I think the prophet is counted as dead, so he should get a prophet. But GoRing him would be an interesting experiment.

[Kristoffer O]

vfb said:
I managed to Enslave Mind my opponent's prophet. Now I've got it as a normal unit, but ... it's still a Prophet!

It's a unit, not a commander. Its title is "Prophet". But it's blessed (outside combat), with my bless, and has the Prophet icon.

I'll GOR it in a couple months and see if it's still an H3 priest. I wonder if my opponent will be able to make a new prophet in 6 months, or if he'll have to wait until 6 months after the one I stole dies.



THe question is not if he can make a new prophet. THe question is if you can make another. Prphet is yours now after all.

[Sombre]

chrispedersen said:
Modding spells is much less than ideal in many circumstances. The AI has no knowledge of the spell and therefore will not weight nor cast it.




I've seen modded spells cast unscripted. Happens all the time with Skaven for instance. The AI does the usual comparison of fatigue cost and potential damage in order to decide whether to cast it.

[Kristoffer O]

It might be that the AI is bad at recognizing buffs. Damage dealing spells are more straight forward and the AI can compute how much damage they would deal.

[vfb]

If you give two shields to an non-mounted unit with no legs (eg. Unit #333 Starspawn), it will get a Fist attack (Wpn #92).

[capnq]

A minor oddity, probably related to the debate about poison darts/arrows:

A Phantasmal Warrior attacked an Atlantian Light Infantry, then died of poison damage from "touching" the Atlantian's Coral Curaiss.

[Kristoffer O]

Phantasms made poison resistant.

[Loren]

It causes a battlefield effect that has no description.

[Edi]

vfb said:
If you give two shields to an non-mounted unit with no legs (eg. Unit #333 Starspawn), it will get a Fist attack (Wpn #92).


WAD. Default weapon for units that have no other weapon is fist. It also assigns fist if you only give a unit a missile weapon when you define them. The only way to totally remove weapons from units is using the mod command #weapon to give them a weapon outside the range of existing weapons (results in no weapon at all).

So when 2 shields defaults to useless kick if the unit has legs, everything else defaults to fist.

[Agrajag]

Suggestion:
Two shields -> Useless Kick
Two shields + no legs -> Headbutt
Two shields + no legs + no head -> Bodyslam

[Renojustin]

I'm not sure what kind of wrestling you're watching, but a body slam definitely requires two arms to effect.

[Saulot]

I believe Agrajag meant running into someone with your body, not picking someone up and slamming them down.

This may not be effective using a human, but we're talking about something with no legs or head,... an earth elemental maybe? Wouldn't really come up too often.

[Agrajag]

Renojustin said:
I'm not sure what kind of wrestling you're watching


I don't watch wrestling.


Saulot said:
I believe Agrajag meant running into someone with your body, not picking someone up and slamming them down.


Yep, you slam into someone with your body http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[ano]

Just noticed... Seems like a bug.
Sun priests of Late Mictlan have names not specific to the nation (e.g. Xocotl, Amimitl etc) but the standard commander names (Ptago, Onbec etc.)
Seems a bit strange when looking at commander screen))

[Edi]

Thanks! They have wrong nametype, I'll bring that up on the beta forum so it might get fixed without needing to wait for the next patch.

[Reay]

Units with forest survival can go through mountain provinces without hindrance as long as there is a forest also in the province.

Looks like it just assumes mixed mountain/forest provinces are forest provinces for movement as well as for castle building.

[chrispedersen]

Perhaps this is well known; or perhaps I'm doing something wrong however:

if you make 30, 10% chances of getting any magic path you consistently get *3* magic pics. The paths are random - but it looks like all 30 10% paths just get compiled.

I was trying an extreme example I wanted to get some instances where you'd get 3 magic or 2 or 5. Comments?

Also, all priests have to be holy. Doesn't seem to be any reason for it, and thematically I wanted to create people that knew the word of god, and preached the word of god - but weren't holy.

[Edi]

Reay: That is consistent with observed behavior and does not seem to be a bug. The fort built in a province is always the type for the terrain with the lowest terrain mask (forest, mountain, waste, farm, swamp, in that order IIRC). The movement behavior was unknown to me, but it is a logical continuation of checking movement against terrain and matching the first one. This would mean that mountain survival would allow passing a mountain/swamp terrain mix unhindered.

[Zeldor]

Why there is nothing about Old Age affecting Undead on the short list?

Undead unit can suffer from Decay spell, gain many years for free and a lot of diseases. Old undead also gets bigger spellcasting encumbrance, lowered attack, strength etc.

And you can get really huge amount of afflictions on tartarian when you get hit with decay, even around 6-10 in one battle.

[Edi]

Perhaps because if it was reported, it was done somewhere around page 10 or otherwise early in the bug thread or it was not reported at all or I may have missed it in other threads? I'm not infallible and sometimes I miss things.

I've got my hands full with that thing and I also have a life outside these forums even if it sometimes looks like I'm on here all the time.

[Edi]

chris:

The magic display is WAD. It just counts the total number of 100% increments, so 30x 10% = 3x 100% and that gets displayed. The priests required to be sacred things is probably so that holy magic is restricted or there may be some legacy things in the mechanics that just require things to be so. It's not going to change, I think.

[thejeff]

And why shouldn't undead suffer from Old Age?

With time, even the dead suffer. It takes centuries, but the flesh rots away and even the bones decay.

[Dedas]

Not if you rub those o'l bones with anti-age skin cream extra moist deluxe. The undead are big consumers of health creams you know.

[Endoperez]

Dedas said:
Not if you rub those o'l bones with anti-age skin cream extra moist deluxe. The undead are big consumers of health creams you know.



Elixir of Life and bathing in the blood of virgins (i.e. Rejuvenate)?

[Zeldor]

Because it says so in their description http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[chrispedersen]

Hey Edi..
I appreciate you taking the time to answer all my questions. Thanks for the answer. But I really don't think its Working As Described... the manual says its a percentage chance, to get the path, use multiples if you want multiple chances.

Two 50% chances to get death or nature - is not the same as 1 100% chance.

[Edi]

It displays the 30x 10% as 3 picks, but when you right click on it, it'll still be the 30 10% chances. You get 3 on average but it does have to roll each 10% chance separately.

[Loren]

Something's bugged but it's probably only a message.

This was my first encounter with a cave fort. I was sieging Agartha's capital. A probe showed it would be a nasty battle in there, especially as my army was based around elephants and I didn't have any high level mages.

I fired something like a dozen seeker arrows into the province, each time I got the message saying it had locked onto an appropriate target. I sent another probe into the cave--no damage. In the meantime I had gotten some better mages and I fired a Flames from the Sky--for zero kills.

Ok, I can believe you can't shoot into a cave fortress but if so I shouldn't get the message that the seeker arrow locked onto an appropriate target.

I finally took him out with a dominion kill.

[Cor2]

Loren,
The seeker arrows were likely only hitting high HP units, meaning no kills. Same for flames. It would have been effective against normal humans, but Argarthans have like 30 hp!

[Loren]

Cor2 said:
Loren,
The seeker arrows were likely only hitting high HP units, meaning no kills. Same for flames. It would have been effective against normal humans, but Argarthans have like 30 hp!



High HP's is why I figured the seeker arrows were failing. Not all the units there were high hp, though, the flames should have gotten something.

Or should you simply never fire flames at Agartha?

[Edi]

Cave castle may have some sort mechanic which protects against those spells.

[Argitoth]

Castle disappears with random event.

The event that causes bogarus and the other heroes to take your province will cause your castle to disappear if it happens to land on it. Strangly, the temple still remains even though it's owned by an independent nation. I hope they aren't spreading dominion! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[ano]

Found a serious bug recently.
If you wish for a magic lamp and some nation has a summoned Djinn, it stays in play and when you cast "Summon Djinn" there will be two Djinns in play. So you may have as many Djinns as want using this technique.

[Herode]

Artefact vanishes after a battle :

During a battle I had a commander killed who owned a starshine skullcap.
After the battle, the message panel displays a message : "XXX has found a starshine skullcap", but this commander does not have the artefact in his slots, nor has any other commander in this province.

[Endoperez]

Herode said:
Artefact vanishes after a battle :

During a battle I had a commander killed who owned a starshine skullcap.
After the battle, the message panel displays a message : "XXX has found a starshine skullcap", but this commander does not have the artefact in his slots, nor has any other commander in this province.



Who was the commander that reportedly found it? The item should appear on his head slot; does he have a head slot, or was there already something on his head?

[Herode]

Of course yes/not : the commander is a Hannya, she still has her head firmly fixed on her elbows and the slot is free.

[Argitoth]

Argitoth said:
Castle disappears with random event.

The event that causes bogarus and the other heroes to take your province will cause your castle to disappear if it happens to land on it. Strangly, the temple still remains even though it's owned by an independent nation. I hope they aren't spreading dominion! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Update: The reason my temple is still visible in that province is because my castle wasn't destroyed. A few turns later I got a message "your castle is under siege." So basically the castle reappeared, but was never TRUELY gone, however it was gone "enough" that all my mages died in a battle OUTSIDE the castle when they attacked. They were not patrolling, trust me.

[Argitoth]

Unique Summon Prophet Bug

If you summon, say, an Earth King, make it a prophet, have it die, resummon it, it's still a prophet. You can then make another units a prophet. I don't believe there was a "you can now create a new prophet" message at any time.

[Lingchih]

Wow, that's way cool. I will have to use it.

[ano]

Moreover, if you wish for a prophet Earth king and charm him, he'll be a prophet. I think that any charmed prophet will retain his priestly powers.
However, I'm not sure it is a bug.

[chrispedersen]

Alternate shape is listed as Frost father - yet does not have frost father's chill, nor cold power. (does have his cold resistance).

Bug?

[Edi]

chrispedersen said:
Alternate shape is listed as Frost father - yet does not have frost father's chill, nor cold power. (does have his cold resistance).

Bug?


Check the DB. There are two frost fathers, one for the rainbow mage, one for the alternate dragon shape. Read the bloody instructions in the shortlist thread on how to report bugs and check the bloody monster ID numbers.

[ano]

Edi, could you please put the bug with summoning multiple Djinns into the shortlist. Actually, if I didn't test it, it would cost me much in my current game.

[Edi]

I'll add that. I've got a lot of stuff going on, so the shortlist may not always be immediately updated. That one is going to have to wait for the next patch anyway.

[ano]

Another bug. With the global Sea of Ice up, troops can still move from one water province to another through land one (meaning they need to go out of the water and then in again)

[chrispedersen]

Read the whole damn thing prior to asking Edi.

A simple no would have been faster on your part. Look, the fact of the matter is.. is there are HUNDREDS of bugs. It is not fast, nor easy to determine what is a bug, and what isn't.

Because you have an encyclopedic knowledge of issues, you may not assume everyone does. You may reasonably assume a reasonable effort. Which I made.

Toleration of idiocy (newbs) attempting to be helpful *is* one of the reqs of the job.

And even though ya bit my head off - thanks for doing the job.

[Endoperez]

chrispedersen said:
Read the whole damn thing prior to asking Edi.

A simple no would have been faster on your part. Look, the fact of the matter is.. is there are HUNDREDS of bugs. It is not fast, nor easy to determine what is a bug, and what isn't.

And even though ya bit my head off - thanks for doing the job.



I think the problem was not giving the unit ID (267) of the human form, not duplicate reporting or reporting something that isn't a bug.

[Edi]

ano said:
Another bug. With the global Sea of Ice up, troops can still move from one water province to another through land one (meaning they need to go out of the water and then in again)


Thanks. It was already known the AI is not affected, but this behavior is new.


chrispedersen said:
Read the whole damn thing prior to asking Edi.

A simple no would have been faster on your part. Look, the fact of the matter is.. is there are HUNDREDS of bugs. It is not fast, nor easy to determine what is a bug, and what isn't.

Because you have an encyclopedic knowledge of issues, you may not assume everyone does. You may reasonably assume a reasonable effort. Which I made.

Toleration of idiocy (newbs) attempting to be helpful *is* one of the reqs of the job.

And even though ya bit my head off - thanks for doing the job.


Endo is correct in what he says. I don't assume everyone knows the shortlist or the DB by heart. No way they really can. But the instructions on reporting monster bugs clearly say you should include the monster ID numbers and tells you how to check them. In case you have two differing frost fathers, this would mean you check both their numbers. And that simple check would have revealed to you that you are dealing with different monsters. I tried to make the instructions as precise as possible to avoid unnecessary reports.

That said, sorry about the harshness. Have had a lot to deal with lately, though that is not exactly an acceptable reason. You were right to rebuke me.

[Reverend Zombie]

Monster number 1748, Armor number 51

Neither fatigue aura nor Soul Vortex effect seem to be working when I have the Mandaha equipped with Bone Armor.

[Edi]

Reverend Zombie said:
Monster number 1748, Armor number 51

Neither fatigue aura nor Soul Vortex effect seem to be working when I have the Mandaha equipped with Bone Armor.


Will add to the list. There is already a bug that wearing a spirit helmet cancels out soul vortex, so this could be due to interference from mandaha's ability to autocast darkness at the beginning of battle and the bone armor autocasting soul cortex for him. I don't know, but it bears investigating.

[Edi]

Added Bone Armor soul vortex and a couple of otehr item bugs. Found below spells in the shortlist.

[ryo_akashi]

The chalice does not seem to be attracting questing knights to attack the holder.

Discussion thread:
Chalice not attracting questing knights (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=545751&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[chrispedersen]

Has anyone tested the #ap command in 3.15? I have tried to cut a move to 0 with no success. Similarly one.

Also tried negative numbers - no dif.

[Reverend Zombie]

Edi said:

Reverend Zombie said:
Monster number 1748, Armor number 51

Neither fatigue aura nor Soul Vortex effect seem to be working when I have the Mandaha equipped with Bone Armor.


Will add to the list. There is already a bug that wearing a spirit helmet cancels out soul vortex, so this could be due to interference from mandaha's ability to autocast darkness at the beginning of battle and the bone armor autocasting soul cortex for him. I don't know, but it bears investigating.



Oops!--that means there was a confounding variable, since my Mandaha was *also* wearing a Spirit Helment.

At any rate, something in the combo of items my Mandaha wore cancelled out both the Bone Armor's Soul Vortex effect as well as the Mandaha's fatigue aura.

[Edi]

Yaii! Could you post a full listing of what that particular guy was wearing?

Not enough that you had to have bone armor and spirit helmet, but on a unit that autocasts a battlefield enchantment and has a fatigue aura to boot...

*head explodes* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Reverend Zombie]

Frost brand; vine shield; pendant of luck; ring of regeneration; chi shoes; spirit helmet; bone armor.

He's since died, or I'd do the control-I thing to get the item numbers.

[Edi]

No problem on that. They're not such a big issue since the number of items is limited and the only ones that have duplicate names are Sword of Sharpness and Staff of the Elements.

Though it might be useful for the future to know that you can also get the item numbers by selecting the items in the forging screen and hitting shift-i.

The biggest problem is when people leave unit numbers or weapon numbers out since there are e.g. 6 units named heavy infantry, 4 or 5 named light infantry, 3x Anathemant Salamander, 3x Anathemant Dragon etc.

[cleveland]

Figured I'd put this in the right place:

cleveland said:
Minor inconsistency found! Just in time for the next patch!

MA Eriu’s Tuatha lacks a “hoof” attack, yet it's lesser “Sidhe Lord” has one.

I highly recommend giving the Tuatha a “hoof” attack.

[Edi]

Thanks. Sorry I forgot about that.

But what did I say about the monster numbers in just the above post? This one is waiting until I get that before going into the shortlist. It will probably also have to wait for the past after the currently imminent one. I expect we'll have a new crop of statfixes for the new units to add anyway, though we managed to weed most of those out in the beta.

[Kristoffer O]

Just fixed this one, so leave the tuatha, or make it green. Ri had the same problem.

[Drake49]

I was looking at Patala, and it seems to have bugged morale for the Yogi, the S1 mage. His morale is 7. Seven????? Is there any mage in the game with a morale of 7 besides him? Also, the Brahmin priest, who I know is useless, also seems to have a morale of 7. It doesn't matter, but shouldn't a priest have a higher morale?

A morale of 7 is lower than militia! Is an S1 mage really more of a coward than an untrained farmer? I guess he really doesn't care what he is 'reborn' as, because given his courage, it's going to be a Markata.

[NTJedi]

/threads/images/Graemlins/Bug.gif
When casting the spell "Rain" everything works as expected with the spell, however when highlighting the icon on the top right there's a TYPO.
It reads: Natuaral Rain

Should be: Natural Rain

[Reverend Zombie]

NTJedi said:
/threads/images/Graemlins/Bug.gif
When casting the spell "Rain" everything works as expected with the spell, however when highlighting the icon on the top right there's a TYPO.
It reads: Natuaral Rain

Should be: Natural Rain



Shouldn't it be "Magical Rain", actually?

[Edi]

Rain typo is known, I've been collecting a list of things which have typos. May not be fixed for the 3.17/3.18 patch that is due out soon but the one after that.

[Twan]

Burden of Time

Mages with twiceborn killed by the unnatural aging (note youth items don't work to stop BoT aging, but it may be WAD) come back as diseased wight mages with 1hp.

Wight mages and other diseased undeads seem to suffer when BoT is in effect, they gain new afflictions and never heal (but don't lose their last hp at least)

[ryo_akashi]

Abysian Commander (M992) is armed with an Axe, although the sprite shows the commander using a Battleaxe.

[MaxWilson]

Contrary to KO's specifications, spellcasters can blow more than one "extra" gem to reduce fatigue. This is almost invariably uneconomical. Example here. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=608861)

-Max

[Twan]

Twan said:
Burden of Time
(...)

Wight mages and other diseased undeads seem to suffer when BoT is in effect, they gain new afflictions and never heal (but don't lose their last hp at least)



It's even stranger than that.
turn x -> my mage (who had already never healing wound) dies due to BoT effect and become a 1hp wight (with disease +nhw)
turn x+1 -> the wight still has 1hp and gain crippled affliction (no battle nor event so BoT can be the only cause)
turn x+2 -> the wight suddenly has 18hp, no new affliction

My best guess is : each time an unit is selected to take the extra aging from BoT, disease cause afflictions even affecting undeads, and natural healing doesn't occur (but the last hp isn't lost by undeads). But only a limited number of units are affected by BoT (number shown in BoT messsage) each turn, and the others will heal if undead.

EDIT : in fact any twiceborned mage dying from disease (even when BoT isn't in effect) become a wight mage with 1hp (but heal the next turn).

BoT seem to make undeads continue to suffer from their disease and not heal in some cases (not always).

[lch]

MaxWilson said:
Contrary to KO's specifications, spellcasters can blow more than one "extra" gem to reduce fatigue. This is almost invariably uneconomical. Example here. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=608861)


KO just didn't understand how it works then. It's all in the manual. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif A mage can use as many gems for a spell as his magic level is. This includes the gem cost for the spell. If he has a magic level of 5, then he can use 5 gems. If the spell costs 3 gems, then he can use 2 gems to reduce fatigue. Additionally, he can use exactly one (1) gem to increase his magic level to cast a spell that's higher than his current level. Since he'll be casting a spell over his magic level, he'll receive additional fatigue by this, it's exactly the reverse to using gems for reducing fatigue. Here are a couple of examples how it works:

Magic level 1, wants to cast spell level 2 which takes no gems: works with 1 additional gem
Magic level 2, wants to cast spell level 3 which takes 2 gems: doesn't work, since he needs 2 gems for the spell, nothing left to raise his path
Magic level 1, wants to cast spell level 2 which takes 1+ gems: doesn't work, since he can only use one gem and needs at least two
Magic level 5, wants to cast spell level 7: doesn't work, since he can only use one gem to raise his path
Magic level 0, wants to cast spell level 1 which takes no gems: doesn't work, since he can only use 0 gems = no gems
Magic level 5, wants to cast spell with level <= 5 which takes 2 gems: works, and he has 3 gems left to reduce fatigue

[lch]

BHV Corrupt/Seduce Retreat: Non-amphibian commanders and victims may retreat to a sea province after a successful seduction attempt, which results in both of them drowning.


This is marked as fixed in the manual, but it still isn't done properly. Attached is a game where I tested it. The proper test should work like this: If seducer and seduced can enter UW provinces (because they're both amphibian/low amphib/aquatic or have items which give that to them, or the global is up etc.) then include UW provinces as viable retreat targets for the seduction. Otherwise don't. So, just apply the same logic as during movement for this. Or only check for the attribute on the seducer and let the damn idiot that got seduced drown. But not the other way around. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MaxWilson]

lch said:
KO just didn't understand how it works then. It's all in the manual. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



IMHO, KO sounded pretty definitive there, which means there's a bug and Bruce documented it in the manual. I don't know whether it's a coding bug or a design/specification bug, but something got messed up somewhere along the way.

-Max

[Endoperez]

MaxWilson said:

IMHO, KO sounded pretty definitive there, which means there's a bug and Bruce documented it in the manual. I don't know whether it's a coding bug or a design/specification bug, but something got messed up somewhere along the way.



That mechanic was made for Dom:PPP, and I doubt it has been changed since. The game was out 2001. That means it's been at least 7 years since that mechanic was made, and furthermore it was coded by Johan, not Kristoffer. While I'm sure that they discuss things they want to have and what kind of results they want to be achievable in the game, I doubt they iron out every mechanic on paper and only code it afterwards. I expect that JK does most of the mechanics-work himself, relying on his and Kristoffer's ideas about the results they want to achieve.

Kristoffer is a great guy, and I certainly listen to him, but he's far from omniscient. He's working on that, though.

[MaxWilson]

Endoperez,

Since Dom:PPP you say? Okay, I think you've made your case. I stand corrected.

-Max

[ryo_akashi]

Should Fossilized Sword (w512) be length 1?

[lch]

lch said:

BHV Corrupt/Seduce Retreat: Non-amphibian commanders and victims may retreat to a sea province after a successful seduction attempt, which results in both of them drowning.


This is marked as fixed in the manual, but it still isn't done properly. Attached is a game where I tested it. The proper test should work like this: If seducer and seduced can enter UW provinces (because they're both amphibian/low amphib/aquatic or have items which give that to them, or the global is up etc.) then include UW provinces as viable retreat targets for the seduction. Otherwise don't. So, just apply the same logic as during movement for this. Or only check for the attribute on the seducer and let the damn idiot that got seduced drown. But not the other way around. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Ah, and I was just a patch level too early to test it. The new patch seems to have this working right like it should. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Edi]

I mark bugs fixed as soon as IW reports them fixed. If there is green stuff mixed in with the black/purple/red, it means those will be working properly when the next patch comes out, but not before. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ozymandias]

Hinnom Ammi can be recruited without a lab.

[Tichy]

Don't think it's a bug. Any mage with no primary path (i.e. only a "?" on the info screen) can be recruited without a lab.

[Edi]

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Shortlist has been updated to reflect the starting situation with v3.17. Need to check the forts issue, as Citadel should be fixed, but it's way too late in the evening for that today.

[MaxWilson]

Bone Grinding is supposed to be MR+ to avoid receiving the "Crippled" affliction, according to the manual. I used the following plus Shift + U to test w/ a D9 Vampire Queen, and got 100 Kuro-Onis with various afflictions (limp, blind, mute) but no Crippled (although I didn't check every single Oni). Either the manual is wrong about the "Crippled" affliction or it's a bug.

#selectspell "Bone Grinding"
#fatiguecost 10
#researchlevel 0
#end

#selectmonster 1274 -- Kuro Oni
#mr 2 -- to make sure they fail the MR+ check
#end

-Max

[capnq]

I couldn't find any previous reports of this with the search function.

In a v1.15 SP game, I got an event in which an independent assassin attacked one of my commanders. In Messages, this was listed as "There was a battle in Cimri (special)." The commander had bodyguards, but they did not take part in the battle. After the commander died, the bodyguards were back in the province's garrison.

Unfortunately, I don't have the previous turn saved to prove that the bodyguards were assigned to the commander before the assassination.

[MaxWilson]

Huh. I had that indy assassin event in my most recent game, too, on turn 2. I hadn't assigned any bodyguards though (in fact it attacked a commander who was recruited on turn 2).

-Max

[Bananadine]

A smallish bug: Darkness penalties are not listed properly in the most detailed stat views for units with darkvision 50. More specifically:

I'm playing as MA Abysia, and Utterdark has been cast. When I click a humanbred's Attack Skill value, I see:

Basic Attack Skill: 10
Darkness: -5
Current Attack Skill: 5

But when I click an Abysian Infantry's Attack Skill value, I see:

Basic Attack Skill: 10
Current Attack Skill: 7

So there's a penalty of 3 points that's applied but not listed.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, I see. It should say "Darkness: -3".

[Twan]

Edi said:

To the short list that goes.

The Mictlan Nahualli used to be upkeep-free, but that was fixed long ago. I missed the Skratti that time around.



Just in case you forgot this (not added in the short list yet).

Units are :

U1652
U1653

[Edi]

Nope, didn't forget. Wasn't around during the weekend and yesterday. I'll add those when I get home later this evening.

[weimaar]

Patch 3.17: Mid age Man commanders cannot build any temples!!!

[Edi]

weimaar said:
Patch 3.17: Mid age Man commanders cannot build any temples!!!


Normal commanders and even sacred commanders cannot and are not supposed to be able to. Commanders with holy magic (e.g. monks) can build temples. Unless you're telling me units with holy magic can't build temples, this is WAD.

[weimaar]

Daughters of avalon and mothers of avalon cannot build the temple. Although they are priests level 1. What is a WAD?

[Edi]

Wrong. Look again more closely. They are sacred units but they do NOT have holy magic of any kind. In fact the only unit in MA Man that does have holy magic is the Monk. The sacred tag looks a bit like holy magic, but not too much. Take a look at the monk to see what I mean.

WAD.

[weimaar]

Youre right Edi, im sorry for taking your time, if you want, you can delete these posts.

[Edi]

It's okay. We all make mistakes. Don't worry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Oh, and WAD = Working As Designed. I had to come up with something to shorten that to because when the I began compiling the bug shortlist, there was a lot of stuff that was being reported as a bug when it was either a feature request or it was, as the acronym says, working as it was supposed to.

Take a look at the shortlist (sticky thread) to get an idea of what we know about and how to report bugs. It is always better to have too much detail than too little when getting bug reports, because extra can be cut out but you can't make information out of nothing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[chrispedersen]

when you save hinnom pretenders from game tools.. they report as early_gath.

Chris

[Edi]

Yes, and it's WAD. That's likely because Gath was the first one of the three to be done. The pretender saving and nation description, brief and summary assignment in the actual game code is severely suboptimal for purposes of managing mods and other similar things.

That section should, in my opinion, be revamped, but whether Illwinter feels the same way is a different thing entirely. It is going to come up for discussion once I finish the 3.17 Dom3 DB and start working on the modding shortlist.

[ano]

From the description of "Enliven Marble Oracle" spell:
"...these telestic animates lumber to and fro in the..."
Should be:
"...these telestic animates lumber to and from in the..."

[Edi]

That's not a bug nor is it a typo. To move to and fro is a saying, it is grammatically correct.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, it means "back and forth."

[Agrajag]

Actually "to and fro" is perfectly acceptable. Not sure if it is intentional though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/to-and-fro

EDIT: Oops, didn't notice there was an extra page http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Sombre]

This is a serious bug which pretty much prevents new mod nations from working.

It appears that #custommagic and #magicskill don't work or have been changed somehow by the new patch. No modded magic users or priests have any paths. Holy, blood, 100% FEW random, doesn't matter - none of it shows up any more.

[Edi]

That bug is peculiar to your system, Sombre. I don't have any problems with my Ermor mod working exactly as it should, whether I make the Shadow Priestess a completely new unit with a new monster number or whether I use an existing unused monster that I replace. I'd need more confirmation of this before I shortlist it.

[NTJedi]

I think the bug Sombre has bumped into is using #custommagic with HOLY magic... I recall hearing someone else claiming "#custommagic with HOLY magic" doesn't work.


====

Edit Update: Tested and Confirmed Bug /threads/images/Graemlins/Bug.gif

"#custommagic with HOLY magic" doesn't work.

[Edi]

Probably. Did not consider that instance, as I did not read it that way.

[ryo_akashi]

I can confirm the existance of the bug. Try it with my Debug mod and Worthy Heroes mod.

If the Worthy Heroes mod is first enabled, and then Debug mod, the Debug Sensei summoned will have no magic skills.

If the Debug mod is first enabled and then Worth Heroes mod, the Debug Sensei will have his magic skills. I did not check if the Worthy Heroes got affected.

[Edi]

What's the overlap? Because holy magic cannot be assigned randomly. We have that from KO himself. So that's a known issue, but is it other magics disappearing too, independent of H randoms?

[chrispedersen]

Holy causes other magic paths to fail.
Also, you can not make 10 20% chances; for example it will just come out as a 200% chance.

[ryo_akashi]

What Sombre said,

"It appears that #custommagic and #magicskill don't work or have been changed somehow by the new patch. No modded magic users or priests have any paths. Holy, blood, 100% FEW random, doesn't matter - none of it shows up any more."

In my case, I used #magicskill and tried to tweak with #magicboost. No magic shows up. Enabling and disabling mod as I mentioned works.

Someone did mention about an absolute numeric limitation on #magicskill.

Magic path limitation (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=608898&page=1&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[Sombre]

It may or may not be peculiar to my system, but other people are reporting something which sounds the same. Amhazair for example in a couple of threads on the mod forum, he also mentions Lolomo was seeing the same bug.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=d3smm&Number=525736&page=0 &view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=13

And no, I'm not confused about #custommagic for the holy path. I'm aware that's never worked. I'm saying all of my mod nations have lost all magic paths on all recruitables, both those using the straightforward #magicskill and those using #custommagic. I haven't changed anything about any of them - this has occured purely with the patch being applied.

I just tested it now and things appeared to be working normally,.. at firzt,...

First I tried just Skaven - worked fine.
Then Skaven + Ogres - worked fine.
Skaven + Ogres + Avernum - fine.
Arga + Skaven + Ogres + Avernum - fine.
Arga + Skaven + Ogres + Avernum + CBM - fine.


But when loaded in this order,...

CBM
Skaven
Streamers and standards
arga dis
ogres
avernum


Then vanilla nation mages have magic, but none of the mod nation mages do. It therefore appears to be another overflow bug of some kind.

[Amhazair]

Well, I never claimed to understand about modding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

After reading this I tried to load the different nations without other mods, and they did indeed work well for me too, so I'm guessing (but it's only guessing) that Sombre appears to be arriving to a plausible conclusion.

[Edi]

If there is a hard limit, then what probably triggers this is all the new mages in the patch, because there are quite a few. It may also have something to do with vanilla unit numbers stretching into space that used to be available to modding.

Can you get me a count of #magicskill and #custommagic commands from those mods? Having numbers could help solve this problem faster.

[Sombre]

I doubt it's anything like a unit ID conflict. Those look completely different and probably wouldn't change depending on what order the mods were loaded in.

I find it hard to believe there's a hard limit on the number of different unit types with magic. It seems more like some other limit is being reached (like the description or sprite limits we often used to run into) and this is somehow causing mage paths to vanish.

I don't have time to make a count right now, someone else is welcome to though.

[MaxWilson]

Wasn't there a poster a few weeks ago who posted that he gave his pretender 100 magic randoms (because the game wouldn't let him set #magicskill over 10 directly) and it made all the randoms on other mages vanish? Post#608898 (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=608898)

-Max

[Sombre]

Great find MaxWilson. If there is a hard limit on randoms it would definitely have been brought closer by the addition of three new nations. Though in this case /all/ the paths are vanishing, not just the randoms. This might suggest that there's a hard limit to the total amount of magic paths,.. as unbelievable as that seems -scratches head-

[Wick]

deleted very belated reply

[NTJedi]

Probably not as important as the bug Sombre found, yet I did confirm the following bug for priest magic:
/threads/images/Graemlins/Bug.gif

#custommagic 32768 <chance> doesn't work.

[Zeldor]

I have really crazy script order violation.

My Couatl scripted to Communion Master, 4x Astral Healing, spells decided to break script on turn 3 and cast Vortex of Returning!!

Caster's army was easily winning [0 losses], there were about 30-40 enemies left against about 800 of mine troops. There was Darkness and Storm in the battle but he should have plenty of other spells to choose from [at least soul slay, enslave mind...].

P.S. What is the command to view spellcasting details in debug mode?

[Endoperez]

Zeldor said:
I have really crazy script order violation.

My Couatl scripted to Communion Master, 4x Astral Healing, spells decided to break script on turn 3 and cast Vortex of Returning!!

Caster's army was easily winning [0 losses], there were about 30-40 enemies left against about 800 of mine troops. There was Darkness and Storm in the battle but he should have plenty of other spells to choose from [at least soul slay, enslave mind...].

P.S. What is the command to view spellcasting details in debug mode?




Open log.txt in the main Dominions 3 folder to see details. That sounds very bad!

[Edi]

Sorry for my lack of response here lately. Endo was kind enough to post the custommagic bug in the beta forum bug thread. I'll also be adding it to the shortlist when I get around to updating it, so it will be visible shortly.

I'm just trying to beat a couple of functions into place first so we can have an actual working DB again. I just found out that the 3.15 version has some things horribly broken in it due to new columns having been added and messing up with displays.

[Endoperez]

Gadite Swordsman (1991) is LA Gath unit, desribed as a descendants of rebel humanbreds who oppose blood sacrifices. I got "A Gadite rebel has managed to sneak past your temple guard and set some of your blood slaves free." event as EA Tien Chi. The event should be restricted to LA only, or LA Abysia and/or Gath only.

[Zeldor]

Ok, here it goes:

com Nanauatzin cast spell (favspell Astral Healing) (mayusegems 1)
est. choices 76
comp_castspell: eval Fire Flies result -1
...
...
huge load of avaluations
...
...
...
Nanauatzin communion members 4
best Gift of Flight this far, 43 10 (5 pnts)
best Gift of Flight this far, 42 13 (7 pnts)
spellscore, Gift of Flight score 4 (boost 111 scorat 0)
Eval: Gift of Flight score 4 (fat 10)
comp_castspell: eval Gift of Flight result 4
looser spell Gift of Flight (score 4)
Nanauatzin communion members 4
castspell: cnr1440 spl683 (Vortex of Returning) vis6 x44 y15 spldmg1
Nanauatzin communion members 4
vis 6 xvis 3
Nanauatzin communion members 4
Drain communion 4 mbrs

[Taqwus]

Spell description states that the Zamzummite should die -- swapping places with the Malik.

However, the spell seems to inflict 'some' damage, but not Soul Slay/Petrify level -- I just had a Zamzummite cast it in a max Gift of Health dominion (+35hp = 70hp) but no items or heroic abilities, who survived with an affliction: likely if it did 35 damage, not so much if it did the 999 points that seems to be common for 'death' effects.

[Edi]

Disappearing random magics due to number of mods bug has been listed as fixed on the progress page.

[thejeff]

Zeldor:
What does the debug log show for Astral Healing?
It doesn't look like VoR should have overridden it unless Astral Healing couldn't be cast for some reason.

[Zeldor]

I won't put whole log for that caster, but it goes like that:

com Nanauatzin cast spell (favspell Astral Healing) (mayusegems 1)
est. choices 76
comp_castspell: eval Fire Flies result -1
...
...
Nanauatzin communion members 4
spellscore, Astral Healing score 0 (boost 105 scorat 0)
Eval: Astral Healing score 0 (fat 14)
comp_castspell: eval Astral Healing result 0
comp_castspell: No eval Antimagic, choices 76
comp_castspell: No eval Haste, choices 76
comp_castspell: No eval Poison Ward, choices 76
comp_castspell: eval Fire Fend result -1
comp_castspell: No eval Thunder Ward, choices 76
comp_castspell: No eval Winter Ward, choices 76
comp_castspell: eval Friendly Currents result -6
comp_castspell: No eval Quagmire, choices 76
comp_castspell: eval Undead Horde result -1
comp_castspell: eval Foul Vapors result -2
comp_castspell: No eval Heat from Hell, choices 76
Nanauatzin communion members 4
Not enough vis for Arrow Fend
...
...
...

And no more mentions of Astral Healing there. I will put whole file with what happened with that mage.

[thejeff]

The score zero has to mean Astral Healing couldn't be cast.
Maybe nobody was wounded?

Regardless, Vortex of Returning really shouldn't be cast unscripted. Nor should Returning.

[Zeldor]

Yeah, no one was wounded. I am not complaining that he did not cast Astral Healing but that he decided to choose Vortex of Returning. The game was already finished and I won, but if that happened in normal battle [that was outside of fort of only VP - imagine someone storming the only VP with few units and defending mage casting Vortex] it would be devastating. He had plenty of other spells to choose...

[Endoperez]

Zeldor said:
Yeah, no one was wounded. I am not complaining that he did not cast Astral Healing but that he decided to choose Vortex of Returning.



Yeah, it's been suggested that Vortex of Returning is made non-AI spell.

You still haven't posted the spellscore for Vortex, though. Could you just attach the relevant log file as a text attachment?

[Zeldor]

Here it goes.

[Endoperez]

Zeldor said:
Here it goes.



The second-highest result was for Body Ethereal (584), while Vortex got 695. I think the AI just calculated which spell would affect most people, and the first-turn-buff boost wasn't enough to give the top place to Body Ethereal.

[thejeff]

Monthly ritual Casters who pick up Old age afflictions that reduce their magic paths will continue to cast the ritual.

At least for one turn, I haven't played the next one yet.

A Crystal Mage casting Gnome Lore monthly picked up Mute and now only has 1E, but is still casting Gnome Lore this month.

I assume this is due to the spell being assigned before the old age afflictions are determined. If it's only this month it isn't too bad, if he can keep casting as long as I don't try to change his orders, that's more of an issue.


Edit: The next turn he stopped, so it's only a one turn problem.

[llamabeast]

Wow, the bug thread escaped from the front page! That has to be a good sign.

One from Wick on the Machaka thread:

863 Apostatic Warrior is stealth 0, probably should be 15 or 20 if he's an "able assassin".

[Edi]

Apostatic Warrior added. Also changed colorcode for fixed entries from green to darkgreen to spare my eyes. Looks much better now...

[Renojustin]

MA Atlantis' War Lobster failed to flee with the rest of its army when routed. It was in the current form (sans rider) and its morale was 14. Not mindless, either. Kinda sucked as that was the difference between taking the critical first sea province.

[Endoperez]

Renojustin said:
MA Atlantis' War Lobster failed to flee with the rest of its army when routed. It was in the current form (sans rider) and its morale was 14. Not mindless, either. Kinda sucked as that was the difference between taking the critical first sea province.



I think they go mad when riderless. Usually this means they attack friendlies, sometimes it means they do something useful.

[Edi]

Renojustin said:
MA Atlantis' War Lobster failed to flee with the rest of its army when routed. It was in the current form (sans rider) and its morale was 14. Not mindless, either. Kinda sucked as that was the difference between taking the critical first sea province.


Special hardcoded behavior, they attack nearest unit, whether friend or foe, until killed. The lobster does not survive the battle anyway, it's a tempsecondshape.

[Dedas]

Bug - it can snow in cave battlefield terrain.

[Maraxus]

The "Move and Patrol" command does not get canceled, if units get added to the commander, even if the units could not move this far.

[Edi]

Maraxus said:
The "Move and Patrol" command does not get canceled, if units get added to the commander, even if the units could not move this far.


Known bug, in the shortlist. It is one of the more odious exploits, which allows moving stratmove 1 units several provinces in one turn.

[Endoperez]

A resource-increasing event has no effect
I got the event "The local lord has something something slave labour, permanently increasing resources in the province" as on turn 2, as MA Ulm. I had exactly the same number of resources available as I had last turn.
1) The event bonus doesn't stack with Ulm resource bonus in forts.
2) The event doesn't give any resources at all.
3) The event doesn't give any resources on the turn it happens.

[Coldshard]

LA Pythium Reveler seems to have a much lower chance of gaining an extra magic path than the listed 20%. After recruiting nearly 100 of them I had 0 which had gained an extra nature or blood.

I'm not sure if this is a typo or a bug though.

[llamabeast]

I am skeptical of this last one, simply because I have had a fair few revelers with blood. Also the chance is 10%, not 20%, because half of the randoms will be nature.

[NTJedi]

I've also had revelers with blood.

[Wick]

The 1880 Reveler says it has a 20% NB random but only had 11 randoms (9N+4B) in 100 when tested. How big of a sample do we need for 95% confidence?

[Reay]

I had an assassination on my mirror imaged mage where the assassin had a poisoned dagger. The dagger did poison damage even after not doing any HP damage. The poison then caused HP damage and cancelled the mirror image.

I thought poison damage by melee weapons has to get through the armour before taking effect?

[MaxWilson]

There's a weird relationship between poison and armor. Sometimes you can cause HP damage without any poison, and apparently sometimes the opposite happens. My suspicion is that if the defense succeeds because of the shield parry, poison damage is not inflicted regardless of whether or not the attack blasts through the shield + armor Prot. Conversely, if defense does not succeed, poison damage IS inflicted regardless of whether or not it gets through armor Prot. I have not empirically tested this hypothesis though.

-Max

[Reay]

Strange, since I do not think my mage had any protection. Anyway perhaps secondaryeffect occurs if you succeed in hitting the unit even if no damage is done.

That is how missle combat works AFAIK. It was just that I read that it was different in melee in another thread.

[Edi]

Poison is known to be bugged in a couple of ways and not all of them are in the shortlist. I'll ask about it.

[ano]

Not a bug but still.
Alchemist of the Five Elements(1891) and Imperial Alchemist(1892) have almost identical sprites and can be differentiated by the black cap only. The cap is hardly seen normally and this causes problems in differentiating this two VERY different mages in combat as well as in commander list.

[lch]

Translation: Give the Imperial Alchemist a fancy new hat! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[ano]

Translation: Give the Imperial Alchemist a fancy new hat!


Not a bad idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Reay]

In the multiplayer game Fallacy I have seen two battles in sequential turns where the battle results have not matched the battle movie.

In one battle I lost 4-5 mages which clearly fled off the battlefield and should have ended up in my neighbouring province. Instead the were listed as dead in the battle report and were missing on the tactical map.

In the other battle, an Air Queen was clearly killed by Banefire but appeared in the neighbouring province the next turn.

These were both big battles so the results were important. The other player (Xietor) is seeing the same results as I am and is confused as well.

The turn is attached so all can witness. You can see the Queen of the Thunder is still in province 263.

[Edi]

Fleeing units may die instead of successfully retreating. I've seen that happen many times. The AQ thing is different. However, I am at work right now so can't review that file. Someone else with better expertise with the debugger could do it and we might get something useful out of it.

[thejeff]

Fleeing units can die? Even if you hold a neighboring province?
I'll believe you, but I've never seen it.

I'd assume both of those are battle the replay bug.

Edit: I'm also at work, but it would be interesting to see if these battles replay the same way for everyone.

[Reay]

Oops there is no map file is that ok? It is a bit big to post here anyway.

The battle is in Senextro.

I have never seen fleeing units die if there is a neighbouring province before.

[lch]

One doesn't need the original map image to view the battle reports, just any map image of the same name. No problem.

[Edi]

thejeff said:
Fleeing units can die? Even if you hold a neighboring province?
I'll believe you, but I've never seen it.

I'd assume both of those are battle the replay bug.


It probably is the battle replay bug in my opinion as well.

As for the retreating, I've seen it several times. AI mages dying when retreating from the battlefield in the most recent game Kaljamaha and I played and in LeafNosedBat Vanheim lost two Vanadrotts when his army retreated from my pretender. They ran off the field, but you see a small burst of blood if the retreating unit dies. That happened to those two and they were listed as killed in the battle report.

[thejeff]

Yeah, that happens when they're suffering from some delayed damage, poison, decay, something along those lines. The damage is applied when they retreat as if they'd stayed long enough for it all take effect. (I believe regen continues to counter it, as if they were still on the field)
They're reported as dead in the battle summary.

I think of that as dying on the field, not retreating so I didn't even think of it.

[Edi]

I've seen units burst in blood even when they did not have any delayed action damage going for them. For example, units with hit points left, no poison, no fire and no enemy units near them, run off the field, blood burst and reported as dead. If they had poison or fire, it'd actually run the series of numbers over the bloodburst to show the damage taken. Or so I have observed, though I cannot be 100% guaranteed of having understood things right.

[thejeff]

I think mercs show the same effect. And any units that don't survive battles for one reason or another (battle summons, some second forms, etc) might as well?

Some types of damage don't show the little floating numbers, but I can't think of any that have lasting effects.

[Reay]

Well I did not keep the turn where the mages fled and died. They definitely did not have any poison or delayed damage etc. I did not see any blood bursts and there was no message saying "This unit has died by retreating into an enemy province".

I forgot the turn has a password, if you want to see the turn where the Air Queen seems to die just PM me for it.

[Reay]

I checked the debug log file of the report. The AQ definitely dies to banefire, you can even see the line where it calls the female death sound right after the 51 damage to Queen of Thunder.

Also, some Tartarians that were killed in the battle report apparently survived.

This is the second turn in a row I have had discrepancies in the battle. I think it happened earlier in the game too after the last patch was applied. It kind of makes the battle reports a bit useless.

Are there any other people getting incorrect battle reports since the latest patch? Xietor says there has been a few instances and maybe it has increased in frequency since the latest patch.